Everybody Hates Draymond

Jimbodandy

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Aside from Rudy Tomjanovich from the Kermit punch, has there ever been an NBA players career ended due to physicality? Did it even happen in the 90s when everyone was playing way way WAY more physical than Draymond?
Honestly it's more about the law of averages at this point. Imparting that much force on a guy's head is one thing, but continuing to do it repeatedly sometimes catches up with people. You see it in hockey. Seems inevitable to me at this point since even after a suspension, he hasn't changed (unsurprisingly).
 

PedroKsBambino

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Look, I think Draymond is the dirtiest player in the last 20 years. I think he intentionally tries to intimidate and injure people. I think he should have been suspended many times, for longer, starting years ago. I think Dumars should be fired for his transparently biased treatment of Draymond and the lack of judgment to not recuse himself given their personal relationship (hey Joe, glad to see your judgment hasn't improved from when you picked Darko!). Anything bad that happens to Draymond enforcement-wise is, karmically speaking, overdue and well earned. Not only does he not deserve the benefit of the doubt---he deserves the assumption that anything he does that impacts someone else was intentional unless it is totally clear otherwise.

All that said, I don't think that particular play last night was anything all that bad
 

PedroKsBambino

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Others noted it earlier in the thread, but with Dumars hopelessly conflicted and even more incompetent than usual here, nothing is going to change unless or until Lacob, Steph, or Kerr decides they need to address it directly. I do not think that's on the near-term radar given where the team is (e.g. playing well and with some kind of shot at a run this year)
 

djbayko

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All that said, I don't think that particular play last night was anything all that bad
I don't know. Maybe it's my bias because I can't stand him and the way he plays, but it certainly looks to me like he pulled another Draymond. You know, that thing where he purposely imparts extra force because he knows an opponent is there and he thinks he can get away with it.
 

jayhoz

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I don't know. Maybe it's my bias because I can't stand him and the way he plays, but it certainly looks to me like he pulled another Draymond. You know, that thing where he purposely imparts extra force because he knows an opponent is there and he thinks he can get away with it.
Yeah, if you are leaping in the air to try to tip the ball to another player why in the world would you bring your arm down that fast and with that much force? Seems like an unnatural movement for that type of play.

I wish we had a less cropped view of the play.
 

the moops

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Yeah, if you are leaping in the air to try to tip the ball to another player why in the world would you bring your arm down that fast and with that much force? Seems like an unnatural movement for that type of play.
I'm curious what you think players should do with their arms after jumping for a ball. Leave them up for a second? Bring them down slowly and not get back into the play? This whole play seems like a big nothing. Unfortunate for Donte that he got whacked, but shit happens
 

jayhoz

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I'm curious what you think players should do with their arms after jumping for a ball. Leave them up for a second? Bring them down slowly and not get back into the play? This whole play seems like a big nothing. Unfortunate for Donte that he got whacked, but shit happens
I think a player's natural motion is to leap with their arm extended in the air, tip the ball, and then land with their arms in a somewhat relaxed position. Likely bent at the elbows ready to run down the court. DG swings his arm down with enough force to knock down a professional athlete. He makes contact and rather than having his arm rebound off the other player he forces his arm down and through for no logical reason.

Seems unnatural to me.
 

djbayko

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I'm curious what you think players should do with their arms after jumping for a ball. Leave them up for a second? Bring them down slowly and not get back into the play? This whole play seems like a big nothing. Unfortunate for Donte that he got whacked, but shit happens
I see purposeful downward acceleration there, after the play on the ball -- not what you're describing. This is why he often gets away with it.
 

IdiotKicker

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Yeah, if you are leaping in the air to try to tip the ball to another player why in the world would you bring your arm down that fast and with that much force? Seems like an unnatural movement for that type of play.

I wish we had a less cropped view of the play.
And why is your fist closed when doing it?
 

Jimbodandy

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Yeah, if you are leaping in the air to try to tip the ball to another player why in the world would you bring your arm down that fast and with that much force? Seems like an unnatural movement for that type of play.

I wish we had a less cropped view of the play.
When he stares at the guy on the ground after the play, it's a bad look. Like maybe it was an accident and he just took great pleasure in it afterwards, but sweet mother of God the lengths that folks will go to excuse the guy.
 

Auger34

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When he stares at the guy on the ground after the play, it's a bad look. Like maybe it was an accident and he just took great pleasure in it afterwards, but sweet mother of God the lengths that folks will go to excuse the guy.
Completely agree.

TBH with the actual act, if that's a different player, I don't think much of it at all. I would likely call it dirty but it's close enough that I wouldn't get bent out of shape about it. But the staring at him and woofing as he's covering his face (and surely Draymond felt the contact with his face on his elbow) is wild.

The guy is a world class asshole and is a danger when he's on the court. He 100% learned nothing from that suspension. There is no way he makes it to the end of next season without another Nurkic level incident
 

JCizzle

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Even if it is a normal play, Kerr and company would have lost their minds if this same thing happened to Curry. Beyond that, Draymond has lost any benefit of the doubt.
 

Jimbodandy

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Alternatively the lengths folks will go to accuse the guy of attempted murder...
I don't know who said that. I'm not even sure that his stuff is ever an attempt to injure or incapacitate. But it's clearly attempts at physical intimidation through violence with disregard for the others involved. And I don't think that it's crazy talk to imply that at some point someone will be injured enough that it shortens their career. And everyone who saw it coming and could have done something will own part of that, including the guy who's probably the best commissioner in any major sport in our lifetimes.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Even if it is a normal play, Kerr and company would have lost their minds if this same thing happened to Curry. Beyond that, Draymond has lost any benefit of the doubt.
Both true and fair.

My personal view of the best way to deal with the Draymond problem is that, unfortunately, some other team is going to have to do exactly the above to Steph Curry (who I think is awesome, to be clear) in response to the next Draymond cheap shot. And the Warriors need to believe that other teams will retaliate, and only that will get Draymond's key enablers (Steph and Kerr) to deal with it for real.

Hockey is better at this, as is baseball with brushback pitches. The NBA has no repercussions for being a cheap-shot artist, unfortunately, and there's regularly 1-2 guys int he league who take advantage of that reality
 

the moops

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Uh… Sorry. I was around for the 90s. People were not playing way more physical then Draymond. At least not more than once. If they did, they would get their faces redecorated.
This is inaccurate. Dudes like Laimbeer, Mahorn, Rodman, etc were pushing shit just as far as Draymond does
 

joe dokes

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Both true and fair.

My personal view of the best way to deal with the Draymond problem is that, unfortunately, some other team is going to have to do exactly the above to Steph Curry (who I think is awesome, to be clear) in response to the next Draymond cheap shot. And the Warriors need to believe that other teams will retaliate, and only that will get Draymond's key enablers (Steph and Kerr) to deal with it for real.
I'd go with a private warning to Kerr. "If Green pulls any shit, Steph's ACL belongs to us." Nothing a batshit (or a batshit enabler) fears more than someone who is more batshit than they are.
 

joe dokes

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Alternatively the lengths folks will go to accuse the guy of attempted murder...
Because he has attempted it many times before. That's kinda the way it works. If you dont want to be accused of doing "bad thing X," when it might be a close call *this* time*, dont do "bad thing X" a whole bunch of times before this time.

*I dont think it was a close call.
 

lars10

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I'm curious what you think players should do with their arms after jumping for a ball. Leave them up for a second? Bring them down slowly and not get back into the play? This whole play seems like a big nothing. Unfortunate for Donte that he got whacked, but shit happens
There's a difference between bringing your arms down naturally and swinging them down.. if Draymond comes down naturally then he maybe hits Donte on the shoulder with little impact.. instead he speeds up the swing of his arm and aims for his face. Saying this is nothing is what Draymond wants and why he's gotten away with doing sneaky dirty shit his entire career.. like when he swings his leg up when shooting so that he kicks someone in the balls. It almost looks natural, but he swung his leg up further to make sure he made contact.

Edit: if you play hoops or any sport.. you know guys like this, that do things behind the play or do things that are n't what normal players do. You feel lucky after the game that nothing got injured. Nobody is accusing him of murder, but what he does on the court is dangerous...especially the types of things he does when he pushes/nudges people in the air or running full speed. There're no accidents with this guy, he is usually looking at the person right before he decides to hit them... I mean he cold-cocked one of his teammates over nothing.. a guy he outweighed by 50-100 lbs. The reason we don't know what we'd think if other players did this.. is because other players don't do this... so to say, "if Tatum did this we wouldn't care", is the strawiest of straw men, context and precedents matter.
 
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PedroKsBambino

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I'd go with a private warning to Kerr. "If Green pulls any shit, Steph's ACL belongs to us." Nothing a batshit (or a batshit enabler) fears more than someone who is more batshit than they are.
Theoretically---do you think Kerr would believe it, though? He has the only guy in the league who might do that.

As an aside---I do think retaliation has a place in sports. But the ACL...that's really dirty and beyond. Maybe if Nurkic took out Draymond's I could get my head around that....
 

joe dokes

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Theoretically---do you think Kerr would believe it, though? He has the only guy in the league who might do that.

As an aside---I do think retaliation has a place in sports. But the ACL...that's really dirty and beyond. Maybe if Nurkic took out Draymond's I could get my head around that....
I would absolutely *not* have my designated goon take out Curry's ACL (or anyone else's). Maybe just crunch him a bit on an excessively excessive pick.
 

Myt1

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Alternatively the lengths folks will go to accuse the guy of attempted murder...
He deliberately slammed his arm down on the guy. It’s obvious, and you’re just making shit up about what he did and how people are discussing it. It’s weird.
 

Ed Hillel

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It's really incredible to me that nobody has just decked Draymond in the face at this point. Or gotten into his landing space or something. Nobody does shit back to him. This is one spot where I'll fully support someone giving him the Jaylen on Duncan Robinson treatment, but harder. Block, Block, Block, low punch this shithead.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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It should be noted that the 80s Celtics teams and, as has been mentioned, McHale in particular were considered really dirty by opposing fans. The Warriors fans I know who were around then are always quick to remind any Cs fan who complains about Draymond.

I don't care enough about this topic to debate it but its hard to argue when there are plenty of clips out there to support the view that those Celtics teams did whatever it took to win.
 

Ed Hillel

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It should be noted that the 80s Celtics teams and, as has been mentioned, McHale in particular were considered really dirty by opposing fans. The Warriors fans I know who were around then are always quick to remind any Cs fan who complains about Draymond.

I don't care enough about this topic to debate it but its hard to argue when there are plenty of clips out there to support the view that those Celtics teams did whatever it took to win.
Back then, there was an element of teams policing each other and the league/society largely let it go. It's a different era today, except Draymond is held to a different standard and the league kowtows to the Stephen A Smith's of the world whining and crying about Draymond potentially getting suspended because it hurts the viewing product. In the 80's, somebody would have punched Draymond squre in the face and gotten a 1-game suspension. Now someone would get arrested and Draymond would play victim on his podcast.
 

BigSoxFan

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It's really incredible to me that nobody has just decked Draymond in the face at this point. Or gotten into his landing space or something. Nobody does shit back to him. This is one spot where I'll fully support someone giving him the Jaylen on Duncan Robinson treatment, but harder. Block, Block, Block, low punch this shithead.
I think 2 key factors:

1. Too much money. Decking Draymond would start a fracas that would cost any assailant thousands and maybe millions depending on the suspension. Just not worth it.

2. I think many players are legitimately intimidated by him.

This is where a Saints-esque bounty program would come in handy…
 

the moops

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He deliberately slammed his arm down on the guy. It’s obvious, and you’re just making shit up about what he did and how people are discussing it. It’s weird.
There was talk in here today about him ending someone's career. There was talk during his lengthy suspension that he could seriously injure someone and face a lawsuit.

Sorry for combating hyperbole with more, but some of the takes are over the top. He plays recklessly at times and pushes every limit possible. I get it. But this particular incident is fairly commonplace in professional sports
 

joe dokes

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It should be noted that the 80s Celtics teams and, as has been mentioned, McHale in particular were considered really dirty by opposing fans. The Warriors fans I know who were around then are always quick to remind any Cs fan who complains about Draymond.

I don't care enough about this topic to debate it but its hard to argue when there are plenty of clips out there to support the view that those Celtics teams did whatever it took to win.
The difference is that everyone was doing it then (or at least it was "accepted" as to those that did it). Now, it is not. Players routinely get T'd up, fined and suspended. Most of them do, anyway.
We don't say that clotheslining a WR going over the middle after the ball has gone 30 yards over their head is OK just because that's how Chuck Bednarik played.
 

slamminsammya

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It should be noted that the 80s Celtics teams and, as has been mentioned, McHale in particular were considered really dirty by opposing fans. The Warriors fans I know who were around then are always quick to remind any Cs fan who complains about Draymond.

I don't care enough about this topic to debate it but its hard to argue when there are plenty of clips out there to support the view that those Celtics teams did whatever it took to win.
i wasn't alive for those teams and I have no problem admitting that stuff didn't belong in the league. it still doesn't. daymond is nuts and his suspension was an absolute sham
 

jayhoz

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I think 2 key factors:

1. Too much money. Decking Draymond would start a fracas that would cost any assailant thousands and maybe millions depending on the suspension. Just not worth it.

2. I think many players are legitimately intimidated by him.

This is where a Saints-esque bounty program would come in handy…
It's probably for the reasons you state, but I would have thought that some players would have started trying to bait DG into doing something again.
 

joe dokes

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There was talk in here today about him ending someone's career. There was talk during his lengthy suspension that he could seriously injure someone and face a lawsuit.

Sorry for combating hyperbole with more, but some of the takes are over the top. He plays recklessly at times and pushes every limit possible. I get it. But this particular incident is fairly commonplace in professional sports
It is not reckless. It is intentional.
 

jayhoz

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There was talk in here today about him ending someone's career. There was talk during his lengthy suspension that he could seriously injure someone and face a lawsuit.

Sorry for combating hyperbole with more, but some of the takes are over the top. He plays recklessly at times and pushes every limit possible. I get it. But this particular incident is fairly commonplace in professional sports
DG wildly throws parts of his body in the general direction of other players with the intent to harm. He often isn't looking at them and has no idea where he will make contact. It's dumb luck he hasn't stomped on someone's knee or done serious injury to someone's eye by now. That's all it would take to make a serious impact on another player's career.
 

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It's probably for the reasons you state, but I would have thought that some players would have started trying to bait DG into doing something again.
Yup. It would have been a very good use of Grant Williams in the finals a couple years ago. It’s weird that teams don’t try to use his style of play against him. Instead, they basically do nothing and occasionally complain after the game.
 

InstaFace

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Theoretically---do you think Kerr would believe it, though? He has the only guy in the league who might do that.
Maybe we should sign Mook Morris with the 15th roster spot, that'd really send a message :D

edit: hell, at this point we could pick him up on a 10-day contract just for the sake of Sunday's game...
 

lars10

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It should be noted that the 80s Celtics teams and, as has been mentioned, McHale in particular were considered really dirty by opposing fans. The Warriors fans I know who were around then are always quick to remind any Cs fan who complains about Draymond.

I don't care enough about this topic to debate it but its hard to argue when there are plenty of clips out there to support the view that those Celtics teams did whatever it took to win.
Ok.. then have Draymond play in the 80s. It's like arguing that the KKK were orginally democrats.. ok. Both arguments require the idea that nothing has changed since then. When the Celtics were 'dirty' there were plenty of other teams that were as hyper physical and often resorted to violence - famous fights between Boston and Detroit or the Lakers etc. Now there's one player still playing that way against players that don't punch back. The argument is farcical and is just one of the reasons that Warriors fans can't be taken seriously.
 

Euclis20

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Yup. It would have been a very good use of Grant Williams in the finals a couple years ago. It’s weird that teams don’t try to use his style of play against him. Instead, they basically do nothing and occasionally complain after the game.
Just because he does it all the time and is guilty as sin doesn't make it easy. This isn't hockey, goons like him aren't easy to find because it's been long since legislated out of the game. Someone like Grant goes and just hammers someone, odds are he's gonna get a massive suspension, and won't even do it right. Anyone that does it wrong risks losing millions of dollars in current and future earnings, it's not easy to find someone like that.

The guy to do it would have been someone like Haslem, or maybe Giannis' brother. You need someone who really doesn't give a shit, doesn't have much of a future, and is big enough and coordinated enough to make it count (part of what makes Draymond so good at violence is that he's both very fast and very strong). It's harder than we think to find that guy (and it's definitely not Tillman, or anyone on the Celtics roster currently).
 

Myt1

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There was talk in here today about him ending someone's career. There was talk during his lengthy suspension that he could seriously injure someone and face a lawsuit.

Sorry for combating hyperbole with more, but some of the takes are over the top. He plays recklessly at times and pushes every limit possible. I get it. But this particular incident is fairly commonplace in professional sports
You were pretending that he merely brought his arm down quickly to get back into the play, dude. It’s nonsense, internet contrarian bullshit.
 

Auger34

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Just because he does it all the time and is guilty as sin doesn't make it easy. This isn't hockey, goons like him aren't easy to find because it's been long since legislated out of the game. Someone like Grant goes and just hammers someone, odds are he's gonna get a massive suspension, and won't even do it right. Anyone that does it wrong risks losing millions of dollars in current and future earnings, it's not easy to find someone like that.

The guy to do it would have been someone like Haslem, or maybe Giannis' brother. You need someone who really doesn't give a shit, doesn't have much of a future, and is big enough and coordinated enough to make it count (part of what makes Draymond so good at violence is that he's both very fast and very strong). It's harder than we think to find that guy (and it's definitely not Tillman, or anyone on the Celtics roster currently).
I think you are 95% right but I think there’s one more component here that isn’t brought up enough….

Other than the Nurkic thing, every fucking thing Draymond does can be argued from both sides. I don’t know if it’s calculated (I would say the constant nut kicking was, I don’t know about this one) but it sure seems to be

The bottom line here, IMO, is the thing that’s been brought up here a few times (I believe that @PedroKsBambino brought it up first), the NBA’s policy is really bad with this and has allowed draymond to basically run roughshod through the league. If this is the 80s, since people want to bring that up, draymond gets put on his ass multiple times. And I would bet everything I own that Draymond’s whole act would stop immediately after that. He’s a bully and not really a tough guy. Basically all bark no bite.
 

Montana Fan

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You were pretending that he merely brought his arm down quickly to get back into the play, dude. It’s nonsense, internet contrarian bullshit.
Come on, the number of guys that have been slugged in the face during jump balls and tipped balls is innumerable. Watch the replay again and you’ll see that he has no other recourse but to slug DiVincenzo in the side of the head.

Actually, watching the replay again after reading all of these comments and thinking about it some more, makes it even more clear that it’s purposeful.
 

Auger34

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There was talk in here today about him ending someone's career. There was talk during his lengthy suspension that he could seriously injure someone and face a lawsuit.

Sorry for combating hyperbole with more, but some of the takes are over the top. He plays recklessly at times and pushes every limit possible. I get it. But this particular incident is fairly commonplace in professional sports
Just through the Draymond lens here…

Do you think he’s changed at all? When you look at the totality of everything, from his interviews to actions, I don’t know how anyone could say he has.

There has been some hyperbole in this thread no doubt but I think NBA fans are just fucking sick of the guy.
 

Myt1

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Come on, the number of guys that have been slugged in the face during jump balls and tipped balls is innumerable. Watch the replay again and you’ll see that he has no other recourse but to slug DiVincenzo in the side of the head.

Actually, watching the replay again after reading all of these comments and thinking about it some more, makes it even more clear that it’s purposeful.
It’s not like I even object to deliberately hitting a guy in the head every once in awhile. :)

But this pissing on someone’s leg and telling them it’s raining stuff is just beyond silly. Everyone who has ever played or watched a game of basketball post-age 12 or so—and isn’t lying—knows that what Green did was intentional, even before you add in the guy’s history.
 

BigSoxFan

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Just because he does it all the time and is guilty as sin doesn't make it easy. This isn't hockey, goons like him aren't easy to find because it's been long since legislated out of the game. Someone like Grant goes and just hammers someone, odds are he's gonna get a massive suspension, and won't even do it right. Anyone that does it wrong risks losing millions of dollars in current and future earnings, it's not easy to find someone like that.

The guy to do it would have been someone like Haslem, or maybe Giannis' brother. You need someone who really doesn't give a shit, doesn't have much of a future, and is big enough and coordinated enough to make it count (part of what makes Draymond so good at violence is that he's both very fast and very strong). It's harder than we think to find that guy (and it's definitely not Tillman, or anyone on the Celtics roster currently).
Don’t believe I suggested it is easy. My previous post outlined my thoughts. Too much money involved. But I do think it’s interesting that someone doesn’t snap in the heat of the moment during a game. He’s not the only NBA player with a temper.

I also think his intimidation factor is real.
 

lars10

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Don’t believe I suggested it is easy. My previous post outlined my thoughts. Too much money involved. But I do think it’s interesting that someone doesn’t snap in the heat of the moment during a game. He’s not the only NBA player with a temper.

I also think his intimidation factor is real.
Nobody wants to fight a psychopath... plus Draymond is at the end of his career and has made most of the money he'll ever earn.. everyone he's typically intimidating has a lot more to lose than him.