How long will Chaim last?

When will FSG see the light and fire this guy?


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8slim

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I agree with parts of both sides of this. I think what you have to do as a GM is implement a good program - a good process - for building winning/championship baseball teams. I think Chaim gets it in that the key is having a robust farm system. Clearly he's been working hard at THAT, and we are starting to see the fruit of those labors. You put in a good process and, while it obviously won't work all the time, it should work much of the time. I think we will get there if we are patient enough.

Again, I will refer people to teams like the Braves and Astros, who are great now, largely (not exclusively) due to a ton of excellent, young, cheap talent that has come up through the farm system. But in order to get to that point, both those teams had to spend a proverbial 40 years in the wilderness to get there. Just look at Houston from 2009-2014 and Atlanta from 2014-2017. Boston is trying to put together the kinds of systems those teams did while simultaneously compete at the MLB level (those two other teams did not remotely compete at the MLB level during those years). It's really tricky.

But I also agree with those who say that ultimately, results matter. We should be seeing this organization turn the corner or Bloom is rightfully in danger of losing his job. The big problem is that just as the Sox are implementing this, every other team in the division is terrific. If the Sox were in almost any other division, we'd likely be looking at a team that's ~10 games over .500 and in first or second place and right in the playoff mix, and we'd be feeling a hell of a lot better about the results and the process. But alas, they're in the AL East.....
Isn’t the schedule balanced now? Why would we be 10 games over in any other division? I’m sure we’d be closer to the top than the bottom in any other division, but record wise wouldn’t we be about the same?
 

Sin Duda

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Seems like leaving the Sox fixed a lot of players, though. Isn’t it fair to wonder why? Like, Dave Bush has been the pitching coach for a while now, and in the organization for a long time, who exactly has he gotten good performances out of?
After Whitlock said postgame that Kluber has been helping him tremendously, the fan in me thought "Fire Bush, hire Kluber" and it improves the pitching by addition and subtraction.
 

8slim

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That's fair, but I'm not sure what available options were better.

I think it comes down to them not thinking one of the mega deals at shortstop was a wise use of $$ given the need to rest + Mayer. Story getting hurt also made things more difficult there, but the names that people throw out as who we should have signed (Iglesias?!?) didn't project to be any better on either side of the ball. I think with Kiké you are hoping the glove carries the bat, at least until Story comes back. Obviously, that's not how it worked out.
I suspect Hernandez was someone who checked off the "on board with the culture change" quota and they needed some holdover. 1 year 10 mill is relative peanuts if they were expecting something between the 4 fWAR from 2021 and last season's flop. If Duran hadn't seized the CF job, I'll bet he would have earned his contract on defense alone. Plugging him at short was something I was an advocate of that just backfired

I actually think the Turner signing backed them into too much of a corner to get a better defense out there, but again they were really emphasizing reestablishing positive vibes from great clubhouse guys. I think he is someone they have to move since he has a player option and he isn't the solution as a DH since the bat won't carry him there. He's the perfect stretch run guy.
I’m certainly not proverbially pounding the table about Kike. I like him and he’s a good guy to have on the team. I just think Bloom and Cora expect too much of him. And I’ll reiterate that I think a bigger problem than pivoting from Story to Kike at SS was thinking that they could roll with Arroyo at 2B. That was sure to backfire.
 

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Isn’t the schedule balanced now? Why would we be 10 games over in any other division? I’m sure we’d be closer to the top than the bottom in any other division, but record wise wouldn’t we be about the same?
It’s more balanced, but not balanced. In other words, teams still play their own division approx twice as many times as non division teams.
 

BaseballJones

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Isn’t the schedule balanced now? Why would we be 10 games over in any other division? I’m sure we’d be closer to the top than the bottom in any other division, but record wise wouldn’t we be about the same?

They've played 19 games out of a total of 64 in the division (29.7%). I forgot about the fact that they now play a more balanced schedule. I guess I was thinking about last year when they went 26-50 (.342) vs. the AL East and 52-34 (.604) vs. everyone else.

And to be 10 games over .500 right now would simply mean having won 5 more games than they currently have. So instead of being 32-32, they'd be 37-27.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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I agree with parts of both sides of this. I think what you have to do as a GM is implement a good program - a good process - for building winning/championship baseball teams. I think Chaim gets it in that the key is having a robust farm system. Clearly he's been working hard at THAT, and we are starting to see the fruit of those labors. You put in a good process and, while it obviously won't work all the time, it should work much of the time. I think we will get there if we are patient enough.

Again, I will refer people to teams like the Braves and Astros, who are great now, largely (not exclusively) due to a ton of excellent, young, cheap talent that has come up through the farm system. But in order to get to that point, both those teams had to spend a proverbial 40 years in the wilderness to get there. Just look at Houston from 2009-2014 and Atlanta from 2014-2017. Boston is trying to put together the kinds of systems those teams did while simultaneously compete at the MLB level (those two other teams did not remotely compete at the MLB level during those years). It's really tricky.

But I also agree with those who say that ultimately, results matter. We should be seeing this organization turn the corner or Bloom is rightfully in danger of losing his job. The big problem is that just as the Sox are implementing this, every other team in the division is terrific. If the Sox were in almost any other division, we'd likely be looking at a team that's ~10 games over .500 and in first or second place and right in the playoff mix, and we'd be feeling a hell of a lot better about the results and the process. But alas, they're in the AL East.....
Good post. But the issue is that, yes… results matter, but results are expected to truly start paying dividends after this season. It’s been said a million times… but it seems to not matter to a lot of posters here- that DD left a pretty impossible situation for long term success.
I personally think Bloom is doing a very good job at both building up a long- term success while trying to compete (and also not hamstringing the team to bad long term contracts just to get a “star”). Opinions on this vary to wide degrees and arguing about it is the point of this board, no?
The level of critique and reflection is expected to be high here and IMO it hasn’t been of Bloom. But additionally, the people saying that Bloom defenders “shout down” opposing viewpoints isn’t lining up. I see arguments defending Bloom and parrying Bloom attacks (some are good thoughtfully articulated attacks… others just simply aren’t. They’re drive-by EEI caller types) and that’s fine. It’s good. But it seems being called out to provide evidence or at least consideration or having one’s opinions questioned here suddenly is being called “Bloom Loyalists”.
 

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Well, here’s the problem with that original post and why the Chaim threads always go off the rails. People who criticize Chaim are being called “pink hats” or trolls at worse, as if there are no valid criticisms of Chaim. There is a strong implication that they know less about baseball than those defending Chaim.
I think I made it clear there were valid criticisms of Bloom, but that one shouldn't confuse people who push back on specific bullshit criticisms with blindly defending the man.

I think - I don’t want to put words in anyone’s mouth, but this is what it seems like to me, the rare “person who’s somewhere in the middle” on Bloom - the disconnect is in evaluating process vs. evaluating results. It seems like a lot of people who defend Bloom would note that his process has been sound, and I’m inclined to agree that most of his moves have been defensible on some level. And he’s gotten some good results! 2021 as a whole, and some individual successes as well. And it’s maybe worthy noting that the same process that brought Kluber 2023 also brought in Wacha 2022. (And Perez, Richards, etc.)

But, on the other hand, it’s a results-oriented business; there’s no trophy for “most sensible use of resources” or whatever, so I do think that if the overall on-field results don’t turn around, he may go regardless. But coaches/Cora would probably go first, I would suspect.
As others have said, this is a very good post. In fact, I suspect most of the people who are accused of partisanship re: Bloom are actually in the middle.

Personally, I think Bloom's roster building has been a mixed bag, but somewhat predictably so. If you want to get a Schreiber, you have to put a few Orts out there and see what sticks. (And maybe Ort will become a decent relief pitcher.) If you want to find an Arroyo, you have to field a few Changs. If you want to promote a prospect, pitching or hitting, you have to give them room to develop. I understand why people are impatient with that. Basically, it's hard to be competitive when you're constantly auditioning "-" players in search of a "+". (And I don't think Cora's particularly good with folding in weaker players -particularly pitchers-, which is ultimately on Bloom.)

On the other hand, I think Bloom has shown a lot of discipline in looking for those "+" players while developing the minors and holding onto prospects. He's got one crappy contract he inherited and can't do much about - Sale. He's got a few long term contracts that look solid - Devers and Yoshida. And a maybe long-term contract with Story. He's got a handful of 2 year contracts for good bets for veteran production - Jansen, Martin, Turner. And some 1 year bridge contracts - Duvall, Kluber. I think the plan was (and is) quite clearly to plug holes at the ML level while letting the minors play out.

However, what I find most troubling about the club is the development of younger players and their transitioning to the ML club. It seems like there's a lot of regression that happens, on and off, in multiple areas - pitching batting, defense, etc. Consistently solid seasons by multiple players in the: Dalbec, Casas, Duran, Wong, Houck, Whitlock, Bello, Valdez group would probably change my impression there. I mean that crew has hardly been a disaster, but with the exception of early-season Duran, they haven't really set the world afire, this year even if brief stretches. And Houck and Whitlock are 27 - not exactly fresh off the farm. So I'm not sure that this idea of "holding the line" with short term contracts really is going to work unless talent actually comes up from the minors - then you grab primo FAs and you have a competitive window open. In particular, the development of pitching in the high minors and its transition to the ML club looks chaotic, for all that injuries forced some situations, and there have been successes there.

I think the success stories of Duran and Winckowski working hard in the off-season (absent input from the pitching/coaching staff? and taking a new approach) sort of cement this impression of a less-than-first-class org. development machine for me. (Plus Dalbec's resurgence when Schwarber retooled his swing for him.) I'll concede that there are AAAA players who can't be coached up to ML play, no matter what. I'll also concede there are going to be rando hits and misses with prospects with some overachieving, and some underachieving. But these are examples of guys who really upped their game to their potential by not following the .org plan (whatever that was.) Also, two years of flat-footed floundering starts out of spring training haven't helped sell this idea that the org. is on top of things.

To the extent Bloom chose Cora and approved the coaches, and has input/oversight on what's emphasized as an organizational approach (e.g., launch angle, base running) that's on Bloom.

To the extent Bloom has imput/oversight on the org. in terms of developing the MiL players, that's also on Bloom.

For me, the only move this year that just totally doesn't make sense is the Jansen contract, it seems like a really strange use of assets given the desire to be under the cap this year. Not getting under the cap last year was bad too, but we obviously have no idea what the options were.
Basically I view the Jansen/Martin contracts as buying development time for the younger arms in the org. Maybe you pay a bit more for that.

Last year's pen was one of the worst performing aspects of the club. It had to be addressed, but there weren't a lot of internal options (Ward? Ort? Darwinzon? Bazardo? Danish? Valdez?) unless they wanted to go fishing on the waiver wire or repurpose the younger prime org. arms (Houck/Whitlock/Bello/Mata/Crawford/Winckowski/Murphy) as dedicated bullpen pitchers.

It seems the Sox clearly wanted the younger cost-controlled arms to try out as starters. (Which is rational.) So instead of trying to develop the 2022 cast of bullpen arms, they jettisoned them and brought in Jansen, Martin, Mills, and Rodriguez to stabilize the pen. It was the first thing they did in the off-season: https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2023-transactions.shtml

Jansen and Martin are on 2 year contracts. I think the plan was to see if any AAA arms like Ort/Brasier plus any likely wire grabs could stick in the pen under the Jansen/Martin/Schreiber umbrella, while starting Hock/Whitlock. But Mills and Rodriguez were injured and Winckowski pitched his brains out in ST and so was almost ready "too early" - but they had a full compliment of starters, so put they put Winckowski in as long relief at the ML level to see if his revamped approach had made the difference.




PS - they're $11M under the Tax threshold for 2023 per Cots. View: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WWRsQNsGZkWuJZwlY8--xVBXMJGjh230D45KiHTHuvY/edit#gid=1520401900


So they spent pretty close to the line and left a bit of room to upgrade a contract or two if they're buyers at the deadline.
 
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8slim

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They've played 19 games out of a total of 64 in the division (29.7%). I forgot about the fact that they now play a more balanced schedule. I guess I was thinking about last year when they went 26-50 (.342) vs. the AL East and 52-34 (.604) vs. everyone else.

And to be 10 games over .500 right now would simply mean having won 5 more games than they currently have. So instead of being 32-32, they'd be 37-27.
And that’s fine, but the Sox *are* in the AL East. That has to be a major consideration for those running the franchise. It’s not bad luck that every other team in the division is good… we’ve seen that coming for years. And there’s now 3 wild card spots available to mitigate being in a tough division.

I don’t find the “last place” stuff people complain about to be all that compelling, because not all last places are created equal. However, the schedule is more balanced now in regards to both divisional play and inter league play. So I don’t find alternate reality records compelling either.
 

grimshaw

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And that’s fine, but the Sox *are* in the AL East. That has to be a major consideration for those running the franchise. It’s not bad luck that every other team in the division is good… we’ve seen that coming for years. And there’s now 3 wild card spots available to mitigate being in a tough division.

I don’t find the “last place” stuff people complain about to be all that compelling, because not all last places are created equal. However, the schedule is more balanced now in regards to both divisional play and inter league play. So I don’t find alternate reality records compelling either.
Agreed, and perhaps this also factors into the glacial rebuild. They have to pounce when they have the resources to and the cap room to plug major holes. They have a chance to at least climb ahead of the Jays in the next few years because they are close to maxed out on payroll and missed badly this offseason. But then you have the O's who ought to be very aggressive for Ohtani since their window has arrived.

It's not getting any easier the next several seasons.
 

Yo La Tengo

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But, on the other hand, it’s a results-oriented business; there’s no trophy for “most sensible use of resources” or whatever, so I do think that if the overall on-field results don’t turn around, he may go regardless. But coaches/Cora would probably go first, I would suspect.
I wonder how accurately Bloom himself predicted the results last year and thus far this year. It is all about managing expectations and getting buy in. If he told his bosses to expect a .500 team as they develop players, with the hope to compete for a wild card spot, then I think his job is safe. And, if I had to guess, I'd say that was likely the anticipated result for last year and this year.

So, he gets fired if the team fails to start to win during the "target season" which I have to assume is next year, right?
 

chawson

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I’m certainly not proverbially pounding the table about Kike. I like him and he’s a good guy to have on the team. I just think Bloom and Cora expect too much of him. And I’ll reiterate that I think a bigger problem than pivoting from Story to Kike at SS was thinking that they could roll with Arroyo at 2B. That was sure to backfire.
I think they went into the season relying on Kiké because he was a 5-win player in 2021 who had a freak injury last season.

As a full-time CF (and only 31), it seems reasonable to think he’d bounce back. He hasn’t, though his struggles at the plate could be related to learning a new position. Shortstop certainly seems harder for him, and he could be pressing, but it’s mostly time to move on.

Shortstop prices were pretty outrageous last winter. Once Xander signed with San Diego, Bloom had a choice between these two depth charts.

Option A
CF - Kiké, Duran
SS - Player X (signing or trade), Story (in July)

Option B
CF - Duvall, Duran, Tapia
SS - Kiké, Mondesi, Chang, Story (in July)

Now, there are a lot of variations on who Player X could have been. Some of the non-superstar options ones we pined for have been total duds (Rojas, Wendle, Andrus, Iglesias, Rosario, Tim Anderson). Others have been decent (Mateo, Kim, DeJong), but who knows how available they ever were.

In any case, it really isn’t clear who the correct choice was. The fact that Yu Chang—a guy who went 0 for 18 to start the season and logged all of 47 PAs—currently ranks 29th of 50 eligible shortstops in fWAR (min. 40 PA, I’m making a point) illustrates how much of a crapshoot it is to find a decent shortstop. Kiké hasn’t panned out, but he was as good a guess as any.

To be clear, my preference last winter was to sign Correa and sort out the rest later. But that aside, Option B seems much better to me than Option A. It also suggests that the FO thinks this:

• They believe in Duran and don’t want to block him in 2023
• They believe that Story is a shortstop, at least until Mayer arrives
• They like Houck as a starter, or at least not a trade chip
• They thought Mondesi and Chang were decent fallbacks

I think the Bloom and co. have so far been justified about two of those things. Mondesi hasn’t improved, which is too bad. Chang looked good after the slow start, and played a terrific shortstop. It’s too bad he got hurt, but he’s back soon. We’ll see about Story.

I just don’t see any evidence of mismanagement or malfeasance.
 

8slim

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I think they went into the season relying on Kiké because he was a 5-win player in 2021 who had a freak injury last season.

As a full-time CF (and only 31), it seems reasonable to think he’d bounce back. He hasn’t, though his struggles at the plate could be related to learning a new position. Shortstop certainly seems harder for him, and he could be pressing, but it’s mostly time to move on.

Shortstop prices were pretty outrageous last winter. Once Xander signed with San Diego, Bloom had a choice between these two depth charts.

Option A
CF - Kiké, Duran
SS - Player X (signing or trade), Story (in July)

Option B
CF - Duvall, Duran, Tapia
SS - Kiké, Mondesi, Chang, Story (in July)

Now, there are a lot of variations on who Player X could have been. Some of the non-superstar options ones we pined for have been total duds (Rojas, Wendle, Andrus, Iglesias, Rosario, Tim Anderson). Others have been decent (Mateo, Kim, DeJong), but who knows how available they ever were.

In any case, it really isn’t clear who the correct choice was. The fact that Yu Chang—a guy who went 0 for 18 to start the season and logged all of 47 PAs—currently ranks 29th of 50 eligible shortstops in fWAR (min. 40 PA, I’m making a point) illustrates how much of a crapshoot it is to find a decent shortstop. Kiké hasn’t panned out, but he was as good a guess as any.

To be clear, my preference last winter was to sign Correa and sort out the rest later. But that aside, Option B seems much better to me than Option A. It also suggests that the FO thinks this:

• They believe in Duran and don’t want to block him in 2023
• They believe that Story is a shortstop, at least until Mayer arrives
• They like Houck as a starter, or at least not a trade chip
• They thought Mondesi and Chang were decent fallbacks

I think the Bloom and co. have so far been justified about two of those things. Mondesi hasn’t improved, which is too bad. Chang looked good after the slow start, and played a terrific shortstop. It’s too bad he got hurt, but he’s back soon. We’ll see about Story.

I just don’t see any evidence of mismanagement or malfeasance.
2021 was such an outlier season for Kike. He hadn’t come within 1.5 wins of 5 in his career. I just don’t see how anyone could bank on him repeating that performance. Especially coming off an injury and now being firmly on the other side of 30.

Again though, I get why the combo of the Story surgery and having Mayer in the system made them reluctant to sign a SS. I was fine with them putting Kike at SS *but* then they needed to sign a real 2Bman. That was mismanagement IMHO.
 

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I wonder how accurately Bloom himself predicted the results last year and thus far this year. It is all about managing expectations and getting buy in. If he told his bosses to expect a .500 team as they develop players, with the hope to compete for a wild card spot, then I think his job is safe. And, if I had to guess, I'd say that was likely the anticipated result for last year and this year.

So, he gets fired if the team fails to start to win during the "target season" which I have to assume is next year, right?
I would guess this is right. Have a .500ish team with a chance of a 2021 type season if everything breaks right.
I think we’ll get a good idea of their expectations for 2024 based on next offseason, including Bloom’s contract situation.
 

chawson

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Again though, I get why the combo of the Story surgery and having Mayer in the system made them reluctant to sign a SS. I was fine with them putting Kike at SS *but* then they needed to sign a real 2Bman. That was mismanagement IMHO.
Okay, who? Segura is hitting .188/.260/.215. Kolten Wong, Josh Harrison, Elvis Andrus and Aledmys Diaz have been worse. Jace Peterson and Adam Frazier have played about as well as Valdez. I liked the idea of grabbing Donovan Solano (great contact hitter) but it’s probably telling that the Twins aren’t really playing him at second despite Polanco’s many absences.

Brandon Drury’s been fine, I suppose, but with Valdez, who’s held his own and looked interesting, and Arroyo, who put up a 130 wRC+ over his last 202 PAs last year, I’m not sure spending real money on Drury is worth it.
 

8slim

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Okay, who? Segura is hitting .188/.260/.215. Kolten Wong, Josh Harrison, Elvis Andrus and Aledmys Diaz have been worse. Jace Peterson and Adam Frazier have played about as well as Valdez. I liked the idea of grabbing Donovan Solano (great contact hitter) but it’s probably telling that the Twins aren’t really playing him at second despite Polanco’s many absences.

Brandon Drury’s been fine, I suppose, but with Valdez, who’s held his own and looked interesting, and Arroyo, who put up a 130 wRC+ over his last 202 PAs last year, I’m not sure spending real money on Drury is worth it.
I don’t understand how people can handwave away JD’s resurgence in LA, and at the same time say that because a guy isn’t performing great 60 games into this season it justifies the Sox not signing him.

Situations and circumstances matter.

The Sox should have found a real 2B for this season when they decided that Story was going to be Xs replacement. That’s literally Bloom’s job.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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The Sox should have found a real 2B for this season when they decided that Story was going to be Xs replacement. That’s literally Bloom’s job.
Pretty sure Bloom felt they had a "real 2B" for this season with Arroyo backed up by the same combination of middle infield depth as Kike at SS: Chang, Valdez, etc. You can disagree with his choice, but don't imply that he failed to do his job because it wasn't to your satisfaction.
 

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I don’t understand how people can handwave away JD’s resurgence in LA, and at the same time say that because a guy isn’t performing great 60 games into this season it justifies the Sox not signing him.
You can if you think Story is going to be back fairly soon. Any signing was really just for the first half of the season, so guys you could have obtained who started out cold aren't any more useful than Valdez.
 

chrisfont9

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Pretty sure Bloom felt they had a "real 2B" for this season with Arroyo backed up by the same combination of middle infield depth as Kike at SS: Chang, Valdez, etc. You can disagree with his choice, but don't imply that he failed to do his job because it wasn't to your satisfaction.
Chang was a great pickup, I thought he was an ideal fit. It's maddening that he broke his hand, that all our injuries are up the middle, that we have replacement replacements dragging things down. But as to the astute observation above, the process was correct, it just didn't get the results -- out of pure bad luck, in Chang's case.
 

chawson

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I don’t understand how people can handwave away JD’s resurgence in LA, and at the same time say that because a guy isn’t performing great 60 games into this season it justifies the Sox not signing him.

Situations and circumstances matter.

The Sox should have found a real 2B for this season when they decided that Story was going to be Xs replacement. That’s literally Bloom’s job.
Not handwaving away his resurgence, not trying to get a laugh, don’t want anyone to have the worst day at their job, but I don’t think it’s guaranteed that JDM would be as productive here as he has been in L.A. He’s reunited with (now Dodgers hitting coach) Robert Van Scoyoc, who he credits for getting him back on track. Also, we’ll see how long it lasts. His contact rate is lower than it’s ever been.

I think Turner and JDM’s lines will ultimately look fairly similar, but the big reason we signed the former is that he can play a credible first base. Casas was ready, but fairly injury-plagued coming into this year. Signing Turner as a DH/1B seems to me a lot better than re-signing JDM and wasting a roster spot on Hosmer or another backup 1B (Aguilar, Mancini, Myers).
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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I do think if the team doesn’t make the playoffs in ‘24 then yeah, Bloom is likely done despite that I think the fruit of his work is likely to be ripe between ‘25-‘29.
And honestly I think he’s put together a better team than in ‘21 (which had X, JDM, Wacha and Eovaldi all whom posters here apparently all think would make this years team better)
 

jon abbey

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But then you have the O's who ought to be very aggressive for Ohtani since their window has arrived.
No AL East team is signing Ohtani, not BAL, not BOS, not NYY, not the other two either. Feel free to bookmark this and mock me if it happens, but it won't.

LAD, probably SDP and NYM are going to go nuts for him, are any of those AL East teams willing to go to 12/660 for him? Why would anyone think any of the AL East teams has any chance of outbidding Steve Cohen, or even the Padres for that matter, who have shown they have no limits on spending?

And all that is assuming Ohtani has any interest in leaving the West Coast, where he was set on going during his initial free agency (although he did at least take an interview with the Cubs then)? Not to pick on your post, but this runs through my mind anytime I see the possibility of him coming to an AL East team, so now I've posted it.

But the main point is a good one, it's impossible to find a window in the AL East because teams aren't just loaded currently, many of them are additionally loaded with more stud prospects on the way up.
 

Benj4ever

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I do think if the team doesn’t make the playoffs in ‘24 then yeah, Bloom is likely done despite that I think the fruit of his work is likely to be ripe between ‘25-‘29.
And honestly I think he’s put together a better team than in ‘21 (which had X, JDM, Wacha and Eovaldi all whom posters here apparently all think would make this years team better)
Agreed. Given the number of youthful pieces we have (Bello, Crawford, Houck, Winckowski, AAA starters, Casas, and Duran), we should be able to make the playoffs next year. Whit and Wong are pivotal pieces. If Whit can show he's a top of the rotation guy, and Wong continues to improve as a hitter, this team is a definite contender next year. Add Mayer in 2025, and the picture looks even brighter.
 

E5 Yaz

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No AL East team is signing Ohtani, not BAL, not BOS, not NYY, not the other two either. Feel free to bookmark this and mock me if it happens, but it won't.

LAD, probably SDP and NYM are going to go nuts for him, are any of those AL East teams willing to go to 12/660 for him? Why would anyone think any of the AL East teams has any chance of outbidding Steve Cohen, or even the Padres for that matter, who have shown they have no limits on spending?

And all that is assuming Ohtani has any interest in leaving the West Coast, where he was set on going during his initial free agency (although he did at least take an interview with the Cubs then)? Not to pick on your post, but this runs through my mind anytime I see the possibility of him coming to an AL East team, so now I've posted it.

But the main point is a good one, it's impossible to find a window in the AL East because teams aren't just loaded currently, many of them are additionally loaded with more stud prospects on the way up.
I'd add Seattle to your list but, otherwise, I agree with your assessment
 

NickEsasky

Please Hammer, Don't Hurt 'Em
Silver Supporter
SoSH Member
Jul 24, 2001
9,306
I think what I’m realizing is that I’m not anti-Bloom, I’m anti Bloom apologists. Im just tired of reading:
  1. How DD left Bloom with nothing. His drafts weren’t great but he was also screwed by Cheringtons bad drafts. The guys up and contributing right now are generally DD’s guys. He also didn’t trade anyone of real value that we miss. That’s a win.

  2. About how injures are just bad luck when Chaim signs guys with injury question marks. Including trading for a guy coming off ACL surgery who hasn’t been heard from at all despite it now
  3. What great value Paxton is providing this year. Sure if you ignore that he was paid $10m last year to do nothing. Paxton easily could have declined and we’d be left with nothing but $10m lit on fire

  4. The prospects burning up the system. Not a huge criticism here as there are a few guys to get excited about. That said, I’ve been here for over 20 years and watched countless prospects get hyped but only to flame out with no value to the big league club.

  5. Bad luck of the division. Yeah life would be easier in the AL Central but the Red Sox managed to compete pretty well in the division over the last 20 years

  6. You need to suffer to compete. Sure Houston and Atlanta had some bad years but they also drafted and developed incredibly well something the Red Sox haven’t done as well. We also finished last in the division multiple times with Mayer to show for it
I feel like too many people here want to hand wave away Bloom’s bad decisions and cite limited sample sizes as successes (Yoshida) while citing SSS on guys who left and are succeeding or ignoring age or injury history then chalking up that guy getting injured as only bad luck. Or just today someone saying Kluber what can you do am I right? Like no. He stinks and he’s making good money. You don’t just to say aw shucks. You can’t have it both ways.
 

Auger34

used to be tbb
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2010
11,187
I think what I’m realizing is that I’m not anti-Bloom, I’m anti Bloom apologists. Im just tired of reading:
  1. How DD left Bloom with nothing. His drafts weren’t great but he was also screwed by Cheringtons bad drafts. The guys up and contributing right now are generally DD’s guys. He also didn’t trade anyone of real value that we miss. That’s a win.

  2. About how injures are just bad luck when Chaim signs guys with injury question marks. Including trading for a guy coming off ACL surgery who hasn’t been heard from at all despite it now
  3. What great value Paxton is providing this year. Sure if you ignore that he was paid $10m last year to do nothing. Paxton easily could have declined and we’d be left with nothing but $10m lit on fire

  4. The prospects burning up the system. Not a huge criticism here as there are a few guys to get excited about. That said, I’ve been here for over 20 years and watched countless prospects get hyped but only to flame out with no value to the big league club.

  5. Bad luck of the division. Yeah life would be easier in the AL Central but the Red Sox managed to compete pretty well in the division over the last 20 years

  6. You need to suffer to compete. Sure Houston and Atlanta had some bad years but they also drafted and developed incredibly well something the Red Sox haven’t done as well. We also finished last in the division multiple times with Mayer to show for it
I feel like too many people here want to hand wave away Bloom’s bad decisions and cite limited sample sizes as successes (Yoshida) while citing SSS on guys who left and are succeeding or ignoring age or injury history then chalking up that guy getting injured as only bad luck. Or just today someone saying Kluber what can you do am I right? Like no. He stinks and he’s making good money. You don’t just to say aw shucks. You can’t have it both ways.
Now this is a great post.

I don’t agree with all of the 6 things that you cited but I agree with the overall gist. In the last 3 pages of this thread, I’ve counted exactly one criticism of Bloom and it was an incredibly valid one by @8slim. That was quickly dismissed by multiple posters, including one who cited what a great pick up fucking Yu Chang was and how his injury fucked Bloom’s plan….that doesn’t seem like “down the middle” to me
 

jmanny24

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 6, 2003
651
I think what I’m realizing is that I’m not anti-Bloom, I’m anti Bloom apologists. Im just tired of reading:
  1. How DD left Bloom with nothing. His drafts weren’t great but he was also screwed by Cheringtons bad drafts. The guys up and contributing right now are generally DD’s guys. He also didn’t trade anyone of real value that we miss. That’s a win.

  2. About how injures are just bad luck when Chaim signs guys with injury question marks. Including trading for a guy coming off ACL surgery who hasn’t been heard from at all despite it now
  3. What great value Paxton is providing this year. Sure if you ignore that he was paid $10m last year to do nothing. Paxton easily could have declined and we’d be left with nothing but $10m lit on fire

  4. The prospects burning up the system. Not a huge criticism here as there are a few guys to get excited about. That said, I’ve been here for over 20 years and watched countless prospects get hyped but only to flame out with no value to the big league club.

  5. Bad luck of the division. Yeah life would be easier in the AL Central but the Red Sox managed to compete pretty well in the division over the last 20 years

  6. You need to suffer to compete. Sure Houston and Atlanta had some bad years but they also drafted and developed incredibly well something the Red Sox haven’t done as well. We also finished last in the division multiple times with Mayer to show for it
I feel like too many people here want to hand wave away Bloom’s bad decisions and cite limited sample sizes as successes (Yoshida) while citing SSS on guys who left and are succeeding or ignoring age or injury history then chalking up that guy getting injured as only bad luck. Or just today someone saying Kluber what can you do am I right? Like no. He stinks and he’s making good money. You don’t just to say aw shucks. You can’t have it both ways.
I think the Bloom debate boils down to: Anti-Bloom faction is more focused on the MLB level while the pro-Bloom group looks at the process on the entire organization. Both can be right and both can have flaws which is fine but most of Blooms missteps have been at the MLB level and his successes in the minors, and that seems to be where the line has been drawn. I am more of a pro-process guy because I believe the long view leads to a longer window of competing, but I have been somewhat disappointed with the MLB results. But, I also think we should wait until the deadline to see where they're at as they get healthier, there is still 53 days and 43 games until then and they are only 4 games out of a wild card spot.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
25,295
  1. You need to suffer to compete. Sure Houston and Atlanta had some bad years but they also drafted and developed incredibly well something the Red Sox haven’t done as well. We also finished last in the division multiple times with Mayer to show for it
I liked your post overall but this one seems a direct response to something I said.

To be clear, I didn't say you "need to suffer to compete". I pointed out how teams often get to the point of greatness. It's through having a great farm system. Even the Yankees and Dodgers have great systems. Or have had them anyway.

The Sox have finished in last place a few times, for sure, but they've not suffered like the Astros and Braves did. Not even close.

Boston had two bad years in 2014 and 2015, followed by three straight division titles, including the 2018 WS championship team. They had two bad years in a row in 2019 and 2020, but one of those years was an 84 win season - which isn't great, but it's not a catastrophe - and the other was 2020, which a lot of fans just throw out completely. They were good in 2021 and bad in 2022 and appear to be mediocre in 2023. So clearly not a great stretch, but nothing like what the Astros and Braves went through.

And Houston and Atlanta didn't just "have some bad years". They were catastrophes.

Houston
2009: 74 wins
2010: 76 wins
2011: 56 wins
2012: 55 wins
2013: 51 wins
2014: 70 wins
AVG: 64 wins per season

Atlanta
2014: 79 wins
2015: 67 wins
2016: 68 wins
2017: 72 wins
AVG: 72 wins per season

Anything below 70 wins is a catastrophe. Houston was below *60* wins three seasons in a row. Atlanta was below 70 wins in back-to-back seasons. Boston hasn't had anything remotely like that.

Tampa has been good for a while now - they do an unbelievable job with their limited resources. But of course they haven't actually won a World Series yet, and since they've been good (starting in 2008), the Red Sox have actually won two WS titles (zero for TB). Tampa's great system was fueled by a history of ineptitude from their inception through 2007. And even the more recent incarnation of them being really good came on the heels of 4 straight losing seasons:

2014: 77 wins
2015: 80 wins
2016: 68 wins
2017: 80 wins
AVG: 76 wins per season

Obviously 80 wins isn't terrible (though if Boston had 80 wins, we'd all be calling it terrible), but that's still a bad four-year stretch, including one catastrophe.

Toronto is clearly on the rise, but they were terrible for three straight seasons:

2017: 76 wins
2018: 73 wins
2019: 67 wins
AVG: 72 wins per season

Baltimore is a team on the rise as well, but they had been awful for a while:

2017: 75 wins
2018: 47 wins (!!!!)
2019: 54 wins
2020: 25 wins but let's ignore that year
2021: 52 wins
AVG: 57 wins per season not counting 2020

The Phillies made it to the WS last year, but they haven't been good. And from 2013-2017 they were awful.

2013: 73 wins
2014: 73 wins
2015: 63 wins
2016: 71 wins
2017: 66 wins
AVG: 69 wins per season

The Yankees are consistently good, of course. But even they had some "down" years for them, missing the playoffs 3 out of 4 seasons from 2013-2016, averaging 85 wins a year. That's pretty good for "down" years, but I'm sure Yankee fans weren't thrilled with them missing the playoffs three out of four seasons. And they haven't won a WS since 2009.

The Cardinals have been consistently good too. But they also missed the playoffs 3 seasons in a row from 2016-2018, and they haven't won a WS since 2011.

The Dodgers are the gold standard in MLB for consistent excellence. But even they missed the playoffs 3 seasons in a row from 2010-2012. And despite all their excellence, they've won ONE World Series title since 1988, and that was in the bizarro 2020 season.

I don't think you HAVE to be terrible in order to be consistently good, but you do need a good farm system to be consistently good. And for the vast majority of successful franchises, having that good farm system was the fruit of some godawful seasons that let them rebuild and restock.

I think that's exactly where Boston is right now - in that position of rebuilding and restocking the system, which should - if it goes right - produce a constant flow of really nice talent to the major league club. And THAT will give them lots of cost-controlled assets either to play or to trade, and will allow them to spend $$ in areas of need without blowing up the budget.

That's my argument, and I think it's well-reasoned, well-evidenced, and makes a ton of sense. But YMMV.
 

8slim

has trust issues
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Nov 6, 2001
25,695
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Pretty sure Bloom felt they had a "real 2B" for this season with Arroyo backed up by the same combination of middle infield depth as Kike at SS: Chang, Valdez, etc. You can disagree with his choice, but don't imply that he failed to do his job because it wasn't to your satisfaction.
What are we even doing here? I can absolutely say he failed to do his job. Our 2B situation stinks. It wasn’t addressed properly in the off-season. Just because Bloom felt he addressed it doesn’t mean he did. Results matter.

Sometimes I feel like his support comes down to “he has a plan”. I mean, great. Every GM has a plan. Some work, some don’t. Just having one doesn’t mean anything.
 

mauf

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Jun 22, 2008
36,398
I wonder how accurately Bloom himself predicted the results last year and thus far this year. It is all about managing expectations and getting buy in. If he told his bosses to expect a .500 team as they develop players, with the hope to compete for a wild card spot, then I think his job is safe. And, if I had to guess, I'd say that was likely the anticipated result for last year and this year.

So, he gets fired if the team fails to start to win during the "target season" which I have to assume is next year, right?
Coming into the season, I thought Bloom needed another good year on the farm and a .500-ish record for the big club. Those outcomes are well within reach. If I had to lay even money one way or the other on whether Bloom will be the CBO in 2024, I’d bet that he will be. But if the odds were 3-1 or 4-1, I’d take the other side of the bet; his seat is definitely warm.
 

Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat

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I liked your post overall but this one seems a direct response to something I said.

To be clear, I didn't say you "need to suffer to compete". I pointed out how teams often get to the point of greatness. It's through having a great farm system. Even the Yankees and Dodgers have great systems. Or have had them anyway.

The Sox have finished in last place a few times, for sure, but they've not suffered like the Astros and Braves did. Not even close.

Boston had two bad years in 2014 and 2015, followed by three straight division titles, including the 2018 WS championship team. They had two bad years in a row in 2019 and 2020, but one of those years was an 84 win season - which isn't great, but it's not a catastrophe - and the other was 2020, which a lot of fans just throw out completely. They were good in 2021 and bad in 2022 and appear to be mediocre in 2023. So clearly not a great stretch, but nothing like what the Astros and Braves went through.

And Houston and Atlanta didn't just "have some bad years". They were catastrophes.

Houston
2009: 74 wins
2010: 76 wins
2011: 56 wins
2012: 55 wins
2013: 51 wins
2014: 70 wins
AVG: 64 wins per season

Atlanta
2014: 79 wins
2015: 67 wins
2016: 68 wins
2017: 72 wins
AVG: 72 wins per season

Anything below 70 wins is a catastrophe. Houston was below *60* wins three seasons in a row. Atlanta was below 70 wins in back-to-back seasons. Boston hasn't had anything remotely like that.

Tampa has been good for a while now - they do an unbelievable job with their limited resources. But of course they haven't actually won a World Series yet, and since they've been good (starting in 2008), the Red Sox have actually won two WS titles (zero for TB). Tampa's great system was fueled by a history of ineptitude from their inception through 2007. And even the more recent incarnation of them being really good came on the heels of 4 straight losing seasons:

2014: 77 wins
2015: 80 wins
2016: 68 wins
2017: 80 wins
AVG: 76 wins per season

Obviously 80 wins isn't terrible (though if Boston had 80 wins, we'd all be calling it terrible), but that's still a bad four-year stretch, including one catastrophe.

Toronto is clearly on the rise, but they were terrible for three straight seasons:

2017: 76 wins
2018: 73 wins
2019: 67 wins
AVG: 72 wins per season

Baltimore is a team on the rise as well, but they had been awful for a while:

2017: 75 wins
2018: 47 wins (!!!!)
2019: 54 wins
2020: 25 wins but let's ignore that year
2021: 52 wins
AVG: 57 wins per season not counting 2020

The Phillies made it to the WS last year, but they haven't been good. And from 2013-2017 they were awful.

2013: 73 wins
2014: 73 wins
2015: 63 wins
2016: 71 wins
2017: 66 wins
AVG: 69 wins per season

The Yankees are consistently good, of course. But even they had some "down" years for them, missing the playoffs 3 out of 4 seasons from 2013-2016, averaging 85 wins a year. That's pretty good for "down" years, but I'm sure Yankee fans weren't thrilled with them missing the playoffs three out of four seasons. And they haven't won a WS since 2009.

The Cardinals have been consistently good too. But they also missed the playoffs 3 seasons in a row from 2016-2018, and they haven't won a WS since 2011.

The Dodgers are the gold standard in MLB for consistent excellence. But even they missed the playoffs 3 seasons in a row from 2010-2012. And despite all their excellence, they've won ONE World Series title since 1988, and that was in the bizarro 2020 season.

I don't think you HAVE to be terrible in order to be consistently good, but you do need a good farm system to be consistently good. And for the vast majority of successful franchises, having that good farm system was the fruit of some godawful seasons that let them rebuild and restock.

I think that's exactly where Boston is right now - in that position of rebuilding and restocking the system, which should - if it goes right - produce a constant flow of really nice talent to the major league club. And THAT will give them lots of cost-controlled assets either to play or to trade, and will allow them to spend $$ in areas of need without blowing up the budget.

That's my argument, and I think it's well-reasoned, well-evidenced, and makes a ton of sense. But YMMV.
Washington is sort of another interesting team to look at, in my opinion. They won the World Series in 2019, and have totally gutted the team since then, to start a big rebuild. They aren’t exactly a small market team, but this seems to be how they operate. In fact, it’s how they got themselves in position to draft Harper and Strasburg. .
 

mikcou

Member
SoSH Member
May 13, 2007
932
Boston
What are we even doing here? I can absolutely say he failed to do his job. Our 2B situation stinks. It wasn’t addressed properly in the off-season. Just because Bloom felt he addressed it doesn’t mean he did. Results matter.

Sometimes I feel like his support comes down to “he has a plan”. I mean, great. Every GM has a plan. Some work, some don’t. Just having one doesn’t mean anything.
Yeah the middle infield was a botch job, however you want to cut it. Arroyo has never made it through the season healthy - he should be counted on to miss close to half the season. They needed to bring in a legitimate third middle infielder. Instead they tried to make it through with kike and then after Story was injured doubled down by bringing in another completely broken player.

Completely fair to criticize both the outcome and the process here.
 

chrisfont9

Member
SoSH Member
What are we even doing here? I can absolutely say he failed to do his job. Our 2B situation stinks. It wasn’t addressed properly in the off-season. Just because Bloom felt he addressed it doesn’t mean he did. Results matter.

Sometimes I feel like his support comes down to “he has a plan”. I mean, great. Every GM has a plan. Some work, some don’t. Just having one doesn’t mean anything.
So if your 2b gets hurt you fire the GM? I can play nicer here or just sit out the next several rounds of this unbridgeable gap of a debate, but this is where the "was the process OK" vs "I just care about the outcome" debate goes.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 11, 2007
6,724
Bloom has brought in Verdugo (at 27 starting to look like an AS) and Wong (may within a season be a top 5 C in all MLB if he builds off what’s he’s done do far).
Added Schreiber. Winchowski and Pivetta. Got Whitlock. Signed Yoshida. Story. Long term signed Devers. Didn’t deal away Casas, Crawford, Duran.
Building up a good future.
From my POV he’s got a middle infield and outfield and C locked up for the next 5-7 years.
Weakness in the future rotation with a lot of potential arms if they’re patient.
He’s got a logjam at 2B in the mL’s to address future pitching deficiencies.

He needs, IMO, to add one more quality young rotation arm. Get 2 more decent bullpen arms (which I suspect are already in the system) and get a good corner outfielder to rotate with Yoshida.

The Anti-Bloom guys are complaining about injured pitchers but now wanting Wacha and Eovaldi …. Both pitchers with significant injury histories.

Again…. IMO the team is BETTER this year than last year (despite last years team having X, JDM, Wacha, Eovaldi…. All guys that suddenly posters here are believing would somehow have made this season’s team better) while also better constructed for the future than last year’s team.
 

Philip Jeff Frye

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 23, 2001
10,403
So if your 2b gets hurt you fire the GM? I can play nicer here or just sit out the next several rounds of this unbridgeable gap of a debate, but this is where the "was the process OK" vs "I just care about the outcome" debate goes.
But the process was not okay. Relying on a full season from injury prone Christian Arroyo, who has never been able to play a full season without getting hurt, is not a good plan before a single game is played. Signing Trevor Story, whom apparently everyone in baseball knew had a ticking time bomb in his elbow, is not a good plan before a single game is played. Replacing him with an already injured Adalberto Mondesí is not a good plan before a single game is played. Being forced to move Kike Hernandez from center, where has value, to middle infield, where he does not, is not a good plan before a single game is played.

People were raising these points in the winter. These are not just second guesses because the results have been poor.
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
72,272
Washington is sort of another interesting team to look at, in my opinion. They won the World Series in 2019, and have totally gutted the team since then, to start a big rebuild. They aren’t exactly a small market team, but this seems to be how they operate. In fact, it’s how they got themselves in position to draft Harper and Strasburg. .
They didn't intend to gut the team, they just couldn't afford to keep most of their superstars. They did sign Strasburg to a giant deal (yikes), they still are paying Corbin a lot (also yikes), and they offered Soto $440M to stay. When he turned that down, they had no choice but to deal him.
 

Mueller's Twin Grannies

critical thinker
SoSH Member
Dec 19, 2009
9,402
Random sidetrack, but I think Ohtani has played enough MLB baseball and traveled the US to no longer be as adamant about being on the West Coast. I'll go a step further and say that he wants to win, which prohibitively excludes almost all the West Coast teams save maybe SD and LA.

The Giants stink. The Rockies stink. The Diamondbacks stink. The Angels stink. The Mariners stink. The Athletics are moving and are putrid. Going inland a little, the Astros won't pay him, the Rangers might (depending how this season goes), and the Brewers are meh and probably won't pay him.

The last 10 World Series Champions are:
Astros
Braves
Dodgers
Nationals
Red Sox
Astros*
Royals
Cubs
Giants
Red Sox

There's two West Coast teams in that group, one who won in a shortened season and one that isn't going anywhere soon.

To me, and probably Ohtani's agent, it's move and win or stay and continue to lose. The Padres are the wild card and I could see him going there IF they have the money to spend. I think he's bound for the East Coast whether he ultimately likes it or not.
 
Last edited:

chawson

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
4,683
What are we even doing here? I can absolutely say he failed to do his job. Our 2B situation stinks. It wasn’t addressed properly in the off-season. Just because Bloom felt he addressed it doesn’t mean he did. Results matter.

Sometimes I feel like his support comes down to “he has a plan”. I mean, great. Every GM has a plan. Some work, some don’t. Just having one doesn’t mean anything.
Okay man, who? Use the benefit of hindsight, and tell us who Bloom should have acquired to play second base last winter.
 

Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat

has big, douchey shoulders
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
They didn't intend to gut the team, they just couldn't afford to keep most of their superstars. They did sign Strasburg to a giant deal (yikes), they still are paying Corbin a lot (also yikes), and they offered Soto $440M to stay. When he turned that down, they had no choice but to deal him.
They also traded Scherzer and Trea, Schwarber, Bell, among others. Maybe gutting the team wasn’t their original plan, but at a certain point they certainly decided that they didn’t care about competing while they rebuilt. And it isn’t like they haven’t bottomed out before.
 

8slim

has trust issues
SoSH Member
Nov 6, 2001
25,695
Unreal America
So if your 2b gets hurt you fire the GM? I can play nicer here or just sit out the next several rounds of this unbridgeable gap of a debate, but this is where the "was the process OK" vs "I just care about the outcome" debate goes.
Please point me to the post where I said Bloom should be fired. I’ll wait.
 

8slim

has trust issues
SoSH Member
Nov 6, 2001
25,695
Unreal America
Okay man, who? Use the benefit of hindsight, and tell us who Bloom should have acquired to play second base last winter.
Ugh, I’m not the GM. And I hate playing the “pretend you’re the GM” game. There’s dozens of 2B strewn across the majors. Finding one that wasn’t already injured would be a good start.
 

Max Power

thai good. you like shirt?
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
8,181
Boston, MA
Ugh, I’m not the GM. And I hate playing the “pretend you’re the GM” game. There’s dozens of 2B strewn across the majors. Finding one that wasn’t already injured would be a good start.
In major league baseball you're no longer allowed to steal other teams' players. They got rid of that in the late 1800s. All the free agent options were no better and often worse than what the Red Sox have gotten from Valdez and Arroyo. So in this case, Chaim was probably right to have not signed anyone.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

Member
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Jan 13, 2021
12,977
Ugh, I’m not the GM. And I hate playing the “pretend you’re the GM” game. There’s dozens of 2B strewn across the majors. Finding one that wasn’t already injured would be a good start.
Yeah, it’s weird that the same group of people who are gaga about the Sox loaded farm system seem to be of the mind that players can only be acquired free agency. Turn some of our assets into players that can help now.
 

simplicio

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 11, 2012
5,923
I think what I’m realizing is that I’m not anti-Bloom, I’m anti Bloom apologists. Im just tired of reading:
  1. How DD left Bloom with nothing. His drafts weren’t great but he was also screwed by Cheringtons bad drafts. The guys up and contributing right now are generally DD’s guys. He also didn’t trade anyone of real value that we miss. That’s a win.

  2. About how injures are just bad luck when Chaim signs guys with injury question marks. Including trading for a guy coming off ACL surgery who hasn’t been heard from at all despite it now
  3. What great value Paxton is providing this year. Sure if you ignore that he was paid $10m last year to do nothing. Paxton easily could have declined and we’d be left with nothing but $10m lit on fire

  4. The prospects burning up the system. Not a huge criticism here as there are a few guys to get excited about. That said, I’ve been here for over 20 years and watched countless prospects get hyped but only to flame out with no value to the big league club.

  5. Bad luck of the division. Yeah life would be easier in the AL Central but the Red Sox managed to compete pretty well in the division over the last 20 years

  6. You need to suffer to compete. Sure Houston and Atlanta had some bad years but they also drafted and developed incredibly well something the Red Sox haven’t done as well. We also finished last in the division multiple times with Mayer to show for it
I feel like too many people here want to hand wave away Bloom’s bad decisions and cite limited sample sizes as successes (Yoshida) while citing SSS on guys who left and are succeeding or ignoring age or injury history then chalking up that guy getting injured as only bad luck. Or just today someone saying Kluber what can you do am I right? Like no. He stinks and he’s making good money. You don’t just to say aw shucks. You can’t have it both ways.
1. Fangraph's 2019 farm system rankings:65831

2. I think there's a huge difference between guys with predictive injury histories and just injuries happening, but the fire Bloom crowd likes to conflate those (when expedient). Like I'm not remotely surprised if/when people like Mondesi, Arroyo, Paxton and Sale get injured, but it also didn't have anything to do with the FO's judgement that Sale took a liner off the hand and fell off his bike last year.
Fwiw, I was very happy not to re-sign Wacha and Eovaldi last year cause both have had awful injury histories in recent years and it didn't seem worth spending a lot of money to buy more of that for years to come. But since both had a great month in May, I guess we don't actually care about that sort of thing after all and let's fire Bloom?

3. Paxton's 2022 deal was a really smart hedge signed around the lockout at a time when nobody knew how much if any baseball would be played. It combined his known recovery time with potentially missed games and would have been prorated for a shortened season. And if he can continue his current performance (yes, that's an if) for the full season, even 1/14 is a bargain.

4. Why did you even make this point? You're "anti-Bloom apologists," and one of the things you don't like about them is that they're excited about promising prospects and the best farm system we've had years? I don't get it.

5. That's fair enough, it doesn't really make sense to wish ourselves into the Central cause the divisional system is what it is, but I also think it's valid to feel shortchanged by it, cause at the end of the season it means the most deserving teams aren't necessarily going to the playoffs.

6. BaseballJones covered this in great detail, but also, last in the division doesn't necessarily mean a great draft position. And also, when you write "We also finished last in the division multiple times with Mayer to show for it" I'm unclear on whether you mean we should have more than Mayer to show for it, or what. I'm also very confused about what this point has to do with Bloom, given that the prospects he drafted haven't graduated yet.
 

jmanny24

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 6, 2003
651
Yeah, it’s weird that the same group of people who are gaga about the Sox loaded farm system seem to be of the mind that players can only be acquired free agency. Turn some of our assets into players that can help now.
I think part of the problem with that is that fanbases overrate their own prospects (no matter how good they are) so getting "fair value" in their eyes. It's kinda like the Jaylen Brown situation people want to get rid of him but getting "fair value" for him will also be difficult in their eyes because they rate him so highly no matter how disgusted they are with his flaws.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
25,295
Yeah, it’s weird that the same group of people who are gaga about the Sox loaded farm system seem to be of the mind that players can only be acquired free agency. Turn some of our assets into players that can help now.
Easy to say (and I'm sympathetic to the argument of turning prospects into legit MLB players via trade), but harder to do. Who would you have traded, and who do you think would possibly have come back in return?

If the Sox see Devers as the long term answer at 3b, and Story as the long term answer at 2b, and Mayer as the long term answer at SS, who would you have traded FOR to play 2b for Boston in 2023?

It's fine to trade for a stopgap for 2023, but if they had the view of the infield as I just outlined above, they would only be trading for a stopgap. In other words, for a guy who's probably not that great. Who do you think was out there, and what would have been a reasonable trade offer for Boston to make? You don't want to deal Yorke for a stopgap. And moreover, how big of a difference would a stopgap at 2b or SS have made for this year?
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

has fancy plans, and pants to match
Dope
SoSH Member
Apr 12, 2001
24,877
In major league baseball you're no longer allowed to steal other teams' players. They got rid of that in the late 1800s. All the free agent options were no better and often worse than what the Red Sox have gotten from Valdez and Arroyo. So in this case, Chaim was probably right to have not signed anyone.
In Major League Baseball you’re allowed to “trade” ball players from one club to another. For example if one club has an ample amount of infielders they can send, or trade, that player’s contract to another club for another player. This other player can be on either the major league roster or in that club’s minor league. As long as that player has signed a contract with that club he can be sent to another club.

This system of trading has been a fairly popular tradition since the late 1870s. I’m surprised you haven’t come across it.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 13, 2021
12,977
Easy to say (and I'm sympathetic to the argument of turning prospects into legit MLB players via trade), but harder to do. Who would you have traded, and who do you think would possibly have come back in return?

If the Sox see Devers as the long term answer at 3b, and Story as the long term answer at 2b, and Mayer as the long term answer at SS, who would you have traded FOR to play 2b for Boston in 2023?

It's fine to trade for a stopgap for 2023, but if they had the view of the infield as I just outlined above, they would only be trading for a stopgap. In other words, for a guy who's probably not that great. Who do you think was out there, and what would have been a reasonable trade offer for Boston to make? You don't want to deal Yorke for a stopgap. And moreover, how big of a difference would a stopgap at 2b or SS have made for this year?
Well, I would have signed Jean Segura and Jose Abreu and been fired weeks ago.
 
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