Thanks for your input. The tape is confusing because I got the impression that Van Nuys told him to get a new squawk code from Socal approach. Up until that point it seemed like a normal flight but afterwards it got confusing.
Kobe Killed in Helicopter Crash
- Thread starter glennhoffmania
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I didn’t quite read that whole thread the way you did. It seemed like whatever the initial misunderstanding was, Flanagan went out of her way to say insulting and tropey things about Sonmez.
Also, the WP of all papers should take death threats against its writers seriously.
Just watched PTI, which devoted the entire show to Kobe. Nary a peep about the rape allegation. Complete fawn-a-thon. Laughable. Not expecting it to be the main focus of coverage, although I certainly understand those that do think it blocks out anything else he did, but to not even mention it is pathetic. I guess endless reading of glowing tweets is going to be the focus of ESPNs approach.
Personally I couldn't care less about whether they play or don't play, but I'm curious as to why this is surprising to anyone. They play in the same city, in the same building. Seems to me that logistically this would be the easiest game on the schedule to re-schedule. As for the ratings, what in postponing the game changes that?
I mean, ESPN made millions off Kobe, I'm sure. Promoted him endlessly. Partnered with brands that did as well.
The finger in the air clearly shows that nothing but hagiography will be tolerated.
Every time it seems like things are progressing, we get a nice fat reminder that they're not. Maybe in another 50 years.
I don't have a dog in the fight, but neither of them look good. Somnez could end up being dead right, and the WP would still not like it because of Kobe's status.
The initial misunderstanding was Flanagan’s disparaging remarks (first on NPR, but continued in various forums) about Sonmez’s allegations that she herself was raped by a male colleague, Jon Kaiman. Other women made similar allegations, and after an investigation, Kaiman was fired by the LA Times. This, apparently, wasn’t sufficient for Flanagan and her fellow travelers in rape denialism and general young women tut-tutting like Emily Yoffe and Christina Hoff Sommers, so Flanagan went on NPR and said a bunch of misinformed stuff about the case. She followed that up by going on Hoff-Sommers’ podcast where they laughed about how the allegations were really founded in the women’s desire to keep Kaiman’s attention. Just like Fatal Attraction (seriously, they said that). Then she admitted she hadn’t really done any prep or research for the NPR interview wherein she accused Sonmez of making up rape allegations.
Anyway, I had read about it a while back but just realized that the suspended journalist is herself a public survivor of sexual violence.
If you want to start down the Jon Kaiman rabbit hole that started this: https://www.cjr.org/criticism/felicia-sonmez-metoo.php
Ok, thank you. That’s how I read it, but I don’t have Twitter and it’s really hard for me to understand to read threads on it.
But, yeah, Somnez seemed like she was just standing up for herself against someone who was claiming she was hysterical and jilted she didn’t get flowers the next day.
Bill Simmons and Chris Ryan did a 30-minute podcast on Kobe's death and hardly mentioned the rape allegations other than some brief allusions to "what happened in Colorado" and "Kobe's off-court issues."
That tops the other Ringer podcast that literally doesn’t even mention it. For whatever reason, a day of consuming Kobe-centric media has given me a greater appreciation for how rape and sexual assault are minimized in our society in a way that Weinstein, Kavanaugh, etc. have not.
During my years as a member at SoSH you've not only dropped some of the funniest stuff here, but also some of the most serious and poignant posts that I've read. Regarding the highlighted, I have an observation and I'm thinking this is something that may have crossed your mind as well. Given the setting here, Los Angeles, Hollywood, Tinsel Town...in some ways the birthplace of the #metoo movement, how fucked up does it feel to see the adulation bestowed upon Bryant by the non sport celebrity community? I get to a certain extent that the passage of time plays into this and in the moment, microphone in face, the first thought may not turn towards Bryant being a rapist. But, to this point I've not really seen any thing that remotely resembles any celebrities asking us that when we remember Bryant we put the whole of the man's life in perspective. Cosby, Weinstein, Spacy, etc...all rightfully shamed and ostracized, yet Kobe is elevated.
ATH and Highly Questionable both mentioned the “rape allegations”. Perhaps a bit stronger than that, I wasn’t paying a ton of attention.
I knew I tagged the right guys, thanks to you both for the insight and explanation.
That’s my read on it as well, and I should note (again, if my memory serves here) that this all came in the wake of a piece in Reason magazine that was part doubt-casting for the (multiple) allegations, and part hasn’t-he-suffered-enough redemption tour for Kaiman (he lost his prestigious job! he’s living at home with his parents!), so it’s not too hard to see how her experiences may have informed her reaction to the ubiquitous Kobe adulation.
Just downloaded this and was planning to listen tonight. Thanks for saving a half hour of my life.
How pathetic.
Just to clarify, I wasn’t in anyway trying to minimize it with that wording. I think he very likely committed rape, and his legal team absolutely employed disgusting smear tactics and character assassination against his accuser.
Not for nothing, but Simmons was definitely pushing a Pierce for Kobe trade shortly after the rape.
View: https://twitter.com/DylanByers/status/1221947525277671426?s=20
Dylan Byers
@DylanByers
New from @NYTimes: Washington Post executive editor Marty Baron emailed @feliciasonmez this shortly before she was suspended: "Felicia. A real lack of judgment to tweet this. Please stop. You’re hurting this institution by doing this.”
Dylan Byers
@DylanByers
New from @NYTimes: Washington Post executive editor Marty Baron emailed @feliciasonmez this shortly before she was suspended: "Felicia. A real lack of judgment to tweet this. Please stop. You’re hurting this institution by doing this.”
Marciano has it right with regards to ESPN - as an aside its jarring watching women like Rachel Nichols, Ramona Shelburne and Cassidy Hubbarth sing Bryant's praises while thinking that they have to be somewhat conflicted parroting the party line. However that is another topic - Kobe was great for the brand.
As far as Simmons and all the other glowing content out there, look no further than their audiences. ESPN/PTI covers the older boomer demographic while Simmons gets the Gen X-ers & millennials and the rest of the basketball-centric content universe caters to the latter group as well as Gen Z-ers.
If you are an older person, you might remember the case but you may recall all of the questions about the victim's sexual history or about her ulterior motives. Part of that is the defense's PR spin and the other part of it is a function of coming of age in a time where it was still completely acceptable to view women more as objects in certain circles (I realize this still exists but its definitely changed imo but then again, I am a man so that is just my perception).
As for the other audiences, people who are unfamiliar with the basketball universe simply cannot grasp what Kobe Bryant means to NBA/hoops fans. Jordan or LeBron might be considered the GOAT, but Kobe, whose career paralleled the growth of sports content on the internet, was the epitome of cool. If you were a basketball player coming up in the early aughts or a young kid who loved the sport, he was, without question, the player everyone emulated. All highlights started and ended with him. I also suspect that not an insignificant number of these people also think there were mitigating circumstances around Bryant's rape of the women or simply aren't old enough to remember the case in any detail, if at all.
I will conclude by saying I don't think many people in these groups are going to be convinced that Kobe is anything other than a hero. I do think Marciano is incorrect in that while this battle is lost, the culture has changed and those who are victimized now have more options than they did in 2003. At the very least, the hope is that were a similar situation to arise today, a victim wouldn't simply be shouted down and silenced by someone who has a wealth of resources at hand.
As far as Simmons and all the other glowing content out there, look no further than their audiences. ESPN/PTI covers the older boomer demographic while Simmons gets the Gen X-ers & millennials and the rest of the basketball-centric content universe caters to the latter group as well as Gen Z-ers.
If you are an older person, you might remember the case but you may recall all of the questions about the victim's sexual history or about her ulterior motives. Part of that is the defense's PR spin and the other part of it is a function of coming of age in a time where it was still completely acceptable to view women more as objects in certain circles (I realize this still exists but its definitely changed imo but then again, I am a man so that is just my perception).
As for the other audiences, people who are unfamiliar with the basketball universe simply cannot grasp what Kobe Bryant means to NBA/hoops fans. Jordan or LeBron might be considered the GOAT, but Kobe, whose career paralleled the growth of sports content on the internet, was the epitome of cool. If you were a basketball player coming up in the early aughts or a young kid who loved the sport, he was, without question, the player everyone emulated. All highlights started and ended with him. I also suspect that not an insignificant number of these people also think there were mitigating circumstances around Bryant's rape of the women or simply aren't old enough to remember the case in any detail, if at all.
I will conclude by saying I don't think many people in these groups are going to be convinced that Kobe is anything other than a hero. I do think Marciano is incorrect in that while this battle is lost, the culture has changed and those who are victimized now have more options than they did in 2003. At the very least, the hope is that were a similar situation to arise today, a victim wouldn't simply be shouted down and silenced by someone who has a wealth of resources at hand.
Was just coming here to post that Burneko piece, it's making the rounds on the socials.
Of all the articles openly discussing Kobe's dark side, that one will be more widely read than any of the others I've seen mentioned. I wish it were less of a "scolding the readers" kind of tone, but it reserves its maximum harshness for to its main subject. The ex-Deadspin is very strong still in him.
If you're a Kobe hater, that article may crystallize some of the stuff you always believed about him. If you're a Kobe fanboy, I'd advise clicking elsewhere.
Of all the articles openly discussing Kobe's dark side, that one will be more widely read than any of the others I've seen mentioned. I wish it were less of a "scolding the readers" kind of tone, but it reserves its maximum harshness for to its main subject. The ex-Deadspin is very strong still in him.
If you're a Kobe hater, that article may crystallize some of the stuff you always believed about him. If you're a Kobe fanboy, I'd advise clicking elsewhere.
What was Baron suggesting was “hurting this institution”? That Sonmez was speaking ill of the dead by linking to an old article about Kobe’s rape? Or posting the email (and email address) of a death threat sent to her? If it’s the former, that’s ridiculous – she’s a journalist and it’s literally part of her job. If the latter, it would seem to be more a technicality—“We have a policy of not sharing readers’ personal information”—than some grievous doxxing moment and hardly worthy of a suspension. I mean, I gather this was a death threat.
Baron isn’t a dope. I don’t understand this.
Baron isn’t a dope. I don’t understand this.
My Uber driver today called it a cheating scandal. I corrected him and he was OK with it though I was the customer and hence, I'm right.
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Just want to say that I think it's absolutely insane that so many people online are blowing up social media with the idea that they nba should make Kobe the new logo, no idea how they can be so tone deaf.
Also props to everyone in this thread for discussing the topic better than 99% of the internet (like seems to happen with every major news story). I feel terrible for the families of everyone on board, and for everyone in this thread that's had to experience sexual assault and have to watch the media fawn over a great player, but clearly very flawed human.
Also props to everyone in this thread for discussing the topic better than 99% of the internet (like seems to happen with every major news story). I feel terrible for the families of everyone on board, and for everyone in this thread that's had to experience sexual assault and have to watch the media fawn over a great player, but clearly very flawed human.
One article I read seemed to indicate that Baron was discussing a particular tweet that he referenced in his email and suggested it was the original tweet. We will see, I think.
If he was referencing the original tweet then the idea it was for posting emails is a post hoc smear and worse than the suspension, to me. If she was suspended because the Post want to ride the bullshit honor the dead nonsense, fucking own it. Don’t invent a reason after the fact.
So, in a year in which one of their own reporters was murdered, the Post bullies a sex abuse survivor into silence as she receives numerous death threats.
I predict there is going to be some serious handwringing and analysis about who was on the right side and who was on the wrong side of this thing. What happened to Sonmez sucks, but at least it will be a catalyst. The story writes itself. We celebrate Kobe and try to squelch the rape in his past, further marginalizing victims of sexual violence, and when one of those victims tries to point that out, the Washington Post of all papers censors and disciplines her.
It is still early days. This isn’t going away. The Post shit itself. In a very public and humiliating way that cannot stand scrutiny. And you don’t fuck with reporters doing what they believe it is their job to do unless you want a phalanx of them circling the wagons and giving you a public colonoscopy. The email from Baron confirms what happened, and, in the end, the idea that tweeting the names of those who threaten reporters is some sacrosanct line not to cross is not going to fly anyway. It will take about 10 seconds for people to tumble to the problem that they made her take down all her tweets, not just that one.
This interview with Lindsay Gibbs, who wrote the Daily Beast article in 2016, is well done.
https://slate.com/culture/2020/01/kobe-bryant-rape-allegation-coverage.html
https://slate.com/culture/2020/01/kobe-bryant-rape-allegation-coverage.html
Through the parent only lens this got me.
I’m a “girl dad.”
View: https://twitter.com/msmallmon/status/1222011186419589121?s=21
I’m a “girl dad.”
View: https://twitter.com/msmallmon/status/1222011186419589121?s=21
Thanks for posting this. I’ve read several times in this thread how women broadcasters saying nice things about Kobe are surely towing the company line and man that does NOT seem to be the case, at all. Robin Roberts, Rachel Nichols, Diana Taurasi, I mean I could go on and on but every single woman reporter or athlete I’ve seen comment on Kobe in the last couple of days seem to truly genuinely have liked him despite his past.
I have been lurking for over 15 years and will occasionally post in BBTL. Of course, I came to this forum to find information about the crash after I heard about it yesterday afternoon about 4pm EST. By then I think the thread was around 4 pages and moving rapidly. The discussions have been raw but awe-inspiring. I have read every post and link.. I want to thank the posters that were brave enough to take a stand and bring up the elephant in the room; the men that shared their thoughts about sexual assault and for sharing their personal stories; and special thanks to the mods that keep it all on track so we could have a serious in-depth conversation about something that has to be discussed for us to evolve as a society.
The thing is this, years ago during the Curt Schilling lion post incident, you called another poster "ivory tower" not knowing he was a veteran with no connection to academia.You were informed, and you were surprised. Now, in this case, well, it's not that you're wrong. In fact:
View: https://twitter.com/disneycpt/status/1221954109466644483?s=21
But what doesn't seem to concern you as why, or to whom you might be speaking on an important and sensitive issue. But since you brought this up:
You should learn who you're speaking to so that you might not keep making the same disrespectful mistakes.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/07/magazine/sexual-assault-marine-corps.html
This is fair - I agree with you that most of these commentators, women or men, appear to have genuine respect if not adoration for Kobe the player and the person. That said, this thread and some social media posts aside, discussing Bryant's rape case is just not acceptable in the broader discourse.
I think some of that is people trying to be respectful given that his death and that of his daughter and the others has a broader impact. However it also feels like there is some dissonance at work here where some of these commentators know its part of their job to raise this issue and may even feel compelled to do so out of a moral obligation - but they cannot because it will cost them in terms of their careers or simply anger those around them.
In this saturated information age, when hagiography/mythology takes hold, its a pretty powerful force.
I’m also a girl dad, of a budding athlete (softballl).
I share the sentiment re girls are awesome, and I understand why the woman telling this story was moved by her encounter with Kobe.
I don’t doubt that Kobe’s sentiment was sincere. He seemed to live his daughters dearly.
The next rhetorical move would seem to be to say that you can’t square this with his rape history, ie hiw could someone who loves his daughters so much do such a horrible thing to someone else’s daughter.
But I’m not doing that, because it plays into the whole thing of “what if it was your daughter” or “what if you had a daughter” that is thrown at people who aren’t sensitive to the horror of sexual assault, ie Blasey Ford/Kavanaugh. Which I detest because you don’t or shouldn’t need a daughter to have basic human empathy for someone who’s been hurt by another person.
My thing here is to push back on the idea that Kobe is more laudable because he was such a great father *of girls * as if that’s somehow rarer or more difficult or something . You love your kids of whatever gender because you love your kids. I don’t get a medal for loving my daughter so much snd taking her to softball because she’s a girl and that’s more remarkable than if I did the same for a 9 year old boy.
I'm commentating on a European Basketball Champions League game today (between a Hungarian club and an Italian club), and I've just received an email from my coordinating producer which says that this message has been passed along to clubs and onsite personnel at all of the games taking place today and tomorrow:
I'm really wondering what to say in the aftermath of this tribute. There are a lot of things I'm thinking I'd want to say, some of which might get me removed from future basketball commentary assignments; given that my game is very far removed from Kobe and the NBA, it's more likely I'll just reference Kobe's Italian connections and - in the context of a brief appraisal of his career - allude to the fact that Bryant's legacy is darker and more complicated than all of the glowing tributes which have come out in the past 48 hours might make it seem.
Great post. I think it’s possible that him having daughters after his trial helped him mature and see things through a different lens. Does it forgive him? No. He should be held accountable; the victim having to watch the mass worldwide adulation has to be excruciating.
I know that most mods on forums are white knight liberals, being that employed Conservatives don't have time to play on message board forums all day (hey, that's a perk for you lefties, getting a check in the mail without getting off of your ass).
Everything I posted was factually. I'm sorry that some of you haven't reached puberty yet, and the world is still black and white to you. Don't worry, someday you'll grow up.
Most of you on this forum are great, even those that I disagree with on baseball or other issues. But the select few who seem to want to control the conversation, those are the people who I have a problem with. It's becoming an issue on most forums, like twitter and facebook. I've bee online since 1996, and while there were flame wars and trolls back then, everyone was given an opportunity to speak freely. You seem to want to erase any history or speech that dents your bubble, it's why you're trying to have statues removed, people fired from their jobs for tweets, etc, in the belief that erasing the past will change it. It won't.
But,alas, it's 2020, and the far left can't have that. They not only lost at life, they're trying to drag everyone down with them. I know, I have a fat 30 something cousin who got his wife pregnant, neither holding a job, and they moved back to NY from Ohio to reap the benefits of being professional leeches.
Judging from the reaction to the the Felicia Sonmez suspension, I'm glad that the majority are still decent people who know that there is a time and a place for bringing up the past upon someone's tragic death. The same people who called al-Baghdadi 'a scholar' and
praised Soleimani after his assassination, just because they can't stand Trump.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chmWh2k7pGw&t=175s
For those here trying to make it about themselves, your being sexually assaulted (though we're only hearing one side) doesn't make you an expert as my totaling two vehicles doesn't make me a forensic scientist on Dale Earnhardt's crash
I know this post won't stay up long, you can't have dissent in your safe space. Go ahead and delete my account, that'll really change my life
Everything I posted was factually. I'm sorry that some of you haven't reached puberty yet, and the world is still black and white to you. Don't worry, someday you'll grow up.
Most of you on this forum are great, even those that I disagree with on baseball or other issues. But the select few who seem to want to control the conversation, those are the people who I have a problem with. It's becoming an issue on most forums, like twitter and facebook. I've bee online since 1996, and while there were flame wars and trolls back then, everyone was given an opportunity to speak freely. You seem to want to erase any history or speech that dents your bubble, it's why you're trying to have statues removed, people fired from their jobs for tweets, etc, in the belief that erasing the past will change it. It won't.
But,alas, it's 2020, and the far left can't have that. They not only lost at life, they're trying to drag everyone down with them. I know, I have a fat 30 something cousin who got his wife pregnant, neither holding a job, and they moved back to NY from Ohio to reap the benefits of being professional leeches.
Judging from the reaction to the the Felicia Sonmez suspension, I'm glad that the majority are still decent people who know that there is a time and a place for bringing up the past upon someone's tragic death. The same people who called al-Baghdadi 'a scholar' and
praised Soleimani after his assassination, just because they can't stand Trump.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chmWh2k7pGw&t=175s
For those here trying to make it about themselves, your being sexually assaulted (though we're only hearing one side) doesn't make you an expert as my totaling two vehicles doesn't make me a forensic scientist on Dale Earnhardt's crash
I know this post won't stay up long, you can't have dissent in your safe space. Go ahead and delete my account, that'll really change my life
What a miserable person you must be.
I hope you find something in life that gives you some comfort.
Mods: it’s not my board to run, but i think this post should stay up. The discussion of the issues in this thread is incomplete without this perspective, which informs the views and actions of a certain % of the public.
I dunno. It’s a pretty crappy post that trivializes the experiences of rape survivors on this board while bringing in V&N elements to a thread that doesn’t need it.
This Kobe matter isn’t a liberal vs. conservative matter so it’s weird to tie that together with peoples’ opinions of Kobe. If the post stays, we’re going to see a SoSH pile on that ends the quality of this thread.
We absolutely need to consider opposite perspectives on these issues but you can make them in a respectful way. He/she didn’t.
Leaving this up as an example of what not to do. It’s a negative example not because it represents a minority POV in this discussion, but because it attacks other posters.
Also, I like to signal my liberal virtue whilst sipping my morning latte, and I couldn’t do that if I deleted the post.