Celtics hire Ime Udoka as HC

Cellar-Door

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The firestorm that would erupt after the missed Toronto away game would be a sight to behold.
Even before that it would come up, there are a bunch of protocols that are different for unvaccinated player still. As soon as guys were in the building every day people would be able to tell.
 

reggiecleveland

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I only watched highlights, am I wish casting. But, it seemed to me Brown and Tatum were being far more physical attacking the hoop, using their bodies to finish, rather than kicking for 3s.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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It was interesting, as mentioned on the telecast, that BOS was switching everything even with Kanter in. I am interested in seeing whether this is what they are doing on defense because it's the easiest to do during pre-season or whether Ime thinks they are good enough to just switch everything as their primary defense.
 

chilidawg

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I only watched highlights, am I wish casting. But, it seemed to me Brown and Tatum were being far more physical attacking the hoop, using their bodies to finish, rather than kicking for 3s.
True I think. Might be because RW, Smart and Juancho were the guys they had to kick it to.

Edit to add: Celtics Blog with a nice look at Tatum and "Big Boy Ball"

https://www.celticsblog.com/2021/10/5/22710359/jayson-tatum-shows-promise-in-big-boy-ball-role-jaylen-brown-boston-celtics-ime-udoka-marcus-smart
 
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HomeRunBaker

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It was great, during his introductory press conference, when he highlighted the C's poor ranking in assists.
How will be later address the increase in turnovers? This it’s one underrated aspect of iso with your best scorers. Ball movement isn’t always a good thing in a blanket.
 

lexrageorge

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How will be later address the increase in turnovers? This it’s one underrated aspect of iso with your best scorers. Ball movement isn’t always a good thing in a blanket.
But there is a balance, and the roster talent dictates the proper balance. That balance wasn't there last year, mainly because of the talent on the roster, aka, players whose name doesn't begin w/ J. I have to believe Stevens brought in the veterans he did at least in part to provide more ball movement. And Ime would be committing malpractice if he didn't emphasize more ball movement from the beginning of training camp. A small increase in turnovers is something they can live with assuming our underlying assumptions on the roster are correct.
 

HomeRunBaker

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But there is a balance, and the roster talent dictates the proper balance. That balance wasn't there last year, mainly because of the talent on the roster, aka, players whose name doesn't begin w/ J. I have to believe Stevens brought in the veterans he did at least in part to provide more ball movement. And Ime would be committing malpractice if he didn't emphasize more ball movement from the beginning of training camp. A small increase in turnovers is something they can live with assuming our underlying assumptions on the roster are correct.
I agree that your talent dictates the tempo/system. We are top-heavy with a clear 1/2 with a gap to the role players……and our 1/2 are at their best in iso to best take advantage of their matchup advantages. Would you agree or disagree with this?

I’m not saying it should be walk it up, pass to wing and iso with 4 guys standing around but once the season progresses I don’t expect to see any more ball movement to place the ball in the hands of inferior scorers than our 1/2……nor would I want to see that. The one area I see improving is off doubles with each of them having more trust in our shooters this year as opposed to last.
 
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reggiecleveland

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But there is a balance, and the roster talent dictates the proper balance. That balance wasn't there last year, mainly because of the talent on the roster, aka, players whose name doesn't begin w/ J. I have to believe Stevens brought in the veterans he did at least in part to provide more ball movement. And Ime would be committing malpractice if he didn't emphasize more ball movement from the beginning of training camp. A small increase in turnovers is something they can live with assuming our underlying assumptions on the roster are correct.
To piggyback, the iso creates the chance for ball movement, when the star gives the ball up or draws a double. Last year to use the jargon of today the Js had 'gravity' but when the ball left their hands there were inconsistent results.
 

Eddie Jurak

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I agree that your talent dictates the tempo/system. We are top-heavy with a clear 1/2 with a gap to the role players……and our 1/2 are at their best in iso to best take advantage of their matchup advantages. Would you agree or disagree with this?
Actually, last year they were frequently awful in iso.

https://www.bostonsportsjournal.com/2021/04/26/karalis-jayson-tatum-bad-isolation-basketball-needs-stop

But Tatum and Brown are not good isolation players. They sometimes make nice plays in isolation, and sometimes, especially come playoff time, they’ll be forced into that a lot more as the defenses improve. However, the numbers are pretty stark.

Tatum especially seems to fancy himself as an isolation player, but the numbers have rarely backed him up.

He is 10th in the NBA in isolation frequency this season, going one-on-one 18.5% of the time. He’s averaging .81 points per possession (PPP), which ranks him 136th. He shoots 34.1% on isolation plays, good for 154th.

Tatum is in the 38th percentile this season on isolation plays, a massive regression from last season when he was in the 75th percentile. However, last season was his only decent season in isolation plays. He went iso 15.8% of the time, which was 12th in the NBA. His 1.00 PPP was good for 50th in the league, but he was still 100th in field goal percentage (40.8%).

Brown isolates much less, which is good because he is worse at it. He isolates 6.8% of the time and averages .73 PPP this season while shooting 35.8%.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Actually, last year they were frequently awful in iso.
I think part of the reason they didn't get good results in ISO is because teams loaded up on them so they weren't just going 1 on 1. They were going 1 on more-than-1.

I thought the telling comment (not sure where I heard it - maybe during one of the SL games) was that other teams found the Cs super easy to prepare for. It's along the same lines of the criticism that JT didn't make his teammates better.
 

RorschachsMask

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Tatum was the most double teamed front court player in the league last season, tough to go ISO against that. He was an ISO monster in the short Nets series, though obviously a super SSS. Was in the 95th percentile in postseason isolation scoring (39% of his shots were iso in that series!), he had leveled up by that point though. Jaylen didn’t deal with doubles much, but the spacing was crap, especially when he was out there without Tatum.

Something from last night that I liked was they seemed to have plays drawn up for when the defense collapsed on Tatum, and Jaylen actually relocated on a couple of occasions, which just wasn’t part of his game in the past. Looks like Ime likes using Tatum in the post more, which makes sense with as strong as he’s become. Last season, JT was in the 92nd percentile in rim gravity, 96th in midrange gravity, and 98th in three point gravity. When you’re an elite gravity guy like he is, it should open up a ton offensively. Hopefully Ime and the staff can take advantage of that. Also hope they can find a way to create offense when Tatum sits, their offensive rating dropped 8.9 points when he was on the bench.

The play at 1:32 was a good example of what they can do with Tatum in the post, and Jaylen uses Tatum’s gravity to relocate and get a wide open three. They ran this multiple times in the 3rd, led to a few wide open looks. Even if the defense takes away the closest guy to Tatum, somebody is going to be open.

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dxgfzv5mTlg
 
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Cesar Crespo

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Yeah, so I love Jayson Tatum but those pictures from earlier were definitely flattering.

Considerably bigger than his rookie year though.
 

RorschachsMask

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Yeah, so I love Jayson Tatum but those pictures from earlier were definitely flattering.

Considerably bigger than his rookie year though.
For sure lol. I just posted them because I thought they looked cool, but he’s definitely gotten a lot bigger the last year and a half or so.
 

Eddie Jurak

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I think part of the reason they didn't get good results in ISO is because teams loaded up on them so they weren't just going 1 on 1. They were going 1 on more-than-1.

I thought the telling comment (not sure where I heard it - maybe during one of the SL games) was that other teams found the Cs super easy to prepare for. It's along the same lines of the criticism that JT didn't make his teammates better.
People seem to think I'm unaware of the bolded. I'm well aware. But if they build their offense around Tatum isos, as last year, he's going to get doubled. Tatum taking advantage of a mismatch, whether by iso or anything else = good. Tatum isoing against bad matchups and double teams, as happened a lot last year = bad.
 

lexrageorge

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Last season's version of ISO play seemed to be to let Tatum bring the ball up so he can get double-teamed just inside the half-court line. All the while his teammates would stand around, periodically coming out about 8 feet outside the 3 point line to receive a pass from Tatum and then hand it back to him with even less time on the clock and no closer to the basket. That would explain why Tatum's ISO numbers looked really bad last year; only LeBron's would look any good in that situation.
 

Eddie Jurak

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View: https://twitter.com/RedsArmy_John/status/1445795204385148931?s=20

John Karalis: Udoka says 12 guys are in competition for the regular rotation, but 9 or 10 is the more manageable rotation

Obviously in the rotation (8):
  • Jaylen Brown
  • Al Horford
  • Payton Pritchard
  • Josh Richardson
  • Dennis Schroder
  • Marcus Smart
  • Jayson Tatum
  • Rob Williams
Competing for a spot in the rotation (4 for 1 or 2 slots):
  • Juancho Hernangomez
  • Enes Kanter
  • Aaron Nesmith
  • Grant Williams
Not in the rotation:
  • Bruno Fernando
  • Sam Hauser (2 way)
  • Romeo Langford
  • Jabari Parker
Camp deals:
  • Theo Pinson
  • Garrison Matthews
  • Ryan Arcidiacono
Sorry, Romeo. Maybe one rotation slot to either Juancho or Kanter and the other to Grant or Aaron.
 

lexrageorge

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I kind of look at as Pritchard, Nesmith, Romeo, and Grant are competing for 2 rotation slots, with Pritchard having the inside track for one of them. However, there will again be a lot of maintenance days and assorted injuries and travel days to work through, so there will still be ample opportunities for those on the outside of the initial rotation to earn minutes if they work at it.
 

NomarsFool

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After so many years of seeing CBS walk the sidelines, it was still a little surprising to see someone else there in the game.
 

jimv

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Coach Ime is doing things a bit differently than CBS. I didn't watch last night (last preseason game - bigger fish to fry right now) but combined with the Marcus suspension and the way they clearly announced it as such rather than quietly sitting him out it seems like there's been a conscious decision

Marcus suspended 1 game for missing flight - link

GW yanked for whining to the ref and failing to get back on D - link. Of course Tatum got a T for complaining to the ref and was not yanked. Pretty easy to pull an end of the bencher, not so easy to pull your franchise player.

Obvs this is a fine line. In the early Bird era Bill Fitch was famous for ripping other players when he wanted to make a point to #33, it worked at the time (until it didn't and Fitch was sent packing), will it work now?
 

lovegtm

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GW yanked for whining to the ref and failing to get back on D - link. Of course Tatum got a T for complaining to the ref and was not yanked. Pretty easy to pull an end of the bencher, not so easy to pull your franchise player.
Meh, they didn't pull Schroeder after the dumb trip (iirc). I think it was more a couple things adding up in Grant's case, including not making the effort to defend without fouling on fast breaks, combined with the whining.

The Celtics are probably fine if Tatum picks up a T every so often, since working the refs is an important piece he needs in his game.
 

jimv

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.... I think it was more a couple things adding up in Grant's case, including not making the effort to defend without fouling on fast breaks, combined with the whining....
This was pointed out in the article, can't comment on the Schroeder, didn't see the game. Agreed on Tatum working the refs, I think he needs to pick his spots though, complain every time and it gets tuned out
 

Eddie Jurak

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Schroder’s play was a reaction to having his foot stepped on. Tatum’s complained enough to get a T, but he didn’t let his man dunk on the other end.

GW got benched not for tapping at the refs, but for letting his man go down and dunk.
 

Cesar Crespo

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We wanted Brad to yell at the refs more. Imagine if Ime did actually tell the players to yell at the refs less? This board would go nuts.
 

JCizzle

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We wanted Brad to yell at the refs more. Imagine if Ime did actually tell the players to yell at the refs less? This board would go nuts.
I do think there’s value in coaches like Nurse working the refs and I want my coach to protect his players, but I’ll leave it at that since it’s impossible to quantify.
 

benhogan

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Meh, they didn't pull Schroeder after the dumb trip (iirc). I think it was more a couple things adding up in Grant's case, including not making the effort to defend without fouling on fast breaks, combined with the whining.

The Celtics are probably fine if Tatum picks up a T every so often, since working the refs is an important piece he needs in his game.
The biggest thing holding back Grant/Nesmith is their defensive footwork and their proclivity for fouling. Refs are acutely aware of their grabbling on cuts. Romeo is a much more capable defender than those 2. If RL can shoot 3s at an NBA avg level, Ime will choose him as his 9th rotational player over GW/AN.
 

Imbricus

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Coach Ime is doing things a bit differently than CBS.
You missed his in-game comments, during one of those broadcaster-coach chats, when he said he wanted Tatum to become more of a "playmaker." This will be interesting to watch. Last night Tatum was still driving into/trying to maneuver around walls of defenders too often. But, on the plus side, toward the end of the game he did whip the ball out of traffic a few times.
 

ifmanis5

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Interesting quote from coach after the game tonight.
View: https://twitter.com/ByJayKing/status/1453552224219639812

Ime Udoka said the contrast between Jaylen Brown on some nights vs him in certain other games is “mind boggling.”
The full quote: "I'm trying to ramp him up during the game, pump him up to get going. But the contrast of some of those previous games, especially Charlotte and the New York game and the way you see him come out tonight is kind of mind boggling."
 

luckiestman

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Well, we all see it. Not sure if this is going to get him going or get him going out of town, though
 

Cesar Crespo

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Well, we all see it. Not sure if this is going to get him going or get him going out of town, though
And it's not just Brown. It's also 5 games so I'm not sure I'd be making public statements about anyone, especially as a new coach but I'm not Ime.

The 5 games works with any quick judgments too but this is a message board.
 

Sprowl

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Underperformance of a team relative to the talent level of the players will always come back to the coach.
 

Jimbodandy

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Brown just had covid. Inconsistency in the first five games is a weird thing to publicly criticize imo. I'd be susprised if he weren't a little off.
 

GB5

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Going to be interesting to see how Jaylen handles this. He has never been publicly criticized before. Hope he uses it as motivation. Woukdnt absolutely stun me if he disappears for a while with his knee injury a la Kahwais last year in San Antonio.
 

Fishy1

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Hopefully he takes it seriously. He was awful last night, and the inconsistency isn't new.

Also, if you watch the clip in context it doesn't sound as bad: he acknowledged that he was out for ten days and that his knee was banged up and that it was on Ime to help him get going.
 
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While I'm not in total agreement with 'tweaking' a player thru the media --- I can't say it wasn't warranted.

I watched that game last night - from front to back...

The inconsistency of Brown and Tatum (I might add) --- individually and as a tandem --- is a problem if this franchise believes they are the foundation to build a championship team on.

I've had it with "they're young....they'll get so much better....tremendous upside"....

Truth?

They are both overrated and their inconsistent performance is a complete tease --- to the fandom and a head coach trying to figure out a winning path.
 

Light-Tower-Power

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While I'm not in total agreement with 'tweaking' a player thru the media --- I can't say it wasn't warranted.

I watched that game last night - from front to back...

The inconsistency of Brown and Tatum (I might add) --- individually and as a tandem --- is a problem if this franchise believes they are the foundation to build a championship team on.

I've had it with "they're young....they'll get so much better....tremendous upside"....

Truth?

They are both overrated and their inconsistent performance is a complete tease --- to the fandom and a head coach trying to figure out a winning path.
Their individual talent isn't overrated, but yeah something is up and it's the same story as last season so far. Maybe, as two guys who are best when the ball is in their hands, they just don't complement each other well on floor and they never will. Maybe there are issues going on in the locker room that we don't know about. Who knows, but Ime dragging them in the postgame after five games for not being focused and then specifically dragging Jaylen two minutes after that is.......not inspiring!
 

BringBackMo

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While I'm not in total agreement with 'tweaking' a player thru the media --- I can't say it wasn't warranted.

I watched that game last night - from front to back...

The inconsistency of Brown and Tatum (I might add) --- individually and as a tandem --- is a problem if this franchise believes they are the foundation to build a championship team on.

I've had it with "they're young....they'll get so much better....tremendous upside"....

Truth?

They are both overrated and their inconsistent performance is a complete tease --- to the fandom and a head coach trying to figure out a winning path.
They’re two outstanding players and we are very lucky to have both of them. They have each busted their asses to maximize their incredible natural gifts and make massive improvements every year that they’ve been in the league. One of them has a very frustrating tendency to disappear for stretches, which in this case may or may not be related to Covid. The other one is a monster who plays his ass off every single night. Not sure what more you could possibly ask of Tatum at this point. Please tell us what your definition of success for him right now is. What kind of production would you like to see from him on a nightly basis?
 

lexrageorge

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There's probably at least 5 or 6 teams that would become favorites to reach the Finals if Tatum were to be parachuted into them. The problem is that one of those teams is not this current Celtics roster. There is an underlying assumption in assessing the current state of the Celtics of the need for another star to complement either Tatum or Tatum/Brown. If that star never arrives, then, yes, the Celtics will continue to disappoint. But that will not necessarily be Tatum's fault. People thought Paul Pierce was overrated until KG came to town.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Their individual talent isn't overrated, but yeah something is up and it's the same story as last season so far. Maybe, as two guys who are best when the ball is in their hands, they just don't complement each other well on floor and they never will. Maybe there are issues going on in the locker room that we don't know about. Who knows, but Ime dragging them in the postgame after five games for not being focused and then specifically dragging Jaylen two minutes after that is.......not inspiring!
I keep coming back to something Hayward apparently told Stevens on his way out (from this Jared Weiss article): "This came in the wake of Gordon Hayward’s departure, after which sources said Hayward told Stevens he needed to establish a stronger voice with players if they were going to win." (Note that the article says that Stevens was tougher on Kemba after the article but I can't believe that Hayward was referring to Kemba).

Stevens described Ime as "warm but demanding." Already Ime has suspended Smart, benched JT for arguing at the refs, and now pointed out JB's inconsistency. I guess that's the demanding part. I'm sure the warm part is something we'll never know but hopefully Ime is able to push the correct buttons.

Because it's tough to watch, particularly on the defensive end - Dinwiddie getting wherever he wants; KCP lighting up everyone who is trying to guard him; Harrell getting every rebound (etc.). Even with their struggles on the offensive end, it's the defensive end that really concerns me - particularly JB and JT who can be shutdown defenders but for whatever reason seem to have regressed on that side.

Last year was super tough to watch but this year isn't much better so far.
 

128

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The other one is a monster who plays his ass off every single night.
Tatum plays his ass off every night? He's marvelously talented, but when he's stopping in the backcourt to complain to officials instead of hustling back on defense, he's not playing his ass off.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Tatum plays his ass off every night? He's marvelously talented, but when he's stopping in the backcourt to complain to officials instead of hustling back on defense, he's not playing his ass off.
Yeah, I was honestly unsure which player he was referring to at first as we’ve been citing (questioning?) Tatum’s energy/effort, particularly defensively which is where the “plays his ass off every single night” clearly hasn’t been evident since his Covid.

Thanks to @bowiac we have a tool in DARKO that verifies what some have “seen with the eye test” and this is important. Eyes alone and analytics alone can fool anyone but when you have corroborating evidence from both…..that’s when we are truly on to something.
 

Auger34

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Tatum plays his ass off every night? He's marvelously talented, but when he's stopping in the backcourt to complain to officials instead of hustling back on defense, he's not playing his ass off.
Yeah, in addition to what you said, he also has a tendency to start games with pretty low energy levels and ramp it up as the game goes on….that’s the main reason I was surprised at Ime calling out Jaylen for that and not mentioning Jayson there
 

Jimbodandy

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I keep coming back to something Hayward apparently told Stevens on his way out (from this Jared Weiss article): "This came in the wake of Gordon Hayward’s departure, after which sources said Hayward told Stevens he needed to establish a stronger voice with players if they were going to win." (Note that the article says that Stevens was tougher on Kemba after the article but I can't believe that Hayward was referring to Kemba).

Stevens described Ime as "warm but demanding." Already Ime has suspended Smart, benched JT for arguing at the refs, and now pointed out JB's inconsistency. I guess that's the demanding part. I'm sure the warm part is something we'll never know but hopefully Ime is able to push the correct buttons.

Because it's tough to watch, particularly on the defensive end - Dinwiddie getting wherever he wants; KCP lighting up everyone who is trying to guard him; Harrell getting every rebound (etc.). Even with their struggles on the offensive end, it's the defensive end that really concerns me - particularly JB and JT who can be shutdown defenders but for whatever reason seem to have regressed on that side.

Last year was super tough to watch but this year isn't much better so far.
Fwiw, this post just reminded me of a thought I had last night. Watching Trez just physically abuse people all night, I realized that we have struggled this year when the game gets physical. Especially when the refs are putting the whistles away. It's a bad sign. 2-3 years ago, it was game over when the refs let both teams play, because we would bully the opponent and stomp out their will. Now, we're the stompees. This team doesn't have an edge.

I don't want them to start picking fights with other teams, but it would be nice to see them respond when someone pushes a teammate out of bounds during a shot attempt or manhandles them. Right now, they just yell at the refs and help their teammates off the floor. If I'm an opposing coach, I'm taking advantage of that and sucking the life out of them. It's disappointing, and the boos aren't far off.
 

BringBackMo

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Thanks to @bowiac we have a tool in DARKO that verifies what some have “seen with the eye test” and this is important. Eyes alone and analytics alone can fool anyone but when you have corroborating evidence from both…..that’s when we are truly on to something.
Can you post these analytics relative to Tatum? I'm genuinely curious to see what they reveal about his effort, especially compared with other players in the league. Do the numbers show that Tatum doesn't hustle? Do they show him to be overrated? Do you believe that Tatum is overrated? Do you believe that Jaylen Brown is overrated? I'm genuinely curious about your answers to these questions.