Celtics Trade Timelord, Brogdon, and picks for Jrue Holiday

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The only sports merch I've bought in the past decade has been Marcus Smart related, but Jrue Holiday might just be the easiest guy to root for in the league. In addition to the stuff with Lauren (for those who don't know, his college-sweetheart/wife Lauren Holiday is a two time gold medalist and World Cup winner for the USWNT, she had brain cancer, and Jrue took a leave of absence during the season to care for her, and now they both do a ton of community/advocacy work, plus their kids are Deuce-level cute), he won the Teammate of the Year Award three times and is universally loved by players, journos and fans. Plus he's really really good at basketball and a great fit for this team.

If you find it hard to root for Jrue Holiday its only because you're not familiar with him. Give it until November.
Well said.
 

Eddie Jurak

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I understand the sentimentality of wanting to win with Smart and TL, but from every possible view of this team now in a basketball lens, they are so much better now than they were when the season ended two months ago.
How about from the view of needing players to guard Giannis in the ECF? Horford can do it some, but he's 37. Grant, TL, and Smart could do it some, but they are gone. You probably don't want Tatum on him too much because you don't want Tatum in foul trouble. Same for Brown.
 

Ale Xander

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The only sports merch I've bought in the past decade has been Marcus Smart related, but Jrue Holiday might just be the easiest guy to root for in the league. In addition to the stuff with Lauren (for those who don't know, his college-sweetheart/wife Lauren Holiday is a two time gold medalist and World Cup winner for the USWNT, she had brain cancer, and Jrue took a leave of absence during the season to care for her, and now they both do a ton of community/advocacy work, plus their kids are Deuce-level cute), he won the Teammate of the Year Award three times and is universally loved by players, journos and fans. Plus he's really really good at basketball and a great fit for this team.

If you find it hard to root for Jrue Holiday its only because you're not familiar with him. Give it until November.
Not that it makes what he did any less honorable or heroic, but point of clarity, Lauren had a benign not a cancerous tumor. And yes jrue is easy to root for. He’s just less entertaining to me than Smart or TL as of this point.
 

Imbricus

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It’s not inconceivable that the direct result of the trade of Jrue for Dame is a net loss for the Bucks. Are they better with Jrue and no Dame, and consequently Jrue not a Celtic?
Yes, this is the position that Skip Bayless is taking on his show with Keyshawn. Bayless also brought out an interesting statistic, on defensive win shares:

Jrue ranked fourth last year. Lillard ranked 294th.
 

brendan f

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Hate trading Rob, but this team is going to absolutely romp.

Pick your poison with the starting group...

A1
White
Holiday
Brown
Tatum
Porzingis

A2
Holiday
Brown
Tatum
Porzingis
Horford

Role Players/Clean-up Crew
Pritchard
Svi
Hauser
Brissett
Kornet

Joe doesn't need to choose between one lineup or the other; I expect it will be dependent on opponent. Either might be the best starting group since the Durant Warriors. Lethal.
 

djbayko

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To me, Jr and Dr are clearly different pronunciations. Hard to hear the difference, but starting with a “jah” sound or a “dah” sound is different. Totally understand it’s one syllable.
Thank you. I was wondering what was going on in here. With the way people were talking so confidently about the “D” pronunciation, I assumed Jrue specifically wanted it pronounced that way or something.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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Can someone tell me about Queta? I have seen his name mentioned a bit but I’m not familiar and I’ve been away for two weeks so I don’t think I caught the initial pickup.
 

mwonow

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Hate trading Rob, but this team is going to absolutely romp.

Pick your poison with the starting group...

A1
White
Holiday
Brown
Tatum
Porzingis

A2
Holiday
Brown
Tatum
Porzingis
Horford

Role Players/Clean-up Crew
Pritchard
Svi
Hauser
Brissett
Kornet

Joe doesn't need to choose between one lineup or the other; I expect it will be dependent on opponent. Either might be the best starting group since the Durant Warriors. Lethal.
Based on not much besides the comments and highlights in the Wenyen Gabriel thread, I think he's going to be higher up the role player list than might currently be guessed. He played 15 minutes/game with the Lakers last season, and looks like he brings athleticism and a shot-blocking and rebounding presence that might help fill a bit of the TL void, something the guys listed above cant really do.

Apropos of nothing, he's Sudanese, but went to HS in Wilbraham.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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Based on not much besides the comments and highlights in the Wenyen Gabriel thread, I think he's going to be higher up the role player list than might currently be guessed. He played 15 minutes/game with the Lakers last season, and looks like he brings athleticism and a shot-blocking and rebounding presence that might help fill a bit of the TL void, something the guys listed above cant really do.

Apropos of nothing, he's Sudanese, but went to HS in Wilbraham.
Ah man I got excited for a second that a Chaug grad made it to the Association but as suspected he was an academy grad. Bill Guerin (and famous SoSHer mabrowndog) remains the shining star.
 

brendan f

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Based on not much besides the comments and highlights in the Wenyen Gabriel thread, I think he's going to be higher up the role player list than might currently be guessed. He played 15 minutes/game with the Lakers last season, and looks like he brings athleticism and a shot-blocking and rebounding presence that might help fill a bit of the TL void, something the guys listed above cant really do.
He's graded out pretty horrifically offensively so far throughout his career. I mean, there's a reason he was available for a camp deal. Has some intriguing athletic traits that could serve the team in a specific role, maybe some potential untapped upside but that's being pretty optimistic.
 

The Mort Report

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Based on not much besides the comments and highlights in the Wenyen Gabriel thread, I think he's going to be higher up the role player list than might currently be guessed. He played 15 minutes/game with the Lakers last season, and looks like he brings athleticism and a shot-blocking and rebounding presence that might help fill a bit of the TL void, something the guys listed above cant really do.

Apropos of nothing, he's Sudanese, but went to HS in Wilbraham.
We can't forget about Lamar Stevens either. Dude is the same size as Grant, an above average defender who got 18 minutes a game on the 4th seeded Cavs last year. He's not great from 3 (31.6% last year), but not bad enough to be ignored on O
 

benhogan

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How about from the view of needing players to guard Giannis in the ECF? Horford can do it some, but he's 37. Grant, TL, and Smart could do it some, but they are gone. You probably don't want Tatum on him too much because you don't want Tatum in foul trouble. Same for Brown.
Grant guarded him but not very effectively. Players started going over Grant last year. TL is a phenomenal help defender, but never really was responsible for Giannis. Jrue/Smart is a wash defensively

Horford has been their best Giannis defender. AND Tatum/Brown are now big enough to slow Giannis down. Stevens (6'6" 230) was recently added to be that bench guy to get up underneath Giannis.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkEILYJnl1Q
 

brendan f

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We can't forget about Lamar Stevens either. Dude is the same size as Grant, an above average defender who got 18 minutes a game on the 4th seeded Cavs last year. He's not great from 3 (31.6% last year), but not bad enough to be ignored on O
I didn't forget about him (speaking of horrific offense). Sure, he has a chance to crack the rotation. He also has a chance to not even make the team. Brad apparently told him they were looking for him to fill the void of a lock-down defender. Position aside, that need became less after trading for Holiday.
 

radsoxfan

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To echo (most of) the choir, I don’t envision any issues rooting for this Celtics team.

If they had traded Tatum or Brown, I get the identity we have been rooting for the last few years might be lost a bit. But otherwise, role players come and go.

Would it have been awesome if a nearly entirely homegrown team won it all? Of course. But they had their chances and it didn’t work out.

I like Timelord and Smart as much as the next guy but Brad somehow has managed to get Jrue Holiday, Kristaps Porzingis, Derrick White and Al Horford by giving up likely mediocre first round picks, a wearing down Marcus Smart, and the often injured Timelord.

Even if you remove Tatum and Jaylen, Brad somehow put together a solid Eastern Conference playoff team out of very little. JH, DW, PP, SH, KP, and big Al as a top 6 would be a pretty tough out round 1.

That’s…. very strong work.

Brad’s ability to draft stars like Tatum/Jaylen high in the lottery is a big unknown (fortunately) at this point, but otherwise he’s damn good.
 

Return of the Dewey

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It will be interesting to see if Giannis plays more in the paint with Dame in lineup. I can see Cs playing a bit of box and 1 with Holliday hounding Dame and the rest of team collapsing around Giannis. This is where the Celtics new assistant coaches will, hopefully, prove their worth.
 

The Mort Report

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I didn't forget about him (speaking of horrific offense). Sure, he has a chance to crack the rotation. He also has a chance to not even make the team. Brad apparently told him they were looking for him to fill the void of a lock-down defender. Position aside, that need became less after trading for Holiday.
Fair, but the one "knock" I've seen on Holiday is unlike Smart, he can't guard too far up. I think this team is going to need a bigger defender, be it Stevens or Brissett. Ideally though that player would be like 2 inches taller than either of them
 

benhogan

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Even if you remove Tatum and Jaylen, Brad somehow put together a solid Eastern Conference playoff team out of very little. JH, DW, PP, SH, KP, and big Al as a top 6 would be a pretty tough out round 1.

That’s…. very strong work.

Brad’s ability to draft stars like Tatum/Jaylen high in the lottery is a big unknown (fortunately) at this point, but otherwise he’s damn good.
Good point. In 2 years, Brad has completely consolidated/concentrated the talent, & rebuilt this team, around the JAYs.

In every trade, he has added the best player (with a focus on +/- & On-Off)

OUT: Fournier, Kemba, Tristan Thompson, Langford, Nesmith, Smart, TimeLord, 3 Firsts + '28 swap + '29 First

IN/OUT to consolidate & trade up: Brogdon, Theis, Schroder, JRich, Muscala

IN: Horford, White, KP, Jrue
Developing: Hauser, Kornet, PP

Brad still has $6.2MM TPE + 2 Firsts + 7 Seconds + 3 Pick swaps to upgrade between now & the deadline
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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The only sports merch I've bought in the past decade has been Marcus Smart related, but Jrue Holiday might just be the easiest guy to root for in the league. In addition to the stuff with Lauren (for those who don't know, his college-sweetheart/wife Lauren Holiday is a two time gold medalist and World Cup winner for the USWNT, she had brain cancer, and Jrue took a leave of absence during the season to care for her, and now they both do a ton of community/advocacy work, plus their kids are Deuce-level cute), he won the Teammate of the Year Award three times and is universally loved by players, journos and fans. Plus he's really really good at basketball and a great fit for this team.

If you find it hard to root for Jrue Holiday its only because you're not familiar with him. Give it until November.
In addition to this, Jrue really made a difference when he showed up to the Olympic team. His defense was the missing part of that squad. Really excited to see him play.
 

kazuneko

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Bingo
Or, rather Jr and Dr sound exactly the same in that spelling (I've heard a lot of folks do it as two syllables- e.g. jay-rew, and that's incorrect).
I don’t get this. Are people really hearing Drew and Jrue the same? I distinctly hear a difference. I get and agree that it’s not two syllables when you hear him or his wife say it, but “jru” and “dru” don’t sound the same.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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I don’t know what, if any, linguistic quirk this is but I have always always pronounced Drew as Jrue rather than leading with the harder D sound. Tongue more at the roof of the mouth than the front. I am not a linguist and have never given it a moment’s thought until now. Maybe a linguist can chime in.
 

slamminsammya

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I don’t get this. Are people really hearing Drew and Jrue the same? I distinctly hear a difference. I get and agree that it’s not two syllables when you hear him or his wife say it, but “jru” and “dru” don’t sound the same.
I say those the exact same. I can't actually think of how they might sound different.
 

kazuneko

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I say those the exact same. I can't actually think of how they might sound different.
I don’t know what to say. Just asked my wife and she agreed with me - she couldn’t understand how anyone couldn’t hear the difference. Is this a blue dress vs white dress thing? Or perhaps it’s a difference that comes from subtle differences in dialects. All I know is that jrue and drew sound as different to me as ju and du, and that when I enunciate one I start with a “j” sound and with the other I start with a “d” sound.
 

lovegtm

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I don’t know what to say. Just asked my wife and she agreed with me - she couldn’t understand how anyone couldn’t hear the difference. Is this a blue dress vs white dress thing? Or perhaps it’s a difference that comes from subtle differences in dialects. All I know is that jrue and drew sound as different to me as ju and du, and that when I enunciate one I start with a “j” sound and with the other I start with a “d” sound.
I think it's simpler: some people pronounce "Drew" as "j", and some as "d".

I and most people I know do so with a "j", but I can sound it out either way, and it's different.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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I don't feel this way at all. I liked Marcus, good player (better guy) and loved Rob's athleticism, but rooting for this year's Celtics team is going to be a blast.
Sure. Until the first KP/Jrue alley-oop attempt.
 

brendan f

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Fair, but the one "knock" I've seen on Holiday is unlike Smart, he can't guard too far up.
This isn't true. In fact, the Bucks' Athletic beat reporter said he's more comfortable guarding bigger guys than smaller, quicker guys. He can switch, and do it well.
 

bankshot1

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I don’t know what, if any, linguistic quirk this is but I have always always pronounced Drew as Jrue rather than leading with the harder D sound. Tongue more at the roof of the mouth than the front. I am not a linguist and have never given it a moment’s thought until now. Maybe a linguist can chime in.
There better be a lot of D in Jrue, tangible or intangible, but a fucking HARD D.

I'm warming to this trade, but I'm concerned that CJM will burn out the Parquet Six by Christmas.

And I'm serious about depth/coaching concerns.

LETS GO CELTS!
 
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benhogan

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This isn't true. In fact, the Bucks' Athletic beat reporter said he's more comfortable guarding bigger guys than smaller, quicker guys. He can switch, and do it well.
Defense is really hard to measure, but it's probably a wash between Smart/Jrue.

Marcus does his with a little more flair/fanfare, which can get the crowd going. The Celtics will miss that in December games. Marcus' all-out effort in regular season games was a blessing and a curse. He played injured at the end of last season and wasn't nearly the defensive force Boston needed him to be.

I suspect Brad was selling high on Marcus since his style of play won't age well or carry into the playoffs in the future.
 

lovegtm

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There better be a lot of D in Jrue, tangible or intangible, but a fucking HARD D.

I'm warming to this trade, but I'm concerned that CJM will burn out the Parquet Six by Christmas.

And I'm serious about depth/coaching concerns.

LETS GO CELTS!
We'll see how he ages, but Jrue is maybe the best all-around defender at the guard position in the league. He plays big, like Marcus, but is much better at also defending smaller guards.

People here might not have watched him that much, but he's really, really good, and a step up from Marcus in nearly every way on both ends.
 

bankshot1

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We'll see how he ages, but Jrue is maybe the best all-around defender at the guard position in the league. He plays big, like Marcus, but is much better at also defending smaller guards.

People here might not have watched him that much, but he's really, really good, and a step up from Marcus in nearly every way on both ends.
I have no problem with Holiday, I like him a lot, just having fun with the "D" aspect of his name pronunciation and the trade rationale
 

InstaFace

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Jrue's defensive highlights from the 2021 title run are impressive af, and very diverse:
Them's some very slick hands right there. Derrick White++ in terms of awareness of where it's going and how to reach around or surprise someone.

Unfortunately, the most banal "did he stay in front of his guy and make a tough shot tougher", or "did he switch properly and get his footwork right to deny penetration" type plays aren't flashy enough to make a highlight reel. But the stats capture it, don't they, and we'll see plenty of that soon enough.
 

InstaFace

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All I know is @JohnnyTheBone already has his Rue Holiday posts queued up the first time he has a poor shooting night.
Once his 3-point shot is falling: TRUE HOLIDAY!

On the road when he commits a bad foul: BOO HOLIDAY!

Gets in a car accident because Boston drivers: SUE HOLIDAY!

New sponsorship with Milk Council: MOO HOLIDAY!

Fixes a lighting issue in the arena: CREW HOLIDAY!

Buys into a local beer distributor...
 

Auger34

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Once his 3-point shot is falling: TRUE HOLIDAY!

On the road when he commits a bad foul: BOO HOLIDAY!

Gets in a car accident because Boston drivers: SUE HOLIDAY!

New sponsorship with Milk Council: MOO HOLIDAY!

Fixes a lighting issue in the arena: CREW HOLIDAY!

Buys into a local beer distributor...
If he says anything negative about the coaching staff: COUP HOLIDAY
 

lovegtm

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Them's some very slick hands right there. Derrick White++ in terms of awareness of where it's going and how to reach around or surprise someone.

Unfortunately, the most banal "did he stay in front of his guy and make a tough shot tougher", or "did he switch properly and get his footwork right to deny penetration" type plays aren't flashy enough to make a highlight reel. But the stats capture it, don't they, and we'll see plenty of that soon enough.
Tbf, in a lot of highlights there he expertly navigates screens and moves his feet to set up the flashy stuff. That's what really impressed me.
 

Imbricus

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I'm slowly warming to this. I don't see it as the same home run as Smart for Porzingis plus picks. Smart I thought had become a bit overrated; his defense appeared to slide (injury or not) during his last season here. I was tired of watching him casually walk the ball upcourt, and tired of the cute passes (that looked great when they worked, but too often turned into turnovers and reminded us that he isn't an elite passer). All we heard after the trade was how the Celtics lost the "heart and soul" of the team, but that was overplayed too. I mostly felt bad for Smart in that trade; it really caught him by surprise.

I don't like losing Rob in this trade -- I think that's the biggest gamble. If his knee just continues to go downhill, and he continues to be fragile, no big loss. But there's a not insignificant chance he turns into a guy who can manage the condition and get close to the defensive beast we saw a couple of years ago, and for the rest of his contract. If that happens, I think we lost the trade. But Jrue does bring (by all accounts) a great personality, an intensely competitive nature, and a high-level game on both the offensive and defensive ends of the floor. I'd actually rather have him than Lillard because I think Jrue will just be a great fit.
 

NomarsFool

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The only thing I don't like about the trade is if Jrue is only a one year player, then it seems like a pretty steep price.
 

InstaFace

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I don't like losing Rob in this trade -- I think that's the biggest gamble. If his knee just continues to go downhill, and he continues to be fragile, no big loss. But there's a not insignificant chance he turns into a guy who can manage the condition and get close to the defensive beast we saw a couple of years ago, and for the rest of his contract. If that happens, I think we lost the trade. But Jrue does bring (by all accounts) a great personality, an intensely competitive nature, and a high-level game on both the offensive and defensive ends of the floor. I'd actually rather have him than Lillard because I think Jrue will just be a great fit.
Right the worst case scenario is that we lost the deal by a little bit, while getting the best player in the deal regardless. There's definitely a nonzero chance of that, but the probability distribution of TimeLord's outcomes means we're probably 80% or more to have won the trade in the long run. And yeah, I agree, I'd rather have him than Lillard, both for personality and for skills fit. His defense is force-multiplied on this team.

I'm also thinking about where Rob will go, assuming Portland would rather keep Ayton. Miami, Philly, Denver and LAL have well-established centers, where Rob would only be a backup even if fully healthy. But Milwaukee will need a Brook Lopez replacement at some point, who is 35 and signed through next season, and who played all of last season but missed almost all of the previous one. Their only Center on the team besides the Lopez brothers is a guy who hasn't played in 2 years. So they could really, really use a healthy Rob Williams, not least because they have the personnel to use him the way Boston used him, playing off a weak-shooting big so he can poach some rim protection, and rotating to cover him if need be. So let's hope that's not where he ends up.