Joe Maddon to become Cubs manager (10/29)
- Thread starter soxhop411
- Start date
Oh shit. Well played. The pieces are coming into place.Lowrielicious said:Has this been discussed yet?
One Red Seat said:
This. I don't begrudge Maddon jumping from the Rays and going for a big payday at this point in his career, but that payday was always going to be waiting for him if he joined ESPN or MLBN and started the 2015 season on TV. Instead, he probably screwed over Rick Renteria's chances of ever managing another game in the major leagues. Not cool at all, especially for a guy who should know better than most what Renteria went through to finally get his chance with Chicago.
soxhop411 said:
This is very different than what happened with Theo. He resigned, but the Sox still held his rights. Maddon did not resign - he terminated his contract.
Given that Maddon was not under contract to the Rays when he was hired, I would say there will be no ruling of tampering and no punishment.
Rays would have to prove that the Cubs and Maddon were in discussions about this hiring while he was still employed by Tampa.
YTF said:
Or that Maddon's agent, Alan Nero, who is based in Chicago, had a late-night meeting with a guy in a gorilla suit in a quiet Wrigleyville pub prior to Joe deciding to opt out.
Statement from Theo.
http://m.cubs.mlb.com/news/article/100210426/in-pursuit-of-maddon-cubs-dismiss-renteria
Translation: Managing a crappy Cubs team for a year is going to improve his reputation. He deserved to come back, but we are going to fire him. He deserved better, but we're not going to give it to him.
Pretty solid statement from Theo about firing RR. They were, in fact, keeping RR apprised of the situation regularly. They also went out of their way to make clear their alleged timeline re: talking to Maddon (i.e., it was after he became a free agent).
Edit: Typed too slowly...
Edit: Typed too slowly...
I don't think that was a solid statement, I think that reads like what it was--a crappy thing to do. Kind of solidified my feeling that they treated Renteria a bit less-than-professionally. They did keep him updated, at least.
Plus, why couldn't Renteria be the next Joe Maddon? Especially if he was so great and "didn't deserve" to be fired? I thought Theo was the guy who found the next Joe Maddons, not the guy who just throws money at the shiney toys coming down the pike.
edit--someone else mentioned it earlier, but how do they get around not interviewing a minority candidate here? I'm sure they have a loophole they jumped through, just curious if anyone could shed light on that...
Plus, why couldn't Renteria be the next Joe Maddon? Especially if he was so great and "didn't deserve" to be fired? I thought Theo was the guy who found the next Joe Maddons, not the guy who just throws money at the shiney toys coming down the pike.
edit--someone else mentioned it earlier, but how do they get around not interviewing a minority candidate here? I'm sure they have a loophole they jumped through, just curious if anyone could shed light on that...
Theo had proven his douchebaggery numerous times. The Gorilla suit fiasco. The jumping ship to the Cubs while still under contract with Boston and now firing a guy after just one year in order to hire "the smartest manager in baseball history" (TM)
JohntheBaptist said:
I think what we will see is the shammiest of sham interviews with a minority "candidate," followed by an "interview" with Maddon. It won't pass the smell test, and it shouldn't, but all they've done here is fire Renteria. Everyone knows Maddon is picking out the furniture. It's a gambling in Casablanca moment
I fail to see how replacing a manager under contract with a better option that became available makes Theo a douchebag. Would you be saying the same thing about a GM who signs a better first baseman and then trades away the incumbent who was under contract? Theo's obligation to his organization is to put the best team together he can, whether that comes from upgrading coaches or players. It was an awkward situation due to the timing of Maddon becoming available, but it seems like Theo (and Hoyer) handled it about as well as possible.
Dewy4PrezII said:
Well, hang on... the gorilla suit was the direct result of the Dentist having CHB write a story about how all the credit for the 2004 team should go to LL while the team was dicking around with his next contract. And I'm not sure when leaving one company to take a promotion to work for another became "douchebaggery." You've never interviewed for another job while employed by someone else?
However, I agree that firing Renteria is tough to defend, particularly since I'm not convinced Maddon is going to flourish in a different (bigger city, more media, skeptical fans) environment. But Theo has pushed all his chips into the middle of the table for this season -- he told the fans and media at the end of last year that the Cubs would be contenders this year -- so he needs to do everything he can to make that happen. I'll add that Renteria's in-game strategy was not universally lauded last year. Of course, a few mistakes in their first years didn't cost Mattingly, Ausmus, Matheny, etc., their jobs, so that's not really a sufficient excuse.
Edit: I'll bet you $100 the "minority candidate" they interviewed to fulfill the requirement is Renteria. They had their choice of retaining RR or hiring Maddon. Their choice was to hire Maddon. Not sure you need to interview a minority candidate in that scenario, but maybe I'm wrong.
derekson said:
Just MHO, I don't think it makes him a douchebag--but it does give lie to a lot of Theo mythology. This isn't some crafty and ultimately shrewd move--this is going back on a major organizational decision less than a year later for no good reason other than the Flavor of the Week just became free. The circumstances for a 1B in that situation and a manager are much, much different, too.
It's one of those things--there's nothing wrong with it per se, but to me, it ain't a good look.
Also, @E5Yaz--I think you're 100% right, but considering the statement mentions Maddon specifically and seems to imply it is basically a done deal, that would be particularly odious. Anyway, hopefully they get some flak for it, but I think you nailed it.
JohntheBaptist said:
100% agree. You can't write things like "He deserved better." Just own the move.
Yeah, this sucks, but Theo had to so what he had to, ruthless though that is. As long as we don't hear Maddon keep up with his "classier than thou" act, for he is in effect stealing somebody else's job.
I get why Theo did this - he's going to spend a ton of money on big-name free agents, and with that I'm sure there's an expectation from Ricketts to be competitive as soon as possible. If I was a Cubs fan, I'd probably be thrilled with this move. That being said, though, he probably kneecapped Renteria's chances of ever managing again in the majors. These jobs are hard enough to get for a baseball lifer like Renteria, and now he's probably going to be considered damaged goods no matter what spin Theo and Jed throw out there. I hope they give him a nice severance check on the way out the door.
JohntheBaptist said:
Renteria could be the next Joe Maddon in the future but he is not Joe Madden now. Joe Madden turned around Tampa Bay in two years and Tampa Bay was in a lot worse shape than the Cubs are now. Madden is the kind of manager you want if you are looking to make a run. Renteria simply is an unknown.
This would be like people getting upset that the Red Sox were able to trade Mookie Bettes for Mike Trout.
You have to go for what is going to give you the best chance to win. Renteria was given a bad situation and didn't do much with it.
Edit - The pitching on the Cubs was atrocious last year.
I think Renteria will land on his feet. There are several openings out there, and at least Theo's axe fell in a timely manner. Also, given the circumstances, Renteria is hardly dated goods. Everyone knows why he got let go, and I think the marketplace understands.
Think of it this way; Would Renteria be "damaged goods" if he and Maddon were the two finalists for a job, and he got beat out by Maddon? That's kind of what this situation is...
Think of it this way; Would Renteria be "damaged goods" if he and Maddon were the two finalists for a job, and he got beat out by Maddon? That's kind of what this situation is...
TomRicardo said:
I don't think its like Betts/ Trout because that is a clearly quantifiable situation. There's no way to know if Renteria is "Joe Maddon now" just like there was no way to know if Joe Maddon was Joe Maddon when TB hired him, or if he'll be the Joe Maddon we saw in TB in Chicago. Those are all unknowns, moreso than I think you're allowing. It feels like following hype because the new guy seems like he'd be better even though the guy you have was The Guy this time last year.
I get the impulse and I don't have a problem if they're sure he's their guy--I think teams shouldn't worry about hurting feelings in getting their guy. That being said, chasing hype that desperately isn't exactly a sound strategy either. I think you're overrating Maddon's achievements, how clearly transferrable they are to the new situation with new management, and the value of giving someone like Renteria the opportunity to be the guy you hired him to be.
Maddon announcement is Monday
http://espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/story/_/id/11797575/chicago-cubs-fire-manager-rick-renteria-one-season
.
http://espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/story/_/id/11797575/chicago-cubs-fire-manager-rick-renteria-one-season
JohntheBaptist said:
It's not like Theo's chasing Maddon because he's the flavor of the month, though. As the Sox ownership reminded us repeatedly during the 2011 managerial search, Maddon was the runner-up in the search that netted Tito, so Maddon's been on Theo's radar for a decade or more.
cannonball 1729 said:
Sure--I'm not saying there's not a good reason to want to hire Joe Maddon. Not at all. But he's the flavor of the month because he's available when you don't have a vacancy.
Honestly, in the end, the Cubs have to do what they have to do, I get it. Maybe my issue was mostly with the statement.
And I'll up it to 100 again. Between how they tampered with Theo, probably tampered with Maddon, and a few of the biggest douche bags I know being hardcore Cub fans, I'm ready for another century of Cub misery.gryoung said:
And for starters, I hope Lester spurns them and they get stuck with James Shields on a 6/$126 contract.
I won't make any excuses for the way Steve Bartman was treated because it sucks when someone is unfairly turned into a scapegoat by a portion of a fan base. Thankfully that has never happened anywhere else.
Anyway, I agree the treatment of Renteria is unfair. It's pretty lame for the very people making the decisions to then say he deserved to be treated better. Well then why didn't you treat him better? That part leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Anyway, I agree the treatment of Renteria is unfair. It's pretty lame for the very people making the decisions to then say he deserved to be treated better. Well then why didn't you treat him better? That part leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
I like Maddon. I'd be very happy if he was the manager of the Red Sox. Good for Theo and the Cubs. Excellent hire. They should be very good for a long time with those guys at the helm and a vast talent pool at their disposal. Oh, and tons of cash too.
The only thing they owe Renteria is the money on his contract, which he will get. Maddon became available out of nowhere and Theo wanted him and got him. This is Major League Baseball not Little League.
Blundatola said:
I cannot find a link, but I remember reading a story in the Globe back in 1987 of a guy who trashed Bob Stanley's son's bike and explained to the kid, "Your dad's a bum." I doubt that's the only thing of the sort that happened.
It's a big ocean.
Personally I'm rooting for Theo and the Cubs. I don't blame him a bit for hiring Maddon. Anyone who witnessed the Cabin Mirror episode can't be surprised that Theo is going to bend the (unwritten) rules in his favor in an effort to win. Knowing that Maddon was the runner up when Tito was hired made this one of the least surprising moves ever. Next up - Jon Lester, it's time to add a horse.
For years, I felt the same way about Theo that so many others did. He was young, smart, earnest and a Sox fan through and through. You couldn't watch that 2004 celebration with Theo without imagining yourself in that spot. He was the GM Everyman.
I'll never forget my office at the time had an intern -- 19 y/o girl from CT who absolutely ADORED everything about him. It was a total crush and very representative to me of what Theo had become to the fanbase.
Then came the Gorilla Suit escapade. And after watching the whole bizarre press conference with Theo explaining why he was leaving and Henry sitting next to him, I walked over to this intern and asked her what she thought now. She shrugged and said:
"Eh. A little too much 'soul-searching' for my tastes."
After that, it didn't seem the same with Theo. Every move he made with the Sox and comment to the press seemed to have a bitter edge to it. It was no longer clear to me when he was toeing the party line or expressing his own views. He seemed miserable at times—even during good times like 2007—and I couldn't exactly understand why.
Yes, I'm sure Lucchino was hard to work under. Yes, I'm sure it was hard to balance his loyalty to the team he loved as a kid with the employer he chafed under. Even still, sending out feelers pre-collapse mid-2011 that he would be interested in leaving for the Cubs seemed distasteful at best and traitorous at worst.
Perhaps at the time, summer 2011, his thinking was that the team was in great shape and there was no better time to move on. And I don't begrudge anyone the right to "do what's right for their family."
But even still, after the collapse and with Tito being let go, the message it sent when Theo did jump ship was exactly the opposite of what we just read in his statement about Renteria: that one person was indeed more important than the organization.
So spare us the "good people deserve better" rhetoric. He and Maddon have both proven themselves to be mercenaries and opportunists. They deserve each other.
I'll never forget my office at the time had an intern -- 19 y/o girl from CT who absolutely ADORED everything about him. It was a total crush and very representative to me of what Theo had become to the fanbase.
Then came the Gorilla Suit escapade. And after watching the whole bizarre press conference with Theo explaining why he was leaving and Henry sitting next to him, I walked over to this intern and asked her what she thought now. She shrugged and said:
"Eh. A little too much 'soul-searching' for my tastes."
After that, it didn't seem the same with Theo. Every move he made with the Sox and comment to the press seemed to have a bitter edge to it. It was no longer clear to me when he was toeing the party line or expressing his own views. He seemed miserable at times—even during good times like 2007—and I couldn't exactly understand why.
Yes, I'm sure Lucchino was hard to work under. Yes, I'm sure it was hard to balance his loyalty to the team he loved as a kid with the employer he chafed under. Even still, sending out feelers pre-collapse mid-2011 that he would be interested in leaving for the Cubs seemed distasteful at best and traitorous at worst.
Perhaps at the time, summer 2011, his thinking was that the team was in great shape and there was no better time to move on. And I don't begrudge anyone the right to "do what's right for their family."
But even still, after the collapse and with Tito being let go, the message it sent when Theo did jump ship was exactly the opposite of what we just read in his statement about Renteria: that one person was indeed more important than the organization.
So spare us the "good people deserve better" rhetoric. He and Maddon have both proven themselves to be mercenaries and opportunists. They deserve each other.
If the Cubs don't win the World Series in the next couple of years will we begin to hear about "The Curse of Rick Renteria"?
further speculation on the tampering allegations...Rosenthal suggesting Rays would demand Baez or Russell as compensation....puh-leeze...
..Read more here:http://www.foxsports.com/mlb/story/joe-maddon-chicago-cubs-possible-deal-former-tampa-bay-rays-manager-feel-icky-deal-with-it-103114
Edit: suck at the hyperlinks....
..Read more here:http://www.foxsports.com/mlb/story/joe-maddon-chicago-cubs-possible-deal-former-tampa-bay-rays-manager-feel-icky-deal-with-it-103114
Edit: suck at the hyperlinks....
Also:
The whole Cubs enterprise feels like it was comprised via some version of tampering: Theo and Maddon, but also Jed and Rizzo who magically went from prize in the Gonzalez deal to bum who somehow fell into the Cubs' laps once the GMs from both of his former teams ended up with the Cubs.
Even if it's not illegal, it's bullshit.
The whole Cubs enterprise feels like it was comprised via some version of tampering: Theo and Maddon, but also Jed and Rizzo who magically went from prize in the Gonzalez deal to bum who somehow fell into the Cubs' laps once the GMs from both of his former teams ended up with the Cubs.
Even if it's not illegal, it's bullshit.
