But Turner isn't, and he's the Martinez replacement. You might want to slow down just a bit.Casas in the field is a disaster. Try again.
But Turner isn't, and he's the Martinez replacement. You might want to slow down just a bit.Casas in the field is a disaster. Try again.
Right now the Red Sox have the 14th best record in MLB - that's upper half. Obviously it feels terrible being in last place, but this division is absolutely stacked. They'd be in first place in the AL Central. Ridiculous.Last place in 3 out of 4 years. It's not 100% fair due to the division, of course.
It's also the perspective that they haven't put together a roster that anyone objectively thought was a true contender in any of the years. I know they made it within 2 games of the WS in 2021, and we have seen similar teams win titles like in 2013. But he's yet to put together a roster on paper that anyone thought was one of the top 5-8 teams in baseball heading into the year.
After 94 games no less! He should be put to death.Casas in the field is a disaster. Try again.
This is totally how things work in reality. Just let an agent hamstring your roster building because there's only one pitcher who will do the job for you.Maybe keep the offer on the table for the entire offseason and not bite off your nose to spite your face?
Cases may not be a great fielder, but he's been more than an adequate hitter since May 3:But Turner isn't, and he's the Martinez replacement. You might want to slow down just a bit.
My stance on Bloom is established, but this is a legitimate, honest question to you in the spirit of debate rather than internet snark: How many consecutive non-playoff seasons would it take to make you think Bloom had enough time and just couldn't get the job done? For example, if the Sox finish out of the playoffs (not losing records, not last in the division, but just out of the playoffs, meaning they cannot compete for a championship at all when the time the regular seasons ends) for the next 4 years, does Bloom still get the benefit of the doubt? You mentioned changing GMs every 5 years makes no sense and I can see the argument for that, but what would be the point at which you would say "maybe this isn't working?" And yes, I know they went to the ALCS in 21, I just mean going forward how many years would a team have to miss the playoffs to think that the GM had the ability to form relationships/do their thing, but their model (whatever it is) is broken?This x100. Bloom isn't a one-man show. It's I don't even know how many dozens of scouts and other functionaries running around Latin America and the Carribean and Japan and Korea. It's about building relationships on the ground that can give you an advantage when some super talented kid is available to sign. Or so we are told. Flipping GMs every five years seems antithetical to building the networks that lead to real, sustained success. If you really are rebuilding and looking for organizational advantages, you have to tune out all of the people playing yesterday's results on social media.
Has nothing at all to do with my post, but okay. Go Sox!Cases may not be a great fielder, but he's been more than an adequate hitter since May 3:
106 PA, 4 HR, 10 RBI, .264/.359/.473/.831
Turner has been worth 0.5 bWAR so far and was guaranteed 2x as much total $$ as JD, right? He’s hitting 256/337/401. Since 2017, his OPS has gone 945, 924, 881, 860, 832, 788, 738.But Turner isn't, and he's the Martinez replacement. You might want to slow down just a bit.
And if come February he signs somewhere else, and the pickings are slim on the market, where do they go? They can't wait around forever for one guy to decide that their offer is pretty good after all. There's an expression involving eggs and baskets that probably applies.Maybe keep the offer on the table for the entire offseason and not bite off your nose to spite your face?
Turner has the most PA on the team as DH. His OPS is .734 as a DH. Nearly 200 points below JDM. In a far better hitter's park.But Turner isn't, and he's the Martinez replacement. You might want to slow down just a bit.
And Turner has a $13M player option for next year, his age 39 year. Unless you think his decline trend will miraculously reverse at that age, this is not looking like a great signing. May ultimately be neutral but I certainly wouldn't commit that kind of money to him next year, if I had the option to avoid it.Turner has the most PA on the team as DH. His OPS is .734 as a DH. Nearly 200 points below JDM. In a far better hitter's park.
More than two, for starters (something that hasn't actually happened to Bloom yet).My stance on Bloom is established, but this is a legitimate, honest question to you in the spirit of debate rather than internet snark: How many consecutive non-playoff seasons would it take to make you think Bloom had enough time and just couldn't get the job done? For example, if the Sox finish out of the playoffs (not losing records, not under-.500, but just out of the playoffs, meaning they cannot compete for a championship at all when the time the regular seasons ends) for the next 4 years, does Bloom still get the benefit of the doubt? You mentioned changing GMs every 5 years makes no sense and I can see the argument for that, but what would be the point at which you would say "maybe this isn't working?" And yes, I know they went to the ALCS in 21, I just mean going forward how many years would a team have to miss the playoffs to think that the GM had the ability to form relationships/do their thing, but their model (whatever it is) is broken?
Ha, yeah I'm sorry. I didn't mean it as any sort of shot at you or anything like that. You guys were just discussing Casas' relative fielding acumen and I thought I'd point out that at least he's hitting!Has nothing at all to do with my post, but okay. Go Sox!
$6.7M buyout.. So the Sox are either in for 1/$15 or 2/$22.And Turner has a $13M player option for next year, his age 39 year. Unless you think his decline trend will miraculously reverse at that age, this is not looking like a great signing. May ultimately be neutral but I certainly wouldn't commit that kind of money to him next year, if I had the option to avoid it.
But would you? Once again, legit question. It's 2026 and the team has sniffed the playoffs but didn't actually make it. Give Chaim another shot?More than two, for starters (something that hasn't actually happened to Bloom yet).
The argument in the thread has generally been about whether he should keep his job through this season, not four years down the line. If he's still around in 2026 and the team hasn't sniffed the playoffs in that entire time, I would expect pretty much everyone here to be ready to move on from him.
But would JD be doing this so well without working with his hitting guru? The only place JD was likely to go was the Dodgers, hoping that he could be fixed and he has so far.Turner has the most PA on the team as DH. His OPS is .734 as a DH. Nearly 200 points below JDM. In a far better hitter's park.
JDM .918. Turner .738. This was a good decision by Chaim? Bloomers are seriously counting that as a good decision? JDM hit more homers in the last 2 weeks than Turner has in 2+ months.
I had basically forgotten that Martinez is still playing baseball. He's crushing it with the Dodgers (shock!).Turner has the most PA on the team as DH. His OPS is .734 as a DH. Nearly 200 points below JDM. In a far better hitter's park.
JDM .918. Turner .738. This was a good decision by Chaim? Bloomers are seriously counting that as a good decision? JDM hit more homers in the last 2 weeks than Turner has in 2+ months.
I'm still quite bullish on Casas.Ha, yeah I'm sorry. I didn't mean it as any sort of shot at you or anything like that. You guys were just discussing Casas' relative fielding acumen and I thought I'd point out that at least he's hitting!
Even last year's version of JDM was 50 points better OPS than Turner.But would JD be doing this so well without working with his hitting guru? The only place JD was likely to go was the Dodgers, hoping that he could be fixed and he has so far.
Thanks for the correction. Fully expect the buyout to be utilized here.$6.7M buyout.. So the Sox are either in for 1/$15 or 2/$22.
Probably not. If we're talking four years missing the playoffs and time for his drafts to start paying dividends with no positive results, yeah, he should go. I don't see how answering that question is at all relevant to the here and now though.But would you? Once again, legit question. It's 2026 and the team has sniffed the playoffs but didn't actually make it. Give Chaim another shot?
JD is hitting great. We were talking about fielding and having a non-fielding DHTurner has the most PA on the team as DH. His OPS is .734 as a DH. Nearly 200 points below JDM. In a far better hitter's park.
JDM .918. Turner .738. This was a good decision by Chaim? Bloomers are seriously counting that as a good decision? JDM hit more homers in the last 2 weeks than Turner has in 2+ months.
$6.7M buyout.. So the Sox are either in for 1/$15 or 2/$22.
Worked out just like Revis!Even last year's version of JDM was 50 points better OPS than Turner.
Right. Casas sucks at fielding. So his presence on the team vs. JDM doesn't exactly help. JT doesn't play the field. His OPS is worse than JDM's, by far. Neither Turner nor Casas help on D. Both are worse at hitting than JDM. So how are the Sox better off?JD is hitting great. We were talking about fielding and having a non-fielding DH
Seems like leaving the Sox fixed a lot of players, though. Isn’t it fair to wonder why? Like, Dave Bush has been the pitching coach for a while now, and in the organization for a long time, who exactly has he gotten good performances out of?But would JD be doing this so well without working with his hitting guru? The only place JD was likely to go was the Dodgers, hoping that he could be fixed and he has so far.
JDM? C'mon, tell me you're going to call out Bloom for not re-signing Martinez? The guy that the overwhelming majority of folks here said was cooked last season? Were you in the camp that was upset over the lack of him being moved at the trade deadline or were you longing for his return this season? Wacha... Were you among those who thought that Wacha's 2020 season may have been a one off and thinking $15M for 3-4 years (IIRC that's what he was originally looking to get) was a bit steep? I think most of us were of that mind.Obviously process matters, but at the end of the day,
Was his decision on Wacha correct? Seemingly no.
Was his decision on Eovaldi correct? Seemingly no.
Was his decision on JDM correct? Seemingly no.
Process may be 3 for 3. Outcome is 0 for 3. At some point that matters.
It doesn't matter what I think. I don't get paid $5M? $8M? to make these decisions. The bottom line is that these guys have all performed at a high level this season after Bloom decided to let them walk. JDM's OPS is nearly 200 points higher than Turner's. And he is making $5M less.JDM? C'mon, tell me you're going to call out Bloom for not re-signing Martinez? The guy that the overwhelming majority of folks here said was cooked last season? Were you in the camp that was upset over the lack of him being moved at the trade deadline or were you longing for his return this season? Wacha... Were you among those who thought that Wacha's 2020 season may have been a one off and thinking $15M for 3-4 years (IIRC that's what he was originally looking to get) was a bit steep? I think most of us were of that mind.
Maybe keep the offer on the table for the entire offseason and not bite off your nose to spite your face?
The money was already re-allocated by the time Nate came back to the sox. So are you now suggesting they just sit around twiddling their thumbs and risk the chance of not re-signing Nate, and not signing Yoshida, Jansen or Martin?"It sounds like from some of what I've heard, Eovaldi's camp came back to the Red Sox and said 'okay, can we still get that offer back?' (The Red Sox) said no. That was after they got Masataka Yoshida, Kenley Jansen and Chris Martin
I appreciate the spirit of the question. The problem for me is that I believe the ultimate reality lies well out of sight for people like us. Unlike the NBA, where we can name just about everyone in the organization and see the prospects years out, in baseball being the team that scores big in the international markets, or develops a new method for assessing talent, or figures out how to coach better development -- how the hell are we supposed to judge the guy at the top when he has numerous layers of people below him doing essential work? I am, as you can tell, deeply suspicious of the connection between short term major league team results and organizational quality.My stance on Bloom is established, but this is a legitimate, honest question to you in the spirit of debate rather than internet snark: How many consecutive non-playoff seasons would it take to make you think Bloom had enough time and just couldn't get the job done? For example, if the Sox finish out of the playoffs (not losing records, not under-.500, but just out of the playoffs, meaning they cannot compete for a championship at all when the time the regular seasons ends) for the next 4 years, does Bloom still get the benefit of the doubt? You mentioned changing GMs every 5 years makes no sense and I can see the argument for that, but what would be the point at which you would say "maybe this isn't working?" And yes, I know they went to the ALCS in 21, I just mean going forward how many years would a team have to miss the playoffs to think that the GM had the ability to form relationships/do their thing, but their model (whatever it is) is broken?
I'll push back a bit on JDM. It's clear that at this point in his career, JDM is strictly a DH. Turner can play first and third base in addition to DH so he offers some versatility that JDM doesn't. It also allows Casas to be benched against certain tough left handers. There is at least a somewhat credible right handed bat to play first base this year unlike in 2022.Obviously process matters, but at the end of the day,
Was his decision on Wacha correct? Seemingly no.
Was his decision on Eovaldi correct? Seemingly no.
Was his decision on JDM correct? Seemingly no.
Process may be 3 for 3. Outcome is 0 for 3. At some point that matters.
Well, there are also players like Vaz, Barnes, Xander, Franchy, Diekman, and others who are worse this season. Does it really tell us anything?Seems like leaving the Sox fixed a lot of players, though. Isn’t it fair to wonder why? Like, Dave Bush has been the pitching coach for a while now, and in the organization for a long time, who exactly has he gotten good performances out of?
Houck, Bello, Whitlock, and increasingly Winckowski and Crawford.Seems like leaving the Sox fixed a lot of players, though. Isn’t it fair to wonder why? Like, Dave Bush has been the pitching coach for a while now, and in the organization for a long time, who exactly has he gotten good performances out of?
I mean your quote says it all. The Sox said, nah, we're good. But awesome that we have Jansen.The money was already re-allocated by the time Nate came back to the sox. So are you now suggesting they just sit around twiddling their thumbs and risk the chance of not re-signing Nate, and not signing Yoshida, Jansen or Martin?
And if you are going to reply with "screw the CBT, and be like the Mets, PHI and SD.".... How is that going for them this season?... Spending like a drunken sailor guarantees nothing
2/3 of Turners plate appearances are at DH.I'll push back a bit on JDM. It's clear that at this point in his career, JDM is strictly a DH. Turner can play first and third base in addition to DH so he offers some versatility that JDM doesn't. It also allows Casas to be benched against certain tough left handers. There is at least a somewhat credible right handed bat to play first base this year unlike in 2022.
On the pitching front however, I agree with you. Bloom went 0 fir 3 in my opinion.
I have no real opinion of Bush, but didn't Wacha turn his career around under Bush?Like, Dave Bush has been the pitching coach for a while now, and in the organization for a long time, who exactly has he gotten good performances out of?
It's relevant to me because outside of '21, this team has not been good. I have no real reason to think they are going to make the playoffs this year, or (and this is the most damning) that they have the players on the farm now that are going to help them be contenders, outside of a handful of players. I don't think Bloom has done a good job. A number of people on this board disagree with that assessment, either that Bloom has done a good job, or that he hasn't had the proper time to do a good job. I am just curious how long the pro-Bloom crowd thinks he should get before he has to show some kind of results.Probably not. If we're talking four years missing the playoffs and time for his drafts to start paying dividends with no positive results, yeah, he should go. I don't see how answering that question is at all relevant to the here and now though.
Thought the narrative was that he turned it around the last two months of 21 in Tampa and that’s why the Sox targeted him?I have no real opinion of Bush, but didn't Wacha turn his career around under Bush?
But Turner isn't, and he's the Martinez replacement. You might want to slow down just a bit.
Where are you getting that Turner doesn't play in the field? Turner has played a number of games at first and third base this year. I think you're letting your hatred of Bloom get this best of you. At the very least, check a boxscore.Right. Casas sucks at fielding. So his presence on the team vs. JDM doesn't exactly help. JT doesn't play the field. His OPS is worse than JDM's, by far. Neither Turner nor Casas help on D. Both are worse at hitting than JDM. So how are the Sox better off?
[edit] Petagine beat me to itI have no real opinion of Bush, but didn't Wacha turn his career around under Bush?
2/3 of JT's plate appearances are as DH. Check the stats. At the very least.Where are you getting that Turner doesn't play in the field? Turner has played a number of games at first and third base this year. I think you're letting your hatred of Bloom get this best of you. At the very least, check a boxscore.
You might be right. I'm strictly basing my comment on the trajectory of his career and his stats with the Sox.Thought the narrative was that he turned it around the last two months of 21 in Tampa and that’s why the Sox targeted him?
Did you see where I quoted you. You literally said Turner doesn't play in the field. As you now admit, Turner has played at least some of the time at first and third base. So your initial statement was factually wrong. That's all I'm saying.2/3 of JT's plate appearances are as DH. Check the stats. At the very least.
JDM played "a number of games" in the field for the Sox as well.
Correct. He plays the field. With a negative defensive WAR per b-ref. Yay Chaim!!!!!!!Did you see where I quoted you. You literally said Turner doesn't play in the field. As you now admit, Turner has played at least some of the time at first and third base. So your initial statement was factually wrong. That's all I'm saying.
It is fair 8n spite of the division..we know who is in the division and whom we are competing with. Do the Sox have what it takes and the will to do what it takes to compete. The fact that Kluber still wears the information tells me we do not. That and a dozen or so other things.. Sale on the 60 day. Oh well in 10 days we will know if we even have a chanceBut what does that do? Appease the writers? The fan base? Take a look at any of the preseason rankings from this year - BR for example.
So the Sox could have the same record and a $400 million dollar payroll. Sounds a lot worse to me.
- Houston - currently fighting for a wildcard.
- Braves - 1st in division, .613 WP.
- Mets - spent a shitload of money. Currently sporting a losing record, not even in the playoff picture.
- Yankees - currently fighting for a wildcard (although with a .578 WP, thanks AL E).
- Padres - same as the Mets.
- Phillies - Losing record.
- Dodgers - currently fighting for a wildcard.
- Blue Jays - currently fighting for a wildcard (although with a .563 WP, thanks AL E).
Bello looks legit. Houck and Whitlock less so, but they're not nothing. Drohan might be something. I don't disagree that we haven't exactly modeled the Tampa Bay pitching development machine. Very few teams do. But having cheap, cost-controlled talent elsewhere on the roster (shortstop, outfield, first base, catcher, etc.) allows them to sign talent in free agency or trade for talent without killing the future of the franchise. There are a lot ways to dice it.
And your position is that Bloom should have anticipated this?It doesn't matter what I think. I don't get paid $5M? $8M? to make these decisions. The bottom line is that these guys have all performed at a high level this season after Bloom decided to let them walk. JDM's OPS is nearly 200 points higher than Turner's. And he is making $5M less.
In 60 games played this season, Turner has played the field in 24 of them (16 at 1B, 4 at 3B and 4 at 2B). In 186 games played last season and this season Martinez has played 1 game in LF.I mean your quote says it all. The Sox said, nah, we're good. But awesome that we have Jansen.
2/3 of Turners plate appearances are at DH.
The job of a GM is quite literally to anticipate how baseball players will play.And your position is that Bloom should have anticipated this?
In fantasy baseball, absolutely. In reality, my sense is that there is about 100x more to it than that, starting with hiring the people who will do the actual evaluations and give you their predictions so you the GM can decide.The job of a GM is quite literally to anticipate how baseball players will play.
JDFN Martinez? C'mon.The job of a GM is quite literally to anticipate how baseball players will play.
Turner has like a 650 OPS when playing the field, maybe he should just DH.In 60 games played this season, Turner has played the field in 24 of them (16 at 1B, 4 at 3B and 4 at 2B). In 186 games played last season and this season Martinez has played 1 game in LF.