Celtics hire Ime Udoka as HC

reggiecleveland

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I said this in the Tatum thread. But, I don't doubt the Talent, or the ability of the players similar skills to mesh, but I do doubt the toughness of Brown and Tatum. I would dare to use the dreaded S word about both of these guys.

There are plenty of guys who train harder than anyone, are dedicated, yet are not tough competitors. At the very top toughness, mental strength matters. It is a skill like anything else. Now when we discuss a yet to be realized the potential of a prospect I often read "trust your eyes"

Here are problems I see with the Js

Tatum definitely cares about his point totals. If the team is rolling and he has a low total he will start to shoot. If the team is way ahead he will use the gap to take a few shots rather than the dagger possession making sure they bury the team. If he's hot he gets his number and blows it open. If not he shoots the other team back into the game, where really good team possessions could build the lead either way. Admit you often know if he hasn't shot in a while when he gets it, for sure he shooting it unless the d is incredible. If he is not getting his points he will whine to the refs, bitch at teammates, and often plays worse. He also feels all uncontested rebounds are his, and bitches at Forwards like Kanter, TT, Grant, who take boards from him. Some of the "know my role" comments TT made early last year coincided with not taking so many D boards. (He was averaging 10 reb game) I am pretty sure I saw Al laugh as he went over Tatum for a rebound, while the O was all running back, knowing it pissed Tatum off. In short he appears a selfish player.

Brown is a slasher scorer and has incredible energy bursts, but he doesn't have the feel for the game Tatum does and is feast or famine. Bad shooting too often snowballs into bad games. He will take some of least confident shots. He often seems to be hoping for the next shot to fall rather than making something happen. He has really big problems turning around a bad game.
 
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Cesar Crespo

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Can you post these analytics relative to Tatum? I'm genuinely curious to see what they reveal about his effort, especially compared with other players in the league. Do the numbers show that Tatum doesn't hustle? Do they show him to be overrated? Do you believe that Tatum is overrated? Do you believe that Jaylen Brown is overrated? I'm genuinely curious about your answers to these questions.
Brown is properly rated in the 20-40 range. Most people have Tatum in the 11-15 range which is also correct, but a lot of people are rating Jayson Tatum on the player they think he'll become rather than the player he is.

The "top 3 in 18 months" makes him overrated.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Can you post these analytics relative to Tatum? I'm genuinely curious to see what they reveal about his effort, especially compared with other players in the league. Do the numbers show that Tatum doesn't hustle? Do they show him to be overrated? Do you believe that Tatum is overrated? Do you believe that Jaylen Brown is overrated? I'm genuinely curious about your answers to these questions.
I’ve been consistent in forever about my feeling on Jaylen and Tatum has turned into a true star in the league…….that doesn’t mean that they are a good fit together. Since this is the Ime thread I’ve also been consistent in questioning whether the hell he was thinking in trying to make Smart a pure 1 which minimizes his strengths, especially defensively, while exposing his weakness, primarily offensively. It was a bonehead decision and I stand by this. I’m not surprised at all that Smart’s head isn’t all screwed up right now……frankly, I’d be surprised if it wasn’t.

As far as DARKO goes. I have no idea how DARKO functions but I do know it was created by one of the smartest and more respected analytic minds around so while I don’t ever trust any one analytic on its own I do trust DARKO to add information to ones evaluation. In this case it is showing the same as what many have seen so I’d place this in the “where there is smoke there is fire” column and something to watch moving forward.




E88F937C-D99A-4D6E-A93F-18B8D7B1F3FE.jpeg
 
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Cesar Crespo

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I think it's pretty telling not one person is willing to go to war for Ime. The best defense he's gotten is "I'll give him 20ish games."

There isn't a huge pushback like there was with BS.

Has anyone liked Ime's body of work so far? Any positives?
 

RorschachsMask

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I think it's pretty telling not one person is willing to go to war for Ime. The best defense he's gotten is "I'll give him 20ish games."

There isn't a huge pushback like there was with BS.

Has anyone liked Ime's body of work so far? Any positives?
They are 8th in the league in assist percentage, which is a huge improvement over last season.

The defensive scheme, I’m not as high on.
 

Jimbodandy

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I think it's pretty telling not one person is willing to go to war for Ime. The best defense he's gotten is "I'll give him 20ish games."

There isn't a huge pushback like there was with BS.

Has anyone liked Ime's body of work so far? Any positives?
The first two games, guys were moving the ball better. I loved that, but it's gone.

The starters are pretty connected on defense, and we don't typically see big runs by opponents when the best players are on the floor. I like how he varies coverages periodically too. But the defense falls apart when he goes to his bench, which is concerning.

I'm not ready to draw conclusions on Ime yet. It's too early. I am, however, starting to buy in that our top 2 guys need some fucking brainwashing though. The 2 way studs that almost carried this team to the finals a few years ago...those guys are awol.
 

Just a bit outside

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The only thing I like so far is the ball movement is improved.

I really dislike his rotations and it looks like he may run the team into the ground. Playing JT, JB, and MS 36+ minutes in game 5 after an OT game seems excessive. PP has his flaws but they could really use his shooting and I think there should be 15 minutes a game where he should be playing and paired with someone other than DS.
 

Gash Prex

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I think it's pretty telling not one person is willing to go to war for Ime. The best defense he's gotten is "I'll give him 20ish games."

There isn't a huge pushback like there was with BS.

Has anyone liked Ime's body of work so far? Any positives?
I will absolutely go to bat for him as he was selected by Ainge/BS and is well respected around the league by everyone. I'm not remotely concerned about Ime after 5 games, let alone 20 and it would be totally unfair given the hot mess the team was at the end of the season last year and my absolute belief that BS is an excellent head coach. The rotations will figure themselves out as there is a lot of change around this team.

Ime is going to have hard conversations to get this back on the right path.
 

bankshot1

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Its 5 games and the players are adjusting to Ime, finding out how to react/adjust to him., just as he's learning about them and who he can count on. I assume his willingness to call out player's efforts publicly means he has ripped some to their face.
 

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Interesting quote from coach after the game tonight.
View: https://twitter.com/ByJayKing/status/1453552224219639812

Ime Udoka said the contrast between Jaylen Brown on some nights vs him in certain other games is “mind boggling.”
The full quote: "I'm trying to ramp him up during the game, pump him up to get going. But the contrast of some of those previous games, especially Charlotte and the New York game and the way you see him come out tonight is kind of mind boggling."
I prefer a much more….Bellichikian approach personally and with that said
I think it's pretty telling not one person is willing to go to war for Ime. The best defense he's gotten is "I'll give him 20ish games."

There isn't a huge pushback like there was with BS.

Has anyone liked Ime's body of work so far? Any positives?
i think what he implied about Brown is extremely serious and I question in his limited time 1. How he was able to discern this to such a degree that not only was he sure he was ‘talking about it to the media sure’ and 2. I. His short time he not only was he able to figure out the above but also determine if this tact was not demotivational for Brown.

It’s only five games, time will tell. I am skeptical.
 

Deathofthebambino

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Its 5 games and the players are adjusting to Ime, finding out how to react/adjust to him., just as he's learning about them and who he can count on.

I am just having such a hard time with this train of thought (not just you Bankshot, it's been said more than a few times). The Wizards team that beat them last night got their new coach 3 weeks after the C's hired Ime. How is it they are adjusting so easily to Wes Unseld Jr. and we need to always give the C's team time to "settle into their roles" "gel together" "learn about their coach/teammates" and on and on, year in year out. The Wizards only loss through 4 games was on the road to the Nets. They also crushed a Toronto team on the road, that absolutely laid the lumber to the C's in Boston.

These guys are professionals, and yeah, they're young, but Tatum is in his 5th season, Brown in his 6th, Marcus is in his 8th. It's not like our core is a bunch of rookies that haven't played together that much. Most of the Celtics team has literally played together their entire professional life.

Sorry for the venting, I'm just so tired of the excuses we make for this team. I watch every single game religiously and have for so long, and it's just getting frustrating that we can't improve on the same shit every year. When Gordon went down 5 minutes into the season, the Celtics went 22-3 over the next 25 games. No excuses, they just went out and worked. If Jaylen went down tomorrow, I can't imagine this team goes .250 over the next 25 games.
 

bankshot1

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I am just having such a hard time with this train of thought (not just you Bankshot, it's been said more than a few times). The Wizards team that beat them last night got their new coach 3 weeks after the C's hired Ime. How is it they are adjusting so easily to Wes Unseld Jr. and we need to always give the C's team time to "settle into their roles" "gel together" "learn about their coach/teammates" and on and on, year in year out. The Wizards only loss through 4 games was on the road to the Nets. They also crushed a Toronto team on the road, that absolutely laid the lumber to the C's in Boston.

These guys are professionals, and yeah, they're young, but Tatum is in his 5th season, Brown in his 6th, Marcus is in his 8th. It's not like our core is a bunch of rookies that haven't played together that much. Most of the Celtics team has literally played together their entire professional life.

Sorry for the venting, I'm just so tired of the excuses we make for this team. I watch every single game religiously and have for so long, and it's just getting frustrating that we can't improve on the same shit every year. When Gordon went down 5 minutes into the season, the Celtics went 22-3 over the next 25 games. No excuses, they just went out and worked. If Jaylen went down tomorrow, I can't imagine this team goes .250 over the next 25 games.
Its 5 games. Its not that complicated. The players are adjusting to the coach and coach to players.

But they have underperformed and I have called them out in game threads and in the more analytical forums.

Horford, IMO has been their best player, and he's missed two of the 5 games.

I'm willing to see what happens the next 5 games before I over react and call for firing Coach U or trading Tatum.
 

Cellar-Door

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One thing I don't like about Ime so far....

A lot of people thought Brad needed to call guys out. Ime does that. What I don't like is he doesn't seem to do any of what Brad did in terms of talking about how he could do better, and I think Ime has a lot more he could do better than Brad did.

A coach can call out guys and be successful, but you have to be careful, because the guys who call out guys without also taking responsibility for their own failings are the ones whose teams quit on them hard and fast.

The team needs to play better, guys need better energy, Ime should feel free to call that out. Ime can coach better, and he should also call himself out.
Bellichick never calls guys out by name, but even if he did, when he calls out the players as a group he always also talks about how the coaches need to improve too. Guys who throw it all on the players don't last because they don't command respect, instead of the callouts being seen as a coach looking to make the team better, they get seen as a coach throwing you under the bus.
 

128

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One thing I don't like about Ime so far....

A lot of people thought Brad needed to call guys out. Ime does that. What I don't like is he doesn't seem to do any of what Brad did in terms of talking about how he could do better, and I think Ime has a lot more he could do better than Brad did.

A coach can call out guys and be successful, but you have to be careful, because the guys who call out guys without also taking responsibility for their own failings are the ones whose teams quit on them hard and fast.

The team needs to play better, guys need better energy, Ime should feel free to call that out. Ime can coach better, and he should also call himself out.
Bellichick never calls guys out by name, but even if he did, when he calls out the players as a group he always also talks about how the coaches need to improve too. Guys who throw it all on the players don't last because they don't command respect, instead of the callouts being seen as a coach looking to make the team better, they get seen as a coach throwing you under the bus.
In the full "mind-boggling" comment, Udoka absolutely said he (Ime) needs to do a better job. That's not as sexy a sound bite, though, and it was conveniently omitted in a lot of tweets and articles.

I get that Pritchard has flaws in his game, but he's maybe the only Celtic who gives total effort every time out, and he's shown he can be a lights-out shooter. Nailing him to the bench isn't wise, IMHO.
 

GB5

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Re: Jaylen: I thought it was a little heavy handed to be honest with it occuring really in the first week of the season to someone coming off Covid. I dont want to make excuses for any of the players, but when the Celts mail in a game we go nuts on this board like it it is individual only to us. In the NBA, teams mail in games all the time. If you think any of the veterans are going to lose a second of sleep over dumping a home game to washington in the first week of the season, then you are going to have trouble enjoying the NBA. The Lakers were up 26 to a terrible OKC team last night, pissed it away unemotionally, and were down three in the closing seconds. OKC messed up the inbounds pass and threw it directly to Carmelo who was wide open with plenty of time at the three point line and he proceeded to ....miss wide left and short. Airball. Lakers loose. After his airball, he walked back down the court laughing and getting high fives from his teammates. The Lakers didnt care. It is a regular season game. The inverse is Magic's first regular season game. Kareem hits a skyhook at the buzzer to win. Kareem barely had as smile. Magic ran around like he won the Final 4. Kareeem told him to calm down its a regular season game. bottom line, we are one week in. Some disturbing trends similar to last year, yes. Panic..no
 

HomeRunBaker

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The only thing I like so far is the ball movement is improved.
- Which has resulted in an OffRat of 107, down from 114 last year. I’ll keep pounding this…….ball movement isn’t always a good thing especially when you don’t have the personnel for it.

- Defense and energy has been close to horrific which is an enormous red flag for a new coach as a new voice generally ramps up these areas.

- Handling of egos doesn’t appear to be a strength right now although it could be a players issue. I’ll let this slide for now but it isn’t encouraging.

- Don’t get me started on lineups and Smart’s usage, double big lineup, etc.

- Grade is a D+ as of now and I’m being generous.
 

Just a bit outside

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- Which has resulted in an OffRat of 107, down from 114 last year. I’ll keep pounding this…….ball movement isn’t always a good thing especially when you don’t have the personnel for it.

I agree that the ball movement hasn't been extremely successful but I am willing to take some lumps so they are more diverse offensively. I think they are overpassing some at the moment but I think they need to have more motion and movement in the offense to mix things up.
 

Fishy1

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I think this team will find its defensive identity, so long as a few conditions are met. I actually think it'll end up being somewhere around a top five defensive team.

If it does happen, it will be (1) because Smart and Richardson play like they're capable of -- we need the Richardson who grabbed 120+ steals in Miami, not listless Dallas Richardson and (2) Horford/TL don't miss much time. Tatum will need to lock in, too.

I think if you watch the clip of Udoka, he's not nearly as harsh as "mind-boggling" sounds. I don't mind him trying to apply pressure in the early-going here, and he should get a chance to play around with rotations and be as tough with his guys as he needs to be.

I also think these first five games are exactly the sort of early-season wake up call this team might need. They're not stupid: they're just as frustrated, if not more. I think they'll come together and play hard.

The talent may end up being limiting, but I feel fairly confident in saying Smart is not going to shoot 25% from the field for the season, Richardson is not going to average 4.8 PPG, and this team is not going to continue to be this bad defensively.
 

benhogan

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I prefer a much more….Bellichikian approach personally and with that said

i think what he implied about Brown is extremely serious and I question in his limited time 1. How he was able to discern this to such a degree that not only was he sure he was ‘talking about it to the media sure’ and 2. I. His short time he not only was he able to figure out the above but also determine if this tact was not demotivational for Brown.

It’s only five games, time will tell. I am skeptical.
I'm not a Pats fan, what does a Bellichikian approach mean here?

I respect the heck out of BB and think he's the greatest mind in the NFL. I've always thought his approach is that every man has a job to do and if they don't they will get yanked/traded no matter of their All-Pro status. I've never thought of him as a "players" coach. Maybe I'm wrong, I don't follow him that closely anymore
 

Cesar Crespo

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I'm not a Pats fan, what does a Bellichikian approach mean here?

I respect the heck out of BB and think he's the greatest mind in the NFL. I've always thought his approach is that every man has a job to do and if they don't they will get yanked/traded no matter of their All-Pro status. I've never thought of him as a "players" coach. Maybe I'm wrong, I don't follow him that closely anymore
He's a players coach in that he doesn't mention players by name.
 

Cellar-Door

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I'm not a Pats fan, what does a Bellichikian approach mean here?

I respect the heck out of BB and think he's the greatest mind in the NFL. I've always thought his approach is that every man has a job to do and if they don't they will get yanked/traded no matter of their All-Pro status. I've never thought of him as a "players" coach. Maybe I'm wrong, I don't follow him that closely anymore
I assume he means that he never criticizes individual players in public, he might crush them in film session, but in public... "we need to play better as a team, I need to coach better, the other coaches need to improve... on to (team X)"
 

jon abbey

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In the NBA, teams mail in games all the time. If you think any of the veterans are going to lose a second of sleep over dumping a home game to washington in the first week of the season, then you are going to have trouble enjoying the NBA.
Honestly I basically agree with this and it's a main reason I usually try to ignore the first couple months of the NBA season, but since you chose to word it like this, I have to push back slightly:

View: https://twitter.com/sny_knicks/status/1453185225970888704
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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The Wizards team that beat them last night got their new coach 3 weeks after the C's hired Ime. How is it they are adjusting so easily to Wes Unseld Jr. and we need to always give the C's team time to "settle into their roles" "gel together" "learn about their coach/teammates" and on and on, year in year out. The Wizards only loss through 4 games was on the road to the Nets. They also crushed a Toronto team on the road, that absolutely laid the lumber to the C's in Boston.
The difference between the Cs and the WIZ may be as simple as WAS having a true PG and BOS not having one.
 

GB5

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Some of the things I have not like about Udoka is that again, small sample size, but is it possible he doesnt trust young players. Its a separate issue but I hated the Jason Richardson acquisition. He has been fading for a few years, and his getting minutes was going to decrease the likelihood of more minutes for Nesmith or Romeo. I thought sink or swim, one if not both of those guys needed to play. I guess it is hard to say he doesnt like young guys when Grants minutes have been elevated, but essentially, Schroeder means less(none?)of Pritchard, and Richardson and Grant, means less(none?) of Romeo and Nesmith. I dont like that equation. Grant has played well and earned his minutes. Richardson has not, but I understand the coach wants to give the first opportunity to the veteran, but I think he may be washed, as in Sam Cassel on the Celtics washed.
The other issue is that Schroeder has posted solid stats, but there is too much dribbling, and too many empty possessions that end up with him dribbling for 20 seconds, going one on one and pulling up from 14 feet. he needs the ball. If he gets them out running, great. If he is running half court sets, less great. Additionally, he is a sieve on defense. They went at him exclusively down the stretch last night and he doesnt have the strength to deal with bigger guards in the paint.
 

Bertha

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I am quickly approaching “get off my lawn”age, so to confirm that……I wish an NBA coach had the power for yank someone for loafing, without jeopardizing his job. Players league, so Ime needs to tread very carefully. I would rather see an engaged, eager, and less talented Nesmith et al get minutes than a superior talent who is mailing it in. Just do the load management thing if a star is unable to bring it that night.
 

AlNipper49

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I assume he means that he never criticizes individual players in public, he might crush them in film session, but in public... "we need to play better as a team, I need to coach better, the other coaches need to improve... on to (team X)"
Yup. Leverage the media as a coaching tool is something that is not in his vocabulary.0
 

scottyno

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- Don’t get me started on lineups and Smart’s usage, double big lineup, etc.

- Grade is a D+ as of now and I’m being generous.
Horford and Williams have been maybe the Cs 2 most consistent players so far, double bigs probably gives them the best chance to win right now given how most of the wings have played thus far.
 

ragnarok725

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I think it's pretty telling not one person is willing to go to war for Ime. The best defense he's gotten is "I'll give him 20ish games."

There isn't a huge pushback like there was with BS.

Has anyone liked Ime's body of work so far? Any positives?
I know it's a message board and people need things to talk about, but it's just way way too early for this. Opinions on new coaches form on the time horizons of seasons, not 5 game stretches. Lots and lots can happen.

Barring some disastrous season where they miss the playoffs, real judgment starts this time next year.
 

jon abbey

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Some of the things I have not like about Udoka is that again, small sample size, but is it possible he doesnt trust young players. Its a separate issue but I hated the Jason Richardson acquisition. He has been fading for a few years, and his getting minutes was going to decrease the likelihood of more minutes for Nesmith or Romeo. I thought sink or swim, one if not both of those guys needed to play. I guess it is hard to say he doesnt like young guys when Grants minutes have been elevated, but essentially, Schroeder means less(none?)of Pritchard, and Richardson and Grant, means less(none?) of Romeo and Nesmith. I dont like that equation. Grant has played well and earned his minutes. Richardson has not, but I understand the coach wants to give the first opportunity to the veteran, but I think he may be washed, as in Sam Cassel on the Celtics washed.
Do you maybe have Josh Richardson (28 and born on the same day/year as Schroder) and Jason Richardson (40 and retired) confused? This would make the Cassell statement make more sense, since he was 38 the year he was (barely) on the Celtics.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I know it's a message board and people need things to talk about, but it's just way way too early for this. Opinions on new coaches form on the time horizons of seasons, not 5 game stretches. Lots and lots can happen.

Barring some disastrous season where they miss the playoffs, real judgment starts this time next year.
No one's calling for him to be fired. The first 5 were not pretty though. Hopefully it's a learning experience and not more of the norm.

And if they miss the playoffs, there's bigger problems than Ime, assuming Tatum and Brown are healthy. Although them not being healthy would be a problem too.
 

Imbricus

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Ime good:
* Ball movement is often much better. Yeah, they're turning it over too much and better ball movement isn't translating yet to improved offensive stats, but I'd wait to pass judgment; it's a new system.
* He holds people accountable. Smart suspended, Tatum benched in game ... Jaylen being called out publicly maybe not the best optics, but if you look at Ime's full quote, it's not all that harsh.
* No one's mentioned this, but he's called a few quick timeouts when the momentum shifted in game. Remember how Brad seemingly almost never did that?

Ime bad:
* Some of the rotations are baffling, like the undersized lineup he put on the floor early against Toronto that got thoroughly beaten up.
* Is he designing good plays? Is he designing plays that mesh with the strengths of the team he has? Not seeing a lot of positive evidence of either yet.
* I think he screwed up last night when the team came out flat, uninspired, and he had two players on the bench (Pritchard, Nesmith) who would've at least been high energy and might have motivated others. Instead, combined they had 0 minutes. Struck me as really dumb to leave them on the bench, unless they did something boneheaded in practice that they were being punished for.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Judging a first time NBA head coach by their first 20 games is effectively a bias. Judging a first time NBA head coach after five games is either you hated the hire and are getting confirmation you were right (like always...why don't more people listen to you and why don't you have Brad's job?) or you need to be first on the take leaderboard.

Ime Udoka has head coached a team for 6% of its total schedule. Would you call an typical election with 6% of the vote counted? Would you be convinced that you have enough information about a medical treatment when a study has results back from 6% of the population sampled?
Based on the posts here, it seems like a lot of people would.

Udoka is learning in real time too. I am inclined to try to make it through the season before grading his performance. If you have seen enough already, I suspect it will only get worse for you. Maybe the Cs fire Udoka in a few weeks but its more likely he stays around a while.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Some of the things I have not like about Udoka is that again, small sample size, but is it possible he doesnt trust young players. Its a separate issue but I hated the Jason Richardson acquisition. He has been fading for a few years, and his getting minutes was going to decrease the likelihood of more minutes for Nesmith or Romeo. I thought sink or swim, one if not both of those guys needed to play. I guess it is hard to say he doesnt like young guys when Grants minutes have been elevated, but essentially, Schroeder means less(none?)of Pritchard, and Richardson and Grant, means less(none?) of Romeo and Nesmith. I dont like that equation. Grant has played well and earned his minutes. Richardson has not, but I understand the coach wants to give the first opportunity to the veteran, but I think he may be washed, as in Sam Cassel on the Celtics washed.
The other issue is that Schroeder has posted solid stats, but there is too much dribbling, and too many empty possessions that end up with him dribbling for 20 seconds, going one on one and pulling up from 14 feet. he needs the ball. If he gets them out running, great. If he is running half court sets, less great. Additionally, he is a sieve on defense. They went at him exclusively down the stretch last night and he doesnt have the strength to deal with bigger guards in the paint.
We tried the “see what the kids can do” last year and I thought most of the group agreed that was not a viable approach. I too have been disappointed in Richardson (Josh, at least)’s play this year so far but I think the idea of having proven legit NBA players off the bench was pretty clearly the right one.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Judging a first time NBA head coach by their first 20 games is effectively a bias. Judging a first time NBA head coach after five games is either you hated the hire and are getting confirmation you were right (like always...why don't more people listen to you and why don't you have Brad's job?) or you need to be first on the take leaderboard.

Ime Udoka has head coached a team for 6% of its total schedule. Would you call an typical election with 6% of the vote counted? Would you be convinced that you have enough information about a medical treatment when a study has results back from 6% of the population sampled?
Based on the posts here, it seems like a lot of people would.

Udoka is learning in real time too. I am inclined to try to make it through the season before grading his performance. If you have seen enough already, I suspect it will only get worse for you. Maybe the Cs fire Udoka in a few weeks but its more likely he stays around a while.
What fun is not having/sharing your opinion on the team, players and coaches? What is wrong with critiquing a coach for decisions he’s made BEFORE the season even began because you felt strongly that they were incorrect? Why should someone have to wait 20 games, or whatever arbitrary number is decided, to feel a certain way about his moves during those 20(?) games?

I mean why are we here if we aren’t sharing our positions or even having positions?
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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What fun is not having/sharing your opinion on the team, players and coaches? What is wrong with critiquing a coach for decisions he’s made BEFORE the season even began because you felt strongly that they were incorrect? Why should someone have to wait 20 games, or whatever arbitrary number is decided, to feel a certain way about his moves during those 20(?) games?

I mean why are we here if we aren’t sharing our positions or even having positions?
People can discuss whatever nonsense they wish. It doesn't change the logic around the discussion.

5/82=6.1%. So with 93+% of the season left to go, people here are on the record of having seen enough to know that Udoka is a bad coach and that this team has no chemistry or something like that. My only conclusion is that the Celtics have played 6.1% of their games. Clearly we have a market.
 

Jimbodandy

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Sorry for the venting, I'm just so tired of the excuses we make for this team. I watch every single game religiously and have for so long, and it's just getting frustrating that we can't improve on the same shit every year. When Gordon went down 5 minutes into the season, the Celtics went 22-3 over the next 25 games. No excuses, they just went out and worked. If Jaylen went down tomorrow, I can't imagine this team goes .250 over the next 25 games.
Of course you have every right to vent. And most of us see that lack of urgency and identity that you do.

All I have been saying is that it's too soon to draw a ton of conclusions, not disagreeing that they're playing like ass. They're absolutely playing like ass. And I don't know why either.
 

HomeRunBaker

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People can discuss whatever nonsense they wish. It doesn't change the logic around the discussion.

5/82=6.1%. So with 93+% of the season left to go, people here are on the record of having seen enough to know that Udoka is a bad coach and that this team has no chemistry or something like that. My only conclusion is that the Celtics have played 6.1% of their games. Clearly we have a market.
You are correct in that the Celtics have played 6.1% of their games……..and we are here, on this board, discussing and opining on those 6.1% of the games. During these 6.1% of games posters, myself included, have made cases for Udoka making poor decisions and the team having chemistry issues that other teams with roster turnover this summer have not.

Honestly, I have no idea why anyone would be offended by actually discussing the Boston Celtics, on a Boston Celtics message board, during the first 6.1% of the season.
 

Cellar-Door

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People can discuss whatever nonsense they wish. It doesn't change the logic around the discussion.

5/82=6.1%. So with 93+% of the season left to go, people here are on the record of having seen enough to know that Udoka is a bad coach and that this team has no chemistry or something like that. My only conclusion is that the Celtics have played 6.1% of their games. Clearly we have a market.
I mean, has anyone said he's a bad coach?
I'm one of the people who said I wanted him, I'm also one of the people who has been critical, both are reasonable.

I wanted him because he had a lot of experience and was highly regarded, I'm criticizing him because he hasn't done a good job.

I don't need a season to know what he's doing in each game, and I think criticizing him for what he has done in the first 5 games is fine, it's not a determination on the hire or his ability... but you CAN judge both player and coach performances game to game, and I think Udoka's had been poor, does that make him a bad coach... no, it makes him a coach who has performed poorly through 5 games.

The idea that performing well only matters in some of the games is silly...all of the games matter, performing poorly in 6% of games is fine spread out across a season, but if you've played only 6% of your games but haven't performed well in any of them that is less than ideal, and should be discussed, since you now have to perform well in a higher percentage of your remaining games to reach your goals. All the games count, and people should be assessed based on all their games.
 

bankshot1

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I don't think anyone's offended, but rather amused by some drawing conclusions 5 games into the season.

Right now the

Knicks 4-1
Hornets 4-1
Bulls 4-1
Wizards 4-1

rule the East.

While The 76ers (3-2) Celts, Raptors and Nets all at 2-3 will be battling for a play-in spot.

Its going to be a long season.
 
Last edited:

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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You are correct in that the Celtics have played 6.1% of their games……..and we are here, on this board, discussing and opining on those 6.1% of the games. During these 6.1% of games posters, myself included, have made cases for Udoka making poor decisions and the team having chemistry issues that other teams with roster turnover this summer have not.

Honestly, I have no idea why anyone would be offended by actually discussing the Boston Celtics, on a Boston Celtics message board, during the first 6.1% of the season.
If I am coming off as offended I am failing. I am amused. I am simply pointing out that the baby was just born last week. The baby isn't pretty (come see the baby though) but it feels like people here are already writing the poor kid off.

My experience is that as long as there is life, there is always a chance to improve so I am giving the team time. At least 3,696 minutes actually.

To be clear, my base case is that they make the playoffs, even despite the slow start.
 

Jimbodandy

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I don't think anyone's offended, but rather amused by some drawing conclusions 5 games into the season.

Right now the

Knicks 4-1
Hornets 4-1
Bulls 4-1
Wizards 4-1

rule the East.

While The 76ers (3-2) Celts, Raptors and Nets all at 2-3 will be battling for a play-in spot.

Its going to be a long season.
Brooklyn and Phoenix are bottom 7 in point differential right now, and the Lakers are 11th worst. Combined record of 5-9. Pretty sure that those teams don't all suck.
 

HomeRunBaker

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If I am coming off as offended I am failing. I am amused. I am simply pointing out that the baby was just born last week. The baby isn't pretty (come see the baby though) but it feels like people here are already writing the poor kid off.

My experience is that as long as there is life, there is always a chance to improve so I am giving the team time. At least 3,696 minutes actually.

To be clear, my base case is that they make the playoffs, even despite the slow start.
The baby wasn’t born last week. There were public statements made about increased ball movement and motion along with Smart having greater a playmaking rule as far back as the summer. These were foolish ideas then and they are foolish now so yeah I’m questioning Udoka’s acumen right now and imo rightfully so. The baby was not born 5 games ago.

Edit: Could things improve in a bunch of these areas on our way to a 50-win season? Sure…..nobody is saying they can’t. That doesn’t discount my, or our, evaluation of him today with the information that we have up to this point.
 

lovegtm

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The 6% thing is the usual "sample size" fallacy. You don't need sample size to see that the effort is abysmal, because it's not an activity that has statistical variance (although it does vary for other reasons). Intensity/effort, unfortunately, is exactly what Ime was brought in to fix, so it's fair to be concerned.

Will they turn it around? Probably to some degree, because NBA teams generally don't play low-urgency/low-energy all the time, and the Celtics have decent talent. But I don't know how you can look at the intensity level so far and not be worried.
 

BigSoxFan

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The 6% thing is the usual "sample size" fallacy. You don't need sample size to see that the effort is abysmal, because it's not an activity that has statistical variance (although it does vary for other reasons). Intensity/effort, unfortunately, is exactly what Ime was brought in to fix, so it's fair to be concerned.

Will they turn it around? Probably to some degree, because NBA teams generally don't play low-urgency/low-energy all the time, and the Celtics have decent talent. But I don't know how you can look at the intensity level so far and not be worried.
This is pretty much where I am. I have disagreed with some of Ime's rotations but I'll allow that he's in the tinkering phase so you have to discount some of this. My larger concern is that he was basically brought in for one reason and one reason only - to get Tatum/Brown to play focused, team-oriented basketball. When they do, we generally win. When they don't, we generally lose. It's an oversimplification but it's pretty much the reality we're dealing with. Everything else (Smart, TL, playing the young'ns) is almost immaterial. We need a coach who'll get the Jay's bought in and engaged. So often, they look disengaged, which is the most worrying part.

I don't think anyone is really drawing any firm conclusions but people are, in my mind, rightfully showing concern about the direction given that we went through an entire year of this last year. We'll know a lot more in a couple months, which will conveniently be when PBS has more flexibility to make moves.

If things stay bad, he has to consider a major shakeup that involves Smart, Jaylen, etc. The other thing is that if Jaylen's knee remains problematic, then none of this really matters anyways because that'll be game, set, match on the season. We cannot afford any issues there and I'm already very concerned by it.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Brad did a radio interview:
View: https://twitter.com/KeithSmithNBA/status/1454073153618055177?s=20


Brad Stevens to @Toucherandrich on Ime Udoka's comments about Boston's effort level: "It's the very beginning of the season. We would easily be 1-4 or 4-1. We don't have so much talent that we can't play. We have to be way more dialed in possession to possession than we've been."

More from Stevens: "I kind of get a kick about everyone analyzing the shootaround thing...I've had the best shootarounds, and we got our butts kicks. I've also had bad shootarounds, and we regrouped and won."

Stevens: "I was there. Ime did a good job. He called it out as soon as he saw it. I'm not going to overreact five games into the season. But there is a problem if we don't start playing possession to possession."

Stevens said he never talked with Udoka about calling the team out publicly. Stevens said "You are who you are as a coach. That's who Ime is." Stevens also said that Udoka is finding his way. Stevens also talked about how big of an adjustment it is to learn to deal with media.

Stevens on Udoka: "I don't think it's ever wrong to have an authentic approach. And Ime is authentic."

Stevens said the Celtics have a lot of things to clean up, both with effort and with techniques. He listed a long string of things Boston has to be better at.

Brad Stevens on Marcus Smart: "I've told him this: I think when guys are struggling, you need to get back to the best version of yourself. For him, it's diving on the floor...not being afraid to step in during a big moment." Stevens called out some big plays Smart's made so far.

Stevens: "I tell (Marcus Smart) to focus on the things that make him special. Don't worry about the noise. Don't worry about shooting percentages. Just do what you do best out there."
 

Eddie Jurak

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Ime Udoka media availability:
View: https://twitter.com/KeithSmithNBA/status/1454115418331881477?s=20

Ime Udoka said that calling his comments on the team critical is a "a bit of a stretch. I was just being honest." Udoka said the team had a long film session, with good dialogue about mistakes. Then that carried over to a good practice today.

Ime Udoka on the Celtics response to his recent comments on their effort level: "They've been great." Udoka said he had conversations with both Jaylen Brown and Jayson Tatum about not getting frustrated and trying to do it themselves, especially when they aren't getting calls.

Ime Udoka said the Celtics have noticed that the switching defense they are playing has caused some issues with rebounding. He's challenging the team to work on gang-rebounding vs letting one guy do all the work.

Ime Udoka gave examples of what happened at shootaround on Wednesday and carried into that game: "One is we talked about not letting Montrezl Harrell get to his right hand. Then we did it over and over again. Also, we talked about help defense, and too often we're just watching."
 

Auger34

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I said this in the Tatum thread. But, I don't doubt the Talent, or the ability of the players similar skills to mesh, but I do doubt the toughness of Brown and Tatum. I would dare to use the dreaded S word about both of these guys.

There are plenty of guys who train harder than anyone, are dedicated, yet are not tough competitors. At the very top toughness, mental strength matters. It is a skill like anything else. Now when we discuss a yet to be realized the potential of a prospect I often read "trust your eyes"

Here are problems I see with the Js

Tatum definitely cares about his point totals. If the team is rolling and he has a low total he will start to shoot. If the team is way ahead he will use the gap to take a few shots rather than the dagger possession making sure they bury the team. If he's hot he gets his number and blows it open. If not he shoots the other team back into the game, where really good team possessions could build the lead either way. Admit you often know if he hasn't shot in a while when he gets it, for sure he shooting it unless the d is incredible. If he is not getting his points he will whine to the refs, bitch at teammates, and often plays worse. He also feels all uncontested rebounds are his, and bitches at Forwards like Kanter, TT, Grant, who take boards from him. Some of the "know my role" comments TT made early last year coincided with not taking so many D boards. (He was averaging 10 reb game) I am pretty sure I saw Al laugh as he went over Tatum for a rebound, while the O was all running back, knowing it pissed Tatum off. In short he appears a selfish player.

Brown is a slasher scorer and has incredible energy bursts, but he doesn't have the feel for the game Tatum does and is feast or famine. Bad shooting too often snowballs into bad games. He will take some of least confident shots. He often seems to be hoping for the next shot to fall rather than making something happen. He has really big problems turning around a bad game.
I haven’t seen anyone respond to this but I think this is a great post.
The only thing I will add is that I feel much more comfortable with Jaylen shooting in crunch time than Jayson yet Jayson seems to be the only option for any sort of crunch time offense ever
 

RorschachsMask

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I haven’t seen anyone respond to this but I think this is a great post.
The only thing I will add is that I feel much more comfortable with Jaylen shooting in crunch time than Jayson yet Jayson seems to be the only option for any sort of crunch time offense ever
Last year Tatum had a TS of 60% in crunch time, 51% for Jaylen. He’s a much better option late in games, but they need to be more creative than iso every time.