#DFG: Canceling the Noise

Is there any level of suspension that you would advise Tom to accept?


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ent5

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I think geography plays a major role in the resentment. Starting with college football, New England is not "supposed" to be Football country. To have a team from this area dominate this long, can make the fans resort to conspiracy theories.

 
 

ALiveH

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I think it's largely geography and all the associated connotations: intellectual elitism, blue state (when the more diehard fans tend to lean red-state), and that New England isn't "supposed to be" a football powerhouse.  I think the anti-Semitism attribution is a step too far - the thought never even crossed my mind.  There are so many minority owners / coaches of all types, often of fans of the same teams that attack us.  I also think that there are a lot of fans out there that are very emotionally involved but don't want to take the time to learn the intricacies of the rule book or different strategies (such as 3-4, 4-3, nickel, dime, zone blitz, etc) so they are hard-wired to refuse to appreciate Belichick.
 
On another note, I enjoyed this article in NY Post, of all places, that compared the NFL under Goodell to FIFA, IOC & the USSR, citing incompetence, arrogance, etc but without directly mentioning the Patriots at all.  I think Goodell's seat is getting warmer.
http://nypost.com/2015/09/11/is-the-nfl-turning-into-an-american-fifa/
 

Marciano490

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It is jealousy bordering on blind rage. We've learned that football probably has become more important than it should be, with far too many people deriving their sense of self worth from their teams' performance. And in an era in which the deck is stacked so heavily in favor of pariity, the success the Pats have earned is unbearable to lots of fans of other teams.

Particularly when it is attributable in large part to being smart. We've learned, sadly, that most football fans are not very smart and that their professed concern for the integrity of the game is a joke. They would happily have their players jacked up on PEDs once commonly given to race horses.
 
But this doesn't square with how complex football has become and how much that complexity is lauded.  I've watched football every Sunday for years, and frankly I don't know hardly anything about the game, various coverages, A gaps, 2 gaps, etc.  Announcers constantly go on about complex defense, thick playbooks, Wildcats, adjustments, new wrinkles, Chip Kelly's genius, etc.  It's not the overlay of the intelligence to sport, it's specific to us.
 

JimBoSox9

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Marciano490 said:
 
But this doesn't square with how complex football has become and how much that complexity is lauded.  I've watched football every Sunday for years, and frankly I don't know hardly anything about the game, various coverages, A gaps, 2 gaps, etc.  Announcers constantly go on about complex defense, thick playbooks, Wildcats, adjustments, new wrinkles, Chip Kelly's genius, etc.  It's not the overlay of the intelligence to sport, it's specific to us.
 
"It's the winning, stupid".  This interesting tangent has been all about the reactions, and the reactions are effect, not cause.  Anti-intellectualism or antisemitism or whatever else isn't why it's happening, it's just the specifics of how it's been happening.  The 'why' is division titles and AFC title games the Pats haven't been sharing, and fans who have been force-fed a double helping of smoke and bullshit about how A) their team is the bestest, and B) in 'Murica, winning at sports is intrinsically attached (falsely) to 'playing the right way' and being a (whatever this means) 'upstanding individual'.  Belichick and the Pats are an assault on the mentally-constructed worldview of your average NFL neanderthal, and they'll jump any which way to avoid coming to the conclusion that the Pats were just better.
 

Salva135

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You guys are overthinking it.  It's Belichick and Brady.  They were never supposed to be this good at their jobs, and despite not having the accolades prior, they became really, really good.  It inspires all of the conspiracies.
 
The post above me sounds like an academic textbook.  Some of you post like you don't even bother to care what the world outside of New England thinks.   It's as provincial of a worldview as when these states came to be.    The post above seriously sounds like it was written in the 18th Century.
 

TheoShmeo

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I don't think it's in any way fueled by antisemitism and I think for most it is has zero to do with that.  But little in life is binary.  I suspect for some out there, that Kraft identifies strongly as a Jew, with very public stuff like his post-season trips to Israel, adds to the big mix of reasons why the Pats are disliked.
 
For most, it comes down to something much less insidious and much more basic: jealousy.  Players, fans, other owners and even media can't stand seeing one team on top for so long, so they invent a narrative to deride them.  Cheaters, finesse artists, arrogant head coach and pretty boy game manager QB are the usual charges.  No doubt, there are a whole variety of other themes that we hear and don't hear.  
 

Norm loves Vera

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Devizier

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Honestly, I think people are reading too much into anti-Patriots sentiment.
 
A lot of it derives from the NY-NE sports rivalry, and the fact that Boston teams have won 9 (!) total championships in the last fifteen years.
 

Omar's Wacky Neighbor

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norm from cheers said:
This could be interesting... Per Rapoport
 
 
"According to sources informed of the situation, Troy Vincent, NFL Executive VP of Football Operations, has formally requested to meet with Patriots equipment staffer John Jastremski and locker room attendant Jim McNally before either is reinstated by the franchise."
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000528611/article/troy-vincent-requests-to-meet-with-suspended-patriots-staffers?campaign=Twitter_atn
 
Edit:  Typo
I'm going to assume it's to apologize to them. What else could it be?
 

LuckyBen

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I'm sure Wells will serve as legal council and this will serve as the 5th interview. They're going to get that smoking gun or make a new one up in the process.
 

bankshot1

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norm from cheers said:
This could be interesting... Per Rapoport
 
 
"According to sources informed of the situation, Troy Vincent, NFL Executive VP of Football Operations, has formally requested to meet with Patriots equipment staffer John Jastremski and locker room attendant Jim McNally before either is reinstated by the franchise."
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000528611/article/troy-vincent-requests-to-meet-with-suspended-patriots-staffers?campaign=Twitter_atn
 
Edit:  Typo
Sure why not BUT To borrow from Warren Zevon: send Kessler, guns and video
 

Eddie Jurak

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Shank actually wrote a decent column today, detailing the cheating in many of Boston's great sports achievements, including Havilcek's steal in '65 and Orr's iconic goal in '70.  The best, though, was Fisk in 1975:
 
A young Jim McNally was part of the Red Sox grounds crew in those days and had the unenviable assignment of standing inside Fenway’s center field wall, peering through a tiny hole, and transmitting signals to Carl Yastrzemski in the Sox dugout. Nicknamed “The Deflator” by the other kids on the grounds crew, the portly McNally bragged to his friends, “I love working with guys named Yastrzemski.’’ From his perch in deep center, McNally saw Johnny Bench’s sign and knew Fisk was going to get a sinker down and in. McNally panicked for a moment — he was worried that his headset might not be working — but fortunately, the 1975 Motorola technology was up to speed. McNally sent word to the Sox dugout and a sign was relayed to Fisk. Next thing you know, the ball was clanging off the left field foul pole and a couple of little kids named Damon and Affleck were working on a script.
 
 
And his ending:
 
So now we have the New England Patriots. They win Super Bowls but only because they cheat. It’s been proven. More than 90 sources are willing to go on the record as long as you don’t use their names.
 
Pittsburgh Steelers coach Mike Tomlin is on the record. Tomlin got schooled and embarrassed by Belichick and the Patriots on Thursday night. But he reminded us that the Steelers lost only because the Patriots scrambled the signals in the Steelers’ headsets. The Patriots won because they cheated.
 
Again.
 
No more excuses. No more apologies.
 
Did we order the Code Red?
 
You’re damn right we did.
 
 
Wish ol' Shank would use his powers for good more often.
 

lambeau

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I think Tomlin showed the basic psychology that applies to the Colts, Ravens Rams, etc. He was out coached, his secondary befuddled by McDaniels, it was embarrassing.
It's hard to stand up and admit the other guy is not only smarter, but he prepared better; that's why Belichick said he always is ready for headset malfunctions and he's not much into excuses. You won't hear accusations from good coaches like Chip Kelly. That tells you a lot. He knows why the Patriots win.
 

Ed Hillel

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Do you think anyone other than Schefter/Florio will ask why Vincent wants to see these guys if the NFL was not pulling the strings on the suspension? I hope they sue if Vincent suspends them any significant amount of time.
 

Don Buddin's GS

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Having lived thru the Auerbach/Celtic era, the parallels to the Pats envy are many:  the gamesmanship, real or imagined, that got into other teams heads; the dead spots on the Garden floor; the moves no one else thought of like trading for the ability to draft Russell or picking Bird a year early and waiting for him to finish up at ISU; the FU victory cigar.  
 
Bottom line:  if you can't beat 'em, bitch about 'em.
 

amarshal2

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Ed Hillel said:
Do you think anyone other than Schefter/Florio will ask why Vincent wants to see these guys if the NFL was not pulling the strings on the suspension? I hope they sue if Vincent suspends them any significant amount of time.
Defamation! Defamation!!!
 

snowmanny

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Don Buddin's GS said:
Having lived thru the Auerbach/Celtic era, the parallels to the Pats envy are many:  the gamesmanship, real or imagined, that got into other teams heads; the dead spots on the Garden floor; the moves no one else thought of like trading for the ability to draft Russell or picking Bird a year early and waiting for him to finish up at ISU; the FU victory cigar.  
 
Bottom line:  if you can't beat 'em, bitch about 'em.
Cold water, fire alarms at the hotel, etc etc.  In addition to Russell and Bird they picked Ainge when he wasn't supposed to be available. And the one people really complained about was JoJo White: he was going to be the #3 pick in the draft but for a military commitment - that was mysteriously shortened after Auerbach selected White at #9. There are definitely similarities.  
 
And of course when the Celtics happened to have a mostly white roster New York sportswriters wrote a book about how the team was clearly racist, despite the fact that one version of that team was probably the greatest team ever.  As in #DFG where a low psi was proof of ball tampering, here the argument was that Rick Carlisle being on a roster is de facto evidence of racism.
 
Edit: grammar
 

RGREELEY33

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Omar's Wacky Neighbor said:
If I'm Kessler, I'm showing up pro bono, just to see the look on Vincent's face
I hope McNally agrees to meet with him. In a Dunkin Donuts in Manchester with Kessler sitting next to him sharing a box of munchkins.
 

mwonow

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ALiveH said:
I think it's largely geography and all the associated connotations: intellectual elitism, blue state (when the more diehard fans tend to lean red-state), and that New England isn't "supposed to be" a football powerhouse.  I think the anti-Semitism attribution is a step too far - the thought never even crossed my mind.  There are so many minority owners / coaches of all types, often of fans of the same teams that attack us.  I also think that there are a lot of fans out there that are very emotionally involved but don't want to take the time to learn the intricacies of the rule book or different strategies (such as 3-4, 4-3, nickel, dime, zone blitz, etc) so they are hard-wired to refuse to appreciate Belichick.
 
On another note, I enjoyed this article in NY Post, of all places, that compared the NFL under Goodell to FIFA, IOC & the USSR, citing incompetence, arrogance, etc but without directly mentioning the Patriots at all.  I think Goodell's seat is getting warmer.
http://nypost.com/2015/09/11/is-the-nfl-turning-into-an-american-fifa/
I love the bottom of the piece, where it says "FILED UNDER: CORRUPTION, FIFA, NFL"
 
Nice. 
 
Question to the billionaire boys: y'all still think RG is doing a bang-up job?
 

Slow Rheal

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Rapaport saying on NFLN that Troy Vincent (besides wanting to be able to look them in the eye) wants to hold them accountable for their actions in DG, and possibly impose fines/suspensions for the Dorito Dinks.
 

Archer1979

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TheoShmeo said:
I don't think it's in any way fueled by antisemitism and I think for most it is has zero to do with that.  But little in life is binary.  I suspect for some out there, that Kraft identifies strongly as a Jew, with very public stuff like his post-season trips to Israel, adds to the big mix of reasons why the Pats are disliked.
 
For most, it comes down to something much less insidious and much more basic: jealousy.  Players, fans, other owners and even media can't stand seeing one team on top for so long, so they invent a narrative to deride them.  Cheaters, finesse artists, arrogant head coach and pretty boy game manager QB are the usual charges.  No doubt, there are a whole variety of other themes that we hear and don't hear.  
 
I never really thought of any of this as having anti-semitism at its root, but given the nature of this entire episode, having no proof of anything shouldn't at all be construed as a deterrent.
 
I've watched the Patriots since '75 and this franchise transform from a train-wreck that everyone liked to point at and laugh into a perennial contender and one of the most valuable franchises on the planet.  That they could do it, and other franchises are decades into their five-year plans has to be somewhat grating.  But in the other owner's minds, the Pats were always supposed to suck, and the Pats have simply upset the status quo.  I don't believe this to be the case for all owners, for example, Jerry Jones who appears to be just saying if an unjust punishment was good enough for the Cowboys during that salary cap fiasco, then its good enough for Kraft (who talked Jones into accepting the hit).
 
Where it's getting the coaches and the GM's is that Belichick is so much better at his job than most of his contemporaries, and the results are showing that its not even close.  Red Auerbach is a very good analog for what we're seeing as each whine and each excuse that comes out stems primarily from the idea of if Belichick is that much better than us, that must mean that we're that much worse.  That's not an easy concept for Type A's who are at the pinnacle of their careers, so, in their minds, there has to be something else and it has to be devious rather than clever (seeing as they are their own hero in their story).
 
Personally, I love that they keep changing the rules to attempt to derail the Patriots.  Belichick is a tax attorney in a room full of bookkeepers.  You put another rule in the rule book, he'll either find another loophole, or use the new rule to his advantage.  More rules are more toys with which he can play.  
 

naclone

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Slow Rheal said:
Rapaport saying on NFLN that Troy Vincent (besides wanting to be able to look them in the eye) wants to hold them accountable for their actions in DG, and possibly impose fines/suspensions for the Dorito Dinks.
He also said that, unlike Brady, their involvement was not disputed. Which is baffling since McNally, Jastremski, Brady, Kraft and others all dispute their involvement.
 

Gorton Fisherman

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I don't think the Pats have much to worry about regarding a meeting/interrogation to be conducted by Troy Vincent.

I wonder if he will "include science" this time.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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naclone said:
He also said that, unlike Brady, their involvement was not disputed. Which is baffling since McNally, Jastremski, Brady, Kraft and others all dispute their involvement.
 
Involvement in terms of them handling the balls in question isn't in dispute.  They've got them on video carrying the balls to and from the officials room.  What is absolutely disputable is whether or not they actually did anything nefarious or against the rules with the balls when they possessed them.
 

Gambler7

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Slow Rheal said:
Rapaport saying on NFLN that Troy Vincent (besides wanting to be able to look them in the eye) wants to hold them accountable for their actions in DG, and possibly impose fines/suspensions for the Dorito Dinks.
Rich Eisen had a good followup to Rapaport. He said I don't understand this. What exactly is he doing then, are they just supposed to sit there?
 
This makes zero sense. Didn't NFL security already interview them three times right after the incident? Troy Vincent's letter back in May states: 
"Neither of these individuals may be reinstated without the prior approval of NFL Executive Vice President of Football Operations Troy Vincent. If they are reinstated by the Patriots, Jastremski is prohibited from having any role in the preparation, supervision, or handling of footballs to be used in NFL games during the 2015 season. McNally is barred from serving as a locker room attendant for the game officials, or having any involvement with the preparation, supervision, or handling of footballs or any other equipment on game day."
 
So they have been suspended since May. the NFL already punished them as described in the letter. Now they want to go back and "hold them accountable" and open it up again?
 

Hoya81

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Slow Rheal said:
Rapaport saying on NFLN that Troy Vincent (besides wanting to be able to look them in the eye) wants to hold them accountable for their actions in DG, and possibly impose fines/suspensions for the Dorito Dinks.
They're already suspended without pay. If the NFL wants to fine these guys after already fining the team 1 million, hopefully it will be seen as piling on.
 

johnmd20

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Anti semitism and provinciality, because MA is a liberal blue state, owned by a Jewish man. Some of you are absolutely fucked in the head.
 

riboflav

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Well played once again by the NFL. Story will be on the front burner AGAIN. Pats have to make a decision whether to make them available for interviews. If they go, they say something RG can use out of context to leak to ESPN (even if attorneys are there) that make everyone look incredibly guilty - including Brady. If they don't go, it's because they're hiding something. HaHa. GJGE Patriots.
 

riboflav

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Gambler7 said:
Rich Eisen had a good followup to Rapaport. He said I don't understand this. What exactly is he doing then, are they just supposed to sit there?
 
This makes zero sense. Didn't NFL security already interview them three times right after the incident? Troy Vincent's letter back in May states: 
"Neither of these individuals may be reinstated without the prior approval of NFL Executive Vice President of Football Operations Troy Vincent. If they are reinstated by the Patriots, Jastremski is prohibited from having any role in the preparation, supervision, or handling of footballs to be used in NFL games during the 2015 season. McNally is barred from serving as a locker room attendant for the game officials, or having any involvement with the preparation, supervision, or handling of footballs or any other equipment on game day."
 
So they have been suspended since May. the NFL already punished them as described in the letter. Now they want to go back and "hold them accountable" and open it up again?
 
It's PR.
 
EDIT: So much for the theory that Goodell is losing his grip on his office and that it's actually been some of his underlings steering the ship lately. Vincent's move today signifies that RG is still all in in trying to railroad the Pats. It's going to be a dog fight between the NFL and the Pats every damn second of every damn day until there are major changes in one office or the other.
 

ElcaballitoMVP

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The NFL just doesn't want this to go away, huh? I guess it's better than talking about concussions and abusing women and children. 
 
If the Dinks get suspended, the NFL continues to shape the "Patriots and Brady are guilty, Brady just got off on a technicality that we still disagree with" narrative. 
 

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ElcaballitoMVP said:
The NFL just doesn't want this to go away, huh? I guess it's better than talking about concussions and abusing women and children. 
 
This is it, 100%.
 
Been said before, but this is the smokescreen that keeps on giving for the NFL. It's gotta get exposed at some point, but we're not even close as long as the PR machine keeps feeding delicious Pats/cheaters platters to the media.
 

Norm loves Vera

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Well I certainly hope they have representation sitting next to them if/when they appear before Vincent or an NFL investigator.  The NFL leak machine will rail road them before the two are on the Acela back to Boston.  There needs to be an advocate in the room with them and a voice to the media disputing the BS that "sources" will be putting out to the masses. 
 
I like the fact the McNally lost a lot of weight and can walk into the NFL offices and say he is the Deflator with a straight face.
 

riboflav

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norm from cheers said:
Well I certainly hope they have representation sitting next to them if/when they appear before Vincent or an NFL investigator.  The NFL leak machine will rail road them before the two are on the Acela back to Boston.  There needs to be an advocate in the room with them and a voice to the media disputing the BS that "sources" will be putting out to the masses. 
 
I like the fact the McNally lost a lot of weight and can walk into the NFL offices and say he is the Deflator with a straight face.
 
 
This is a PR battle. I'd prefer to have Adam Schefter or Mike Reiss sitting there rather than an attorney. 
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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riboflav said:
 
 
This is a PR battle. I'd prefer to have Adam Schefter or Mike Reiss sitting there rather than an attorney. 
 
I'll take anyone with a phone and a Periscope account.
 

allstonite

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ElcaballitoMVP said:
The NFL just doesn't want this to go away, huh? I guess it's better than talking about concussions and abusing women and children. 
 
If the Dinks get suspended, the NFL continues to shape the "Patriots and Brady are guilty, Brady just got off on a technicality that we still disagree with" narrative. 
 
What do you mean? Rog just wants this to go away and focus on football. He even said so on one of his interviews that he makes available to all members of the media every single day. The very same interview he made it seem like the NFL wasn't involved in these two's employment status
 

glennhoffmania

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wiffleballhero said:
Yes, I think this is very much part of it, underscored by Belichick's Wesleyan background.
 
I also fear that you can go even further with this point and say that part of the hostility to the Pats is coded antisemitism.  
Oh for Christ's sake. Now Kraft's religion is part of the issue? I didn't even know he was Jewish and I bet most people don't know and/or don't give a shit.
 

riboflav

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Not buying the whole elitist, blue state, effete argument. After all, the SF 49ers tend not to suffer the same treatment as the Patriots. 
 

Al Zarilla

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Don Buddin's GS said:
Having lived thru the Auerbach/Celtic era, the parallels to the Pats envy are many:  the gamesmanship, real or imagined, that got into other teams heads; the dead spots on the Garden floor; the moves no one else thought of like trading for the ability to draft Russell or picking Bird a year early and waiting for him to finish up at ISU; the FU victory cigar.  
 
Bottom line:  if you can't beat 'em, bitch about 'em.
No air conditioning at the Garden in the 1984 finals and supposedly 96 degrees in the Lakers locker room. Did Red have anything to do with that?
 
Was there ever anything as good as the victory cigar for a "we beat you assholes" statement? Of course, today, no smoking in the building. I recall Red went a few rows up into the stands to smoke it, maybe in later years, not wanting to smoke on the bench. Made it more visible.
 

( . ) ( . ) and (_!_)

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Pats should have the two guys sit down for a long interview with a media outlet prior to meeting with Vincent. Get their story out on paper before the NFL leak machine gives it a spin.

I vote for Sally Jenkins. Give her a reward for being awesome thru this saga. Sure it might ruffle some feathers at the Globe but screw those guys.

Kraft has been so naive through this whole thing. Let's see if he has finally woken up.
 

mwonow

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( . ) ( . ) and (_!_) said:
Pats should have the two guys sit down for a long interview with a media outlet prior to meeting with Vincent. Get their story out on paper before the NFL leak machine gives it a spin.

I vote for Sally Jenkins. Give her a reward for being awesome thru this saga. Sure it might ruffle some feathers at the Globe but screw those guys.

Kraft has been so naive through this whole thing. Let's see if he has finally woken up.
 
I agree, Jenkins or Florio. Reiss is good, but ESPN isn't trustworthy. Screw the Globe, they've been as eager to toe the NFL line as any outlet (at least, outside Indy).
 

amarshal2

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AB in DC said:
Great idea but would JM want to go along?  He'd probably be able to make five or six figures selling his story to a tabloid.
If he is going to deny involvement he could probably sell it for $50. He would need to sell out Brady or BB to get 5-6 figures.
 

weeba

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http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/09/14/patriots-employees-won-face-additional-discipline-from-nfl/q69xCxW2JcFOyr4yonteiL/story.html
 
 
A league source confirmed Monday morning the NFL won’t give any further discipline to Jastremski and McNally, the two Patriots employees accused by the league of intentionally deflating footballs before the AFC Championship Game in January, which ultimately led to a lengthy investigation and the loss of a first-round draft pick for the Patriots.