Thanks for explaining, though it does raise a question. If a frozen pick drops to #30, what happens if there are more than one frozen pick? They cannot all be "#30."
General Offseason Thread.
- Thread starter RorschachsMask
- Start date
This is really helpful. Thanks. I should've known that the NBA would close such an obvious loophole.
I imagine Jackson and Perk must both be pretty cheap to still be on payroll.
I actually didn’t realize Jackson was potentially not still part of the top group with Breen, though makes sense.
Doc should stick to TV.
There are tie-breaking rules. I'm too lazy to look it up right now but i believe it's by record.
Doc is # 4 all time in playoff wins, and # 9 all time in total wins. He may have his flaws, but winning games is not one of them.
View: https://twitter.com/dangercart/status/1680951632828284930?s=46&t=ewYMSuiVooy3RaQTShVJiA
Crazy fact (and obviously sobering given that we've got two of them).
Crazy fact (and obviously sobering given that we've got two of them).
This was a lot different when guys used to stay in college.
Here are the 11 top 3 picks that won championships with the team that drafted them from 1980 to 2021. Note LBJ is included so it's not as restrictive as the tweet ("before changing teams"). https://fadeawayworld.net/nba/only-11-top-3-picks-have-won-titles-with-the-team-that-drafted-them
Neither Bernardoni or the author of the above article supply us with an important piece of data. How many top three (or 5) picks in the last n years have won a championship at all, let alone with the team that drafted them. Until we have that piece of information, it’s hard to get excited.
This is just silly selective statistics. Over the last decade, 7 of 10 NBA titles have been one by a superstar playing for the team that drafted them and without having previously left. Kawhi, Giannis, and Jokic each once and Curry 4 times. None of them were top 5 picks though, so they don’t count. The other 3 title teams were led by Lebron (plus Davis) and Kawhi. Obviously KD won in SF and was superstar too. But the bottom line is that plenty of teams win championships by developing stars.
I looked arbitrarily at 1990-94 and it was 7 and 0 with their draft team. Only Shaq won as a lead star though. Everyone else won in their 30s in a support role (Kidd with Dirk although he was a 38 mpg starter so that might undersell him, and Payton and Mourning with Shaq and Wade) or stapled to the bench.
If you look at top-5 picks from 2008-2020, there are lot fewer guys who have won championships at all.
The list of picks are in this article: https://www.sportscasting.com/only-5-top-5-nba-draft-picks-selected-2008-later-won-championship-all-with-lebron-james/
Sure, but a lot of those guys are still playing and could pick up late career rings the same ways guys like Steve Smith did.
You end up drafting in the top 5 because you are a shitty organization or you are tanking (frequently both). You don’t become a good organization just because you have a top 5 pick, so it doesn’t surprise me that a lot of top 5 picks don’t win a title with they’re drafting team. Both of our top three picks came from the Nets. They’re “still waiting”* for that first championship.
* Random Talking Heads reference from “Crosseyed and Painless”.
* Random Talking Heads reference from “Crosseyed and Painless”.
It seems like you have missed his point. He is specifically arguing against full-on tanking like THE PROCESS not against developing players. I think its a really good point especially in the new CBA. It takes so much time to develop a whole a team out of 19 year-olds that by the time they are good, they are making super-max money. Look at the Rockets, they are very quickly going to get super expensive and have to trade some of their recent top-5 picks
One team to keep an eye on in terms of trades/cuts
OKC has 21 players under real contracts right now, they need to cut (or trade) 6 of these guys:
https://www.spotrac.com/nba/oklahoma-city-thunder/cap/
Some good players and/or prospects there. Garuba is one who I would be checking on.
OKC has 21 players under real contracts right now, they need to cut (or trade) 6 of these guys:
https://www.spotrac.com/nba/oklahoma-city-thunder/cap/
Some good players and/or prospects there. Garuba is one who I would be checking on.
Hollinger throws out Dom Barlow as a guy who might be of interest:
The 6-foot-9 Barlow is also 20 and might be the best free-agent big man left on the board. He scored double figures in all four games he played in Vegas, and the way he scored was as notable as the amount. Barlow showed the ability to create off one or two dribbles to generate a short jump hook or layup and enough touch to complete the play even when contested by another big. He still isn’t shooting 3s, but his 15-foot jumpers looked good too.
Perhaps most notable: 15 assists and just six turnovers in his six summer games, including two in the California Classic. Barlow still needs to rebound better and play with more physicality in general, but he’s already improved leaps and bounds from when he came into the league. With so many squads still having midlevel exception money lying around, a rival team should drop an offer sheet on him and force the Spurs to match it.
https://theathletic.com/4698289/2023/07/18/nba-summer-league-standouts-2023-hollinger/
The 6-foot-9 Barlow is also 20 and might be the best free-agent big man left on the board. He scored double figures in all four games he played in Vegas, and the way he scored was as notable as the amount. Barlow showed the ability to create off one or two dribbles to generate a short jump hook or layup and enough touch to complete the play even when contested by another big. He still isn’t shooting 3s, but his 15-foot jumpers looked good too.
Perhaps most notable: 15 assists and just six turnovers in his six summer games, including two in the California Classic. Barlow still needs to rebound better and play with more physicality in general, but he’s already improved leaps and bounds from when he came into the league. With so many squads still having midlevel exception money lying around, a rival team should drop an offer sheet on him and force the Spurs to match it.
https://theathletic.com/4698289/2023/07/18/nba-summer-league-standouts-2023-hollinger/
This.
Teams drafting top5 are usually (not always) poorly run organizations. Poorly run organizations generally don't win championships.
But players drafted top5 are usually (not always) great players. Great players win championships.
So...even if the data were to say that top5-drafted players often don't win a title until their second team, there would be a pretty easy explanation for that.
That doesn't get into that guys drafted at 18/19yo often don't hit their peak during their rookie deal, and some JAG GM gets whacked and the new guy makes a bunch of moves and such.
Draymond Green responded to a fake tweet from KG and called him out.
He’s also now having a twitter exchange with Jordan Poole’s dad.
It remains a complete mystery to me how anyone could think Green is even somewhat sympathetic or likable
He’s also now having a twitter exchange with Jordan Poole’s dad.
It remains a complete mystery to me how anyone could think Green is even somewhat sympathetic or likable
Ok so this is interesting stuff to me. So I looked at the last 20 years and did the best I could determining the champions' best player, and then looked at that player's draft position.
2004 Pistons - Hamilton - #7
2005 Spurs - Duncan - #1
2006 Heat - Wade - #5
2007 Spurs - Duncan - #1
2008 Celtics - Garnett - #5
2009 Lakers - Kobe - #13
2010 Lakers - Kobe - #13 (probably Gasol, #3, was better but Kobe was clearly the Alpha)
2011 Mavs - Dirk - #9
2012 Heat - LeBron - #1
2013 Heat - LeBron - #1
2014 Spurs - Duncan - #1
2015 Warriors - Curry - #7
2016 Cavs - LeBron - #1
2017 Warriors - Curry - #7
2018 Warriors - Curry - #7
2019 Raptors - Kawhi - #15
2020 Lakers - LeBron - #1
2021 Bucks - Giannis - #15
2022 Warriors - Curry - #7
2023 Nuggets - Jokic - #41
You can quibble with whether Duncan or Kawhi or Parker was better for the 2014 Spurs, or whether Pierce or Garnett was better for the 2008 Celtics or whether Curry or Durant was better for the 2018 Warriors, but this is who I think was the best player on those teams.
So here's the breakdown - # in parenthesis is the number of titles in this time span they won as the best player on their respective teams.
#1 - LeBron (4), Duncan (3)
#5 - Wade (1), Garnett (1)
#7 - Curry (4), Hamilton (1)
#9 - Nowitzki (1)
#13 - Kobe (2)
#15 - Kawhi (1), Giannis (1)
#41 - Jokic (1)
2004 Pistons - Hamilton - #7
2005 Spurs - Duncan - #1
2006 Heat - Wade - #5
2007 Spurs - Duncan - #1
2008 Celtics - Garnett - #5
2009 Lakers - Kobe - #13
2010 Lakers - Kobe - #13 (probably Gasol, #3, was better but Kobe was clearly the Alpha)
2011 Mavs - Dirk - #9
2012 Heat - LeBron - #1
2013 Heat - LeBron - #1
2014 Spurs - Duncan - #1
2015 Warriors - Curry - #7
2016 Cavs - LeBron - #1
2017 Warriors - Curry - #7
2018 Warriors - Curry - #7
2019 Raptors - Kawhi - #15
2020 Lakers - LeBron - #1
2021 Bucks - Giannis - #15
2022 Warriors - Curry - #7
2023 Nuggets - Jokic - #41
You can quibble with whether Duncan or Kawhi or Parker was better for the 2014 Spurs, or whether Pierce or Garnett was better for the 2008 Celtics or whether Curry or Durant was better for the 2018 Warriors, but this is who I think was the best player on those teams.
So here's the breakdown - # in parenthesis is the number of titles in this time span they won as the best player on their respective teams.
#1 - LeBron (4), Duncan (3)
#5 - Wade (1), Garnett (1)
#7 - Curry (4), Hamilton (1)
#9 - Nowitzki (1)
#13 - Kobe (2)
#15 - Kawhi (1), Giannis (1)
#41 - Jokic (1)
Truly amazing that Detroit won a championship with this dude as their best player. 17.6 points while shooting 26% from three
That was a terrific TEAM though. Tons of really solid players: Billups, Hamilton, Rasheed, Wallace, Prince, and some good bench guys like Okur, Williamson, and even Atkins and Mike James. Really good defensive team and they had enough offense to win a ton. I don't like Detroit (obviously it goes back to the Laimbeer/Thomas era), but this was actually a fun team, I thought.
Just saw a tweet that said "Paul George and Gordon Hayward are the only two players from the 2010 NBA draft that are on an NBA roster". That's crazy
2009 has Harden, Blake, Curry, DeRozan, Jrue...
2008 has Rose, Westbrook, Love, Lopez, Gordon...
2007 has Horford, Durant, Conley, Green...
2009 has Harden, Blake, Curry, DeRozan, Jrue...
2008 has Rose, Westbrook, Love, Lopez, Gordon...
2007 has Horford, Durant, Conley, Green...
If it weren't for Tom Brady I imagine we'd be seeing a lot more "is Jokic at 41 the best draft pick ever" stories. It really is an incredible win for the Nuggets to get him there...but there literally isn't a pick in the NBA draft that compares to the NFL 6th round.
From 1974-1985 the NBA had 10 rounds in the draft. Here are some notable late round picks over that time:
1976 - #99 - Mike Dunleavy
1977 - #46 - James Edwards, #49 - Eddie Johnson
1978 - #64 - Gerald Henderson, #60 - Michael Cooper, #59 Pat Cummings
1979 - #82 - Jerry Sichting
1980 - #75 - Rory Sparrow, #58 - Kurt Rambis
1981 - #57 - Frank Brickowski
1982 - #72 - Mark Eaton, #48 - Craig Hodges
1983 - #139 - Sedale Threatt, #97 - Manute Bol
1985 - #160 - Mario Elie, #87 - Spud Webb
Dear Knicks fan,
While it's true that any team picking above 41 could have had Jokic but it's always special to remind you that he was there at 34 for you.....but Cleanthony Early was just too tempting to pass up.
Sincerely,
HRB
Only team in the last 40 years not to have someone on the NBA top 75 list (technically this year's Nuggets didn't have anyone either, but obviously if we redid the list, Jokic would make it. Can't say the same for the 04 Pistons).
Does anyone outside of the bay area find him sympathetic or likable (and I know plenty of Warriors fans who aren't particularly fond of him either)? His podcast is occasionally entertaining, but I don't 'think there are many people who follow the league that have positive impressions of him.
I mean if we qualify it as full season. But ‘Sheed was the player they rode. They were good prior to the trade (34-22 roughly .607 or a 50 win pace), but after acquiring him they went 17-5 with him in the lineup (which includes the debut game that he barely played), or a 63 win pace. ‘Sheed was the poor man’s KG and Larry Brown got that performance out of him.
Much like Garnett was the best player on Boston’s ‘08 team, Wallace was the defensively dominant player that did a bit of everything and made the Pistons better everywhere. That ‘04 team was so good that the NBA immediately went out and began changing the rules to get more offense into the game.
Point still stands if you replace Hamilton with any of those dudes. Each of them are clearly the worst best player on a championship team and it’s not particularly close
Yes I was just offended to see those superior players slandered like that. Ben Wallace is a Hall of famer.
Talk about a guy born at the right time. In todays game he probably doesn't even make a roster.
Come on, dude. Players like Timelord are starters but Ben Wallace couldn't make a roster? Ben Wallace can't catch lobs and play similar defense, and be at the end of the bench somewhere?
Ben Wallace was a lot closer to Draymond than it might appear---even down to being a credible passer (obviously nowhere near Green's level as a passer). I agree he wouldn't have been a star in today's game, but he's a switchable big who is a great defensive player he'd be a starter on a legit team, still. His offensive weakness is tough to work around though---even TL at least has a vertical game that Wallace didn't. Seems to me he'd be a 25 minute a game starter who might sit at end of game vs small lineups? Something like that.
TimeLord was a 1st round pick who slipped due to being flagged for physicals. Wallace was Undrafted and the only team who even brought him in for a workout was the Celtics who didn't sign him after summer league. This was at a time when teams didn't even care about their interior players being unable to shoot/score. How does he even get onto a roster in todays day and age when he couldn't even get into a camp back then?
Because he proved that he was a lot better than teams thought? He made it to the Hall of Fame...I'm not sure why teams (obviously wrong) draft assessments in 1996 matters more than what he showed on the court.
Another comp today is Jakob Poeltl....who is better offensively but still pretty weak (even at the line, like Wallace) and nowhere near the defender or rebounder, and far less switchable. And that's a legit starting center.
Green, TL also viable comps if imperfect.
Do you think Wallace is too slow for today? Or the offense/FT shooting? I think there's guys who show the gaps can be managed and he's better at a bunch of things that most bigs today.
Another comp today is Jakob Poeltl....who is better offensively but still pretty weak (even at the line, like Wallace) and nowhere near the defender or rebounder, and far less switchable. And that's a legit starting center.
Green, TL also viable comps if imperfect.
Do you think Wallace is too slow for today? Or the offense/FT shooting? I think there's guys who show the gaps can be managed and he's better at a bunch of things that most bigs today.
You're missing my point and no idea where I hated Ben Wallace came from. If Wallace came out of Virginia Union today, went Undrafted, received one workout invitation, didn't receive a contract offer and was then brought into camp by Wes Unseld who was intrigued due to his similar body type/style back then.....who is the Wes Unseld to give him a shot today? That guy likely doesn't exist and Wallace never gets his shot...just like many others who never got their shot. Nobody is looking for guys today with Wallace's skillset...or lack of offensive skillset especially when they don't have a resume.