Celtics Trade Timelord, Brogdon, and picks for Jrue Holiday

The Social Chair

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Jaylen Brown told The Undefeated that he told the Celtics ownership and front office last offseason that it was important to hire a Black head coach after Brad Stevens was promoted to president of basketball operations.

This went into Udoka's hire, and for better or worse, he was wildly popular with the team when he was fired. Joe was a nice fit because he was already on the bench and close with the stars.
 

ManicCompression

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It's going to be hard to convince me that Brad wouldn't have done the Marcus deal anyway, for exactly this reason: the GSW pick was critical in getting the Holiday deal done, and you can't just line up 2 1sts for Smart any time.

I think Brad saw that he was getting good value for Smart, and also getting assets that would be really useful for facilitating deals when good players came free, which always happens.
I agree with Jimmy/Love. That Marcus/Memphis deal came together too quickly for it not to be a foregone conclusion.
I doubt this is how things went down. I think, pretty clearly, Memphis had made a previous inquiry into the availability of Smart. They made an offer but were told he wasn't available. When the Brogdon trade died, Brad pivoted knowing Memphis wanted him and got it done. He was forced to trade a better player, but he also got more assets.
Hollinger said on his podcast with Nate Duncan that the Memphis deal with Smart would have still happened if the KP trade iteration with Brogdon went through. I trust him on that because of his time in Memphis.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Hollinger said on his podcast with Nate Duncan that the Memphis deal with Smart would have still happened if the KP trade iteration with Brogdon went through. I trust him on that because of his time in Memphis.
Interesting. Assuming Smart would have gone for Tyus Jones and draft capital (and salary filler); would PDX have taken Jones and TL for Holiday? If not, then BOS was really fortunate when LAC turned down the MB trade.
 

mwonow

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From today's Celtics Blog, about Jrue's first practice: "the Celtics gave practice an authentic feel on Wednesday, blasting in crowd noise, stadium sound effects and buzzers. Then, the Celtics’ brass watched him debut by meeting Jaylen Brown at the rim a rejection."
 

ManicCompression

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Interesting. Assuming Smart would have gone for Tyus Jones and draft capital (and salary filler); would PDX have taken Jones and TL for Holiday? If not, then BOS was really fortunate when LAC turned down the MB trade.
I thought the same thing. He shared this detail prior to the Jrue trade going through so it seems pretty serendipitous.
 

brendan f

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Hollinger said on his podcast with Nate Duncan that the Memphis deal with Smart would have still happened if the KP trade iteration with Brogdon went through. I trust him on that because of his time in Memphis.
Fascinating. Do you have a link to that particular podcast? I'm not doubting your accuracy but I listen to that podcast on a regular basis and must have missed that part.
I did find this quote from his article in the Athletic:
"In sum, [Boston] turned Marcus Smart, Malcolm Brogdon and Robert Williams into Porziņģis and Holiday. And it all stemmed from the willingness at first to take a half-step back and deal Smart to Memphis, which I’ve been led to believe was already in the works when the Porziņģis trade came up."

That's not exactly reporting, but it does seem to lean in the direction that a Smart trade was imminent. Still, from this limited information, hard to know if the Porzingis trade (with Brogdon) would have altered their plans.
 
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brendan f

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Full Celtics convo starts at around 27 minutes and Hollinger starts going into it around 29 minutes. He’s not “reporting” it but he’s saying “I think they would’ve traded smart to Memphis for Ty jones and picks” with a wink wink
Got it (makes sense that I missed it since I hadn't listened to that episode yet). He sounds pretty sure of himself, and, as you noted, has ties to Memphis so likely had some inside info.

Lends support to the arguments put forth by lovegtm and Jimbodandy
 

HomeRunBaker

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One might argue that this team needed to lose a lot of its personality, replacing it with different personality. Maybe you just don't know the new guys well enough yet.
Jrue has been loved wherever he's been by both the fan base and his teammates. This is far different than the last PG who was acquired via trade....maybe people are still scarred and a little cautious.
 

Jimbodandy

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Jrue has been loved wherever he's been by both the fan base and his teammates. This is far different than the last PG who was acquired via trade....maybe people are still scarred and a little cautious.
Yeah this is two astute observations in one. One, the last big bang moves really were Kyrie/Haywould, and we know that didn't turn out as expected. Two, we knew a little bit that maybe Kyrie didn't play well with others...maybe. But it wasn't as super obvious as it became. Either or both are reasons why folks might be self-medicating on this offseason, which is perfectly fair. When my son heard about KP, he said "yeah another big Celtic trade that gets us psyched for nothing." PTSD. But he was pumped about the Jrue trade and has more optimism overall. Folks should rest assured that Jrue is rock solid as a dude.
 

lovegtm

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Interesting. Assuming Smart would have gone for Tyus Jones and draft capital (and salary filler); would PDX have taken Jones and TL for Holiday? If not, then BOS was really fortunate when LAC turned down the MB trade.
Portland took MB knowing that a #30 pick was the peak of his value. They likely expect to move him for 2nds. I don't think Tyus Jones would have changed things much; maybe Portland asks for an additional 2nd.

If Hollinger's reporting is correct (and based on his connections and the timing of the Smart deal, I don't see much reason to doubt it), Stevens wanted to get picks for Smart and have Jones as a replacement, while having the GSW pick + Jones as matching salary if someone came free.

Things went in a different order when LAC backed out of the Brogdon deal, but the end result is probably the same.
 

Euclis20

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Jrue has been loved wherever he's been by both the fan base and his teammates. This is far different than the last PG who was acquired via trade....maybe people are still scarred and a little cautious.
I just wanted to address the bolded. The Twyman-Stokes Teammate of the year award is meant to recognize the ideal teammate and is given annually to the player that best represents "selfless play and commitment and dedication to his team." It's a relatively new award (2013), and only 9 players have ever won it. Names like Shane Battier, Tim Duncan, Jamal Crawford, Chauncey Billups...and Jrue Holiday, who has won it three times in the last four years. To say that he's liked by his teammates is a massive understatement.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I feel like a team with lots of draft capital that they can’t possibly spend should take a chance on Rob. Spurs have a million picks and have a McDermott expiring that they could flip with a pick for Rob.

Pairing Wemby with Rob could be fun.
I'd expect Rob to be one of the most desirable bigs for a contender to get at the deadline. He's no longer an upside guy imo but a veteran second unit 15-20 mpg who can make a difference in a playoff series.
 

BigSoxFan

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I'd expect Rob to be one of the most desirable bigs for a contender to get at the deadline. He's no longer an upside guy imo but a veteran second unit 15-20 mpg who can make a difference in a playoff series.
If healthy, which is the risk of trying to hold him to the deadline. Salary makes him very easy to trade so could go almost anywhere but he’d definitely be a nice piece for any contender, if healthy.
 

TripleOT

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If healthy, which is the risk of trying to hold him to the deadline. Salary makes him very easy to trade so could go almost anywhere but he’d definitely be a nice piece for any contender, if healthy.
Please keep Rob Williams away from the Lakers. Portland should keep him until next season, and then trade him back to Boston.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Please keep Rob Williams away from the Lakers. Portland should keep him until next season, and then trade him back to Boston.
I mentioned this the other day. Rob may very well end up back in Boston someday down the road as a trade deadline guy.
 

luckiestman

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I asked this about closing games


What is the expected close out lineup in close games, I see two options

A: Zinger, Tatum, Brown, Jrue, White

B: Al, Zinger, Tatum, Brown, Jrue

Is it A if behind and B if ahead? Matchup dependent I guess is the easy answer. If we just say best 5 I guess Al at his best is better than White but Al can be up and down depending on how rested he is.
Lowe thinks for starting games Jrue might come off the bench.

https://www.masslive.com/celtics/2023/10/nba-insider-hints-celtics-considering-surprising-lineup-option.html

“I don’t think this was a one-off,” Zach Lowe said Wednesday on his Lowe Post podcast. “I don’t think this was a let’s see how this looks. He may end up starting a ton of games. Injuries, nights off, matchups, just being so good that we have to start him. I think this has some legs potentially and the reason I think it has legs because they trotted it out in the first game. They didn’t play great but you could feel the spacing and the impact of a real quick trigger center with Kristaps Porzingis. I think they liked Tatum out, Holiday in with Jaylen Brown on the floor because like the Curry on the bench minutes in Golden State, Tatum on the bench has been a problem now for a lot of years.”


Lowe hints that the team is considering bringing Holiday off the bench to help address this issue with Tatum on the bench.
 

Auger34

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I asked this about closing games




Lowe thinks for starting games Jrue might come off the bench.

https://www.masslive.com/celtics/2023/10/nba-insider-hints-celtics-considering-surprising-lineup-option.html

“I don’t think this was a one-off,” Zach Lowe said Wednesday on his Lowe Post podcast. “I don’t think this was a let’s see how this looks. He may end up starting a ton of games. Injuries, nights off, matchups, just being so good that we have to start him. I think this has some legs potentially and the reason I think it has legs because they trotted it out in the first game. They didn’t play great but you could feel the spacing and the impact of a real quick trigger center with Kristaps Porzingis. I think they liked Tatum out, Holiday in with Jaylen Brown on the floor because like the Curry on the bench minutes in Golden State, Tatum on the bench has been a problem now for a lot of years.”


Lowe hints that the team is considering bringing Holiday off the bench to help address this issue with Tatum on the bench.
I haven't listened to the podcast yet and I am normally a huge Zach Lowe fan but that quote makes absolutely no sense...if Holiday isn't starting then Horford is, the same guy who was their starting center last year. So the Celtics prefer to have the slower trigger guy slot in as a 4 and not a 5?
 

HomeRunBaker

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I've been expecting one of Jrue or Derrick to come off the bench so one of them can always be in the game with (mostly) Jaylen in the backcourt. These are our 3 best guards which eliminates Tatum playing virtually all 4.
 

CreightonGubanich

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The problem with bringing Holiday or White off the bench is that it further doubles down on the two-big lineups that I believe they'd like to get away from, and leaves Kornet as the lone semi-playable big on the bench. The roster is so much more balanced if Horford and KP are splitting minutes at the five rather than sharing the floor together.

I'll believe it when I see it. There are other ways to fix the minutes that Tatum sits.
 

Jimbodandy

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The problem with bringing Holiday or White off the bench is that it further doubles down on the two-big lineups that I believe they'd like to get away from, and leaves Kornet as the lone semi-playable big on the bench. The roster is so much more balanced if Horford and KP are splitting minutes at the five rather than sharing the floor together.

I'll believe it when I see it. There are other ways to fix the minutes that Tatum sits.
I hope that they use the regular season to rest guys' minutes even in games that they play. Have White come off the bench occasionally and stay in the 20s, with Al in the 30s. Then another night, flip them. Do it with Jrue and Porzingis occasionally also. Can do it with everyone really, if you want. Six guys getting 60 starts each, leaves rest days and 50ish random starts for the 7-9 guys. No need to grind out the 82.
 

ManicCompression

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I hope that they use the regular season to rest guys' minutes even in games that they play. Have White come off the bench occasionally and stay in the 20s, with Al in the 30s. Then another night, flip them. Do it with Jrue and Porzingis occasionally also. Can do it with everyone really, if you want. Six guys getting 60 starts each, leaves rest days and 50ish random starts for the 7-9 guys. No need to grind out the 82.
Agreed - as long as the personalities don't care, I don't see why they wouldn't often start Brissett or Stevens at the 4 next to KP/JT/JB and one of White/Holiday come off the bench. Having all five of their best players on the floor at the same time is going to mean a lot of mouths to feed, so just break it up a bit more over the first forty minutes and then have the core 5 close out the game.
 

Cornboy14

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In the regular season, all these guys are going to get enough rest that all 6 are going to be “starters”.

I think in the playoffs, it then depends on matchup. Versus Milwaukee you’re almost certainly starting KP and Horford, if both teams are healthy.

Playing Miami, it’d only be one big.

Philly, no idea.
 

FireChief

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Agreed - as long as the personalities don't care, I don't see why they wouldn't often start Brissett or Stevens at the 4 next to KP/JT/JB and one of White/Holiday come off the bench. Having all five of their best players on the floor at the same time is going to mean a lot of mouths to feed, so just break it up a bit more over the first forty minutes and then have the core 5 close out the game.
CBS used to do this rather than move one of the 6-8 guys into the starting 5 so they could maintain their role. However, with the talk of “six starters” it sounds as though they’re more likely to toggle the lineup based on who in the top 6 has a day off rather than move a deeper guy up. But we can dream of Starter Semi redux
 

Jakarta

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For the non-Tatum minutes, I’d like to experiment with those also being the non-Jaylen minutes too (if egos allow it). Having KP be the offensive focal point for those minutes means Jaylen isn’t, which is when he seems to struggle the most (see game 7 ECF for an extreme example). Having Jaylen always playing off Tatum would seem to be a great way to maximize Jaylen’s efficiency and hide his weaknesses.

The problem I see here is this also might mean no Al at the same time if they are getting away from double bigs. So having 3 of the big 6 on the bench may not be ideal, and also means playing PP with both JH and DW isn’t ideal. A lineup of KP/DW/JH/SH/other is still somewhat intriguing to me.
 

chilidawg

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We'll see all kinds of lineups as Joe toggles through them to see what clicks, but the top 6 is essentially 2 bigs/2 wings/2 ball handlers. When games start to really matter it'd make sense to me that you'd want to keep 1 of each on the floor all the time and work the subs in around those 3. Sub out Tatum and White early, then bring them back and take out JB and Holiday for instance. Keep at least one of Horford and Porzingis on the floor at all times.
 

Jakarta

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We'll see all kinds of lineups as Joe toggles through them to see what clicks, but the top 6 is essentially 2 bigs/2 wings/2 ball handlers. When games start to really matter it'd make sense to me that you'd want to keep 1 of each on the floor all the time and work the subs in around those 3. Sub out Tatum and White early, then bring them back and take out JB and Holiday for instance. Keep at least one of Horford and Porzingis on the floor at all times.
I agree that is likely what happens. My point was only that the 2 biggest constants in the non-Tatum minute struggles are Tatum off and JB on, so JB may not be ideally suited to being the lead guy, even for just 10-15 minutes per game. Hopefully he will thrive playing off KP and not try to be the lead guy when Tatum is off the court.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I asked this about closing games




Lowe thinks for starting games Jrue might come off the bench.

https://www.masslive.com/celtics/2023/10/nba-insider-hints-celtics-considering-surprising-lineup-option.html

“I don’t think this was a one-off,” Zach Lowe said Wednesday on his Lowe Post podcast. “I don’t think this was a let’s see how this looks. He may end up starting a ton of games. Injuries, nights off, matchups, just being so good that we have to start him. I think this has some legs potentially and the reason I think it has legs because they trotted it out in the first game. They didn’t play great but you could feel the spacing and the impact of a real quick trigger center with Kristaps Porzingis. I think they liked Tatum out, Holiday in with Jaylen Brown on the floor because like the Curry on the bench minutes in Golden State, Tatum on the bench has been a problem now for a lot of years.”


Lowe hints that the team is considering bringing Holiday off the bench to help address this issue with Tatum on the bench.
I just listened to this and it sounded to me that Lowe (and Pelton) were just speculating: i.e., they didn't have any inside information.
I haven't listened to the podcast yet and I am normally a huge Zach Lowe fan but that quote makes absolutely no sense...if Holiday isn't starting then Horford is, the same guy who was their starting center last year. So the Celtics prefer to have the slower trigger guy slot in as a 4 and not a 5?
Lowe and Pelton brought up a couple of reasons why starting Al makes sense. The most persuasive reason to me is that JT would be the first one out and bringing Jrue in for him would be the best way of maximizing non-JT minutes, which we all know has been a problem spot for the Cs for the last few years. In addition, they noted that for most teams, their biggest lineups are their starting lineups so it makes sense for the Cs to start their biggest lineup.

OTOH, they mentioned that since Al is likely to sit the most games, Jrue starting would probably have the most continuity.
 

TripleOT

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AL needs to adapt to coming off the bench. Jrue is too valuable to not start games. Boston needs to learn to crush teams out of the gate, like all the historically great NBA teams have done. Overwhelm early with your best players, and keep the foot on the gas the rest of the way with your rotation, using one of the Jays to lead the second unit.
 

NomarsFool

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There must be some stats we could look at, like Cs point differential by quarter, or even better, would love to see it first 6 minutes, second 6 minutes, etc. I feel like last season there were so many games where we were playing behind when we shouldn’t have, but that could just be my mind playing tricks on me.
 

HomeRunBaker

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There must be some stats we could look at, like Cs point differential by quarter, or even better, would love to see it first 6 minutes, second 6 minutes, etc. I feel like last season there were so many games where we were playing behind when we shouldn’t have, but that could just be my mind playing tricks on me.
I don't have numbers handy but iirc Boston was right at the top of the league in 1Q performance if not the very top last season. What sticks out in my mind was that they have been at the very top of 1Q defense the past couple seasons.
 

benhogan

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I don't have numbers handy but iirc Boston was right at the top of the league in 1Q performance if not the very top last season. What sticks out in my mind was that they have been at the very top of 1Q defense the past couple seasons.
Using my faulty memory, Q1 was fine last season (but worse than the previous season when they were running out their 2BIGz juggernaut)

Without looking I'd say they probably struggled in late/tight since they underperformed their NetRtg
 

chilidawg

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AL needs to adapt to coming off the bench. Jrue is too valuable to not start games. Boston needs to learn to crush teams out of the gate, like all the historically great NBA teams have done. Overwhelm early with your best players, and keep the foot on the gas the rest of the way with your rotation, using one of the Jays to lead the second unit.
I liked Hauser with the starters against Philly, he's a good fit there. I might try both Horford and Holiday on the bench to start to better even out the usage of the top 6 throughout the game.
 

lovegtm

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The gap between Holiday and Smart on both ends is pretty noticeable, and Jrue is still feeling things out with the team.

It's nice to have a guard who's elite at being a guard, instead of a guard who's elite at all the non-guard things.
 

TripleOT

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Jrue to me is a 21st century Dennis Johnson. His command at both ends of the floor is impressive. Having him as your third or fourth best player is quite the luxury. Already, Jrue and D White are showing how disruptive they can be on defense. When I watch his savvy play, it makes me not miss Marcus Smart at all. He can make the defensive plays Smart is noted for, but is so much better offensively. He’s also much steadier than Smart.
 

lovegtm

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Jrue to me is a 21st century Dennis Johnson. His command at both ends of the floor is impressive. Having him as your third or fourth best player is quite the luxury. Already, Jrue and D White are showing how disruptive they can be on defense. When I watch his savvy play, it makes me not miss Marcus Smart at all. He can make the defensive plays Smart is noted for, but is so much better offensively. He’s also much steadier than Smart.
Imo he's a better defender than Smart, full stop. He's a lot better at guarding quick guards than Smart has been for a few years now, and he guards up very well too (really strong).
 

BigSoxFan

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Imo he's a better defender than Smart, full stop. He's a lot better at guarding quick guards than Smart has been for a few years now, and he guards up very well too (really strong).
He’s basically a better everything than Smart. I still can’t believe Brad was able to upgrade 2 key positions in the same offseason. Porzingis is a much better player than TL and Holiday is a sizeable upgrade over Smart. We lost Brogdon’s reliability off the bench but that’s something you gladly trade away.

Scary thing is thinking about what this unit could be capable of once they’ve had several months together. These guys, if they stay healthy, should take a lot of the wear and tear off of the Jay’s, which has its own value.

Is it Wednesday yet?
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Jrue to me is a 21st century Dennis Johnson. His command at both ends of the floor is impressive. Having him as your third or fourth best player is quite the luxury. Already, Jrue and D White are showing how disruptive they can be on defense. When I watch his savvy play, it makes me not miss Marcus Smart at all. He can make the defensive plays Smart is noted for, but is so much better offensively. He’s also much steadier than Smart.
I mentioned this in another thread but there's a lot more off-ball motion in his game (at least up to now) than Smart. There's a lot more motion in the Cs offense (up to now) than in the past, which is great.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Is anyone really questioning that Jrue, even at 33, is the superior player? He is better at all three levels offensively, espeically on the low block where he is Rod Strickland-level elite, and defends the perimeter better. The only area where Smart has the edge is defending on the block against bigs which we will miss but not enough to offset all the other positives that Jrue brings.
 

bigq

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He’s basically a better everything than Smart. I still can’t believe Brad was able to upgrade 2 key positions in the same offseason. Porzingis is a much better player than TL and Holiday is a sizeable upgrade over Smart. We lost Brogdon’s reliability off the bench but that’s something you gladly trade away.

Scary thing is thinking about what this unit could be capable of once they’ve had several months together. These guys, if they stay healthy, should take a lot of the wear and tear off of the Jay’s, which has its own value.

Is it Wednesday yet?
This is where I am at as well. The starting five is essentially an all star team. I can't wait for the season to begin.
 

lovegtm

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Jrue’s game is designed to age incredibly well, which is nice.
Players of all types, as long as they don't have degenerative conditions, have started to age really well the past decade. I worry a lot less about age 32-36 years now.