Celtics Plan, Summer 2021

Cesar Crespo

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This write up doesn't even make sense. The Celtics didn't burn through the rest of those extra firsts. The first one they got was James Young who was a mid-1st so obviously that was a miss (where most picks are missed) but then they traded the last one for Kyrie, a move that sucks now with hindsight but was perfectly reasonable. And then they got moderately unlucky with where the Sac and Mem picks landed. Jury is still out on those returns but they never had great options with either pick due to the pick location.

I don't think anyone thinks that the Celtics' core is better than the Bucks or Nets but the 76ers have their own issues with Simmons right now. End of the day, the Celtics were never going to have a big 2021 summer so you'd think that would have been acknowledged by someone who's supposedly paying attention. But the big point is that they now have flexibility for a major move, which, again, the writers aren't acknowledging. All things considered, Brad had a very good summer, IMO.
You are making "excuses' even if they are legit. Even your post suggests the Celtics burned through 4 of the 6 picks. (Young, Kyrie bust, RL, AN). Eventually, you have to use hindsight to judge GMs otherwise you can excuse every pick away by saying "well yeah, with hindsight, you take Giannis over Kelly" or "With hindsight, maybe you pass on RL."

I do think he's being a bit disingenuous by only using the "Brooklyn/Philly" picks and not all the picks during that period. He's only focused on the misses. TL is looking like at least a double, potentially a HR. PP is a decent get in the 20s. I hate Grant Williams but he's not a bad pick given his draft position. If TL is a fringe all star, RL and AN missing doesn't hurt as much. If TL is a fringe all star and one of RL and AN develop into a 25+ minute rotation player... That's a top 10 talent, a top 20 talent, a top 5 center, a rotation player and PP all drafted in a 5 year period. Hard to complain. If TL is injured goods and RL and AN both bust, the last 3 year drafts are YUCK. At times last year, it was sort of looking like that than TL emerged, AN started hitting shots and some people like what RL was doing.
 

benhogan

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This write up doesn't even make sense. The Celtics didn't burn through the rest of those extra firsts. The first one they got was James Young who was a mid-1st so obviously that was a miss (where most picks are missed) but then they traded the last one for Kyrie, a move that sucks now with hindsight but was perfectly reasonable. And then they got moderately unlucky with where the Sac and Mem picks landed. Jury is still out on those returns but they never had great options with either pick due to the pick location.

I don't think anyone thinks that the Celtics' core is better than the Bucks or Nets but the 76ers have their own issues with Simmons right now. End of the day, the Celtics were never going to have a big 2021 summer so you'd think that would have been acknowledged by someone who's supposedly paying attention. But the big point is that they now have flexibility for a major move, which, again, the writers aren't acknowledging. All things considered, Brad had a very good summer, IMO.
His initial disclaimer:

These are not “power rankings” as you have come to understand them. I am not saying the Hornets, for example, are now better than the Bucks, just because I thought Charlotte had a better offseason. The Bucks have a better team than Charlotte, so they don’t have as much to improve on as the Hornets do. (This is for those “Jake C”s or similar who invariably leave a version of the following in the comments every year: “Hornets better than the Bucks, lol.”)

Then he completely contradicts it with this:

Does anyone think that core is better than the Bucks or Nets or 76ers?

getting Schroder at $5.9MM is "fine"?
Yikes the guy was a 6th man of the year candidate and recently offered $80MM+. It's not like DS is injured or old he's heading into his prime years. For a position of need, that's a great signing, unless he is resentful about his agent giving him bad advice

If the Celtics "burned through extra firsts" on Danny's watch is his leaving really "a big swing at replacing Ainge"? especially with his questionable free agency work the last few seasons.
 

Cesar Crespo

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From an outsiders POV, I don't even really disagree with rating the C's off season a "meh."

Before the team signed Schroder, a lot of the opinions were pretty meh and we talked ourselves into somewhat punting next season for Bradley Beal.

All the C's really did this offseason was rearrange the deck furniture, but the deck furniture needed to be rearranged. You had 3 tables next to each other with no place for chairs, and a bunch of chairs scattered randomly about. Now we have 3 tables with 4 chairs around them. Unless you watch a lot of Celtics games, you probably won't understand how different it is going into the year with a dependable DS instead of a hobbled Kemba, with only 2 bigs (and one that can actually space the floor) in the top 8 instead of 3, replacing the 3rd with a desperately needed wing.

They also swapped out Semi who was completely redundant with Grant Williams and replaced him with Bruno, who at the very least as an NBA body and great measurables. All the young players should have some summer growth.

The C's were not fun to watch last year. They were just not enjoyable at all. Even while they were winning. It'd be really hard for us not to get excited by any moves. I could see this team easily finishing 44-38 or 55-27. On paper, they really aren't much better than last year's team. There is reason to believe the sum of the parts may be greater than the individual pieces.

Long winded way of saying outsiders probably aren't as stuck on roster construction as we are. This feels more like a team rather than 15 players randomly assembled together.
 

BigSoxFan

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You are making "excuses' even if they are legit. Even your post suggests the Celtics burned through 4 of the 6 picks. (Young, Kyrie bust, RL, AN). Eventually, you have to use hindsight to judge GMs otherwise you can excuse every pick away by saying "well yeah, with hindsight, you take Giannis over Kelly" or "With hindsight, maybe you pass on RL."

I do think he's being a bit disingenuous by only using the "Brooklyn/Philly" picks and not all the picks during that period. He's only focused on the misses. TL is looking like at least a double, potentially a HR. PP is a decent get in the 20s. I hate Grant Williams but he's not a bad pick given his draft position. If TL is a fringe all star, RL and AN missing doesn't hurt as much. If TL is a fringe all star and one of RL and AN develop into a 25+ minute rotation player... That's a top 10 talent, a top 20 talent, a top 5 center, a rotation player and PP all drafted in a 5 year period. Hard to complain. If TL is injured goods and RL and AN both bust, the last 3 year drafts are YUCK. At times last year, it was sort of looking like that than TL emerged, AN started hitting shots and some people like what RL was doing.
It's the framing that I take issue with. The James Young pick was never that valuable based on where they selected. Ditto for Langford and Nesmith. And the jury is still out on those 2, which he at least acknowledged. The biggest issue with this roster has absolutely nothing to do with some mid-round picks and everything to do with how Kyrie, Kemba, and Hayward played out.

To me, the most valid criticism with respect to the picks is probably holding onto them too tightly when they almost certainly could have used them to trade for some real talent upgrades. We'll likely never know what was on the table for the SAC/MEM picks though so hard to make a full determination.
 

Jimbodandy

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From an outsiders POV, I don't even really disagree with rating the C's off season a "meh."

Before the team signed Schroder, a lot of the opinions were pretty meh and we talked ourselves into somewhat punting next season for Bradley Beal.

All the C's really did this offseason was rearrange the deck furniture, but the deck furniture needed to be rearranged. You had 3 tables next to each other with no place for chairs, and a bunch of chairs scattered randomly about. Now we have 3 tables with 4 chairs around them. Unless you watch a lot of Celtics games, you probably won't understand how different it is going into the year with a dependable DS instead of a hobbled Kemba, with only 2 bigs (and one that can actually space the floor) in the top 8 instead of 3, replacing the 3rd with a desperately needed wing.

They also swapped out Semi who was completely redundant with Grant Williams and replaced him with Bruno, who at the very least as an NBA body and great measurables. All the young players should have some summer growth.

The C's were not fun to watch last year. They were just not enjoyable at all. Even while they were winning. It'd be really hard for us not to get excited by any moves. I could see this team easily finishing 44-38 or 55-27. On paper, they really aren't much better than last year's team. There is reason to believe the sum of the parts may be greater than the individual pieces.

Long winded way of saying outsiders probably aren't as stuck on roster construction as we are. This feels more like a team rather than 15 players randomly assembled together.
Fantastic post.
 

JakeRae

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His initial disclaimer:

These are not “power rankings” as you have come to understand them. I am not saying the Hornets, for example, are now better than the Bucks, just because I thought Charlotte had a better offseason. The Bucks have a better team than Charlotte, so they don’t have as much to improve on as the Hornets do. (This is for those “Jake C”s or similar who invariably leave a version of the following in the comments every year: “Hornets better than the Bucks, lol.”)

Then he completely contradicts it with this:

Does anyone think that core is better than the Bucks or Nets or 76ers?

getting Schroder at $5.9MM is "fine"?
Yikes the guy was a 6th man of the year candidate and recently offered $80MM+. It's not like DS is injured or old he's heading into his prime years. For a position of need, that's a great signing, unless he is resentful about his agent giving him bad advice

If the Celtics "burned through extra firsts" on Danny's watch is his leaving really "a big swing at replacing Ainge"? especially with his questionable free agency work the last few seasons.
The comment on prior firsts makes no sense in the context of the piece. He says he’s ranking this offseason, not prior draft success or overall team quality.

I think ranking us fairly low makes sense under the framing of “did the team get better” that he’s operating under. We didn’t really upgrade talent, although we did upgrade fit. Fournier for Schroder is lateral, Richardson for Thompson is lateral, Horford for Kemba is lateral, and then we signed good value extensions that should have no impact on our team this year.

I think we’ll be a lot better next year because of health, fit, and growth, but I can’t argue to hard against a contrary view and even that optimism isn’t because we had a great offseason. I also think Stevens mostly had opportunities to make mistakes, not improve, this offseason and he avoided those mistakes well.
 

HomeRunBaker

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The comment on prior firsts makes no sense in the context of the piece. He says he’s ranking this offseason, not prior draft success or overall team quality.

I think ranking us fairly low makes sense under the framing of “did the team get better” that he’s operating under. We didn’t really upgrade talent, although we did upgrade fit. Fournier for Schroder is lateral, Richardson for Thompson is lateral, Horford for Kemba is lateral, and then we signed good value extensions that should have no impact on our team this year.

I think we’ll be a lot better next year because of health, fit, and growth, but I can’t argue to hard against a contrary view and even that optimism isn’t because we had a great offseason. I also think Stevens mostly had opportunities to make mistakes, not improve, this offseason and he avoided those mistakes well.
The value of fit cannot be understated as well as replacing young unknowns who were asked to contribute with young veterans who have a track record of success in this league. Combine this with an anticipated improvement of health from Kemba’s spot, Smart, and Jaylen along with a fresh and improved (imo) voice…….and it is clear who simply goes through the motions in the national media.
 

BigSoxFan

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The value of fit cannot be understated as well as replacing young unknowns who were asked to contribute with young veterans who have a track record of success in this league. Combine this with an anticipated improvement of health from Kemba’s spot, Smart, and Jaylen along with a fresh and improved (imo) voice…….and it is clear who simply goes through the motions in the national media.
That is my ultimate point. If you grade this offseason like you're rating a fantasy basketball roster, you're not going to be that impressed. But when you actually add in context, something that I would expect a place like "The Athletic" to do, it hasn't been a bad offseason by any stretch, especially when you consider what the team's alternatives were. There was almost literally no objective or realistic way for the Celtics to not get a "meh" grade under this criteria. Obviously, none of this matters in the slightest but I remain pretty pleased about where we ended up based on where we started.
 

sezwho

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That is my ultimate point. If you grade this offseason like you're rating a fantasy basketball roster, you're not going to be that impressed. But when you actually add in context, something that I would expect a place like "The Athletic" to do, it hasn't been a bad offseason by any stretch, especially when you consider what the team's alternatives were. There was almost literally no objective or realistic way for the Celtics to not get a "meh" grade under this criteria. Obviously, none of this matters in the slightest but I remain pretty pleased about where we ended up based on where we started.
Right where I’m at, context is king. I will enjoy the present and the future this year in a different way (ie was Js and pray).

Everyone on the roster seemingly has a court centric reason to be there. We also have requisite near term flexibility, and I view both TL and Smart extensions positively given where the Cs should take be taking on risk, so added points.

It’s an odd axe for me to keep grinding, but even going back to the first GH year (three ‘big wings’) roster construction felt subordinate to asset hoarding (picks/players/draftees/space/flexibility) more than seemed coherent. I don’t have that concern now.
 

nighthob

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It’s an odd axe for me to keep grinding, but even going back to the first GH year (three ‘big wings’) roster construction felt subordinate to asset hoarding (picks/players/draftees/space/flexibility) more than seemed coherent. I don’t have that concern now.
This is overblown, Boston was willing to expend significant draft capital on stars, hence their trade of a lottery pick for the Demon Kyzuzu (unfortunately for them they picked the wrong star, there's an alternate universe where the Demon Kyzuzu accepted his trade to Phoenix and SGA is helping to lead Boston to the promised land). They had previously been willing to go all in on Jimmy Butler during Brown's rookie season (and thank god that Chicago kept pushing for more as Boston would have lost out on the Jay-Crew for a Butler rental).

The problem they hit was the one that Presti's about to run smack into. When you have that many picks teams offer you pennies on the dollar for them because they know you can't make them all.
 

Saints Rest

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I've gotten a bit lost in terms of options, extensions, re-signings, trades, etc. So in broad strokes, who are the tradeable pieces and at what value come Feb 1 (or whenever the trade deadline is this year? And then who and at what value are the pieces come next off-season?

Let's keep it simple and assume that the Jays are both untradeable.
  • Al -- but his contract has some language that changes his price, yes?
  • Marcus/TL/Richardson -- who is tradeable right away? Or is there some language that prevents any one of them from being traded until a certain date? Do their prices change?
  • Dunn/Schroder
  • PP/Nesmith/Romeo
I feel like part of what PBS is doing is assembling a Chinese menu for a big trade where he can say to a GM, pick one from each of the above four categories.

Then he has multiple trade exceptions to back-fill as necessary, yes?
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I've gotten a bit lost in terms of options, extensions, re-signings, trades, etc. So in broad strokes, who are the tradeable pieces and at what value come Feb 1 (or whenever the trade deadline is this year? And then who and at what value are the pieces come next off-season?

Let's keep it simple and assume that the Jays are both untradeable.
  • Al -- but his contract has some language that changes his price, yes?
  • Marcus/TL/Richardson -- who is tradeable right away? Or is there some language that prevents any one of them from being traded until a certain date? Do their prices change?
  • Dunn/Schroder
  • PP/Nesmith/Romeo
I feel like part of what PBS is doing is assembling a Chinese menu for a big trade where he can say to a GM, pick one from each of the above four categories.

Then he has multiple trade exceptions to back-fill as necessary, yes?
Smart can't be traded for six months I believe.

That's all I got.
 

Rustjive

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  • Al -- but his contract has some language that changes his price, yes?
  • Marcus/TL/Richardson -- who is tradeable right away? Or is there some language that prevents any one of them from being traded until a certain date? Do their prices change?
  • Dunn/Schroder
  • PP/Nesmith/Romeo
Then he has multiple trade exceptions to back-fill as necessary, yes?
Horford's price this year is fixed - $27m. Next year, his contract is partially guaranteed. If he's waived, he'll count on the cap for and be paid $14.5m. If he's traded before his contract is fully guaranteed he'll be worth $14.5m. He can be fully guaranteed for $26.5m.

All 3 players that just received extensions cannot be traded for 6 months, usually. The NBA trade deadline is the 10th day prior to All-Star Sunday. All-Star Sunday is February 20th - so the trade deadline is Feb. 10. You would think that that means these players can't be traded before the deadline then - but because the offseason was shortened due to the Finals ending in July, that extension no-trade period was actually shortened to 5 months. Richardson, the latest of these extensions, will be tradeable January 23rd.

Finally, the trade exceptions the Celtics have:
- $5m, from Theis (expires 2/11/22)
- $6.879m, from Kemba (expires 5/17/22)
- $1.701m, from Moses Brown (expires 7/31/22)
- $17.142m, from Fournier (expires 8/17/22)

If you trade for a player with a TPE, you cannot combine the resulting player in another trade for 2 months. You cannot combine TPEs with players or other exceptions to match a larger salary. You can however, use the TPE within a larger trade provided you don't aggregate it with something else - the example being brought up a lot now is if the Wizards want to shed the Bertans contract in a Beal deal. Even though we can't use the Fournier TPE for Beal, we can use it for Bertans, and taking Bertans would be part of the return for trading for Beal.
 

Spelunker

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Smart can't be traded for six months I believe.

That's all I got.
Isn't it the later of 3 months or December 15th?

Edit: should actually be Jan 15th for a re-sign, I believe.

Edit Edit: kept reading - you're right, for an extension to an existing contract (and not re-signing your own free agent) it is 6 months:

43701
 
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nighthob

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Finally, the trade exceptions the Celtics have:
- $5m, from Theis (expires 2/11/22)
- $6.879m, from Kemba (expires 5/17/22)
- $1.701m, from Moses Brown (expires 7/31/22)
- $17.142m, from Fournier (expires 8/17/22)
There’s also a TPE involved in the Thompson deal, which should be around $9.7 million. However I haven’t been able to figure out which exception they used to take back Dunn because the trade completed August 7th and I can’t figure out if the Hayward or Kanter TPEs still existed at that date. But even if they didn’t I can’t imagine that they wouldn’t have absorbed Dunn using the Kemba TPE and gotten themselves an extra $3 million in wiggle room.
 

benhogan

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There’s also a TPE involved in the Thompson deal, which should be around $9.7 million. However I haven’t been able to figure out which exception they used to take back Dunn because the trade completed August 7th and I can’t figure out if the Hayward or Kanter TPEs still existed at that date. But even if they didn’t I can’t imagine that they wouldn’t have absorbed Dunn using the Kemba TPE and gotten themselves an extra $3 million in wiggle room.
Yes, the Celtics have a TT $9.7 TPE instead of the Kemba TPE (used for Dunn/BF)
(8/7/22 expiry?)

from Brian Robb at masslive:

The Celtics lost out on using one of their trade exceptions by delaying the deal into the new league year which began on August 2nd, however that was certainly a calculated choice. The Enes Kanter trade exception (worth $4.7 million) expired unused last Sunday even though Kris Dunn’s salary last season ($4.7 million) could have fit into it. However, the Celtics were willing to forego that option in order to leave the door open for a bigger trade as free agency began this week. Nothing came to fruition on that front in expanding the deal, but the possibility of more potential upside was worth being patient for.

With the trade staying consistent under the original terms, the Celtics decided to take Dunn and Fernando’s contracts into a different TPE (leftover from Kemba Walker deal). Doing that allows Boston to open up a brand new sizable $9.7 million trade exception in place of Tristan Thompson’s contract. That TPE will be available for Boston all season long and into the opening days of free agency in 2022 before it expires.


https://www.masslive.com/celtics/2021/08/how-celtics-created-a-new-trade-exception-in-kris-dunn-bruno-fernando-deal.html
 
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Manzivino

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Isn't it the later of 3 months or December 15th?

Edit: should actually be Jan 15th for a re-sign, I believe.

Edit Edit: kept reading - you're right, for an extension to an existing contract (and not re-signing your own free agent) it is 6 months:

<snip>
This has come up before, according to The Athletic this was shortened to five months this year due to the shortened offseason:

The most conspicuous clue the Smart contract is pointing to a trade for a superstar is consummating the deal at summer league rather than right before the season. Because of the truncated offseason with the NBA Finals ending in July, the usual moratorium on trading players following an extension agreement has been shortened from six to five months.
 

RorschachsMask

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This team is going to have just ridiculous length. Wingspans by player

Smart- 6’9
Richardson- 6’10
Jaylen- 7’0
Tatum- 7’0 (was 6’11 when he was drafted, at least 7’0 now)
Rob- 7’6

Pritchard- The exception
Schroder- 6’8
Nesmith- 6’11
Al-7’1

This has the potential to be a very good team defensively, and will cause a bunch of steals/fast break opportunities.
 

cardiacs

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It's been a depressing week for many, so let me present something that gave me something to look forward to that you folks might appreciate too:


LFG!!!
 

Cellar-Door

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Does that preclude Kornet from getting a two-way deal?
He's been in the league too long for a 2 way. He's gonna be a camp body then sign for Maine is my guess, waiting for a team to need a big on a rest of season deal. Maybe hoping Boston makes a trade that opens up roster spots and he gets a Rest of year deal
 

JM3

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After diligent review of the highlight video & a variety of statistical metrics, I have divined that Juwan Morgan will not be an integral part of the Celtics' core going forward.
 

benhogan

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After diligent review of the highlight video & a variety of statistical metrics, I have divined that Juwan Morgan will not be an integral part of the Celtics' core going forward.
Morgan & Kornet are fine at Maine. They can slide into the deep bench roles in case of injuries or if PBS deals multiple players for a star.

plus Kornet needs the in-game minutes to continue to work on his 3pt shot
 

HomeRunBaker

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After diligent review of the highlight video & a variety of statistical metrics, I have divined that Juwan Morgan will not be an integral part of the Celtics' core going forward.
We now have Archie Miller’s top-two leading scorers from the Hoosiers ‘18-‘19 season.
 

ColonelMustard

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After diligent review of the highlight video & a variety of statistical metrics, I have divined that Juwan Morgan will not be an integral part of the Celtics' core going forward.
I hope Juwan gives Grant some competition. Juwan is terrific defensively, can switch on guards, and averaged 1 steal AND block per game in college. The Salt Lake Tribune speaks about Juwan's defense on Doncic in a playoff game and his defensive impact on the game (he ended up with 3 steals). https://www.sltrib.com/sports/jazz/2021/01/30/utah-jazz-dallas/
 

JM3

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I hope Juwan gives Grant some competition. Juwan is terrific defensively, can switch on guards, and averaged 1 steal AND block per game in college. The Salt Lake Tribune speaks about Juwan's defense on Doncic in a playoff game and his defensive impact on the game (he ended up with 3 steals). https://www.sltrib.com/sports/jazz/2021/01/30/utah-jazz-dallas/
He just seems way too physically limited for today's NBA, which I assume is why the Jazz let him walk.

While he got blocks in college, he hasn't in the NBA - he has 3 in his career in 281 minutes over 50 games.

He's a 6'7 bad-bodied 24 y/o who isn't a great shooter & only played 10+ minutes for the Jazz 3 times last year.

He's a fine camp body/17th man or whatever, & I have 0 issue with the acquisition, but if he's a rotation piece, we probably have problems.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Juwan strikes me as a worse version of Semi
Worse in every way. I lol’d by myself last night wondering how many posts there would be about how he could help us. He could help us by half our team not dying so he’s never in a regular season Celtics uniform.
 

JM3

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Worse in every way. I lol’d by myself last night wondering how many posts there would be about how he could help us. He could help us by half our team not dying so he’s never in a regular season Celtics uniform.
Eh, I regret starting this conversation with my throwaway post about how he's not a rotation guy which I thought was pretty obvious, but he's better than Semi at shooting 2 point shots & rebounding, & probably passing tbh.

But yeah, still not a useful NBA player.
 

benhogan

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Worse in every way. I lol’d by myself last night wondering how many posts there would be about how he could help us. He could help us by half our team not dying so he’s never in a regular season Celtics uniform.
a grand total of 1 positive (with an attached article to back up his thoughts) &

6 posters basically saying "not on the roster, put him on the Red Claws"

with his mass, he's a warm body in Maine
 

JM3

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a grand total of 1 positive (with an attached article to back up his thoughts) &

6 posters basically saying "not on the roster, put him on the Red Claws"

with his mass, he's a warm body in Maine
He's no Moses Brown.

RIP. Our ways have parted far too soon.
 

benhogan

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He's no Moses Brown.

RIP. Our ways have parted far too soon.
Moses or Fernando? Pretty much the same player/role. Bruno is beefier and will give us 6 harder fouls. Moses had a better contract.

I'm one of the few around here that sees Kanter (3rd string Center) as a positive. Liked the minutes he gave against Joel better than TT.

Prepared for the slow/glacial cascade
 

benhogan

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The Athletic has given the Celtics' a B for their offseason, which is higher than most. A very worthwhile subscription:

https://theathletic.com/2773612/2021/09/10/zach-harpers-celtics-offseason-report-overall-grade-roster-breakdown-goals-for-2021-22/?source=dailyemail&campaign=601983

What happened last season?
The Boston Celtics had their 2019-20 season end Sept. 27. They were right back to it in a real game Dec. 23. The quick turnaround and the chaos surrounding another COVID-19 truncated season already put the Celtics at a disadvantage for getting going early in the season. Then they started losing players due to health and safety protocols, along with injuries. They weren’t the only team to go through this, obviously, but they still got hit really hard by all of the circumstances. Jayson Tatum missed eight games. Jaylen Brown missed 14 games, including the final seven of the season, the Play-In Tournament appearance and their five games against Brooklyn in the first round. Marcus Smart missed 24 games, and Kemba Walker missed nearly 30 games.

Boston was just never healthy enough. Their young bench was rarely ready to contribute consistently, taxing their main core even more. The Celtics still had a top-10 offense, but their defense was merely middle of the road (14th). The Celtics were OK last season, but the expectation isn’t to just be OK. As they went into the offseason, the Celtics ended up with a massive shakeup both in their front office and their coaching situation. Now we go into this next season looking for whether or not the team’s identity changes much at all.
 

JM3

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Moses or Fernando? Pretty much the same player/role. Bruno is beefier and will give us 6 harder fouls. Moses had a better contract.

I'm one of the few around here that sees Kanter (3rd string Center) as a positive. Liked the minutes he gave against Joel better than TT.

Prepared for the slow/glacial cascade
Moses 5" taller, 2 years younger & better rebounder/shot blocker/player. Bruno is a better...passer?

But yeah, I was mostly referring to the 100s of posts about whether Moses Brown would be a 1st round pick this year.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
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Nov 2, 2007
12,058
Santa Monica
Moses 5" taller, 2 years younger & better rebounder/shot blocker/player. Bruno is a better...passer?

But yeah, I was mostly referring to the 100s of posts about whether Moses Brown would be a 1st round pick this year.
I also would have preferred MB, that being said:

Bruno was stuck behind Capella/Collins/Okongwu. Liked him at Maryland, where he was a 76% FT shooter & had a very effective FG%/TS% over 2 seasons there.

BF/MB came out the same year and Bruno was an early 2nd (#34) while Moses didn't get drafted. That doesn't mean much. They are 14mths apart in age. Don't really care about their height until they start rebounding with their heads.

BF 6'10" with a 7'4" wingspan, a 9'1" standing reach*
MB 7'2" with 7'3.5 wingspan and 9'3" standing reach

Getting an opportunity to put up numbers at OKC, may be the difference between the two. Someone tall needed to gather those missed shots at OKC.

Centers like Moses just don't get drafted high, would probably be a 2nd round talent...but really liked that contract. So like MB better, but maybe BF has better shooting potential?

*https://www.nba.com/hornets/dc-bruno-f
 

JM3

Member
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Dec 14, 2019
1,051
I will not continue to argue the relative merits of which 5th string center is better - you can't make me go down this rabbit hole lol.

[goes down the rabbit hole]

Moses has played 953 minutes in his career compared to 939 for Bruno. To the extent that Bruno is more buried this year where Moses got most of his minutes this year, that just means that Moses was playing against better opponents.

For their careers...

Per 100 possessions (MB/BF)...

Points 19.0/14.6
Rebounds 19.8/13.9
Blocks 2.4/1.0
FG% .540/.498

Advanced stats (MB/BF)...

PER 18.4/10.5
TS% .565/.529
TRB% 21.7/15.9
STL% 1.6/1.1
BLK% 4.5/1.8
TOV% 12.0/18.6
WS 2.6/0.7
BPM -2.9/-4.8
VORP -0.2/-0.7

This year only advanced stuff...
DARKO 0.0/-2.1
BOX DPM 0.8/-2.0
ORptr -2.3/-7.9
DRptr 0.1/-1.2

Yes...Bruno has taken 39 threes in his career to 0 for Moses, but he's only hit 5 of them (12.8%). He has never hit a shot in his career between 16 feet & the 3 point line, so it doesn't seem to be a matter of just needing to extend his range a little bit. The Hawks are so down on his outside shooting he went from 2.4 attempts from 3 per 100 possessions in his 1st year to 0.4 in his 2nd.

So there is no doubt in my mind that MB is the better 4th string center who was also on the better contract, but I'm sure PBS did what he had to do.
 

JM3

Member
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Dec 14, 2019
1,051
The case for Bruno is that he's a much more prolific passer (3 assists per 100 compared to 0.5, & 8.9% assist rate compared to 1.8%), so maybe they think he can learn to be Al-like over the next couple years with the right mentorship.

He probably has the worse career than Moses most of the time, but he's the player more likely to turn into a playoff rotation piece on a winning team, as slim as those odds may be.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
12,058
Santa Monica
yea I'm with you, I liked MB better.

September is a good time to look under the hood at the #4/5 Center.

Hernangomez also probably plays a role as a small-ball 5 for those still traumatized by Grants' play last season.
 

Jimbodandy

Well-Known Member
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
5,723
around the way
The Athletic has given the Celtics' a B for their offseason, which is higher than most. A very worthwhile subscription:

https://theathletic.com/2773612/2021/09/10/zach-harpers-celtics-offseason-report-overall-grade-roster-breakdown-goals-for-2021-22/?source=dailyemail&campaign=601983

What happened last season?
The Boston Celtics had their 2019-20 season end Sept. 27. They were right back to it in a real game Dec. 23. The quick turnaround and the chaos surrounding another COVID-19 truncated season already put the Celtics at a disadvantage for getting going early in the season. Then they started losing players due to health and safety protocols, along with injuries. They weren’t the only team to go through this, obviously, but they still got hit really hard by all of the circumstances. Jayson Tatum missed eight games. Jaylen Brown missed 14 games, including the final seven of the season, the Play-In Tournament appearance and their five games against Brooklyn in the first round. Marcus Smart missed 24 games, and Kemba Walker missed nearly 30 games.

Boston was just never healthy enough. Their young bench was rarely ready to contribute consistently, taxing their main core even more. The Celtics still had a top-10 offense, but their defense was merely middle of the road (14th). The Celtics were OK last season, but the expectation isn’t to just be OK. As they went into the offseason, the Celtics ended up with a massive shakeup both in their front office and their coaching situation. Now we go into this next season looking for whether or not the team’s identity changes much at all.
Athletic proving once again to be one of the world's best reporting entities in the world right now, sports or otherwise. They're carrying the fourth estate like Lebron dragging all of those shit Cavs teams to the finals.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
16,500
BF 6'10" with a 7'4" wingspan, a 9'1" standing reach*
MB 7'2" with 7'3.5 wingspan and 9'3" standing reach


*https://www.nba.com/hornets/dc-bruno-f
The BF wingspan was rounded up. It's 7'3.25. Still, his measurables are close to MB. He's also 5.4% body fat and is the far better athlete of the 2. That's not to say Moses is a terrible athlete, just than Bruno is a physical specimen.

If Fernando works out, he's the elusive player that can defend both the 4 and 5 that we have all wanted for year. He has the tools to be an absolute menace on defense. He's also shown to be the far more willing passer of the 2 and at times has shown plus passing recognition. He also has a very high motor, so if he fails, it won't be for lack of effort. In college, he was the much better FT shooter (76.3%, 184/241). Brown was at 35.2% (45/128). In the NBA, they've been about the same. Bruno is at .603 (44/73) and Moses at .604 (81/134). Neither have really shown the ability to stretch the floor, but Bruno has at least shown a willingness to try.

If Moses works out, he's an old school 5 who doesn't bring anything new to the table. He does have an extra year of control and an old school 5 still has use in the NBA but they easily replaceable. He has also shown more to date than Fernando. I'm not sure anyone here actually compared him to a 1st round pick, maybe people said he'd be like our 1st round pick this year since we lacked one. I doubt he'd even be drafted in the 2nd round this year. it's not like he's in high demand, being on his 4th team in 3 years. I was interested in him because he's young, long, has a decent contract and had some insane offensive rebounding numbers (which I think is one of the most valuable skills in the 3 ball NBA).

Honestly, I'm not sure who I would prefer but I'd probably end up taking Fernando. If Fernando has even a 5% chance of becoming that defensive menace who can defend 4 and 5's, it's too much to pass up. Even if Brown was 90% likely to reach is best possible outcome. Brown's value is too limited in today's NBA. It's weird because Moses is 14 months younger but I think Fernando has considerably more upside and is the far harder player to find.

They will probably both suck and be out of the NBA in a couple years.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
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Jan 15, 2004
21,790
Both players belong on a lottery team to try and put up some numbers. Bruno is pretty awful so it would be hard for me to say he’s better than Moses. Kanter is the clear 3rd center as Bruno occupies Tacko’s seat as the ghost of Red’s victory cigar in the most irrelevant way.
 

JM3

Member
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Dec 14, 2019
1,051
Yeah...BF's upside is poor man's Horford & MB's is rich man's Kanter.
 

JM3

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Dec 14, 2019
1,051
Btw, if we're so bored that this is considered a reasonable conversation topic, is it time for a 3-5 year SOSH NBA dynasty draft?
 

TripleOT

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Jul 4, 2007
4,703
If Moses can get on the floor in Dallas, Luka is going to get him three or four loud alley oops a game. If Moses Brown is ever going to be a rotation player, he can’t ask for more than having Doncic setting him up.

I’ve always been partial to bigs who can muck up the paint. The last couple of years, the Celtics really haven’t had guys who could put some bruises on the other team. If Fernando actually sees the floor, putting his shoulder into a few people certainly wouldn’t hurt the team. If he does get on the floor, it probably means a lot of bad things happened to the players projected to be in front of him