Bradley: Deal with It.

Buzzkill Pauley

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shaggydog2000 said:
 
Do you mean better than Brock Holt the first half of this year and Jackie Bradley in August?  Not getting that guy on a two year contract, no.  But a guy better than 2nd half Brock Holt and 2014 Jackie Bradley?  Yeah, I think we can find that guy for a reasonable amount.  We actually have that dude on the roster right now, and I doubt he'd take a 5 year contract to sign. 
Who is this guy?

Because the only guys I can think of, who're already on the roster, not otherwise pencilled in as a regular, and better than 2nd half Brock Holt and 2014 Jackie Bradley, are 1st half Brock Holt and 2015 Jackie Bradley.

Is that who you mean?
 

Al Zarilla

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I swear that JBJ runs faster as a fielder than as a baserunner. On that play and in general in the field, he looks as fast as Paul Blair or Willie Wilson, anybody. On the basepaths, his arms swing out or something and it looks like it's slowing him down. No complaints, just that guys usually don't show a running speed discrepancy, fielding vs. as a baserunner. 
 
http://m.mlb.com/video/v509057183/?game_pk=415993
 

Snodgrass'Muff

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It may just be the difference between quickness and speed. Having a high top speed but taking a little longer to get up to it would be far more noticeable on the bases than in the field where we almost never get a look at the first 4 or 5 steps.

A lack of quickness might be further masked by the incredible jumps he gets because of his ability to read the ball off bat.
 

nothumb

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The discussion on construction of OF zones and the batted ball profile / factors contributing to value is really interesting to me. I think a lot of the nuances are probably unmeasurable or of such marginal value that they are offset by player comfort / meta game strategy / etc, but we’re much closer to being able to put a real value on this kind of thing now than we would have been even 5 years ago.

 

In addition to the question about relative difficulty of plays in each zone and the distribution of routine / difficult / impossible plays in each zone, another wrinkle would be differences in value of hits prevented. Do difficult or impossible plays in different zones tend to prevent more or less costly hits? Same question as well for holding people to singles, preventing guys from taking the extra base, etc. Intuitively it seems like the very hard plays in CF probably have the most value, followed by RF (due to more triples than LF and also more opportunity to prevent first-to-third chances). But maybe that’s wrong. Maybe a significant chunk of the hard-but-makeable plays in CF end up being stolen singles (this would also be impacted by the OF’s original positioning). On the infield, you might actually find that the per-play value of exceptional plays at the corners is higher, due to XBH prevention, but they have so much fewer chances that middle infield is still vastly more important. (And maybe some or all of these questions are already answered, as best as possible, in the formulas or historical data for DRS, which I don’t really know on a deep level).

 

I guess the real answer is that eventually we’ll have a Statcast-infused DRS-like measure that incorporates both difficulty and changes to run expectancy, while also adding original positioning and hopefully some situational, WPA-type weighting to the mix. At that point we can look at all kinds of interesting data, including impact of defensive positioning on play difficulty, relative value of defensive tools in run prevention, both generally and at different positions, and where/how defenders accumulate value over average.

 

This last bit is maybe the most interesting part to me… do some guys prevent runs in big chunks based on range or spectacular throws, while others suppress them consistently over time by preventing XBHs and denying the extra base? Where are the best opportunities for run prevention over the life of a season – is it possible to identify what types of situations combine hard-but-makeable plays with impact on run expectancy and then figure out which skills are most important in making them? Are there categories of plays that we tend to overrate relative to their impact on run expectation, or others that we undervalue?

 

Maybe someday we’ll learn definitively that JBJs short-area quickness and incredible jumps actually create a greater marginal improvement over Mookie at the corners than in CF, where Mookie’s top-end speed and range close some of the skill gap. And that the types of “extra” plays JBJ makes in the corners are weighted towards chances with a relatively high impact on run expectancy, and therefore outweigh the reduced chances in the corners relative to CF.

 

Probably not though. They’ll probably say “duh, play JBJ in CF, you big dummy.”  :D
 

Idabomb333

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Does ESPN keep tallies of web gems? I'd be interested to see JBJ's web gems per start, and try to compare it to other people's numbers, but I haven't found anything like this yet.
 

Snodgrass'Muff

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Idabomb333 said:
Does ESPN keep tallies of web gems? I'd be interested to see JBJ's web gems per start, and try to compare it to other people's numbers, but I haven't found anything like this yet.
 
Web gems are kind of worthless as a stat. And by kinda, I mean completely. They are more about exciting plays than great plays, and often times they involve less than stellar defenders diving to make up for poor range or making up for a poor jump or route.
 

soxhop411

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Idabomb333 said:
Does ESPN keep tallies of web gems? I'd be interested to see JBJ's web gems per start, and try to compare it to other people's numbers, but I haven't found anything like this yet.
statcast would be good for this... But the only statcast leader boards are offensive based
 

Idabomb333

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Snodgrass'Muff said:
 
Web gems are kind of worthless as a stat. And by kinda, I mean completely. They are more about exciting plays than great plays, and often times they involve less than stellar defenders diving to make up for poor range or making up for a poor jump or route.
I didn't mean I think it would have any kind of statistical value, just that I think it would be interesting. It strikes me as likely that JBJ looks even better in terms of flashy play frequency than he does in relatively credible defensive stats. His highlight reels are so much fun to watch, I expect them to be on ESPN unusually often. It also seems like he tends to have 1 particularly noteworthy catch or throw per game, which is mildly interesting in the distribution. If there are people who have more web gems than he does, I would probably enjoy looking up their highlight reels too, without any suggestion that they actually indicate defensive prowess. I fully recognize that Jeter probably had lots of web gems in his gold glove seasons when he actually played bad defense, for example, with his leaping pivot throws.
 

Reverend

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Idabomb333 said:
I didn't mean I think it would have any kind of statistical value, just that I think it would be interesting. It strikes me as likely that JBJ looks even better in terms of flashy play frequency than he does in relatively credible defensive stats. His highlight reels are so much fun to watch, I expect them to be on ESPN unusually often. It also seems like he tends to have 1 particularly noteworthy catch or throw per game, which is mildly interesting in the distribution. If there are people who have more web gems than he does, I would probably enjoy looking up their highlight reels too, without any suggestion that they actually indicate defensive prowess. I fully recognize that Jeter probably had lots of web gems in his gold glove seasons when he actually played bad defense, for example, with his leaping pivot throws.
 
The problem with looking at web gems is that the web gems chosen are based on what happened in a particular time period, not on a general basis.

So, like, maybe you make the 4th all time greatest catch (if such could be assessed), you don't make it. But if you make a pretty good catch on a day that nobody does anything special, you do. So yeah, the Jeter comp is apt--everyone with a significant career in MLB has made some plays. Heck, Manny has some of my favorite catches, yeah?
 
What is more interesting, to me anyway, is the value of catches he might make that look like no big deal only because he got a huge jump on the ball, whereas a lesser fielder might have at best tried to make a diving catch... a diving catch that might become a webgem, even? That's where the real value comes in.
 

Buzzkill Pauley

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There is no Rev said:
What is more interesting, to me anyway, is the value of catches he might make that look like no big deal only because he got a huge jump on the ball, whereas a lesser fielder might have at best tried to make a diving catch... a diving catch that might become a webgem, even? That's where the real value comes in.
In the last Baltimore series, it looked to me like the O's had game-planned caution on the basepaths on balls hit into Bradley's zone. If other teams have to run station to station to avoid getting doubled up, that's a tremendous added value to the pitchers.
 

Heating up in the bullpen

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Sort of off-topic...
Ellsbury missing Ortiz' shot to the wall last night reminded me of Ellsbury on the Red Sox - missing a lot of potential great catches at the fence. Seems like JBJ and Mookie don't miss those catches.
 

Fireball Fred

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I'd kind of expected the Sox to shop JBJ this winter, on the theory that his value is in CF and they have Betts and prospects there -- but his recent games in LF change the picture. His ability to switch among all three OF positions and run near-perfect routes is incredible; in that sense, while he may not be the best outfielder, he's clearly the best *fourth* outfielder I've ever seen. I'd keep and start him, don't get me wrong, but I'd do so taking advantage of his positional flexibility. This morning I'm thinking Betts, JBJ, and a slower slugger starting, with Castillo as the fourth.
 

esfr

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During his post-game presser last night Joe Girardi was being asked repeatedly about the inability of the Yankees to get the big hit the last few nights and the throngs of men LOB.  He finally interrupted [paraphrasing]...i'm happy with the way the guys are swinging the bats, those two guys in the outfield [dropping his head and shaking it in disgust/disbelief] cover an awful lot of ground...that's been the difference
 
Hat tip to this team for making it fun to watch baseball in late September...would have guessed that in July.
 

Lose Remerswaal

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Fireball Fred said:
I'd kind of expected the Sox to shop JBJ this winter, on the theory that his value is in CF and they have Betts and prospects there -- but his recent games in LF change the picture. His ability to switch among all three OF positions and run near-perfect routes is incredible; in that sense, while he may not be the best outfielder, he's clearly the best *fourth* outfielder I've ever seen. I'd keep and start him, don't get me wrong, but I'd do so taking advantage of his positional flexibility. This morning I'm thinking Betts, JBJ, and a slower slugger starting, with Castillo as the fourth.
 
How does he look in shoulder pads?
 

ALiveH

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JBJ's 0.650 career OPS would be fine as a starter considering the gold glove defense.  If even some of the offense we saw this year is real, he's got huge upside.  He'd be great as a 4th OFer of course as well, but compared to the abysmal pitching situation, upgrading the OF should not be super-high on the offseason shopping list.
 

Plympton91

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Seeing Castillo throw that laser beam to home plate the other night made it even more obvious that they don't need to keep Bradley in RF due to his arm being the best. And also, it made it clear that Betts long term role, if they keep the BBC together, is LF.

I'm surprised Girardi's quote only said 2. This is the best defensive outfield they've had in at least 50 years.
 

Byrdbrain

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Castillo didn't play the first couple of games and he was just talking about the hits they took away then.
I agree it should be Betts in left but this is the type of question where there really is no wrong answer, except Castillo in CF which while obviously the worst choice still would be damn good. 
 

Koufax

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JBJ's 0.650 career OPS would be fine as a starter considering the gold glove defense. If even some of the offense we saw this year is real, he's got huge upside. He'd be great as a 4th OFer of course as well, but compared to the abysmal pitching situation, upgrading the OF should not be super-high on the offseason shopping list.
Not picking on this poster, only singling this post out because it summarizes an emerging consensus from last year: If only JBJ could be a marginally decent hitter, wouldn't that be wonderful. What's striking to me this year is that he's turned into a slugger, with what, 25 HRs so far and an .850 OPS. Even if he's streaky, those are very satisfying totals. And of course there's the defense. His production this year so far exceeds the expectations that I thought it was worth resurrecting this old thread to point out the contrast between our low hopes from last year and what he's done in the batter's box this year.
 

E5 Yaz

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Hey, Jackie Bradley Jr., ever think you'd hit 26 homers? "Not surprised, but not too shabby for a defensive specialist."
 

wyatt55

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Hey, Jackie Bradley Jr., ever think you'd hit 26 homers? "Not surprised, but not too shabby for a defensive specialist."
Great quote last night. And Jackie said it with only a hint of "up yours, world". I love this kid.

While he does have 136 Ks, his OPS is .860 now. Wow.
Combined with only 3 errors in 353 chances. Leading the league in CF assists with 12. T for 4th overall for OF assists, one behind Mookie. Two way star.
 

BaseballJones

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An absolutely legitimate all star caliber player. It's really amazing.

To think.... We could have shipped him off and kept Ellsbury at more than $20 million a year through his 30s.......
 

richgedman'sghost

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An absolutely legitimate all star caliber player. It's really amazing.

To think.... We could have shipped him off and kept Ellsbury at more than $20 million a year through his 30s.......
I seem to remember Plympton 91 going crazy when the Red Sox did not resign Jacoby. Called the move foolish and ridiculous. Wonder if he would like a do over on those remarks?
 

lexrageorge

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I seem to remember Plympton 91 going crazy when the Red Sox did not resign Jacoby. Called the move foolish and ridiculous. Wonder if he would like a do over on those remarks?
Doubtful; he's moved on to being upset that the Sox let Salty walk the same offseason.
 

BaseballJones

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I seem to remember Plympton 91 going crazy when the Red Sox did not resign Jacoby. Called the move foolish and ridiculous. Wonder if he would like a do over on those remarks?
No idea. But I'm sure any of us with a long enough posting history will have some pretty bad ones like that.
 

DJnVa

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Great quote last night. And Jackie said it with only a hint of "up yours, world". I love this kid.

While he does have 136 Ks, his OPS is .860 now. Wow.
Combined with only 3 errors in 353 chances. Leading the league in CF assists with 12. T for 4th overall for OF assists, one behind Mookie. Two way star.
136 K's are essentially meaningless. Dude is a stud.
 

Plympton91

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I seem to remember Plympton 91 going crazy when the Red Sox did not resign Jacoby. Called the move foolish and ridiculous. Wonder if he would like a do over on those remarks?
Maybe the Yankees would trade Ellabury back to then Red Sox for Pablo Samdoval, Rusnay Castillo, and Allen Craig? It's too bad the Yankees traded Andrew Miller already, or they could have thrown him into the deal in order to even out the money.

it wasn't the emergence of Bradley that would have pushed Ellsbury to Boston's bench. Up until the emergence of Benintendi, they still had a gaping hole in at least 1 of the 3 outfield positions every year he's been gone.

The argument against resigning Ellsbury right now isn't that he would have been blocking anybody (there are 3 outfield positions) or that it would have been a bad contract (it might have saved them from 3 that are even worse), it's that they might have won 4 more games in 2014, and missed out on Benintendi in the 2015 draft.

But to make that argument you've got to be ok with pissing away an opportunity to repeat in 2014, and I've never been ok with that, and never will be.
 

Soxfan in Fla

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Are you kidding me? They 2014 finished in the cellar and sucked. Ellsbury wasn't going to help a flawed team repeat. Get over it.
 

Byrdbrain

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No idea. But I'm sure any of us with a long enough posting history will have some pretty bad ones like that.
Hell scroll up a few posts and you can see me talking about the best place to play Castillo.
Though I'll admit I was wrong about so there is that.
 

Plympton91

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Are you kidding me? They 2014 finished in the cellar and sucked. Ellsbury wasn't going to help a flawed team repeat. Get over it.
The 2014 team was 71-91.
Because we all know that baseball is a like a computer simulation where we toss a coin 162 time and how the first 81 go are irrelevant to how the last 81 go.

And we also know that hindsight is the best way to judge decisions. Of course.

The argument against signing Ellsbury was that not having a Major League caliber CF in 2014 was worth it to avoid the potentially bad out-years of Ellsbury's contract.

Some people were ok with that. I wasn't. And, I was proven right--they had a terrible outfields in 2014 and again in 2015. Just as I predicted.

And, if paying $200 million for less than replacement value from Castillo, Panda, and Craig (and another $10 million to Masterson) aren't keeping this team from making moves for Price and Kimbrell and adding the not minimum salaried Zeigler and Hill mid season, I doubt Ellsbury's contract, coming with at least somewhat positive on field value each year would be either.

So, it's all about your preferences. If you're the type who's ok with being eliminated at the trading deadline two years in a row, then you let Ellsbury go despite having no Plan B. If you like being competitive every year, you had to bite the bullet and accept that you might eat 3 or 4 bad years on the back end.
 
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Snodgrass'Muff

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The argument against signing Ellsbury was that not having a Major League caliber CF in 2014 was worth it to avoid the potentially bad out-years of Ellsbury's contract.

Some people were ok with that. I wasn't. And, I was proven right--they had a terrible outfields in 2014 and again in 2015. Just as I predicted.
There's an entire other side of the argument here that you are ignoring. The Sox had needs in the outfield, yes, but Ellsbury has sucked in years 2 and 3 of his contract. There is no reason to think he's going to be anywhere near worth it by the end.

So, it's all about your preferences. If you're the type who's ok with being eliminated at the trading deadline two years in a row, then you let Ellsbury go despite having no Plan B. If you like being competitive every year, you had to bite the bullet and accept that you might eat 3 or 4 bad years on the back end.
Turns out they are eating 6 bad seasons, but who's counting?
 

Plympton91

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There's an entire other side of the argument here that you are ignoring. The Sox had needs in the outfield, yes, but Ellsbury has sucked in years 2 and 3 of his contract. There is no reason to think he's going to be anywhere near worth it by the end.

Turns out they are eating 6 bad seasons, but who's counting?
Depends on your definition of "bad" I guess. Ellsbury has averaged 1.5 WAR the past two seasons (averaging due to a swing in Dwar that makes no sense), so approximate $12 million per year in value.

It's not $22 million worth, but then again, Pablo Sandoval was more valuable not playing at all in 2016 than he was in 2015. To me, that's the definition of "bad."
 

Mr Jums

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Holy God, this discussion again. I'm just going to quote a post of mine from like, two years ago because I think it accurately encapsulates P91's thinking and the my thoughts on it.

Look, I understand your thought process on this (I think).
1) You felt that going into 2014, the Red Sox did not have the outfielders to be a competitive team and were putting all their eggs in one basket by relying on JBJ and Grady Sizemore
2) You felt that the best way to fix this problem was to sign Ellsbury
3) You believe that even if the Ellsbury signing ends up being a poor one in the long-term, the fact that it keeps them competitive on a yearly basis, and avoids the "punting" of a year as you put it, is worth it.
4) Subsequent arguments that this signing is currently and will likely continue to be an albatross are met with remarks of "well, the money they've saved by not signing Ellsbury was wasted anyway on Porcello/Sandoval/fill in the blank"

On point 1, I agree with you. On point 2 and 3 I don't, because I think you shouldn't sign contracts that you feel going in, as most of us did, are going to be pretty bad contracts by the end for the sole purpose of remaining competitive on a yearly basis, as that isn't a sustainable model for building a team. And as to point 4, just because they didn't spend their money as well as they could have doesn't really mean that the solution to that was to not spend their money as well as they could have.
 

Savin Hillbilly

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The wrong side of the bridge....
Some people were ok with that. I wasn't. And, I was proven right--they had a terrible outfields in 2014 and again in 2015. Just as I predicted.
Well, you were proven right that the Sox outfield would have been better in 2014 (not 2015) if they had signed Ellsbury than if they hadn't. As grounds for signing a 30-year-old to a 7-year $20M+/yr contract, that feels a bit underwhelming.
 

DeadlySplitter

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the amazing 2013 masks that this team had to go through somewhat of a bridge / rebuilding to move on from the 2007-8 core, which began to decline in 09-10 (and we know what happened in 11...) to no, a new core that has ripened this year. Signing Ells to make 2014/15 marginally better would have been stupid. JBJ had tremendous growing pains at the major league level, but it was needed to get this year.

There's stubborness and there's Plympton, I guess.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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I'm not one to quote business models for the way to operate in almost anything. I don't think the government should operate like a business, with the "bottom line" and maximizing profit as it's chief and absolute goal... nor do I think a baseball team should do that... but in the case of extending Ellsbury in '14, from a business standpoint even, it made no sense.
Staying competitive year in and year out is a nice goal, but if your decision making in year in and year out only yields competitiveness (which is how I would qualify a team like The Dodgers or The Tigers) then you're successful in business. In a professional sporting model, your goal is to win a World Series, of course every year.... but you also need to be stinkin' smart enough to know that's not going to happen, so you need to maximize efficiency to make it possible over a certain period. I know it stinks as a fan to have a few shitty years, but sacrificing just "competitiveness" (resigning Ellsbury for an extra 2...3 wins in '14) wouldn't have helped maximizing potential for the Ultimate Goal for '16-'20... and I believe would have got in the way.
I think Ben was right there and it operates independently from his Pablo and Hanley decisions in '15, which I believe were panic moves (despite Hanley now being stinkin' awesome!!!!) and reactionary to the Long Game Plan he instituted when they punted in '14.
 

SpaceMan37

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There were other outfielders besides Ellsbury they could have signed for 2014. I argued at the time that they should have signed Chris Young or Rajai Davis.
 

Mike F

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I was also big on Young even as a platoon partner with JBJ. Unfortunately $7m per was prolly more than a platoon was worth.
 

Rovin Romine

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Well, you were proven right that the Sox outfield would have been better in 2014 (not 2015) if they had signed Ellsbury than if they hadn't. As grounds for signing a 30-year-old to a 7-year $20M+/yr contract, that feels a bit underwhelming.
Improving the sox OF in 2014 would have arguably made zero difference in the standings (unless the pointless additional wins suppressed a draft pick). It certainly wouldn't have put them within sniffing distance of the WC, or changed the 2014 trade-deadline trades.

Even so, somebody will then get him started on Lester.
I suspect Plymp views the failure-to-sign Ells as the domino that sent various binky players off elsewhere. But the 2014 team was 48-60 when they started trading off their pending FAs.