Career 98+ ERA guy who played less than one full season in NY when the Red Sox signed him doesn't really count as signing away a star from them.Monbo Jumbo said:
Heyman: Ellsbury to sign seven-year deal with Yankees
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This one doesn't hurt as bad as I expected. We knew he was gone. He got overpaid. Congrats to him and Boras. Must have been one hell of a binder.
Now, I just have to convince my wife that we have to change our dog's name from Ellie to Dusty.
Or start kicking the dog.
Now, I just have to convince my wife that we have to change our dog's name from Ellie to Dusty.
Or start kicking the dog.
Wingack said:
That is pretty awesome. Just letting you know right now that I'm going to steal it.
(Gotta admit though that I'm hoping that he doesn't nearly live up to his contract and becomes known as Scapegoat Dreamboat in NY.)
My most significant worry now -- well other than Ells being Ricky Henderson and going into the HOF as a Yankee -- is that the Sox make a reactionary move because it was the Yankees. Can't get caught in the switches here. Don't backtrack on valuation of Napoli. Don't do something stupid with Kemp. Don't go hog wild on Choo, or something. Stay on track.
I made my peace with Ellsbury's departure long ago. The only news is the destination and the dollars.
I'd be furious if the Sox gave Ellsbury this deal. Ergo, I'm delighted that the MFY did. Sure, they will spend over the luxury tax threshold most years, but their budget is finite. This contract is unlikely to be a good use of those finite dollars past the first couple of years.
Thanks Jacoby. You played hard while you were here, and you were never dishonest about your motives. No hard feelings whatsoever.
I'd be furious if the Sox gave Ellsbury this deal. Ergo, I'm delighted that the MFY did. Sure, they will spend over the luxury tax threshold most years, but their budget is finite. This contract is unlikely to be a good use of those finite dollars past the first couple of years.
Thanks Jacoby. You played hard while you were here, and you were never dishonest about your motives. No hard feelings whatsoever.
Why would they do that defensive alignment? Should the Sox sign Beltran (whose part of my plan C in the outfield this offseason) you should stick him in left, leave Shane in right and JBJ takes over CF. JBJ's defense should be at least as good as Ellsbury according to many scouts. Beltran is an offensive upgrade (slight) over Nava in left and Nava becomes your 4th OF'er/ (back-up) firstbaseman who will likely get 400+ at bats. Shane backs-up CF, Beltran backs-up RF and Nava backs-up LF.Dogman2 said:
Shoo is now plan B and his role is the same I laid out for Beltran above.
I don't really have any hard feelings towards JE either.
Then again, I just heard Damon on MLB Network Radio, and he said that all the criticism and put-downs from Red Sox fans after he signed with the NYYs "drove him nuts." It got him so sad that he had to get pep talks from Boras. So maybe there is some strategic value in bugging the crap out of Jacoby now that he's in pinstripes?
Then again, I just heard Damon on MLB Network Radio, and he said that all the criticism and put-downs from Red Sox fans after he signed with the NYYs "drove him nuts." It got him so sad that he had to get pep talks from Boras. So maybe there is some strategic value in bugging the crap out of Jacoby now that he's in pinstripes?
xjack said:
Damon is profoundly stupid. He's not bright. And apparently he's got skin thinner than tissue paper. If he didn't know what would happen when he signed in NY, that's on him.
Jacoby won't be this stupid about it.
maufman said:
To me, these are a bit of apples and oranges. Yes, I agree, I'd be furious if the Sox gave Jacoby this deal. But the Yankees do not have the same financial constraints as the Sox do. No, this isn't whining about payroll advantage as if the Sox are a small-market team. But the advantage the Yanks have over the Sox in this department is significant. So for them to pay it doesn't hamstring them like it would the Sox. So while I'm glad the Sox didn't give them this contract, I'm *NOT* happy that the Yankees did. They can afford it, and their team just got a lot better. We can say that in year 6 the contract will suck, but by then, the Yanks will have other guys doing the heavy lifting for them.
That sounds more or less right but I think Beltran could see more time in RF than what you suggest. Against righties it would be Beltran-Bradley-Victorino, as the presumptive starters, but Nava-Bradley-Beltran as strong secondary option. Against lefties it would be Gomes-Victorino-Beltran as option 1. Beltran and Victorino get plenty of rest and Beltan esp. spells Papi at DH against a few lefties. This works especially well with Napoli back at 1b but if so there is no room for Carp.seantoo said:
I'm not sure the MFY budget is exactly finite, just their roster at 25. If their fans hadn't spit/thrown beer/said mean things at Mrs. Cliff Lee, they would've gone to, what, $230M or $240M.
It can't be fun to be an MFY fan. Not really. Not in the '04, '13 sense.
If the second-richest team can't resign their center fielder for 5/100 because the richest adds two years + $1.9M per + an option, well now that's a sad shame. For Tampa. (So, stop feeling bad. Imagine Being the Rays fan.)
It can't be fun to be an MFY fan. Not really. Not in the '04, '13 sense.
If the second-richest team can't resign their center fielder for 5/100 because the richest adds two years + $1.9M per + an option, well now that's a sad shame. For Tampa. (So, stop feeling bad. Imagine Being the Rays fan.)
DennyDoyle'sBoil said:
The Sox have no need this winter to react to anything the Yankees do. They will go into the 2014 season as the defending world champions, with postseason stud Jon Lester at the head of the rotation, Big Papi anchoring the lineup and the most exciting prospect in baseball in Xander Bogaerts stepping into a full-time role. Fans will sing along to 'Three Little Birds' every time Victorino strolls to the plate, they will sing 'Sweet Caroline' in the middle of the eighth, and they will cheer when Koji strolls out of the bullpen for the ninth. You couldn't ask for a better scenario to keep the faithful happy while the front office sticks to their long-term plan.
While I agree with the overall synopsis of this plan you cannot expect Big Papi to be the anchor forever. He's 39 years old. Sooner or later you need to find that elite bat to replace him and work along side the future of Boegarts and others. They need to respond to these moves by trading for someone like Stanton. They need a young masher to build around.JimD said:
LeoCarrillo said:
Haven't we been told over and over again that they're hell-bent on staying under the tax threshold for 2014? That's a finite limit, if they're serious about it.
koufax32 said:
I have no problem with someone taking the most money if that's their primary goal, but your example is completely irrelevant. There's no way you can compare an extra $20k for someone making $50k with an extra few million for someone who will make well over $100m during their career.
Haven't we been told over and over again that they're hell-bent on staying under the tax threshold for 2014? That's a finite limit, if they're serious about it.
1. We'll see
2. If so, okay, that's once ever.
1. We'll see
2. If so, okay, that's once ever.
Quick, name the last long term FA deal that's worked out well for the Yankees.
Giambi, Tex, A-Rod, CC (already declining),
I think you'd probably need to go back to Mussina.
I think you'd probably need to go back to Mussina.
CC hasn't worked out for the Yankees? Sure, he had a bad year in 2013, but he led them to a WS title in 2009, and he's been one of the best pitchers in baseball during his time with them. It may end poorly, but my goodness.
And Tex and ARod were also key players on that 2009 WS team. ARod has won two MVPs for them. Again, it's not ending well, but he has been incredibly productive for them.
Ironically, while Mussina was a great pitcher for them, they never won a WS with him.
And Tex and ARod were also key players on that 2009 WS team. ARod has won two MVPs for them. Again, it's not ending well, but he has been incredibly productive for them.
Ironically, while Mussina was a great pitcher for them, they never won a WS with him.
DennyDoyle'sBoil said:
On the plus side, the implications of this would be that we developed time travel, as Ellsbury would have to go back about eight or nine years back and have a substantially better career than he's had so far. LIke by a wide, wide margin.
I have no concern at all about the Red Sox doing anything reactionary or knee-jerk on this one. Granted, I'm wrong on just about everything, but I can't believe that the fact that it was the Yankees will have any impact whatsoever. Perhaps had 2013 not unfolded in the manner that it did, it might. But they just won a WS by undoing a move akin to the one the Yankees just made. I imagine they saw the writing on the wall on this one some time ago.
At very least, CC's first contract was good. The deal after the opt out, maybe not so much.BosRedSox5 said:
It is?
look, Ells was going to take the biggest deal possible. Plain and simple. Sox weren't going to give him 150M+ over 7 years.
No one, except the Yankees (and Dodgers) were going to do that. Seriously. It's not sickening. It's fucking business. That's what baseball is. Sometimes you get someone like Pedey who decides that a fan base and a city is worth more than top dollar, but I can't get upset at a guy taking the most money. ESPECIALLY since the Sox offer wasn't closed.
I wasn't talking about the deal, I was talking about the back pages of the a Daily News and New York Post.
look, Ells was going to take the biggest deal possible. Plain and simple. Sox weren't going to give him 150M+ over 7 years.
No one, except the Yankees (and Dodgers) were going to do that. Seriously. It's not sickening. It's fucking business. That's what baseball is. Sometimes you get someone like Pedey who decides that a fan base and a city is worth more than top dollar, but I can't get upset at a guy taking the most money. ESPECIALLY since the Sox offer wasn't closed.
I wasn't talking about the deal, I was talking about the back pages of the a Daily News and New York Post.
So long Jacoby, 1-time All Star. $150MM, don't blame him...
Ben's next move should be to extend Jon Lester now (or the day after Opening Day). I like the idea of having lefty starters neutralizing the Yankees LHH line-up. Also like the idea of having 3 lefties in the pen, for big/late spots.
Ben's next move should be to extend Jon Lester now (or the day after Opening Day). I like the idea of having lefty starters neutralizing the Yankees LHH line-up. Also like the idea of having 3 lefties in the pen, for big/late spots.
Exact same thing you can say about ARods deal. He actually lived up to his first contract before the opt out. Obviously PEDs were a major reason but still.Bob Montgomery's Helmet Hat said:
Let the Yankees overpay for our scraps, afterall that is the Yankee way (overpay for free agents), like with A-Rod, Texiera & Sabathia. They never learn the lesson that eventually tomorrow becomes today. Sure it's a good short term move for the Yankees, hell that short porch in right may have Ellsbury approach his 2011 levels. But they extended themselves for to much for to long. How is (fill in the blank) working for them now?Ananti said:
PS: I pray Arod wins his case, F the Yankees.
Tyrone Biggums said:
This is true, but I'm going to assume that the Red Sox front office has a plan for this (if not necessarily a specific player yet). In any event, it is unlikely that they will find Papi's eventual replacement in a reactionary move to counter what the Yankees just did.
benhogan said:
I love the idea of watching Lester fan Ellsbury on some filthy break ball that has him spinning in circles on his way back to the visitor's dugout at Fenway.
Put me in the "there was no way he was going to sign here, anyway" camp. I'm sad to see him go - I'm sad to see any home grown Sox prospect leave - but the writing has been on the wall for a while now.
The Yankees have gotten better. That said, they're still a long way from being scary. I reserve the right to see how their rotation/pen rounds out before I'm in pants shitting territory.
Heck of a job by Boras. Wowzers.
The Yankees have gotten better. That said, they're still a long way from being scary. I reserve the right to see how their rotation/pen rounds out before I'm in pants shitting territory.
Heck of a job by Boras. Wowzers.
A bit late to the party, but... Ellsbury's base stealing and overall speed on the basepaths and in the OF made the Red Sox more exciting, and this I will miss a lot. He was a very good player for my team. I thank him for the titles and I am happy that he got the best offer he could get. After 3 WS championships in 10 years and the shell that the Yankees have become as a franchise, I just can't get upset about where he went. As everyone has said, I knew he was gone. Going to the Yankees doesn't bother me one bit, especially since his injury risk and their obvious overpay could make this deal very bad for them very quickly.
When he returns to Fenway, I will cheer loudly if I am there. I hope the overwhelming majority of fans there will do the same. He helped this team a great deal; was not treated ideally by the press (some fans and maybe management) and; most importantly, was a critical piece to 2 very special teams. When he was on the field he did his job and never seemed to cause any trouble off the field or in the clubhouse. No hard feelings from this Sox fan, whatsoever. Only fond memories. I won't go as far as to wish him luck, however.
When he returns to Fenway, I will cheer loudly if I am there. I hope the overwhelming majority of fans there will do the same. He helped this team a great deal; was not treated ideally by the press (some fans and maybe management) and; most importantly, was a critical piece to 2 very special teams. When he was on the field he did his job and never seemed to cause any trouble off the field or in the clubhouse. No hard feelings from this Sox fan, whatsoever. Only fond memories. I won't go as far as to wish him luck, however.
Not surprised he left nor that he was paid this much considering how frothy the free agent market was. I suspected the Sox wanted to keep him because they recognize how talented he is and what his best seasons, and I figured they'd go to $120-130m or so. I knew he'd be overpaid, but I didn't know he'd get his much. But we have to throw out everything we thought we knew about the free agent market.
Great player that had the potential to be a "face of the franchise" kind of guy but never quite got there. That kind of leadership and "brand value" may have encouraged the Red Sox to spend more on him but those qualities never really materialized, at least not in a public-facing way.
Great player that had the potential to be a "face of the franchise" kind of guy but never quite got there. That kind of leadership and "brand value" may have encouraged the Red Sox to spend more on him but those qualities never really materialized, at least not in a public-facing way.
Bob Montgomery's Helmet Hat said:
Tyrone Biggums said:
A-Rod's deal after opting out is nothing like what happened with CC:
- The Yankees signed a deal for close to $300 million with A-Rod after he opted out.
- CC got his contract re-written to include a one year extension for an additional $30 million in exchange for not testing the free agency waters.
It wasn't hard to see where Ells was heading after we heard that he twice rejected Sox extension overtures. Boras might help some younger clients get long-term extensions, but when they are determined to go to market, it doesn't take him long to dial up the MFYs. I was holding out hope that NY would pass on Ells, since he's somewhat redundant as a better version of what they already have in Gardner. But if they are confident that A-Rod's money will be available, or willing as a fall-back to simply blow past $189M, then why not grab an extra dessert or three?? They're the Yankee$, after all. It's what they do.
By the way, Ortiz just turned 38. That's waaay younger than 39.
By the way, Ortiz just turned 38. That's waaay younger than 39.
dcmissle said:
Yep. And that's really toning down the economics for the average Joe. What was the difference, in millions, between the offers by the MFY and the Sox? That is really what Ells was looking at....not a $5,000 pay raise from Sam's Club.
I agree that most of us would advise our sons not to leave $20+ million on the table to stay with the company that originally hired us. Especially if that company didn't value as highly as our competitors.
I think it's a terrible deal for the Yankees. However, there is one way this makes a ton of sense for them.
And that's if Ellsbury is Paul Molitor.
I know Molitor was an infielder (mostly) but they actually have pretty similar skill sets and very similar careers up until Age 29. They each had one great season (for Molitor it was 1982) and had many injury plagued seasons and developed a soft reputation.
But this was not the case and Molitor ended up having a 1st ballot HOF career, played until he was 41 years old and is 30th all-time in games played. Basically the guy stopped having weird injuries and wound up leading the league in hits 3 times after he was 34.
Will Ellsbury become Molitor? I doubt it but if he does, the Yankees got a steal.
And that's if Ellsbury is Paul Molitor.
I know Molitor was an infielder (mostly) but they actually have pretty similar skill sets and very similar careers up until Age 29. They each had one great season (for Molitor it was 1982) and had many injury plagued seasons and developed a soft reputation.
But this was not the case and Molitor ended up having a 1st ballot HOF career, played until he was 41 years old and is 30th all-time in games played. Basically the guy stopped having weird injuries and wound up leading the league in hits 3 times after he was 34.
Will Ellsbury become Molitor? I doubt it but if he does, the Yankees got a steal.
Tyrone Biggums said:
I've seen this from other people, too. I'm sure that's why Cano dumped Boras for Jay Z....so he could get $125 million and have to switch positions.
Anyone who thinks the Yanks will surpass $189 next year is dreaming. They can still sign Cano and stay under. They'll let Cano walk if he doesn't accept their offer, which is likely the best one out there, once you consider the off the field opportunities and winning. Cano would be miserable in Seattle, so I don't see them as anything more than leverage at this point. Compared to Ells, he has a bigger downside with taking the extra $25+ million.
It's different, but would your perspective change if Jacoby donated the extra 30 million to Native American Charities and causes? My point being its really not for us to decide how much is "enough." I'd rather JE have it than it staying in Hank and Hal's pockets.glennhoffmania said:
Well, I don't think Ellsbury is that comparable to Rickey (lacks the consistent power and big BB rate), Ichiro (better contact/slap hitter to take advantage of speed), or Molitor (better contact hitter). Lofton's a decent comp, though. Assuming good health, Ellsbury will likely have a solid ROI. But if he really does represent an alternative to Cano, that's a loss for NY. Cano's better.
I just don't think this precludes a Cano resigning, or a Tanaka deal, or a Kuroda return, or a trade for another solid starter. The Yankees went bonkers after watching the Sox in 07 and the Sox/Rays battle in the ALCS in 08. They're opening up the wallet again.
I also agree that Choo's value coming off a .400+ OBP season far exceeds Victorino's last year. I'd be stunned if he doesn't easily double Vic's $$$. He could triple it.
I just don't think this precludes a Cano resigning, or a Tanaka deal, or a Kuroda return, or a trade for another solid starter. The Yankees went bonkers after watching the Sox in 07 and the Sox/Rays battle in the ALCS in 08. They're opening up the wallet again.
I also agree that Choo's value coming off a .400+ OBP season far exceeds Victorino's last year. I'd be stunned if he doesn't easily double Vic's $$$. He could triple it.
I don't get all the griping about the size of the contract. The Sox signed Crawford for around 10 million less. Ellsbury plays CF and is a better player.
With all the money floating around baseball, this deal doesn't seem far off of what the market should bear. That said, I don't blame the Red Sox for not offering more. They just won the WS and have a deep system. No risk in sticking to their plan. I don't begrudge any team maximizing profits if they can do so and remain competitive.
With all the money floating around baseball, this deal doesn't seem far off of what the market should bear. That said, I don't blame the Red Sox for not offering more. They just won the WS and have a deep system. No risk in sticking to their plan. I don't begrudge any team maximizing profits if they can do so and remain competitive.
The only way the "How much money do you need?" argument works is if the Red Sox didn't have the money to pay him what he wanted. The Sox could have signed him but decided (wisely, I think) not to go with that many years. You can't blame Ellsbury for taking the deal, just as you can't blame the Sox for not going seven years.
It does if the guy is coming off a 5.1 scoreless inning relief appearance in Game 5 of the ALCS followed by two complete-game wins, including the clincher, in the World Series. Mike Torrez was 31, coming off three good seasons and a huge postseason. I was 12 and I remember it was seen as a huge deal at the time.
If you were Cano, you wouldn't run. You would jog – barely.
Ananti said:
It does if the guy is coming off a 5.1 scoreless inning relief appearance in Game 5 of the ALCS followed by two complete-game wins, including the clincher, in the World Series. Mike Torrez was 31, coming off three good seasons and a huge postseason. I was 12 and I remember it was seen as a huge deal at the time.
Philip Jeff Frye said:
If you were Cano, you wouldn't run. You would jog – barely.
ivanvamp said:
I think this is exactly what Cashman says, but is it really? The MFYs had a payroll of $236M last year - not including the $29M luxury tax - and they ended up with a team OPS of .693. Even if these long-term FA deals for older players didn't "hamstring" them, it must place some limits on their roster-building, particularly in terms of developing a fam system.
I also believe that things have changed dramatically in baseball's marketplace over the last few years and for some reason, the MFYs haven't been able to adjust. The fact that teams are locking up young stars to multi-year contracts means that the top-tier players rarely come to the market, or if they do, they are on the back-end of their careers. There is so much money sloshing around and so few players, that there simply is no value in free agency any more.
The Red Sox are benefiting from the last few years of unrestrained draft spending. It will be interesting to see which teams are able to navigate the current system - lack of value in free agency plus the draft salary cap means that there are fewer places to use a financial advantage - in the coming years.
Doug Beerabelli said:
That wouldn't matter to me. Ellsbury and his offspring will be extremely wealthy for a very long time whether he makes $100m, $120m, or $160m. For the guy making $50k, an extra $20k is a significant increase. But I agree it's not up to us to decide what's enough and he's obviously free to do whatever he wants. I just want to keep things in perspective and stop comparing Ellsbury to a guy working at Costco or something.
EvilEmpire said:
And everyone thought that the Crawford deal was awful, so using it as a baseline isn't helping your argument.
EvilEmpire said:
And it's pretty much universally accepted that the Sox were damn foolish to sign Crawford to that contract. Not sure how the fact that the contract happened is justification for not panning the Ellsbury deal as well.
EvilEmpire said:
Yeah, I agree. This contract is probably a slight overpay and a mistake if offered by most teams in the league but I actually think its a very good deal from the perspective of the Yankees. They have a huge financial advantage but don't have much talent in their farm system so where are they going to get elite talent? Free agency. The next two free agent classes are very weak in terms of position players, especially given that a couple of the better players (ie, Hanley Ramirez) are likely to sign extensions before getting there. McCann, Cano, and Ellsbury are probably the best players at their respective positions that will be in the 2014-1016 free agent classes so why not splash the cash?
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