If the coach is correctly identifying the problem and the players are incapable of addressing it, that speaks as much to the roster as the coach in my opinion. It's a player's league though.
Celtics hire Ime Udoka as HC
- Thread starter RedOctober3829
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Is covid somehow impacting Brown, Tatum and the C's more than the rest of the league? Seems like it should all cancel out.
Or the coach shouldn't be asking players to do things they are incapable of. Or he's not capable of reaching the team. Can't lose the team if you never had it to begin with.
You put players in a position to succeed by allowing them to do what they are good at. Not Ime. Have players do things they are terrible at and hope they develop that skill while losing games and looking ugly in the process.
And he's not really developing rookies. He's trying to teach old dogs new tricks, basically.
If he wasn't capable of reaching the team or never had it to begin with, I'd again point back to Tatum, Brown, and Smart for some of that. Even if the rumors of the team wanting a new voice are false, they all had experience playing for Ime on Team USA and vouched for him after Brad stepped back.
Ultimately it's on Brad. He hired the coach and shuffled the roster. Pretty much all of us thought this team was build much better than last year. It's just as much a dysfunctional mess. Maybe the Jays aren't as easy to build around as we think they are. The team has had plenty of turnover so it's not for lack of trying.
So out of curiosity I checked to see if my feeling that Ime's version of the Celtics is TERRIBLE at ATO plays.
4th quarter and OT in competitive games (w/in 10):
CHI- 2 ATOs, 0 points
WAS- 5 ATOs, 0 points
WAS- 1 ATO, 0 points
CHA- 4 ATOs, 0 points
HOU- 0 ATOs (1 up 14, no points)
TOR- 0 ATOs
NYK- 6 ATOs, 3 PTs
So across 7 games, the Celtics have taken TO before a possession with the game within 10 points, 18 times... those set possessions have yielded 3 points.
4th quarter and OT in competitive games (w/in 10):
CHI- 2 ATOs, 0 points
WAS- 5 ATOs, 0 points
WAS- 1 ATO, 0 points
CHA- 4 ATOs, 0 points
HOU- 0 ATOs (1 up 14, no points)
TOR- 0 ATOs
NYK- 6 ATOs, 3 PTs
So across 7 games, the Celtics have taken TO before a possession with the game within 10 points, 18 times... those set possessions have yielded 3 points.
This team clearly lacks leadership and I’ve always preached that leadership coming from a player is much much more valuable than from any coach (with your Pop one-offs, etc). Look at the difference a Chris Paul made last year and what Lowry is doing in Miami this year. With all the 3-point shooting around the league the one position that is being overlooked and becoming undervalued……is the point guard position. So many spots on the floor are now interchangeable but the one constant that is still crucial in this game is that of a floor leader. Smart isn’t it. Schroder is better in this role but we know he isn’t it either. To me, this is one of Brad’s most pressing needs moving forward. We need to find out Paul or Lowry…..and fast.
Wow, that’s horrific. Someone should ask Udoka about this, I think the answer would be very telling
OK the Buck stops.....
But seriously? as you say we all agreed that Brad did a great job. Hired a great coach. Signed the right Vets considering what was available. Traded the Albatross that was Kemba.
Now the coach seems to suck, the players seem to suck and Kemba has played every game 3-5 of them "Well" with 2 stinkers.
Not sure what else Brad could have done. This is on the Js. Unfortunately I think we are gonna be looking back in 3-5-10 years and wonder wth happened and why this team sucked so bad and never did anything.
Is there a site where this is aggregated for all teams, or did you do the digging?
Who said Ime was a “great coach?” Even the supporters held back from going that far and I raised MANY questions about his approach from moving Smart to the 1 to wanting Tatum and Jaylen to move the ball and be more of a playmaker. The red flags for a train wreck were there before the players even hit the floor so let’s not ignore these Ime red flags that myself and a few others brought to attention this summer. It’s actually worse than even I thought it would be as it’s now seemingly affecting the locker room.
I just went to the PBP and CTRL+F timeout, then looked at the Celtics ones. I may be off since it was a quick look, but the general pattern was clear (I did not include non-Celtics timeouts for example, which there might have been, only plays where the Celtics called a timeout then ran a play)
It’s clear that Brown and Tatum suck at a pure ISO offense. So again, have to disagree on the ball movement aspect. The entire roster is simply unable or unwilling to pass the ball effectively.
I'm interested to see how he handles this latest kerfuffle. Will he trying bringing Smart off the bench and risk his ire? Will he take any accountability vis a vis the rough start?
There's no elite passers, but Tatum is average at his position, Al and TL are both above-average at theirs, and Smart and Schroder are both capable passers. The team is middle-of-the-pack so far this season in terms of assists, with the caveat that they've played a lot of overtime.
The issue seems to be that they aren't running an offense enough. When Brown ran dribble hand-off with TL in the first half, he got him two easy buckets. I didn't see them attempt that play again. Tatum can hit some tough shots, but asking him to do that over and over again is predictably leading to some brutal offensive stretches.
In the first couple of games, there was a lot of good ball movement that got Tatum a bunch of open shots. He just missed a ton of them. I expect the ball movement to continue to improve as this team gets its legs under it.
More two-man game will lead to more opportunities to beat their man…..whether you call that iso on a spreadsheet or not clouds the numbers. You want to get your best scorers off the dribble in situations where they can gain an angle on their defender. This is not happening for whatever reason…..the whatever reasons is in large part due to us not having a player to get the ball gl them in those favorable positions. I’d love to see how this offense would look with Lowry running it.
If it's on the Jays, he needs to trade one or both of the Jays. It's still ultimately on Brad. He decides who's on the teams. If the team doesn't do anything, it's pretty obvious why. One of the Jays didn't develop into an above average playmaker and they held on to both too long instead of trading one.
On another note, the Jays winning even one title makes it all go away. Even if it's in like 2029.
They ran the play again a couple of times later in the game but I remember once that JB didn't turn the corner hard enough and IIRC settled for a jumper. Scal commented on it.
I am surprised that they had good success hunting Vuv on the PnR and they seemed to get away from that (couldn't do it as much with Bradley in there and didn't succeed when they did try late in the game).
Yea, it's become abundantly clear that a PG that can break down the opponent to put the JAYs in a better scoring position is needed (and NO Marcus isn't that). DS can kinda be that this season, he's a bandaid. PG-ISO Tatum/Brown is fine, if it's sparsely sprinkled in throughout the game, but it's become their GO TO play. It's way too predictable/easy to stop.
Time to start treating this year what it's always been, a BRIDGE YEAR. Zero chance this team contends as presently constructed.
Ime needs to stop using October game rotations like they are the playoffs and further develop the roster/assets. OR this team will be really screwed. If Ime keeps this up it may lead to something stupid like blowing it up by dealing one of the JAYs when all that is needed is a ++ ballhandler/PG (which is what many of us wanted in the offseason). I would have added Delon Wright instead of the TPE + Bruno/Dunn that Brad decided on in the TT deal. He would have been more useful than JRich.
If I'm going to lay the blame with this year's poor start it's on Tatum and Coach IME. But I know Tatum will turn it around. I'm not sure Ime can be an NBA Head Coach. His rotations and roster handling have been questionable from the jump. His ATO/play-calling have also been questionable. But I'll give him that his voice/accountability approach was needed and why he was hired. He gets this full season but they need to make the playoffs and show progress in order to coach the Celtics next season
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Too early to think that's the case this year, but last season Covid definitely hit the Celtics far harder than anyone else in the league. The year wasn't over yet, but see the table in the article here:
https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/celtics/evan-fournier-absence-highlights-celtics-brutal-luck-covid
*edit - this link seems to cover through the end of the year:
https://public.tableau.com/views/NBACOVID-19Dashboard/NBACOVID-19?:language=en&:display_count=y&:origin=viz_share_link&:showVizHome=no
The Celtics lost 184 player days to covid protocol. Second most was the Bulls, who lost 144.
I'm reminded of nearly-toast Kenny Anderson in 01-02 helping Pierce and Walker push the team to the ECF.
I think Smart has the mentality to play PG, just not the skills. OTOH--a PG isn't going to help if half of the other players on the floor neither move the ball nor move themselves.
I can see what they are trying to do on D and at times it has been impressive, late shot clock having to shoot over Al or TL.
But. I am not sure. It seemed they were trying to get Tatum the ball in middle of the floor, and mid-post more, and focus on Brown in transition. My guess is the new strategy they planned was better in the "old NBA" way back in 20-21 when it was effed differently. I really don't know.
The lack of playing time for the young guys, I am guessing, is part of a transition to new stuff. If the veteran guys are having trouble, maybe Ime sees the young guys as F--ing it up too much to trust them.
But. I am not sure. It seemed they were trying to get Tatum the ball in middle of the floor, and mid-post more, and focus on Brown in transition. My guess is the new strategy they planned was better in the "old NBA" way back in 20-21 when it was effed differently. I really don't know.
The lack of playing time for the young guys, I am guessing, is part of a transition to new stuff. If the veteran guys are having trouble, maybe Ime sees the young guys as F--ing it up too much to trust them.
He's off to a pretty bad start so he's probably playing vets in order to win. That and our young guys aren't that good. I'm sure he'd play Desmond Bane, or at least I hope he would.
PP has played some, and hasn't done anything in that time. AN hasn't really played at all. Romeo has played when available. Grant is playing. Bruno is terrible.
Just spent 15 minutes in the car listening to EEI. The knives are out for sure for Ime and Tatum, especially. Big-time test for Ime so early in the season. Yeah, he's got to win in Orlando, but he especially needs to use this scrutiny to rally the team into a tight ball of "us against the world." If he doesn't get out ahead of this with the team in the locker room, it's going to quickly become a circular firing squad and Tatum/Brown probably look to peace out in a hurry.
Neither Tatum nor Brown seem inclined that way, so I think Ime has more rope than he might with other stars, but he can't let it just hang out there that Tatum is soft and selfish and not have his back. He's really got to lower the temperature in a big way. Winning will help with that, obviously, but if he goes tough love and lets Tatum just take the hits, it's going to get ugly regardless of W/L.
Neither Tatum nor Brown seem inclined that way, so I think Ime has more rope than he might with other stars, but he can't let it just hang out there that Tatum is soft and selfish and not have his back. He's really got to lower the temperature in a big way. Winning will help with that, obviously, but if he goes tough love and lets Tatum just take the hits, it's going to get ugly regardless of W/L.
There was one against WAS on the 27th that resulted in a basket (Keith Smith mentioned the play on twitter). Play is here: https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?GameEventID=200&GameID=0022100056&Season=2021-22&flag=1&title=Parker 1' Driving Dunk (2 PTS) (Horford 2 AST)
I thought I remembered another one (maybe against the NYK?) that resulted in a corner 3P from someone - maybe JB - with TL screening?
But yeah, ATO plays have not been a stand-out so far.
I wonder who the best teams are at this. (IOW...I wonder if anyone else is going to dig it up
Yeah that's early 2nd quarter, I only looked at late game (4th and OT)
It's pretty noisy this early in the season. You can check in later here. I'm not seeing a way to list every team on the same page or get the league averages, though.
In 4th+OT, this has the Celtics with 24 ATO possessions and 10 points. (It's 45 possessions and 33 points overall, which compared to other teams is quite poor.)
In 4th+OT, this has the Celtics with 24 ATO possessions and 10 points. (It's 45 possessions and 33 points overall, which compared to other teams is quite poor.)
This is basically where I'm at as well. Tatum will not shoot less than 30% from three, and will not be as awful as he has been this season, they will win games and make the playoffs when he gets his shit together.
We have no track record with the coach, so it's hard to say what will happen and how much that caps their upside as a team this season, though I do think that a culture of accountability is a good thing. And, if he can help develop that, it may pay long-term dividends for Tatum and Brown, etc, though it might end up costing him his job if it comes at the expense of winning, lol. I don't really care one way or the other if he calls guys out in press conferences, but if he's unable or unwilling to privately sit TL or Al down and explain to them why one of them needs to come off the bench (I'd prefer for it to be Al, but whatever) so that Schroder can start, those public statements come across as posturing and not actual leadership.
A good PG is going to lead and direct his team either by getting to his spots with his dribble or having his teammates be more active knowing that their working in getting open/in position willl result in them receiving the ball.
Nesmith saw rotation minites in two games and once again failed to earn a role on this team. He’s 0-10 shooting with 5 personal fouls in like 27 min or something. Eventually he’ll get another shot but it’s hard even for me to pin this on Ime. You have to do something to show you belong on the court.
I dont think Smart is quick enough with the ball to get to those spots often enough.
He’s not. He never has been. My mind is blown that Ime cannot recognize this is a glaring weakness in his game “at that position.”
You would play him because he offers things that this team sorely needs. He always brings energy and he has the reputation of being a good shooter. The Celtics need both of those very badly.
To add to this, there should be way more line-up variations to accentuate each players strengths. Josh Richardson and Schroeder both are more effective with the ball, it would make a lot of sense for them to anchor bench lineups. PP and Nesmith don’t need the ball at all, they should have more time with Smart, JB and Tatum. These are small easy tweaks but Ime seems intent on running this roster into the ground by the all star break
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As I said, at some point he’ll receive another opportunity but you can’t keep running him out there the way he was performing.
It does feel like this group is being run into the ground like my old '72 Dodge Dart Swinger.
Scal warned Mike in Q3 that the Celtic tank was on E when they were up 19 against the Bulls 2nd unit.
Can't keep playing Rob and Al big minutes, that's the next shoe to drop. Then our season will officially be flucked
Maybe we need one of them to go down and force Ime to play smaller which is what he should be doing anyway.
Horford is playing so much better than I ever imagined. He must be in utter shock seeing this train wreck
agreed. I am primarily a numbers guy but I recognize the reality that personalities and leadership do matter. In the NBA the star and the PG are best situated to lead and while I’m still a Tatum believer he’s not there yet on this one.
who is the vet PG you can get that will matter, though?
How about a Marcus Smart for Dejounte Murray trade? I doubt the Spurs would do it but the salaries are a pretty close match.
Spurs laugh that off. Murray is younger and better and starting to make a leap. He was a target of mine last year but that ship has sadly sailed.
I have no doubt this is correct and throwing in Langford or Nesmith along with Smart probably wouldn't move the needle either.
Nope. They have plenty of guards. It would take someone the caliber of TL being added, I think. But no idea what their valuation of him is.
Derrick white might be the more reasonable target if the Spurs are interested in Smart. Similar ages, contracts. But Smart is the superior defender, while White is the superior offensive player.
I'm starting to like some stuff from Udoka. He pulled way back on the switching, admitting it wasn't working, he went to his bench for energy early on the SEGABABA, and when those guys came out strong he stuck with them and went back to them. He saw Grant was playing poorly and stayed away from him for long stretches. His ATOs are still iffy, and he left guys in too long, but he's making adjustments. In particular changing the D from what he wanted is a tough thing for a coach to admit, and he did it.
Yup, just because your team is all 6-4 to 6-8 strong guys doesn't mean you have to switch everything. Lots of options to help and recover instead, and they executed that well.
I think the assumption that Udoka was always and forever going to switch anything and everything except that it didn't work is dubious.
I thought there was a quote in the preseason that "switch everything" was the first defense they were going to work on and that is all we saw for a while. But we have seen other looks mixed in recently including some zone...