General Offseason Thread.

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

I find it really difficult to believe that with all the people following basketball in every nook and cranny in the US as well as globally - and all of the changes in the sport in terms of what sort of body type is in the most demand - that someone like Ben Wallace could go unnoticed, un-drafted and essentially given no shot in 2023.

I mean its certainly possible but its just so hard to see. Fans may still be stuck in thinking about the game a certain way (it seemed to really bother folks that the Celtics could be beaten by the un-drafted Gabe Vincent as if that means anything at all in the moment) but it feels like NBA front offices, like their counterparts in most other major sports are looking for every inefficiency out there. There are so many more channels for talent to reach the NBA and with social media, an athlete who is capable of showing out has far more avenues to market their skills. Talent will always get passed over but it really feels like the NBA is good at finding the actual best players in the world these days.

 

[Euclis20]

You're missing my point and no idea where I hated Ben Wallace came from. If Wallace came out of Virginia Union today, went Undrafted, received one workout invitation, didn't receive a contract offer and was then brought into camp by Wes Unseld who was intrigued due to his similar body type/style back then.....who is the Wes Unseld to give him a shot today? That guy likely doesn't exist and Wallace never gets his shot...just like many others who never got their shot. Nobody is looking for guys today with Wallace's skillset...or lack of offensive skillset especially when they don't have a resume.

Yeah I'm with HRB on this one. He got very lucky, arriving just after most of the big centers had retired or started to decline (Shaq, Robinson, Hakeem, Ewing, Mourning, Smits) and just before the offensive revolution where everyone has to show at least something offensively, or else they're too big of a liability to see time. He would never have gotten his chance.

Another comp today is Jakob Poeltl....who is better offensively but still pretty weak (even at the line, like Wallace) and nowhere near the defender or rebounder, and far less switchable. And that's a legit starting center.

Poeltl is at least 4 inches taller than Wallace, that plus the other differences you mention, I don't see the comp at all.

 

[benhogan]

One team to keep an eye on in terms of trades/cuts

OKC has 21 players under real contracts right now, they need to cut (or trade) 6 of these guys:
https://www.spotrac.com/nba/oklahoma-city-thunder/cap/

Some good players and/or prospects there. Garuba is one who I would be checking on.

Kenny Hustle may be a minutes victim with Chet coming back

 

[PedroKsBambino]

You're missing my point and no idea where I hated Ben Wallace came from. If Wallace came out of Virginia Union today, went Undrafted, received one workout invitation, didn't receive a contract offer and was then brought into camp by Wes Unseld who was intrigued due to his similar body type/style back then.....who is the Wes Unseld to give him a shot today? That guy likely doesn't exist and Wallace never gets his shot...just like many others who never got their shot. Nobody is looking for guys today with Wallace's skillset...or lack of offensive skillset especially when they don't have a resume.

I got your point and responded to it - the league today would value Wallace and several teams would be open to him. Expectations for a 5 have changed in ways very favorable to Wallace’s game—-less focus in post play (which he’s atrocious at) more on switch ability and quickness, recognition you can play 5 at a smaller height. Even awful FT shooting can be excised (Poeltl).

 

[slamminsammya]

Ben Wallace could credibly lock down smaller guys. He'd still be good. Would he get the chance though? I think yes but I can see him slipping through the cracks due to his lack of offense.

 

[TripleOT]

Today’s defensive centers with little to no offense tend to be tall, lanky guys who can rim run, like Jaxson Hayes, Claxton, Allen. TL is unique because he isn’t that tall, although the long arms and springy legs allow him to play taller. If Wallace came up today, he would be a unicorn, but if he could manage to get a SL slot, show out in Vegas, and get into a training camp, he could probably be a top 18 guy on some team, at least.

Maybe some 21st century Pitino could hope to make him a 3 and D specialist, with a year or two of seasoning in the G league. NBA teams are most definitely getting away from undersized centers with no offense, but Wallace was one of the best of that genre of all time. If he could get a look, the same thing probably happens today. He gets on the floor and kicks everybody’s ass on the boards, while showing that he can switch out on the floor and defend the rim.

 

[slamminsammya]

One data point: Daniel Theis made it purely on his defense in the German league.

 

[the moops]

I would want Ben Wallace on my team when playing against Embiid, Giannis, or Jokic

 

[chilidawg]

One data point: Daniel Theis made it purely on his defense in the German league.

I have no idea what that data tells you.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

We have gone from Ben Wallace to Daniel Theis and we aren't even out of July yet. Dog days indeed. Hurry up and arrive training camp!!!

May as well post an end of season Kris Dunn interview. Can he build off his post-ASB 13/4.5/5.5 in 25mpg return to the league? I expect normal regression from his 47% 3-pt shooting but rest of the game is his game when healthy.
KSL Sports Live Exclusive Interview With Utah Jazz Guard Kris Dunn - YouTube

 

[slamminsammya]

I have no idea what that data tells you.

You can get noticed in the current NBA by being a solid defensive bug man with no offensive skills to speak of. Which to me suggests Ben Wallace would still get a shot in today's NBA, although maybe after some time getting noticed in a foreign league.

 

[Jimbodandy]

FWIW, there's a wide continuum between "Ben Wallace would get a real shot" and "nobody would have known who Ben Wallace is". Dejesus is correct that player personnel would know who he was. But not being able to shoot the 3 and being a tweener, he'd have been underestimated today too. I think that he'd be another non-drafted invitee that probably would sneak onto a team eventually just like he did.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

Very interesting interview, Vincent seemed like he was totally honest in his answers. Connectivity missing for the C's, especially on defense, was the biggest point of interest to me. Kevin Love getting some credit at the end for improving the Heat locker room was maybe the most surprising bit. Good for the vet.

If folks haven't listened to the Gabe Vincent episode of Reddick's pod, I'd definitely recommend it. Not just for the stuff about the BOS series. There's some interesting conversation about "Heat culture," a couple of shots against Coach Bud ("they didn't make a single adjustment"), and then a short conversation about whether defense or offense wins championship.

On the latter topic, JJ threw out that in the current iteration of NBA playoff basketball, the game is evolved (devolved?) to a question of "which guy can you ignore on offense and which guy can we attack on defense. If you're not generating good looks and if you don't have 5 competent offensive players, you're not f*cking winning in the NBA." Discussion starts at about 33 minute mark.

If that is true, then maybe the Cs will be a better playoff team without Marcus Smart on the offensive end. As much as I love Marcus.

Pod:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBiWdS0Hm8s&list=PLKfCn7f_hJhA1iOJeloRnJUetVYRdXBQR

 

[DGreenwood]

On the latter topic, JJ threw out that in the current iteration of NBA playoff basketball, the game is evolved (devolved?) to a question of "which guy can you ignore on offense and which guy can we attack on defense. If you're not generating good looks and if you don't have 5 competent offensive players, you're not f*cking winning in the NBA." Discussion starts at about 33 minute mark.

If that is true, then maybe the Cs will be a better playoff team without Marcus Smart on the offensive end. As much as I love Marcus.

My gut reaction is to agree with you regarding how Marcus can hurt the offense but he actually played pretty well in the playoffs this year so we can't pin this one on him. I think his TS% was something over 59%.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

My gut reaction is to agree with you regarding how Marcus can hurt the offense but he actually played pretty well in the playoffs this year so we can't pin this one on him. I think his TS% was something over 59%.

Yeah but it seems to me that Marcus was the guy teams helped off and would live with open shots from him as opposed to getting Tatum (or Brown to a lesser degree) going.

Or maybe that's a function of Tatum and Brown not getting him the ball at the correct times.

It will certainly be interesting to see.

 

[DGreenwood]

Yeah but it seems to me that Marcus was the guy teams helped off and would live with open shots from him as opposed to getting Tatum (or Brown to a lesser degree) going.

Or maybe that's a function of Tatum and Brown not getting him the ball at the correct times.

It will certainly be interesting to see.

I'm excited to see how things turn out too. My personality leans toward "run it back and and try to do it better next year". It takes guts to shake it up with a team this good and that's what they've done. I'm glad that Brad has the confidence to do that.

 

[Euclis20]

My gut reaction is to agree with you regarding how Marcus can hurt the offense but he actually played pretty well in the playoffs this year so we can't pin this one on him. I think his TS% was something over 59%.

Marcus has, on paper, turned himself into a non-terrible 3 point shooter in recent years. Over the last 5 years, his 3p% is .342. Tatum and Brown this year combined for a 3p% of .344. We know those two aren't comparable with Smart, because he's always wide open. His postseason play probably beat expectations, but it will be nice to expect the starting point guard to hit more than 34% of wide open 3s. Even Rondo shot better than that after leaving Boston (.358 from 3 after being traded in 2015).

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Yeah but it seems to me that Marcus was the guy teams helped off and would live with open shots from him as opposed to getting Tatum (or Brown to a lesser degree) going.

Or maybe that's a function of Tatum and Brown not getting him the ball at the correct times.

It will certainly be interesting to see.

When Tatum and Jaylen are on the floor whoever our other guard is will be the guy teams help off. They did it even when Brogdon was in the game since defenses need to make choices. Failing to run a second defender at Tatum/Jaylen, especially as the 24 is winding down would result in many easy buckets and/or fouls.

 

[chilidawg]

Not really news, but incredibly worth reading. Kudos to the Athletic for publishing such great writing.

https://theathletic.com/4696030/2023/07/21/steve-kerr-egypt-cac-summer-league/

 

[128]

View: https://twitter.com/TimBontemps/status/1683490578879619072


Interesting read.

 

[Euclis20]

Five champions in five years from 2019-2023 is especially interesting because we had nothing but Warriors/Cavs from 2015-2018. I don't believe we've ever had four straight years of the same teams in the finals.

I think dynasties in general are a good thing for the league (and I think it's noteworthy that perhaps the nadir of the NBA's popularity happened to coincide with the last time the league had five champions in five years, 1975-1980), but man, we're seven years removed from Durant joining the Warriors and the impact is still being felt.

 

[Tony C]

Not really news, but incredibly worth reading. Kudos to the Athletic for publishing such great writing.

https://theathletic.com/4696030/2023/07/21/steve-kerr-egypt-cac-summer-league/

Thanks for that. Truly a remarkable family. I have the honor of knowing Ann Kerr a bit and she is epic as was her husband/Steve’s dad.

 

[lovegtm]

Five champions in five years from 2019-2023 is especially interesting because we had nothing but Warriors/Cavs from 2015-2018. I don't believe we've ever had four straight years of the same teams in the finals.

I think dynasties in general are a good thing for the league (and I think it's noteworthy that perhaps the nadir of the NBA's popularity happened to coincide with the last time the league had five champions in five years, 1975-1980), but man, we're seven years removed from Durant joining the Warriors and the impact is still being felt.

I think the parity feels better right now because the talent level in the league is so high.

The Nuggets absolutely could have lost to one of the other teams, but they had an all-time great at the peak of his game, Murray playing at a star level, and a high-end supporting cast.

2021 was the only year of these that really felt like a weak "parity year" to me.

 

[ElUno20]

Not nba related but this is terrifying
View: https://twitter.com/ShamsCharania/status/1683847244573712385?s=20

 

[BigSoxFan]

Not nba related but this is terrifying
View: https://twitter.com/ShamsCharania/status/1683847244573712385?s=20

Damn. That is awful.

 

[Sam Ray Not]

Oh my god, that’s terrifying. Glad he’s stable, but … jesus. Sending all the good karma and secular prayers I can muster…

 

[bsj]

What the heck? This is awful.

 

[Pablo's TB Lover]

It's been a minute since there was a high profile basketball heart issue as oppossd to football, so kudos to the USC staff who sounded like they were on top of it.

Hope the kid stays on track to pull through.

 

[ifmanis5]

Good to hear he's okay, super scary.
The Twitter/X replies are almost as scary, as a lot of them are blaming the Covid vaccine. Even the owner of the site is doing it!

 

[koufax32]

I hate people

 

[BigSoxFan]

Good to hear he's okay, super scary.
The Twitter/X replies are almost as scary, as a lot of them are blaming the Covid vaccine. Even the owner of the site is doing it!

View attachment 68016

Elon is ecstatic this happened to Bronny.

 

[ColdSoxPack]

What business is this of Elon Musk? Go away.

 

[Justthetippett]

What business is this of Elon Musk? Go away.

He's rich, egotistical and thinks people give a shit what he thinks? Also never really gets held accountable for anything. We'd all be better off if he kept this kind of thing off social media.

 

[Royal Reader]

I think this is the point l delete twitter.

 

[ColdSoxPack]

I already did. I miss all my beat reporters but c'est la vie. He has no business diagnosing myocarditis on social media.

 

[PedroKsBambino]

Here’s hoping Bronny is long-term ok.

And I hope LeBron leads everyone associated with the NBA off of Twitter in response to the Musk idiocy. If there’s one guy who can drive a league, a set of writers, and the players to change—-this is the guy.

 

[Moosey]

Elon Musk is a James Bond villain. Fuck that guy.

 

[Spelunker]

Elon Musk is a James Bond villain. Fuck that guy.

Fundamentally incompetent?

Yup.

 

[radsoxfan]

Obviously a scary story, who knows if we will get all the details.

Given it happened yesterday and he's already stable and out of the ICU, doesn't seem like it went on as long as the Hamlin situation at least.

Didn't see if anyone said if they had to defibrillate or what treatment was done, but glad whatever happened seemed to have worked out quickly and for the best.

 

[snowmanny]

I already did. I miss all my beat reporters but c'est la vie. He has no business diagnosing myocarditis on social media.

In the old days they would have presumed cocaine. It’s all indefensible.

 

[bigq]

I think this is the point l delete twitter.

 

[nighthob]

In the old days they would have presumed cocaine. It’s all indefensible.

In fairness, in the old days coke was pretty ubiquitous.

 

[Justthetippett]

I think this is the point l delete twitter.

Musk is doing this for you.

 

[benhogan]

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/272609/NBA-Over-Under-Win-Totals-For-23-24-Regular-Season

The over/under win totals for the 23-24 NBA regular season have begun to be posted on gambling sites like FanDuel with the Boston Celtics, Denver Nuggets, Milwaukee Bucks, Phoenix Suns and Cleveland Cavaliers each having totals above 50.

on the bottom:
Pistons 26.5 (going for 5 straights seasons of being absolutely rotten)
Wizards 24.5

* Off the board: Portland Trail Blazers, Memphis Grizzlies

23-24 Over/Unders

Boston Celtics: 54.5

Denver Nuggets: 53.5

Milwaukee Bucks: 53.5

Phoenix Suns: 52.5

Cleveland Cavaliers: 50.5

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/272609/NBA-Over-Under-Win-Totals-For-23-24-Regular-Season

The over/under win totals for the 23-24 NBA regular season have begun to be posted on gambling sites like FanDuel with the Boston Celtics, Denver Nuggets, Milwaukee Bucks, Phoenix Suns and Cleveland Cavaliers each having totals above 50.

on the bottom:
Pistons 26.5 (going for 5 straights seasons of being absolutely rotten)
Wizards 24.5

* Off the board: Portland Trail Blazers, Memphis Grizzlies

23-24 Over/Unders

Boston Celtics: 54.5

Denver Nuggets: 53.5

Milwaukee Bucks: 53.5

Phoenix Suns: 52.5

Cleveland Cavaliers: 50.5

I don't know anything about anything but it seems to me that HOU is trying very hard to be over 31.5 since they owe their pick (top 4 protected) to OKC.

PHI (49.5) and MIA (48.5) seems generous given how unsettled their rosters are.

 

[benhogan]

I don't know anything about anything but it seems to me that HOU is trying very hard to be over 31.5 since they owe their pick (top 4 protected) to OKC.

PHI (49.5) and MIA (48.5) seems generous given how unsettled their rosters are.

NBA Over/Unders is usually in HRBs wheelhouse

I also know little to nothing about everything the Western Conf but expect IME to somewhat straighten things out in Houston and have them compete for play-in glory (see T-Wolves)

 

[the moops]

NBA Over/Unders is usually in HRBs wheelhouse

I also know little to nothing about everything the Western Conf but expect IME to somewhat straighten things out in Houston and have them compete for play-in glory (see T-Wolves)

There is no chance Houston competes for a play in next year. They have talent but it is so young. They are a couple years away

 

[benhogan]

There is no chance Houston competes for a play in next year. They have talent but it is so young. They are a couple years away

Vegas agrees with you. BUT there appears to be a commitment to winning NOW. I wouldn't be shocked if they added more talent.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

There is no chance Houston competes for a play in next year. They have talent but it is so young. They are a couple years away

Last season 40 wins made the play-in game. Vegas predicts them for 31.5. Seems like it's within the range possibilities that HOU gets to 36, 37 wins, which is within the realm of "competing" for play-in spot. FVV, Brooks, and Jeff Green are certainly floor raisers so assuming they stay healthy and play, I think they will be in that range.

 

[RorschachsMask]

Whoa

View: https://twitter.com/ShamsCharania/status/1685037253356089344?s=20

View: https://twitter.com/ChrisBHaynes/status/1685045585811058688?s=20