How long will Chaim last?

When will FSG see the light and fire this guy?


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John Marzano Olympic Hero

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And your position is that Bloom should have anticipated this?
Yes. Fair or not, that’s like the most important part of his job.

If he just throws up his hands at the end of a shit season and says, “welp, another season of bad luck!” Why is John Henry paying him? Just get a monkey to throw shit at a wall and pay him in bananas.

It will accomplish the same thing, be cheaper and to be Frank, would absolutely rule to have a Monkey GM.
 

chrisfont9

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Yes. Fair or not, that’s like the most important part of his job.

If he just throws up his hands at the end of a shit season and says, “welp, another season of bad luck!” Why is John Henry paying him? Just get a monkey to throw shit at a wall and pay him in bananas.

It will accomplish the same thing, be cheaper and to be Frank, would absolutely rule to have a Monkey GM.
So all he does is build major league rosters, one year at a time?
 

scottyno

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Dec 7, 2008
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Correct. He plays the field. With a negative defensive WAR per b-ref. Yay Chaim!!!!!!!
He has a negative defensive war because they use a negative adjustment for his time at DH and 1b. That doesn't mean he's been a negative player in the field.
 

NickEsasky

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Yes. Fair or not, that’s like the most important part of his job.

If he just throws up his hands at the end of a shit season and says, “welp, another season of bad luck!” Why is John Henry paying him? Just get a monkey to throw shit at a wall and pay him in bananas.

It will accomplish the same thing, be cheaper and to be Frank, would absolutely rule to have a Monkey GM.
Sign me up for Johnny Chimpo as GM next year
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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So all he does is build major league rosters, one year at a time?
Sigh. Chaim has to do a couple of things at once. He has to build a good team for the next season while also preparing the franchise for the future. He should have a one, three and five-year plan.

These plans should be written on an Etch-A-Sketch because they’re probably going to change year-to-year. I don’t think Bloom is very good at building a MLB team, aside from a few hits (Yoshida, Wacha, maybe one or two more that I’m not thinking of) his batting average is poor.

His trade record isn’t great. Pivetta is probably his best deal and he’s mediocre. His draft record seems okay, but it’s too early to really tell but his ability to pluck diamonds in the rough from other franchises stinks too. That was supposed to be his secret sauce. It’s kinda rancid.

Like I’ve said before, I don’t think Bloom is dumb. He’s obviously not. But I don’t think he’s smarter than 29 other people with the same job.
 

chrisfont9

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Sign me up for Johnny Chimpo as GM next year
This would solve the popularity issue. I think a large part of the Boston market would be happiest with a drunken, one-legged GM named Stumpy O'Halloran rather than a Yale grad from Philly with a very not-Irish name. They could even hire an actor to play Stumpy who they trot out twice a year, say they "demoted" Bloom to do the same job without the title, and it would go great probably.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

has fancy plans, and pants to match
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Apr 12, 2001
23,975
This would solve the popularity issue. I think a large part of the Boston market would be happiest with a drunken, one-legged GM named Stumpy O'Halloran rather than a Yale grad from Philly with a very not-Irish name. They could even hire an actor to play Stumpy who they trot out twice a year, say they "demoted" Bloom to do the same job without the title, and it would go great probably.
Yeah. Everyone loved Bunker Hill Community College educated, not Irish at all, Terry O’Epstein. Boy, the amount of love that guy got was absolutely insane.
 

NickEsasky

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This would solve the popularity issue. I think a large part of the Boston market would be happiest with a drunken, one-legged GM named Stumpy O'Halloran rather than a Yale grad from Philly with a very not-Irish name. They could even hire an actor to play Stumpy who they trot out twice a year, say they "demoted" Bloom to do the same job without the title, and it would go great probably.
This is stupid. I care not one wick where the GM went to college or what his name is. I care if he can do his job really well. Jury is still out on Chaim but so far not so good. But sure please continue to insinuate I’m not a fan of Bloom because of where he went to school or what his name is and not because the Sox are in last place again and the prospect pipeline is still a work in progress.
 

chrisfont9

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This is stupid. I care not one wick where the GM went to college or what his name is. I care if he can do his job really well. Jury is still out on Chaim but so far not so good. But sure please continue to insinuate I’m not a fan of Bloom because of where he went to school or what his name is and not because the Sox are in last place again and the prospect pipeline is still a work in progress.
You guys clearly can't take a joke. Happy Friday
 

mikcou

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The money was already re-allocated by the time Nate came back to the sox. So are you now suggesting they just sit around twiddling their thumbs and risk the chance of not re-signing Nate, and not signing Yoshida, Jansen or Martin?

And if you are going to reply with "screw the CBT, and be like the Mets, PHI and SD.".... How is that going for them this season?... Spending like a drunken sailor guarantees nothing
The main reason this is true is that they guaranteed $10M and a rotation spot to Corey Kluber, who is terrible. The deal never made sense - he wasn’t good in 2022 and had zero margin for his stuff to degrade.
 

tims4wins

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And your position is that Bloom should have anticipated this?
This is what he is paid to do.
In 60 games played this season, Turner has played the field in 24 of them (16 at 1B, 4 at 3B and 4 at 2B). In 186 games played last season and this season Martinez has played 1 game in LF.
2/3 of Turner’s plate appearances have been at DH
The job of a GM is quite literally to anticipate how baseball players will play.
//Michael Scott// THANK YOU
 

Quatchie

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Jul 23, 2009
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There are very few bright spots that Chaim can claim. He is overmatched and needs to be fired. Where is the progress? He's putting a garbage product on the field. Touted as a smart guy, but its not translating to any material success. Fire Chaim Bloom.
 

tims4wins

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Bring back Theo - the only Red Sox GM that won championships and produced front starters from the farm system.
It’s not happening but my god this would be the best thing that happened to Boston sports since… I dunno, McDaniels returning to the Pats in 2018?
 

chawson

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This is an absurd thread.

JDM is reunited with his hitting mentor in LAD, there’s no guarantee he’d put up the same numbers here. Besides, crucially, Turner can play first base, and everyone spent a year of their lives last year complaining about first base depth.

I wanted the Sox to keep Eovaldi around, and would’ve given Wacha the QO (and maybe traded him). That said, I think it’s totally understandable that Bloom didn’t outbid to keep them here. It’s time for Bello, Whitlock and Houck (and Crawford, honestly) to stick in the rotation. Keeping Wacha and Eovaldi here would have buried them, and that’s a waste of resources.

He was an above-average starter last year, but it looks like we got stuck with the hot potato with Kluber. That’s too bad. You can’t do anything about Sale but try to support him, and it almost worked. Paxton is looking like a terrific starter at only $4M. Pivetta is who he is.

I much preferred Kiké in center field over shortstop, but who would you have gotten? Iglesias is a bad answer. Andrus is the wrong answer. Trading for Rosario, no. The Dodgers gave up someone legit for Miguel Rojas, who’s been terrible and hurt. Signing Swanson, Bogaerts and Correa at their salaries doesn’t make sense when Mayer is probably up summer 2024. I genuinely think Yu Chang would be a middle-of-the-pack shortstop right now if he hadn’t gotten hurt.

The Sox are good, they’re in a skid. A few key players have taken significant steps forward. Yoshida is a revelation. Paxton/Bello/Whitlock/Houck is a really good 1-4. Crawford looks like a good 5. Yorke is back. Drohan and Anthony are suddenly exciting prospects. We have a really soft July schedule ahead.

I get that people are frustrated. Sale got hurt. Dermody is an idiot (and no longer part of the team), but I don’t think using him as an emergency starter for a few innings before DFAing him is as as outrageous as others do. It’s a shame everyone’s so eager to Fire Chaim!1! that they’re digging this hard.
 
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richgedman'sghost

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He has a negative defensive war because they use a negative adjustment for his time at DH and 1b. That doesn't mean he's been a negative player in the field.
I could be wrong but I was always taught to ignore defensive WAR after only a third of the season due to sample size issues and also random variance. Defensive WAR should only be trusted at the end of the season.
My other point is that Turner losses credit because he gets zero credit when he is the DH. In other words he has positive value when he plays the field. He is only negative because of the hefty DH penalty. Just admit you were wrong about JT
 

grimshaw

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I get that there is no depth at the top of the system, pitching wise, but Bloom has killed it so far in his drafts, not even mentioning Bleis - who has admittedly sagged a bit.

2020 was 4 selections (they did not have a 2nd rounder thanks to the Cora punishment) - Drohan and Yorke are a season or less away, Blaze Jordan is probably the draft away from Portland, and Wu Yelland has been injured. Regardless of whether they perform, getting more than one guy to the bigs in one draft isn't a given. Particularly when you only have 5 bites of the apple.

2021 - Mayer is Mayer, Meidroth is slashing .304/.443/.478 as a 21 year old in AA. Hickey is hitting well - though performed poorly at his position. Elmer Rodriguez Cruz has pitched well. Hunter Dobbins - their 8th rounder is hitting 97 with 3 secondary offerings beginning to develop. Probably close to a promotion.

Dalton Roge, rs has made a big step up. Roman Anthony is getting some buzz.

I know we are getting caught up on the on field product, but there is some hope. It would suck if he were dismissed before seeing some of these guys.

For some perspective -2015 to 2019 has borne Casas, Beni, Houck, Duran and Dalbec combined. Few other players had more than even a cup of coffee. Will most of those guys contribute? No. But the fact that several are already playing well in AA is very promising.
 
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scottyno

late Bloomer
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Dec 7, 2008
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I could be wrong but I was always taught to ignore defensive WAR after only a third of the season due to sample size issues and also random variance. Defensive WAR should only be trusted at the end of the season.
My other point is that Turner losses credit because he gets zero credit when he is the DH. In other words he has positive value when he plays the field. He is only negative because of the hefty DH penalty. Just admit you were wrong about JT
Pretty sure you meant to reply to him and not me, but yeah if you look at all of Turner's innings in the field he's been roughly average, which certainly has value, especially compared to a guy who now 2 teams have decided can no longer play in the field at all.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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This is an absurd thread.

JDM is reunited with his hitting mentor in LAD, there’s no guarantee he’d put up the same numbers here. Besides, crucially, Turner can play first base, and everyone spent a year of their lives last year complaining about first base depth.

I wanted the Sox to keep Eovaldi around, and would’ve given Wacha the QO (and maybe traded him). That said, I think it’s totally understandable that Bloom didn’t outbid to keep them here. It’s time for Bello, Whitlock and Houck (and Crawford, honestly) to stick in the rotation. Keeping Wacha and Eovaldi here would have buried them, and that’s a waste of resources.

He was an above-average starter last year, but got stuck with the hot potato with Kluber. That’s too bad. You can’t do anything about Sale but try to support him, and it almost worked. Paxton is looking like a terrific starter at only $4M. Pivetta is who he is.

I didn’t like Kiké at short, but sho would you have gotten? Iglesias is a bad answer. Andrus is the wrong answer. Trading for Rosario, no. The Dodgers gave up someone legit for Miguel Rojas, who’s been terrible and hurt. Signing Swanson, Bogaerts and Correa at their salaries doesn’t make sense when Mayer is probably up summer 2024. I genuinely thing Yu Chang would be a middle-of-the-pack shortstop if he hadn’t gotten hurt.

The Sox are good, they’re in a skid. A few key players have taken significant steps forward. Yoshida is a revelation. Paxton/Bello/Whitlock/Houck is a really good 1-4. Crawford looks like a good 5. Yorke is back. Drohan and Anthony are suddenly exciting prospects. We have a really soft July schedule ahead.

Sale got hurt. Dermody is an idiot (and no longer part of the team). It’s a shame everyone’s so eager to Fire Chaim!1! that they’re digging this hard.
good lord thank you for this!!!!
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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One thing I will be highly critical of Bloom over is if he doesn’t leverage the middle infield mL talent into a trade for pitching either before this deadline if the Sox are in it or over the next offseason.
 

mikcou

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One thing I will be highly critical of Bloom over is if he doesn’t leverage the middle infield mL talent into a trade for pitching either before this deadline if the Sox are in it or over the next offseason.
Are you talking about prospect for prospect type trades? As logical as they are, they don’t really occur all that much.

If you’re talking about trading for good MLB pitching, the infield mL talent isn’t much if you aren’t including Mayer or Yorke. Guys like Lugo, Meidroth, Mikey Romero, etc. aren’t headlining a deal for a good MLB pitcher.
 

Rovin Romine

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I don’t quite understand why there are so many posters who aggressively come to Blooms defense as if he’s been amazing and he deserves no criticism. These same posters often post with more than a little condescension and snark. It’s over the top and I don’t get what Bloom has done to deserve that type of leash and faith, other than the fact he’s an executive of our favorite team
It somewhat mirrors the social/political discourse in the US. People conflate general situations with persons, get entrenched in their biases, and latch onto anything that seems to confirm them. Bloom has done a very decent job with what he has, but I doubt anyone here thinks he's an historically good GM.

Bloom gets defended mostly because if you actually follow the team, it's irritating and offensive to watch people make number-free, or fact-free, or history-free assertions simply because they're impatient and want to blindly agitate for change.

I mean, take the SS issue for example. They'll bring up Xander when he's hitting well, but not so much now that he's been ice cold for a month and then just injured his wrist to boot. They'll forget Story exists. They'll forget our defensive SS depth has been injured. They'll forget the actual sequence of signings, and pretend that any given player on the roster was signed first, and assume the plan was to use them exactly as they are being used now.

It's emotionally-driven pink-hatism at best, and disingenuous trolling at worst. So I don't see how people pushing back on mouth-breathing on that type of thing equates with "[Bloom] deserves no criticism."

At the end of the day, I think there's probably not a lot of personal loyalty re: Bloom. If someone told me Bloom could be fired and, in consequence, the team was guaranteed go to the WS next year - sign me up!
 
Mar 30, 2023
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It somewhat mirrors the social/political discourse in the US. People conflate general situations with persons, get entrenched in their biases, and latch onto anything that seems to confirm them. Bloom has done a very decent job with what he has, but I doubt anyone here thinks he's an historically good GM.

Bloom gets defended mostly because if you actually follow the team, it's irritating and offensive to watch people make number-free, or fact-free, or history-free assertions simply because they're impatient and want to blindly agitate for change.

I mean, take the SS issue for example. They'll bring up Xander when he's hitting well, but not so much now that he's been ice cold for a month and then just injured his wrist to boot. They'll forget Story exists. They'll forget our defensive SS depth has been injured. They'll forget the actual sequence of signings, and pretend that any given player on the roster was signed first, and assume the plan was to use them exactly as they are being used now.

It's emotionally-driven pink-hatism at best, and disingenuous trolling at worst. So I don't see how people pushing back on mouth-breathing on that type of thing equates with "[Bloom] deserves no criticism."

At the end of the day, I think there's probably not a lot of personal loyalty re: Bloom. If someone told me Bloom could be fired and, in consequence, the team was guaranteed go to the WS next year - sign me up!
This is a truly amazing post. It's probably not amazing in the way you thought it was when you wrote it, but it's truly amazing nonetheless.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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Are you talking about prospect for prospect type trades? As logical as they are, they don’t really occur all that much.

If you’re talking about trading for good MLB pitching, the infield mL talent isn’t much if you aren’t including Mayer or Yorke. Guys like Lugo, Meidroth, Mikey Romero, etc. aren’t headlining a deal for a good MLB pitcher.
Yeah. Yorke needs to be the centerpiece of a deal. He’s blocked from above and has good talent below him to not stress about it.
I also have no idea about other teams so I can’t really propose one of those deals, but I’d be looking at teams with surpluses of pitchers
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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This is a truly amazing post. It's probably not amazing in the way you thought it was when you wrote it, but it's truly amazing nonetheless.
RR has never been a Bloom loyalist. IMO he defends decisions that are worth defending and has fairly been critical when warranted. You, on the other hand, have done more drive-by posting criticism without a second of reflection beforehand.
 

BaseballJones

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I don't blame Bloom at ALL for not re-signing JDM. Downward trend from 2018. Not counting 2020 (just disregard it), here's how it went, from a power perspective.

2018 (age 30): 649 PA, 43 HR = 1 HR every 15.1 PA, 1.031 ops
2019 (age 31): 657 PA, 36 HR = 1 HR every 18.3 PA, 0.939 ops
2021 (age 33): 634 PA, 28 HR = 1 HR every 22.6 PA, 0.867 ops
2022 (age 34): 596 PA, 16 HR = 1 HR every 37.3 PA, 0.790 ops

I mean, the trend was clear. Not a small sample size either. He was going downward, though it must be said that even in 2022 he was an above average hitter, with a 117 ops+. So it's not like the guy was COOKED. He just wasn't JD F-ING MARTINEZ anymore. Not by a long shot.

If you were a betting man following the 2022 season, smart money would have been on his numbers further declining. Not a guarantee, of course, but definitely that would be where the smart money would be. Even if he stayed the same, we're talking about a 35 year old guy who hits a homer every 37 PA and plays no defense whatsoever. The only real place you can put him is at DH.

Now, Justin Turner. Not surprisingly, given his age, his trend is similar.

2018 (age 33): 426 PA, 14 HR = 1 HR every 30.4 PA, 0.924 ops
2019 (age 34): 549 PA, 27 HR = 1 HR every 20.3 PA, 0.881 ops
2021 (age 36): 612 PA, 27 HR = 1 HR every 22.7 PA, 0.832 ops
2022 (age 37): 532 PA, 13 HR = 1 HR every 40.9 PA, 0.788 ops

So yeah a similar downward trend. Of course JDM has always been a better hitter than Turner, but Turner at least offers you modest defense at two positions, while Martinez gives you nothing on defense.

I have no issue with them letting JDM go. I loved the guy, and he was an enormous part of this team for a few years, and was key to winning a WS title. No disrespect to him, no animosity towards him, nothing like that. But I'd have bet that he wouldn't be producing ANYWHERE NEAR what he's produced so far this year. Maybe I'd have lost that bet, but it would have been a more than reasonable bet to make if you're Bloom.

Can't fault him for this one, IMO.
 

BigSoxFan

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RR has never been a Bloom loyalist. IMO he defends decisions that are worth defending and has fairly been critical when warranted. You, on the other hand, have done more drive-by posting criticism without a second of reflection beforehand.
Well, here’s the problem with that original post and why the Chaim threads always go off the rails. People who criticize Chaim are being called “pink hats” or trolls at worse, as if there are no valid criticisms of Chaim. There is a strong implication that they know less about baseball than those defending Chaim.

There are a lot of smart baseball fans on this board and I do agree with RR that these threads kind of mirror the political discourse of this country. We don’t always need to retreat to extremes here.

Chaim has a ledger that has some real positives and negatives. Yoshida is a positive. The farm is looking like a real positive. The team’s performance? A negative unless you were hoping for a .500 team. The development and sourcing of pitching? Not looking great although maybe the Paxton move can change that a bit.

All in all, I don’t know why either side has to shout down or insult the other on this topic.
 

Yelling At Clouds

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I don’t quite understand why there are so many posters who aggressively come to Blooms defense as if he’s been amazing and he deserves no criticism. These same posters often post with more than a little condescension and snark. It’s over the top and I don’t get what Bloom has done to deserve that type of leash and faith, other than the fact he’s an executive of our favorite team
I think - I don’t want to put words in anyone’s mouth, but this is what it seems like to me, the rare “person who’s somewhere in the middle” on Bloom - the disconnect is in evaluating process vs. evaluating results. It seems like a lot of people who defend Bloom would note that his process has been sound, and I’m inclined to agree that most of his moves have been defensible on some level. And he’s gotten some good results! 2021 as a whole, and some individual successes as well. And it’s maybe worthy noting that the same process that brought Kluber 2023 also brought in Wacha 2022. (And Perez, Richards, etc.)

But, on the other hand, it’s a results-oriented business; there’s no trophy for “most sensible use of resources” or whatever, so I do think that if the overall on-field results don’t turn around, he may go regardless. But coaches/Cora would probably go first, I would suspect.
 

Blizzard of 1978

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I think - I don’t want to put words in anyone’s mouth, but this is what it seems like to me, the rare “person who’s somewhere in the middle” on Bloom - the disconnect is in evaluating process vs. evaluating results. It seems like a lot of people who defend Bloom would note that his process has been sound, and I’m inclined to agree that most of his moves have been defensible on some level. And he’s gotten some good results! 2021 as a whole, and some individual successes as well. And it’s maybe worthy noting that the same process that brought Kluber 2023 also brought in Wacha 2022. (And Perez, Richards, etc.)

But, on the other hand, it’s a results-oriented business; there’s no trophy for “most sensible use of resources” or whatever, so I do think that if the overall on-field results don’t turn around, he may go regardless. But coaches/Cora would probably go first, I would suspect.
Good points. If also I think about it more I love to have Martin Perez or Garret Richards right now in the rotation than Kluber. So, I guess Chaim Bloom's process can work. I don't think anybody knew Kluber would decline this much. He was actually a decent pitcher last year.
 
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8slim

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I think - I don’t want to put words in anyone’s mouth, but this is what it seems like to me, the rare “person who’s somewhere in the middle” on Bloom - the disconnect is in evaluating process vs. evaluating results. It seems like a lot of people who defend Bloom would note that his process has been sound, and I’m inclined to agree that most of his moves have been defensible on some level. And he’s gotten some good results! 2021 as a whole, and some individual successes as well. And it’s maybe worthy noting that the same process that brought Kluber 2023 also brought in Wacha 2022. (And Perez, Richards, etc.)

But, on the other hand, it’s a results-oriented business; there’s no trophy for “most sensible use of resources” or whatever, so I do think that if the overall on-field results don’t turn around, he may go regardless. But coaches/Cora would probably go first, I would suspect.
Good post. And I’m in your boat — I don’t care about Bloom, strictly speaking. I just want to watch good Baseball at the major league level. For 3 of his 4 seasons that hasn’t really happened.

I give him a mulligan on 2020, and 2021 ended up being a lot of fun. But last year was a total slog after that June run, and this year is shaping up to be similar.

I get all the complexities of salary resets, building the farm, and all that. That’s Bloom’s job, and he can do it however he wants *provided* we see good baseball at the major league level. If this year lands with the thud I’m now expecting, then we better damn well be a legit contender next season. At that point he’ll have been in charge for 5 seasons. That’s plenty of time to build the franchise. It just is.
 
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Rwillh11

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I think - I don’t want to put words in anyone’s mouth, but this is what it seems like to me, the rare “person who’s somewhere in the middle” on Bloom - the disconnect is in evaluating process vs. evaluating results. It seems like a lot of people who defend Bloom would note that his process has been sound, and I’m inclined to agree that most of his moves have been defensible on some level. And he’s gotten some good results! 2021 as a whole, and some individual successes as well. And it’s maybe worthy noting that the same process that brought Kluber 2023 also brought in Wacha 2022. (And Perez, Richards, etc.)

But, on the other hand, it’s a results-oriented business; there’s no trophy for “most sensible use of resources” or whatever, so I do think that if the overall on-field results don’t turn around, he may go regardless. But coaches/Cora would probably go first, I would suspect.
I think this is exactly right.

From a process stand point, he's made a lot of moves that make sense. The results is much more of a mixed bag, but I think those of us who are more process oriented thinkers are inclined to think something like "there is always going to be a lot of random/unforseeable noise in the outcome, so what is most important is having a good process that makes realizing a good outcome for likely."

JD suddenly remembering how to hit like he's in his prime strikes me as pretty unforseeable - and given the contract he ended up getting none of the other teams saw it coming either. Similarly, given the options, having Kiké, a guy who had a reputation as a plus defensive shortstop (backed up by stats from ~600 major league innings) as a stop gap made a lot of sense, as did trading for Mondesi for additional flexibility. Of course, Kike has been much much worse than could reasonably be expected and Mondesi has been at the extreme long end of the recovery for those issues - but those outcomes seem more like bad luck/randomness than something that a GM could be expected to foresee.

For me, the only move this year that just totally doesn't make sense is the Jansen contract, it seems like a really strange use of assets given the desire to be under the cap this year. Not getting under the cap last year was bad too, but we obviously have no idea what the options were.

Of course, at some point, if the results are consistently bad, you have to start to question the process/talent evaluation. But I don't think we are there (or even all that close) at this point. I won't be particularly upset if Bloom is let go at the end of the year, but from a process stand point he seems to be making mostly good decisions with an eye towards flexibility to add premium talent along with the younger cheap talent that is coming through the system.
 

Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat

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For me, the only move this year that just totally doesn't make sense is the Jansen contract, it seems like a really strange use of assets given the desire to be under the cap this year. Not getting under the cap last year was bad too, but we obviously have no idea what the options were.
I think one of the main reasons to sign Jansen is that he becomes a potentially very valuable trade chip. Hell, given what the Dodgers have been going through at the end of games, I'm not sure they wouldn't love to have him back. But closers always seem to be in demand at the deadline, and while he's a roller coaster, Kenley clearly still has some left in the tank.
 

8slim

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I think this is exactly right.

From a process stand point, he's made a lot of moves that make sense. The results is much more of a mixed bag, but I think those of us who are more process oriented thinkers are inclined to think something like "there is always going to be a lot of random/unforseeable noise in the outcome, so what is most important is having a good process that makes realizing a good outcome for likely."

JD suddenly remembering how to hit like he's in his prime strikes me as pretty unforseeable - and given the contract he ended up getting none of the other teams saw it coming either. Similarly, given the options, having Kiké, a guy who had a reputation as a plus defensive shortstop (backed up by stats from ~600 major league innings) as a stop gap made a lot of sense, as did trading for Mondesi for additional flexibility. Of course, Kike has been much much worse than could reasonably be expected and Mondesi has been at the extreme long end of the recovery for those issues - but those outcomes seem more like bad luck/randomness than something that a GM could be expected to foresee.

For me, the only move this year that just totally doesn't make sense is the Jansen contract, it seems like a really strange use of assets given the desire to be under the cap this year. Not getting under the cap last year was bad too, but we obviously have no idea what the options were.

Of course, at some point, if the results are consistently bad, you have to start to question the process/talent evaluation. But I don't think we are there (or even all that close) at this point. I won't be particularly upset if Bloom is let go at the end of the year, but from a process stand point he seems to be making mostly good decisions with an eye towards flexibility to add premium talent along with the younger cheap talent that is coming through the system.
Also a good post, but I’ll push back on your Kike point. Kike is a below average batter and plugging him in to be a regular starter for yet another season seemed suspect to me. As a utility guy/defensive replacement? Fine. Defensive abilities aside, he’s a tough guy to carry in a lineup for 130+ games a year, and that’s again a role Bloom and Cora have him in. It’s not good.
 

tbb345

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Apr 23, 2010
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I think - I don’t want to put words in anyone’s mouth, but this is what it seems like to me, the rare “person who’s somewhere in the middle” on Bloom - the disconnect is in evaluating process vs. evaluating results. It seems like a lot of people who defend Bloom would note that his process has been sound, and I’m inclined to agree that most of his moves have been defensible on some level. And he’s gotten some good results! 2021 as a whole, and some individual successes as well. And it’s maybe worthy noting that the same process that brought Kluber 2023 also brought in Wacha 2022. (And Perez, Richards, etc.)

But, on the other hand, it’s a results-oriented business; there’s no trophy for “most sensible use of resources” or whatever, so I do think that if the overall on-field results don’t turn around, he may go regardless. But coaches/Cora would probably go first, I would suspect.
Honestly, I am also in the middle on Bloom. What’s pushed me more towards the negative side is the aforementioned mob of posters who shut down any whiff of criticism, as if the person suggesting Bloom isn’t perfect is some sort of moronic idiot who can’t possibly understand what he’s trying to do.

I agree with the bolded specifically. I think, on the whole, the process has been probably a B-/B. That definitely isn’t bad. But, again, I come back to the fact that it’s decidedly not an A or completely infallible.

I don’t post on the main board often anymore but I do post a lot on the Port Cellar. If I could make a comparison, people are defending Bloom like he’s Brad Stevens (who has made a mistake or two but overall has been fantastic) and it’s incredibly grating and shuts down any form of discussion
 

tbb345

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Well, here’s the problem with that original post and why the Chaim threads always go off the rails. People who criticize Chaim are being called “pink hats” or trolls at worse, as if there are no valid criticisms of Chaim. There is a strong implication that they know less about baseball than those defending Chaim.

There are a lot of smart baseball fans on this board and I do agree with RR that these threads kind of mirror the political discourse of this country. We don’t always need to retreat to extremes here.

Chaim has a ledger that has some real positives and negatives. Yoshida is a positive. The farm is looking like a real positive. The team’s performance? A negative unless you were hoping for a .500 team. The development and sourcing of pitching? Not looking great although maybe the Paxton move can change that a bit.

All in all, I don’t know why either side has to shout down or insult the other on this topic.
This is exactly what I was trying to say.
For the most part, the people criticizing Chaim understand the exact things that the people defending Chaim do (we all get he wanted to build the farm system and try to find more sustainable ways to win. That’s not some novel statement or hidden mission statement. He talks about it all of the fucking time, same as the posters here).
 

8slim

has trust issues
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Nov 6, 2001
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Unreal America
Honestly, I am also in the middle on Bloom. What’s pushed me more towards the negative side is the aforementioned mob of posters who shut down any whiff of criticism, as if the person suggesting Bloom isn’t perfect is some sort of moronic idiot who can’t possibly understand what he’s trying to do.

I agree with the bolded specifically. I think, on the whole, the process has been probably a B-/B. That definitely isn’t bad. But, again, I come back to the fact that it’s decidedly not an A or completely infallible.

I don’t post on the main board often anymore but I do post a lot on the Port Cellar. If I could make a comparison, people are defending Bloom like he’s Brad Stevens (who has made a mistake or two but overall has been fantastic) and it’s incredibly grating and shuts down any form of discussion
Unfortunately some folks think they’re better fans than others. Criticism is seen as some pre-teen lack of Patience (tm). That’s why we see the word “entitled” thrown around so often. It’s tedious.

I said my expectation for this season is to plausibly be in the Wild Card hunt through Labor Day weekend. That’s a pretty low bar and I’m worried we may not be able to clear it by July 4th, let alone Labor Day.
 

Rwillh11

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Apr 23, 2010
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Also a good post, but I’ll push back on your Kike point. Kike is a below average batter and plugging him in to be a regular starter for yet another season seemed suspect to me. As a utility guy/defensive replacement? Fine. Defensive abilities aside, he’s a tough guy to carry in a lineup for 130+ games a year, and that’s again a role Bloom and Cora have him in. It’s not good.
That's fair, but I'm not sure what available options were better.

I think it comes down to them not thinking one of the mega deals at shortstop was a wise use of $$ given the need to rest + Mayer. Story getting hurt also made things more difficult there, but the names that people throw out as who we should have signed (Iglesias?!?) didn't project to be any better on either side of the ball. I think with Kiké you are hoping the glove carries the bat, at least until Story comes back. Obviously, that's not how it worked out.
 

tbb345

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RR has never been a Bloom loyalist. IMO he defends decisions that are worth defending and has fairly been critical when warranted. You, on the other hand, have done more drive-by posting criticism without a second of reflection beforehand.
The parts that he highlighted are pretty ridiculous IMO. I thought there was a good point about trying not to be entrenched in your views but then the rest of the post is insults for people who don’t have those views
 

jmanny24

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Feb 6, 2003
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Honestly, I am also in the middle on Bloom. What’s pushed me more towards the negative side is the aforementioned mob of posters who shut down any whiff of criticism, as if the person suggesting Bloom isn’t perfect is some sort of moronic idiot who can’t possibly understand what he’s trying to do.

I agree with the bolded specifically. I think, on the whole, the process has been probably a B-/B. That definitely isn’t bad. But, again, I come back to the fact that it’s decidedly not an A or completely infallible.

I don’t post on the main board often anymore but I do post a lot on the Port Cellar. If I could make a comparison, people are defending Bloom like he’s Brad Stevens (who has made a mistake or two but overall has been fantastic) and it’s incredibly grating and shuts down any form of discussion
I agree with this, it happens in the Lombardis' forum too, anyone gets a whiff of Belichick criticism and you are hounded by defenders about how dumb you are, there's no discussion. But I also think as some others have said that unfortunately is the nature of discussions nowadays, I'm right and you're wrong. I think Bloom has been in the middle, really solid from an organizational standpoint but that hasn't manifested at the MLB level with the caveats of the covid year and the injury luck this year coupled with decisions that haven't turned out well hasn't helped his cause.
 

BaseballJones

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Oct 1, 2015
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I agree with parts of both sides of this. I think what you have to do as a GM is implement a good program - a good process - for building winning/championship baseball teams. I think Chaim gets it in that the key is having a robust farm system. Clearly he's been working hard at THAT, and we are starting to see the fruit of those labors. You put in a good process and, while it obviously won't work all the time, it should work much of the time. I think we will get there if we are patient enough.

Again, I will refer people to teams like the Braves and Astros, who are great now, largely (not exclusively) due to a ton of excellent, young, cheap talent that has come up through the farm system. But in order to get to that point, both those teams had to spend a proverbial 40 years in the wilderness to get there. Just look at Houston from 2009-2014 and Atlanta from 2014-2017. Boston is trying to put together the kinds of systems those teams did while simultaneously compete at the MLB level (those two other teams did not remotely compete at the MLB level during those years). It's really tricky.

But I also agree with those who say that ultimately, results matter. We should be seeing this organization turn the corner or Bloom is rightfully in danger of losing his job. The big problem is that just as the Sox are implementing this, every other team in the division is terrific. If the Sox were in almost any other division, we'd likely be looking at a team that's ~10 games over .500 and in first or second place and right in the playoff mix, and we'd be feeling a hell of a lot better about the results and the process. But alas, they're in the AL East.....
 

grimshaw

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May 16, 2007
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Also a good post, but I’ll push back on your Kike point. Kike is a below average batter and plugging him in to be a regular starter for yet another season seemed suspect to me. As a utility guy/defensive replacement? Fine. Defensive abilities aside, he’s a tough guy to carry in a lineup for 130+ games a year, and that’s again a role Bloom and Cora have him in. It’s not good.
I suspect Hernandez was someone who checked off the "on board with the culture change" quota and they needed some holdover. 1 year 10 mill is relative peanuts if they were expecting something between the 4 fWAR from 2021 and last season's flop. If Duran hadn't seized the CF job, I'll bet he would have earned his contract on defense alone. Plugging him at short was something I was an advocate of that just backfired

I actually think the Turner signing backed them into too much of a corner to get a better defense out there, but again they were really emphasizing reestablishing positive vibes from great clubhouse guys. I think he is someone they have to move since he has a player option and he isn't the solution as a DH since the bat won't carry him there. He's the perfect stretch run guy. They also did him a solid with the player option.

I will also echo others frustrations with the seeming need for black and white conversation since I can totally understand anti-Bloom viewpoints and am fully capable of being pro-Bloom with multiple caveats. Love the plan, love the farm, wish one of Mata, Murphy, or Walter were capable/healthy bulk guys, the free agent signings were better fits, Sale didn't cost this team 4 or more wins year after year, and the Story/Duvall shit didn't go down.
 
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