Heyman says Lackey/Corey Littrell to Cardinals for Kelly/Craig
- Thread starter MakMan44
- Start date
How does a guy like Kelly only strike out 6 guys per 9? with 3 BBs? Even last year, with his 2.69 ERA he was only a 0.5 WAR player over 124 innings. I guess he could be a decent #4/5 guy in the AL, but isn't that what our organization is already full of? It will be fun seeing all of the AAA opening day rotation up next week though.
DennyDoyle'sBoil said:
I do think Craig's contract is better than what you'd pay for similar players out there right now, so I think that has some attractiveness for the Sox. I also think that given the depth of pitching in Pawtucket, and what you generally see from development, there's a chance you see 1-2 of those guys end up as 2-3 win pitchers at a much lower cost than Lackey for a significantly longer time period. So I would rather see the Sox take on contracts where they don't have the ability to produce those players going forward. I do think the OF logjam is probably something that will be addressed by the end of the day, otherwise I'm just as confused as you with regards to that aspect of it.
And the Red Sox gave up a prospect as well as money. The Cardinals fleeced us. And how many right-handed bats are we going to have in the starting lineup?
Hopefully Craig falling off the cliff this year is because of the injury. Now that's he's on a team not competing for anything, there's no need to have him play hurt.
If need be, have him take the rest of the year off to make sure he's ready for Fort Myers in February.
If need be, have him take the rest of the year off to make sure he's ready for Fort Myers in February.
Craig has had a terrible year, but if he returns to form he is one of the best contracts in baseball. Given that Lackey was going to essentially hold out next year anyway, I am a fan of this lottery ticket. We just have to hope this isn't one of those Mujica deals where the Cards know more about Craig than the Sox do...
Still, with this contract and Craig's history, I like this lotto ticket over any prospect the Sox were realistically going to get a shot at.
Still, with this contract and Craig's history, I like this lotto ticket over any prospect the Sox were realistically going to get a shot at.
Drek717 said:
Debate is healthy. You aren't debating.
Drawing silly conclusions like worst trade by BC and total failure is insanely premature and downright fanboyish. You have no idea what Craig or Kelly will do based on a ton of factors that include the next 4-5 years. You have no idea what Lackey will do after this season or what will happen to him as he continues to age (hint: he is gonna decline very seriously very soon). Yet, you are still throwing up concrete conclusions because you live in STL.
Give the deal some time and relax.
pokey_reese said:
He doesn't have a viable 3rd pitch. Changeup is weak - he can't throw it for strikes reliably.
He has some heavy stuff though, keeps the ball on the ground. I think he'll play up considerably in the bullpen. Heath Bell type.
Drek717 said:
Since you don't seem willing to try and back up your claims statistically, I'll take bets on both of these. $20 bucks to the Jimmy Fund for each? You win if Kelly is off the 25 man roster to start 2015 and Craig has a .700 or worse OPS for the rest of the season.
Let's sign lackey after next year when he holds out for a team friendly deal.
It's all going according to plan. Huehuehue
It's all going according to plan. Huehuehue
Joshv02 said:
This is the thing to remember when pondering "where these pieces will fit." We're talking about a team that, at present, really sucks at hitting. Get hitters now, figure out the precise fit later. Obviously this is contingent on a healthy Craig. If he can't get right then this move is a bust. Kelly is serviceable, can fill various roles as needed.
Usually, when you're a buyer, you're trading future assets for present value. These two deals are the 2015 Red Sox buying a revitalized middle of the order, except they're trading past assets for present value. Love. It.
Scouting Report on Kelly from Sickels in 2012
Scouting Report on Kelly from anonymous scout for 2013 playoffs:
Gotta wonder if we see a Lowe like usage of him bouncing between the bullpen and rotation for the next few years or if they simply have him focus on one secondary pitch and send him to the pen.
Scouting Report on Kelly from anonymous scout for 2013 playoffs:
Gotta wonder if we see a Lowe like usage of him bouncing between the bullpen and rotation for the next few years or if they simply have him focus on one secondary pitch and send him to the pen.
Cespedes is under contract next year for not much. Craig is around long term. Bradley, XB, Betts, Vaz, etc are cheap.
They are assembling a team for 2015 and the next several years that has quality all over the place if lower peaks and $$ flexibility to make things happen. We are seeing the building of a team rather than acquisition of a single player or two.
Grabbing elite prospects was presumably never on the table.
They are assembling a team for 2015 and the next several years that has quality all over the place if lower peaks and $$ flexibility to make things happen. We are seeing the building of a team rather than acquisition of a single player or two.
Grabbing elite prospects was presumably never on the table.
About a month ago, Jeff Sullivan at fangraphs wrote about Allen Craig's struggles at the plate this year.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/allen-craig-who-once-knew-left-field/
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/allen-craig-who-once-knew-left-field/
Things I've learned on this board today:
Cespedes = Rob Deer
Craig = Mike Carp
Joe Kelly = shit
I feel much more informed.
Snodgrass'Muff said:
I'll add $20 each on top of this. The doomsayers are getting a little old.
Kelly has a career 4.00 FIP. That would place him 63rd in the majors out of 93 qualified starters per Fangraphs, in the range of guys like Wade Miley, Lincecum, Burnett, Jarred Cosart, and Homer Bailey. Basically, a #3 starter. However, those guys have all been durable enough to throw 120+ IP so far, whereas Kelly has thrown only 169 IP in the last two years combined in the majors and minors.
Basically, the guy looks like a decent #4. There's value to that, but not as much for the Sox given how they have a bunch of those types in AA/AAA between Ranaudo, Escobar, Barnes, RDLR, Webster, Johnson, Owens, etc. Would've rather taken Craig and a lower level prospect with high upside.
Basically, the guy looks like a decent #4. There's value to that, but not as much for the Sox given how they have a bunch of those types in AA/AAA between Ranaudo, Escobar, Barnes, RDLR, Webster, Johnson, Owens, etc. Would've rather taken Craig and a lower level prospect with high upside.
I'm confused.
I sorta see the attraction of Kelly, even if he can't stick in the rotation, his stuff screams out that he'd be an excellent reliever. Four years of control of an excellent reliever is worth a lot.
I don't understand Craig when you've already got Cespedes; though of course you have Craig for 4 years and Cespedes for 1 year.
I'm now wondering if Cespedes gets flipped?
I sorta see the attraction of Kelly, even if he can't stick in the rotation, his stuff screams out that he'd be an excellent reliever. Four years of control of an excellent reliever is worth a lot.
I don't understand Craig when you've already got Cespedes; though of course you have Craig for 4 years and Cespedes for 1 year.
I'm now wondering if Cespedes gets flipped?
In terms of the roster move, it's certainly possible that Craig has been playing injured because the Cards are in the playoff hut, and the Sox and Cardinals knew that. If that's the case and Craig requires surgery, perhaps he gets put on 60-day DL.
At the rate Papi is still hitting (even though his avg is down this year) that won't be for awhile. I would imagine that he will play here through 2016 at least, not sure about the '17 option.bosockboy said:
But he's going to want to hit that 500 HR mark.
I'd be in favor of the sox putting Craig right on the DL (I'm assuming that they'd be able to show that his foot is injured) to get right for next year.
Craig is a negative WAR player this year, dudes. I know you're all banking on a return to form and maybe that'll happen but till it does... he's not a 2-3 win player.
Plympton91 said:
Papi insurance or at 1B if Nap can't play the field anymore.
At this point, I think BC is just grabbing the best available players and over the off-season his team will lay out a plan and execute it. He'll have bevy of scenarios and that's what you generally want as a GM.
So I suppose technically they're good, with Lester, Lackey and Gomes out, and Cespedes, Craig, and Kelly in. But man, they got a lot of OFers.Merkle's Boner said:
Cespedes
Craig
Nava
Carp
JBJ
Victorino
Holt
rembrat said:
Yeah, having Craig bounce around the outfield and 1st base to keep people fresh next year is probably a good idea. Then he can become the right fielder for 2016 and move to 1st and DH in 2017 if necessary. It looks like Ben is going for deep depth again.
One of the worst sports days in a long time. Just don't get what the Sox are doing here. Craig was beyond brutal this year and is signed for pretty substantial money going forward. Would anyone even of claimed the guy on waivers? Sure he could bounce back, but how is a player like that the main piece the Sox get in return for Lackey? Kelly isn't horrible, but doesn't seem to have the upside that you would hope for in a trade like this. This team is gong to be horrible next season - and somehow, despite that, the main return they got for Lester was a player that they only will control for another year.
Merkle's Boner said:
Except
Carp is a horrendous OFer and will in all likelihood be moved for a bag of balls
Holt can be a supersub playing anywhere
Victorino can't be counted on for more than 80 games
kazuneko said:
It's July 31st, you have absolutely no clue what the 2015 Red Sox will look like, none of us do. It's perfectly reasonable not to be overjoyed with what they got in return for the pieces they've traded today, but all the doom and gloom about next season is vacuous whining.
Carp isn't an outfielder (or long for the team)... but you know that. Victorino can't stay healthy... but you know that. Holt will continue to be an IF/OF super sub... but you know that.Merkle's Boner said:
I expect Nava has just been moved to the bubble - though he can back up 1B as well.
of course he would have been claimed. hey, I would be furiously working to scrape up the money to claim him myself. his contract is goodkazuneko said:
kazuneko said:
The team that shows up in Fort Myers will probably be a lot different than where they stand now. Many many more moves to go. One thing for sure, they are not winning much with the starting pitching they currently have on their roster.
kazuneko said:
It's pretty clear what they are doing in the big picture.
Also, Craig's money is not that substantial if he bounces back and they clearly think he will. That's just an odd thing to say. Do you actually know what his contract is? That statement makes it seem like you don't.
Isn't Craig a pretty horrendous OFer too?In my lifetime said:
Is the plan to go with a primary OF of Cespedes/JBJ/Vic with Nava backing up LF and 1B, Holt backing up everyone, and Craig backing up Papi?? I really don't get where he fits in defensively.
Yes, Im assuming Carp is gone.
