Felger and Mazz - Creating False Naratives one day at a time

Dummy Hoy

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Again, who has suggested he doesn't deserve a mention? It's crazy to suggest Cabrera doesn't deserve to have his fabulous season lauded; I just don't see how his total game is as good as Mike Trout's this season. There's zero shame in that, Trout is having a historically good season.

I'm not a huge OPS fan b/c it undervalues OBP, but even if you use that as a measure, you're ignoring defense and base-running.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Cabrera: 1.003 OPS, 167 OPS+

Trout: 0.949 OPS, 167 OPS+

It's not crazy to suggest that Cabrera deserves a mention when it comes to the MVP race.
It's not, but the measures you've listed completely ignore defense, not to mention Trout's FORTY-SEVEN stolen bases compared to Cabrera's 4. Those are substantial advantages for Trout, and they can be seen by the fact that B-ref has Trout at 10.6 WAR, Cabrera at 6.6.

Now, a point in Cabrera's favor is that he's played a bunch more games, so you could argue he's had a bigger impact on his team's march to the division title.
 

PC Drunken Friar

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I'm with JMOH. If we've come to the point where winning the triple crown should be ignored when considering someone for the most valuable player, then pull the bus over.........its time for me to get off.

I suspect there will be an army of baseball fans exiting with me.
Yup. there are somethings that are just really cool. Winning a triple crown is one of them. Posnanski had an interesting article where he broke some stuff down. In the last ten years, there have been some "close calls" for the triple crown, but only one of those close calls the hitter came within 20 points of the BA title. And in 2007, Holliday won the RBI and BA titles but lost the HR title by 14.

He took the average HR, BA and RBI of all the BA, RBI and HR leaders' average since 1968 and came up with .348/44/129.

From 1920-1967, 14 of these "average TC seasons" happened.

Since 1968, there has been one, Larry Walker in 1997.

This might not mean a thing to you, but I think its pretty cool. I just think its absurd to say Cabrera is not a good choice for the MVP, he is having an all-time great season.

And if Trout were to win it, I would say he is also deserving.
 

PBDWake

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This might not mean a thing to you, but I think its pretty cool. I just think its absurd to say Cabrera is not a good choice for the MVP, he is having an all-time great season.
It is pretty cool. And he deserves all the accolades for having an incredible season. And it wouldn't be a catastrophe if he did win. But just because someone is being incredibly good on one side of the ball does not mean that he's the best player in the game.

I usually hate to do cross sports comparisons, but I think this one may be apt. To me, Miguel Cabrera is Kevin Durant. Durant was the scoring champion, an incredible player, someone anyone would be glad to start a team with, and to me, the clear second best player in the league. But he was also still clearly a notch below Lebron James, the best player in the league, and the big reason for that was a) defense, and b) supplementary offensive skills , and c) a more well rounded game.

This season, Trout has been the best player in the league. Cabrera is, to me, notably better than anyone else the AL can toss out there. But Trout has still been better.
 
Fuuuuuck. I put these guys on for five minutes and its the same shit all week. "The NFL isn't the best run league! The owners don't care about the fans! The owners are leveraging their power!" We get it already: Owners = Bad...Refs = Good. They're like fucking naive schoolchildren who just found out how business works. Billionaires are greedy fucks, tell me something I didn't know before the lockout. Go on any forum with comments, listen to the radio or watch TV; everybody knows the owners are to blame, yet these two talk about it for hours as if they're giving some unique insight we didn't know. I understand its the biggest story in sports but God forbid they actually talk about something else for parts of the show or at least give a different slant on the story.

I don't listen that often anymore so maybe I'm just catching them at the wrong time but Felger has basically repeated the same three or four rants for the past two weeks every time I tune in. And it doesn't help that Mazz just reiterates it at a louder volume one minute later. Maybe I'm wrong but this shit is unlistenable.

Edit:Spelling
 

Marbleheader

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The whole station needs to be revamped. It's really not much better than the competition. I thought losing the ratings battle would force them to step up. Mazz and Gresh are embarrassingly bad. Wiggins too. Horrible.
 

HomeBrew1901

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Fuuuuuck. I put these guys on for five minutes and its the same shit all week. "The NFL isn't the best run league! The owners don't care about the fans! The owners are leveraging their power!" We get it already: Owners = Bad...Refs = Good. They're like fucking naive schoolchildren who just found out how business works. Billionaires are greedy fucks, tell me something I didn't know before the lockout. Go on any forum with comments, listen to the radio or watch TV; everybody knows the owners are to blame, yet these two talk about it for hours as if they're giving some unique insight we didn't know. I understand its the biggest story in sports but God forbid they actually talk about something else for parts of the show or at least give a different slant on the story.

I don't listen that often anymore so maybe I'm just catching them at the wrong time but Felger has basically repeated the same three or four rants for the past two weeks every time I tune in. And it doesn't help that Mazz just reiterates it at a louder volume one minute later. Maybe I'm wrong but this shit is unlistenable.

Edit:Spelling
I had to turn it off for the same reason but in their defense, there isn't anything else to talk about right now.

The Sox suck, Hockey is locked out and there has been no movement, NBA hasn't started yet, and the Patriots are going up against the Bills on Sunday. So this is it and unless you agree with the owner there is no other slant you can take.
 
I had to turn it off for the same reason but in their defense, there isn't anything else to talk about right now.
I heard Dan Patrick the other day and he literally spent the entire three hour show on the refs. But it wasn't one long condescending diatribe telling me everything I already know about supply and demand. You could take ten minutes of F&M and just repeat it all week. Again, I've only tuned in a total of a couple hours (so maybe it's just my timing) but I've heard him say "lucky sperm club!" and "leveraging their power!" like twenty fucking times. Capitalism is a bitch at times, Felger, no shit. I'm not as naive as a fucking third grader. I don't need to hear your interpretation of business ethics over and over only to be repeated by Tony five minutes later. I fucking hate most owners and generally sided against them on the majority of labor issues before this crap.

I just wish Felger would somehow mix the show up at least. Bring on a guest who disagrees with them. Try to find out the actual sticking points regarding the negotiations. What are the historical effects of the scabs...will these games leave a stain on the recordbooks like the 1982 season did? Which teams have benefited, which have suffered the most beside Felgers's beloved Packers? I don't know, I'm not a radio producer...but stop telling me how the owners are greedy and "only care about money!!!" No shit. Try paying for food, parking and tickets to a game some time. The fans figured out a long time ago that most owners will do whatever they can get away with as long as we still show up. It's how America works. Not one listener is saying, "Wow, Felgie is right! Dan Snyder doesn't care about me like I thought...it's all about the money with him! Thanks for that insight Mike!"
 

Phenom

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It certainly was an ugly rant. I'm not sure what sent Mazz over the edge. It had to have been more than some negative texts and emails, since I'm assuming Mazz receives dozens of those per day.

I think Mazz misses the mark a little bit, though. My biggest issue with him, in isolation, isn't that he doesn't disagree with everything Felger says. Mazz is right when he says there isn't much disagreement on other sports talk radio shows, either.

But every show is structured differently. Rich, for example, brings a lot of value to T&R without arguing with Fred over-the-air. Rich is the mastermind behind most of the bits, and all of the production work on the show.

The format of "Felger and Mazz" is almost solely dependent on "hot takes," and the tone is argumentative. They don't conduct many interviews, and don't do many comedic off-topic segments. Thus, Mazz' value to the show is in his supposed ability to advance conversation, and provide a counter to Felger. But when Mazz just parrots what Felger says, and doesn't provide an altering viewpoint, the show doesn't move. It turns into Felger arguing against a straw man for four hours (the BBWAA, Patriots media, Gary Tanguay, etc). The discussion doesn't advance, because Felger doesn't have anybody in-studio to directly challenge him.

Rich doesn't have to debate with Fred, because he adds value to the show in a different way. Unfortunately for Mazz, he has to debate with Felger, because the show's format is dependent on give-and-take.

I will be very interested to see what the summer ratings show. I think Mazz recently signed an extension, so it's unrealistic to expect "The Sports Hub" to dramatically change the show. But if the ratings suffer for a second straight book, could we the see the addition of a more permanent third man, or a rotating third man?
 

NortheasternPJ

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It was said up thread, but I think what you're basically getting at is "Mazz has never brought an original thought to the show" That's all I thought about during that rant. It's not that he always agrees with Felger, its the fact he doesn't bring any take to the show never mind a hot sports take. He does when its him and Beetle, but then again every time he sits in the A-Hole chair he complains and say he wants to go back to the B-Hole chair because its easier and he can just play on the Internet and let Felger drive the show. (I still can't believe he admitted it on the air)

The one thing that was bizarre was when he was going on about YOU DONT KNOW HOW HARD IT IS TO BE ME! THIS ISN"T EASY! WALK IN ANOTHER MAN'S SHOES. Sorry Mazz, you've got a job most would dream of and you've lived the life of what a million journalism students would kill to do. I'm sure it wasn't always easy and being a beat writer can suck (especially for baseball) but I don't feel one ounce of pity for him.
 

Vandalman

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Bruce Allen's response:

Tony Massarotti had an epic meltdown yesterday over people who insist he is nothing more than Mike Felger’s yes-man and lapdog. (Who says that??) The most amusing thing was his insistence that Felger is always right and that’s why he doesn’t disagree with him! He’s also sick of everyone coming after him just because they hate Felger.

Way to dispel commonly-held notions, Mazz.

No one is saying that Massarotti needs to automatically take an opposite stance. That sort of contrived debate is just as annoying. But when Felger is on one of his insane conspiracy theories, how about grilling him a little? Making him explain things. How does he know this? Ask what is to be gained by the Patriots freezing out Welker? Why would they do it? Why are the Patriots cheap? Why would they not want to win? In what ways have the Jets passed the Patriots in organization building and as a franchise? (Oh wait, that was two years ago.)
Show some skepticism over what Felger says once in a while, instead of blindly agreeing with every damn thing the guy says. Work at it a little bit. Not only would Mazz shed the lapdog image, it would actually make for better radio.
 

NortheasternPJ

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That post deserves a big you're right mike! That's all he'd respond with anyways.

I am praying they implement the no pleasentries rule ASAP. Hi guys thanks for having me! Hang up!
 
Felger and Mazz are ripping the Bobby V hire relentlessly. Saying he was one of the worst hires in Boston sports history. A lot of, "What were they thinking? This guy had no resume...he was in Japan for the previous decade! Larry should have known this was gonna happen!"

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't these two initially love the hire?
 

HomeBrew1901

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I can't recall if they loved it but neither of them were as against it as they are today. I remember Mazz was extremely skeptical but willing to see how it panned out, neither liked how Lucciano cut the legs out from under Cherington.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Digging into this thread regarding Valentine produced this post from last November:

The "most interesting man in the world" bit is hilarious.

But man oh man is Mazz just awful today...he claims to like the hire because it's a bold move but he also claims to dislike the hire because it's a bold move? A caller called him out on it and Mazz essentially recognized that yes, he has two contrasting opinions on Valentine. How is that acceptable? That's Ordway level stuff, if not worse...
 

HomeBrew1901

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I am praying they implement the no pleasentries rule ASAP. Hi guys thanks for having me! Hang up!
I don't know if I like this or not. The only annoying thing about the pleasantries is when the caller actually waits for a response before making his point.

I don't see anything wrong with a quick "How are you doing" and moving on, but the way they have been shutting callers down this week has been even more annoying and obnoxious. I like Bertrand but he has been such a prick about this too especially to Jimmy Stewart who is the only one saying that this is wrong.
 

BoSoxFink

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Well that didn't last long. Management told Felger he can't hang up on people.
Good, Felger is such a douchebag just like he always says. I can't stand how much of a dink he acts like with the phone calls. "Wahhhhhh your cell phone sucks I want landlines wahhhhhh!" The incessant whining about phones and the way people start conversations pisses me off to no end. It's your fucking job! Shutup and take the calls and stop whining like a little bitch.

I swear Felger needs to be bitch slapped sometimes.

Yes I know people's answer will be don't listen, but I actually like the sports talk on the show I just hate the whining.
 

AimingForYoko

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Felger and Mazz are ripping the Bobby V hire relentlessly. Saying he was one of the worst hires in Boston sports history. A lot of, "What were they thinking? This guy had no resume...he was in Japan for the previous decade! Larry should have known this was gonna happen!"

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't these two initially love the hire?
IIRC, Felger loved it b/c he would smack down the entitled players and the players have no room to complain yadda yadda yadda. Mazz said give it a try, but always said that it had the potential to be a catastrophe b/c Bobby never shuts up.

He's pretty much always said that the players didn't have any room to bitch after what they did, but that Bobby was no prize either.
 

mabrowndog

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Please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't these two initially love the hire?
Felger was hopeful but somewhat cynical over it. Dan't recall Mazz's comments or tone that day, but his column following the hire was hardly an enthusiastic endorsement.

As stated upthread, neither's response then was as jubilant as their reactions have been today.
 

steveluck7

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Good, Felger is such a douchebag just like he always says. I can't stand how much of a dink he acts like with the phone calls. "Wahhhhhh your cell phone sucks I want landlines wahhhhhh!" The incessant whining about phones and the way people start conversations pisses me off to no end. It's your fucking job! Shutup and take the calls and stop whining like a little bitch.

I swear Felger needs to be bitch slapped sometimes.

Yes I know people's answer will be don't listen, but I actually like the sports talk on the show I just hate the whining.
So you like when callers call in on a crappy phone where every 3rd word is missed? or when they are on speaker phone and it sounds like they're 50 ft away, shouting? I applaud the policy... in theory, it'll keep the show running smoothly and eliminate idiots who actually expect an answer to "how are you?"
 

Guapos Toenails

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I love the policy. It's awkward every single time when the callers ask how they are doing and then wait for a response. I hope they take it a step further and hang up on callers that insist on correcting them when they get the caller's name wrong. "Jack from Boston, whatcha got?" "It's John, actually..." Who fucking cares?
 

teddykgb

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yeah, i concur. One of the things i love most about F+M is that they stop bad callers and people with bad connections right in their tracks and end it immediately with a "thanks for listening"
 

NortheasternPJ

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I echo the last 2 posts. FTLT, hey how you doin' etc. has been driving me nuts for years. Listen to the fucking show, they answered that question 10 seconds before, there's no need to ask it.

If you're going to wait on hold for an hour (which brings your sanity into question alone) pick up the god damn phone when you're on the radio. Get off the blue tooth get off the speaker phone.

I think part of it is I spend 3 hours a day on conference calls and people you can't hear, understand or waste time drive me insane.
 

Scoots McBoots

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Why in the blue hell would Dave Magadan agree to an interview with F&M if he's just going to avoid every question he's asked? What a frustrating listen. "Well, I can't comment on..." is bullshit, Dave.
 

HomeBrew1901

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Good, Felger is such a douchebag just like he always says. I can't stand how much of a dink he acts like with the phone calls. "Wahhhhhh your cell phone sucks I want landlines wahhhhhh!" The incessant whining about phones and the way people start conversations pisses me off to no end. It's your fucking job! Shutup and take the calls and stop whining like a little bitch.
I have no problem with Felger getting pissed off over a bad connection, it slows the show down and is annoying but I didn't like the idea of them hanging up on someone for saying "How are you or Thanks for taking my call" and then moving on.

However, like the callers with a crappy cell phone or in a bad area, it was the guys that actually paused for 5 or 10 seconds waiting for an answer that got on my nerves.
 

H78

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I used to love this show, but they've turned into some overly-cynical assholes as of late. They remind me of WEEI when 98.5 first came to town; shitting on their callers, complaining about everything, laughing at their own jokes, etc. Felger isn't as bad at it as Mazz, but it's gotten over the top and makes them almost unlistenable.

If EEI didn't blow so bad they could win back a lot of listeners right now.
 

Marbleheader

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With all the talented former Pats out there, why Wiggins gets so much airtime on their flagship is baffling. He might be the worst radio guy in the market outside of Stearns and Larry Johnson.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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With all the talented former Pats out there, why Wiggins gets so much airtime on their flagship is baffling. He might be the worst radio guy in the market outside of Stearns and Larry Johnson.
I'm not sure how or why, but EEI seems to do a lot better with recruiting the former players. They've got Troy Brown, Kevin Faulk and Matt Chatham making weekly contributions, and all three are very good. Chatham in particular is outstanding. He, Faulk, Chris Price, and Dale Arnold on Sunday mornings are a much better listen than Tanguay and Gresh. Added bonus now that WEEI has split their signals (850 going all ESPN) is that they are no longer beholden to air national games on 93.7 or their network so now they can bump their show to the afternoon for 4:30 kickoffs, like they did this past weekend, and be a true pregame show.
 

Quiddity

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^Perhaps the Pats players don't like hearing manufactured controversies surrounding the team and the non-stop hammering of everything negative? I'd figure a former player goes into talk with them and hears what essentially boils down to:

Felger: The Pats are only 13-3 because their schedule sucks. The Jets have surpassed the Patriots and have done so for years in every way.
Mazz: You're absolutely right Mike. The Pats SUCK!

That's gotta be bothersome to most former players who know how successful and unique the Pats are as a franchise. So instead we get stuck with Jermaine Wiggins, who I'd perhaps even rank below Butch Stearns, he's that bad.
 

Harry Hooper

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I lasted about 2 minutes today, but they kept running the Welker clip = click!
 

soxfan121

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Wiggins adds one vital component to TSH's stable of "hosts" - a person of color. If WEEI were rolling out a whitewash of hosts, it would absolutely be brought up in every other post in the Dennis & Callahan thread (as opposed to only every 3rd post of that thread). Now, WEEI (and specfically, Dennis & Callahan) have earned that reputation and skepticism. TSH's group of hosts are all qualified (well, except Gresh) and their race/ethnicity is largely irrelevant. But Wiggins was a diversity hire - an ex-Patriot, from East Boston, who can 'relate to the urban audience'. Media conglomerates like CBSRadio do care about stuff like this, even when it shouldn't matter.

That and I have to think TSH management heard he was available and willing to work with Felger and signed him before learning how godawful he is on the air. In retrospect, TSH should have upped their offer to Ty Law as a weekly in-studio guest host. Then Wiggins could be safely contained on Saturdays with Rich Keefe, beating the Mustard & Johnson Experience in the ratings.
 

NortheasternPJ

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^Perhaps the Pats players don't like hearing manufactured controversies surrounding the team and the non-stop hammering of everything negative? I'd figure a former player goes into talk with them and hears what essentially boils down to:

Felger: The Pats are only 13-3 because their schedule sucks. The Jets have surpassed the Patriots and have done so for years in every way.
Mazz: You're absolutely right Mike. The Pats SUCK!

That's gotta be bothersome to most former players who know how successful and unique the Pats are as a franchise. So instead we get stuck with Jermaine Wiggins, who I'd perhaps even rank below Butch Stearns, he's that bad.
Right that's why Troy brown and Ty law refuse to work with Felger on CSNNE. Oh wait.
 

HomeBrew1901

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I think the idea of former Patriots not willing to work with Felger is being overblown a bit in here, give these guys the money and they will turn up, don't and they won't it's that simple. EEI and CNNSE appear to be willing to pay the money in order to get people to watch or listen, while CBS Boston may not feel that it is necessary. CBS' model appears to be that they would rather have reporters come on for a few hours over former players.
 

soxfan121

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Yes and no, HB. TSH has invested heavily in Mike Flynn and Wiggins, but both work an extensive schedule of weekends/holidays for the station. Ty Law (for example) probably has a level of financial comfort from his playing days that allows him to turn down a TSH gig that requires him to work on the 4th of July or on Saturdays.

I don't think that getting Willie McGinest on with Felger & Mazz was ever an option; there is some legitimacy to the 'won't work with Felger' line of thinking. But I do think you are mostly correct that it's about money AND scheduling with CBS Radio.

If F&M just replaced Wiggy with Flynn, that segment would improve 10,000%. Flynn is really good on radio. I hope that when Zolak's day-job contract with the station expires they replace him FT with Flynn and then have Zolak bounce between the other three shows for one day per week. As the future "official voice" of the team, he's too high profile to be locked into days with a no-talent ass clown like Gresh. Flynn is ready to be promoted and would keep Gresh from his most annoying contrivance (that he's an expert on OL play). Zolak on Mondays with F&M (to accommodate travel), Tuesdays with T&R at 9:30 or something and then media day with Gresh & Flynn.
 

Phenom

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I happen to agree with Felger's take on Pete Carroll (he wasn't a good coach with the Patriots, and claiming otherwise is revisionist history), but he's arguing against a straw man. Mazz' analysis on Carroll is "Look, Mike, I never said he was a great coach. But he's not the worst! He's bad, though. Yeah!"

I know Mazz is an easy target, but this opening segment is a perfect example of Mazz' weakness as a co-host. It's not that he doesn't disagree with Felger. He doesn't even really converse with him.

This Pete Carroll conversation could be really interesting if somebody was in there to push the conversation. Instead, it'll probably be Felger repeating the same points against a straw man for the next couple of hours.
 

PC Drunken Friar

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"He was weak, he made them a soft team, he was a cheerleader, lost the clubhouse". Rinse Lather Repeat.

I wish someone would call him on his own revisionist history...that the Mo Lewis hit was not some lucky break that got Brady in the games and that, most likely, Brady was coming in to replace Bledsoe very soon.
 

steveluck7

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"He was weak, he made them a soft team, he was a cheerleader, lost the clubhouse". Rinse Lather Repeat.

I wish someone would call him on his own revisionist history...that the Mo Lewis hit was not some lucky break that got Brady in the games and that, most likely, Brady was coming in to replace Bledsoe very soon.
Meh, i don't get on him for that. He's far from the only one to use that play as the turning point, much like lots of people use the brawl with Tek and A-Rod as the turning point of the Sox season in 04.
It's a singular moment, people like those

edit: and this would be yet another area where Mazz could add value. As a writer in this town, he would have also been aware (should have been aware) of BBs increasing frustration with Drew so he could easily use that angle to lead that discussion in a different direction