2023 Draft Fits

Shelterdog

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Feb 19, 2002
15,375
New York City
You guys know more about this stuff than I do. I guess my question is: Is the guy actually good? When facing really good competition, how does he do? If he handles NFL-caliber players really well, then that means...he probably can play that position in the NFL.

Measurables definitely have some value, but at the end of the day, it's about whether the guy can play or not. Old, tired example, but Jerry Rice just wasn't that fast in terms of his measurable 40 time. But man obviously he could PLAY. If we look at Skoronski and see that he manhandles NFL-caliber competition, then I just wouldn't worry about his arm length.

I say all this having NO idea if he actually played well against NFL caliber competition.
I'm not trying to trigger SMU_Sox but it's kind of perplexing. I think most people think he was really good at northwestern against good competition but did show "length issues" and a lot of the online community looks at him and says man that's a really good guard prospect. But by and large the draftniks have him rated as a top LT. Unclear what teams think but worth noting that it's basically impossible to find a guy with that arm length at tackle in the NFL and even people who are talked about as short arm guys like Joe Thomas and Matt LIght are 33 and change not 32.25
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
34,563
You guys know more about this stuff than I do. I guess my question is: Is the guy actually good? When facing really good competition, how does he do? If he handles NFL-caliber players really well, then that means...he probably can play that position in the NFL.

Measurables definitely have some value, but at the end of the day, it's about whether the guy can play or not. Old, tired example, but Jerry Rice just wasn't that fast in terms of his measurable 40 time. But man obviously he could PLAY. If we look at Skoronski and see that he manhandles NFL-caliber competition, then I just wouldn't worry about his arm length.

I say all this having NO idea if he actually played well against NFL caliber competition.
He played pretty well in college, but the thing about college is you play maybe a couple dozen snaps a year at most against NFL starter quality competition in 1v1, and basically never play a situation where you deal with multiple NFL starter comp (maybe if you played UGA 2 years ago) and even those guys aren't really at what an NFL vet is in terms of strength and technique.

Some people (including SMU) have mentioned that his tape shows some of the length concerns mixed in with his good technique.

Could he end up a OT and a good one... maybe? But projecting NFL success is really hard, and projecting a guy to be the first ever is even harder. So when teams look at him, many will say... do I think this guy's technique is SO good that he'll overcome a limitation nobody else ever has. Now some teams might say yes... some teams also might say "I love his technique so much I'm happy playing him at LG if he struggles in camp" the Patriots are just uniquely situated where that seems unlikely given that they just drafted a LG in the 1st, and Skoronski's fit at RG isn't great (also their RG is their best lineman).

Skoronski might be a really good gamble for some teams, it's just that the mock has him going to the Patriots that people thought was weird, given that they are one of the teams LEAST well situated to take that gamble.
 

Super Nomario

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 5, 2000
14,013
Mansfield MA
He played pretty well in college, but the thing about college is you play maybe a couple dozen snaps a year at most against NFL starter quality competition in 1v1, and basically never play a situation where you deal with multiple NFL starter comp (maybe if you played UGA 2 years ago) and even those guys aren't really at what an NFL vet is in terms of strength and technique.

Some people (including SMU) have mentioned that his tape shows some of the length concerns mixed in with his good technique.

Could he end up a OT and a good one... maybe? But projecting NFL success is really hard, and projecting a guy to be the first ever is even harder. So when teams look at him, many will say... do I think this guy's technique is SO good that he'll overcome a limitation nobody else ever has. Now some teams might say yes... some teams also might say "I love his technique so much I'm happy playing him at LG if he struggles in camp" the Patriots are just uniquely situated where that seems unlikely given that they just drafted a LG in the 1st, and Skoronski's fit at RG isn't great (also their RG is their best lineman).

Skoronski might be a really good gamble for some teams, it's just that the mock has him going to the Patriots that people thought was weird, given that they are one of the teams LEAST well situated to take that gamble.
This is exactly where I'm at. I love this kind of prospect and would 100% try him at LT if I drafted him ... but he makes a lot more sense for a team that has an opening at G to fall back on if he doesn't succeed outside. The Patriots don't.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
34,563
This is exactly where I'm at. I love this kind of prospect and would 100% try him at LT if I drafted him ... but he makes a lot more sense for a team that has an opening at G to fall back on if he doesn't succeed outside. The Patriots don't.
Yeah, I think he's a really interesting pick for TEN at 11 or NYJ at 13. Those are teams who could use both OT and OG.
 

SMU_Sox

queer eye for the next pats guy
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2009
8,920
Dallas
I love the Joe Thuneys of the world too.

Look at NWern and Ohio State. Show me this year how many top 75 caliber edge rushers they faced. Hardly any. Maybe 2 at most and those guys were heavily rotated out!

Length matters when the opponent can get to you first. The opponent can soften your edge, or get to your chest, or wristlock you before you can counter. They dictate how you meet on the edge. Let's say you can't reach them to not prevent them from taking the edge and they chop you. Well, if you have elite foot speed, which he does, you can recover that way. So that's how he wins. He resets his hands and uses his footspeed to recover. Against power rushers though it isn't that easy. They will get into you first and that is where he has trouble and where he will have trouble. Power rushers typically reach him first and dictate first contact. He then doesn't always anchor the way you want him too and he has trouble clearing his chest. If he had length he could get his hands on the power rusher first which blunts their rush. OR he gets hands on the guy before he can even try to soften the edge. Sure, you can counter attack with your recovery but relying on recovery is a dicier proposition in the NFL. Also guys know that you are going to do that so the bottom rushers will have combos to exploit where they think you will recover like, for example, and outside speed rush with a nice inside spin counter once he recovers and tries to reposition.
 

SMU_Sox

queer eye for the next pats guy
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2009
8,920
Dallas
Another thing to remember is colleges run like 40% RPOs and a high level of screens so you see a significantly smaller sample size of true pass sets.
 

SMU_Sox

queer eye for the next pats guy
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2009
8,920
Dallas
Also, @Shelterdog , the draftniks like Lance Z, Brandon Thorn, and DJ are leaning towards he is a guard//he might be an average tackle AT BEST, but his best/true position is guard.

It's the guys like Evan Lazar who are championing him (and Brugler) as being ok at OT.
 

Shelterdog

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Feb 19, 2002
15,375
New York City
Also, @Shelterdog , the draftniks like Lance Z, Brandon Thorn, and DJ are leaning towards he is a guard//he might be an average tackle AT BEST, but his best/true position is guard.

It's the guys like Evan Lazar who are championing him (and Brugler) as being ok at OT.
Was listening to DJ at the combine and I thought he said he wa a tackle, I missed that. Kiper and McShay (I know but they're promintent) have him at tackle I think. [I think you and I both think Lance Z and Thorn are better voices to listen to on oline and I'm certainly not projecting him as an anything because this is avoe my pay grade.

EDIT: Here's what DJ's draft guide last week saidin rating him the number seven overall prospect--I think this is saying he'll be a tackle and doesn't even mention guard.

Skoronski is a steady, reliable tackle prospect. He has the desired height and bulk for the position, but lacks ideal length. In the passing game, he is quick out of his stance and has the ability to kick out and cover up speed rushers on the edge. He plays with knee bend and balance to redirect and stay square versus counter moves. He gives ground initially against power rushers before resettling and anchoring down. In the run game, he plays with leverage and uses a strong inside arm to uproot and displace defenders. He is quick to the second level to wall off linebackers. His overall awareness is excellent. Skoronski isn't on the same level as his former teammate, Rashawn Slater, but he'll be very consistent and stable as a starting OT.
 

SMU_Sox

queer eye for the next pats guy
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2009
8,920
Dallas

Rudy's Curve

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 4, 2006
2,333
I watched Slater and I watched Skor. They aren’t in the same level is an understatement.

I am sad though fam. Darnell Wright… well the secret is out of the bag. There is probably no way he slides to the 2nd round. He is likely going top 32 and some analysts, like DJ, have him in the top 20 (17 overall).

View: https://twitter.com/movethesticks/status/1633610194403102720?s=46&t=kvYWuq6n2wZg-KCGv0fpWg
I could definitely see him at 28 if he's there, especially since the Bengals love big-school guys. What are your thoughts on Anton Harrison? He's another popular mock there who just turned 21 and tested reasonably well.
 

SMU_Sox

queer eye for the next pats guy
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2009
8,920
Dallas
I could definitely see him at 28 if he's there, especially since the Bengals love big-school guys. What are your thoughts on Anton Harrison? He's another popular mock there who just turned 21 and tested reasonably well.
So... Harris, Johnson, and Jones are basically 3 dudes cut from the same cloth. All of them are athletic. All of them have decent power as run blockers. All of them have a lot of work to do in pass pro. They all have their own different strengths and weaknesses. Personally my order is Paris then Jones then Harris. All 3 would be great in the OZ scheme you run.
 

Rudy's Curve

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 4, 2006
2,333
So... Harris, Johnson, and Jones are basically 3 dudes cut from the same cloth. All of them are athletic. All of them have decent power as run blockers. All of them have a lot of work to do in pass pro. They all have their own different strengths and weaknesses. Personally my order is Paris then Jones then Harris. All 3 would be great in the OZ scheme you run.
Thanks. Would Wright be a fit? They kind of scrapped the OZ stuff after Week 4 and went predominantly gap. Either way, they need to get back to drafting big, athletic linemen. A pretty common theme of their failures there the last decade is small guys who either didn't test or didn't test well.
 

SMU_Sox

queer eye for the next pats guy
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2009
8,920
Dallas
Thanks. Would Wright be a fit? They kind of scrapped the OZ stuff after Week 4 and went predominantly gap. Either way, they need to get back to drafting big, athletic linemen. A pretty common theme of their failures there the last decade is small guys who either didn't test or didn't test well.
If they went gap then yeah he’s OT1 and it ain’t even close.
 

Rudy's Curve

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 4, 2006
2,333
If they went gap then yeah he’s OT1 and it ain’t even close.
Appreciate the input - Wright certainly makes a lot of sense and doesn't turn 22 until August despite playing four years. It seems the CB/TE (their other big needs) classes are much deeper, but it might be tough to find a legit starter at OT after the first round.
 

jk333

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 26, 2009
4,326
Boston
If they went gap then yeah he’s OT1 and it ain’t even close.
Any thoughts on Bergeron? (Syracuse) seems like you (and others) have touched on almost all the other top tackles! From reading I understand that he’s not in the top tier. Trying to see where he fits on the 2nd tier, Dawand, Bergeron, Freeland
 

SMU_Sox

queer eye for the next pats guy
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2009
8,920
Dallas
Appreciate the input - Wright certainly makes a lot of sense and doesn't turn 22 until August despite playing four years. It seems the CB/TE (their other big needs) classes are much deeper, but it might be tough to find a legit starter at OT after the first round.
It’s not a great tackle class and all the depth has a lot of questions. There aren’t a lot of middle round guys this year. Lots of these guys including 3/4 are projects in pass pro. Dawand Jones is someone @EL Jeffe likes a lot. He’s basically a lot like Trent Brown and Orlando Brown but even bigger and with even slower foot speed. When he’s beat he can’t recover. Shiftier and faster rushers can give him trouble. Power rushers though don’t stand a chance. Never going to be a consistent run blocker. Below average athlete but massive human being who actually has decent technique in pass pro.
 

SMU_Sox

queer eye for the next pats guy
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2009
8,920
Dallas
Any thoughts on Bergeron? (Syracuse) seems like you (and others) have touched on almost all the other top tackles! From reading I understand that he’s not in the top tier. Trying to see where he fits on the 2nd tier, Dawand, Bergeron, Freeland
Freeland is a major project as a run blocker and is getting better in pass pro but think of him as a super athlete with the size and length you want but who is raw AF. He is a TE/QB convert. I like him in round 3 but he’s a huge risk. He will never likely be a good run blocker.

Bergeron is an ass kicker as a run blocker. His pass pro can be messy. Shaky anchor. Holding penalties. Hands are bad. Footwork has false steps and other issues. I didn’t see a great athlete either. I think he’s probably a gap/power OG. Could be a guy who can play 4/5 positions on the line. He’s played both LT and RT.

Covered Dawand above.
 

SMU_Sox

queer eye for the next pats guy
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2009
8,920
Dallas
A weird thing to me was like a lot of the initial OL guys were talking about how guys like Brod Jones and Anton Harrison were really day 2//round 2-4 kind of guys when they first looked at them and NOW that has changed. I feel like the lack of OT depth is pushing these guys up.

Here is Lance Z's report on Bergeron btw who I am sticking to as a late 2nd to 3rd round kind of grade:

62056


A lot of folks have him close to or in the top 50. I am baffled. The issues he had in pass pro and you think he is magically going to fix his hands, his anchor, his footwork... and you'd take him in the top 50 even though he isn't an elite athlete AND even though you think he might be best at OG? What are we doing here?

Quick edit: Brod was initially thought of as a 2nd rounder. Bergeron was 3-4. Harrison was anywhere from late 1 to 4 but most of the OL guys I saw discussed him as a 2-3.

I get that grades will start to coalesce around the median as guys talk to each other and no one wants to stand out in a bad way but... these guys are getting bumped up way too much. The film hasn't changed!
 

SMU_Sox

queer eye for the next pats guy
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2009
8,920
Dallas
This btw was my report in December... and I am not going to magically bump him up because OL is weak this year:

Pass Blocking: He can’t hold up at LT and I don’t even know if he is athletic enough to play RT. He has a strong grip but he has issues with speed off the edge and Murphy bull-rushed him and long-armed him and he could not anchor. He got a lot of help too. I think he need to kick inside to guard. He was above average with his use of counters. He is really good vs twists and stunts. He was a lot better vs Notre Dame in pass pro but I still struggle to see him being anything more than a Swing OT and/or a below average starter on a team that likes to run a lot of inside zone or gap stuff.


Run Blocking: He’s strong and he's a good inside zone climber. His issues with run blocking are lateral agility is lacking and he doesn’t have good foot quickness. Prone to lunging. I like his ability to drive block. He is really nasty that way. He’s a classic road grater.


Overall: So he's in the 6.25-6.75 camp. He is either a low end starter or a good backup. I could see him being a starting OG too especially in a gap/power scheme or something with a lot of downhill and/or inside zone. Don’t like him in OZ at all. If he's an OT he is a swing or an RT. He might be best as an RG though - a run blocking guard. Senior bowl will be huge for him there.
 

jk333

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 26, 2009
4,326
Boston
Overall: So he's in the 6.25-6.75 camp. He is either a low end starter or a good backup. I could see him being a starting OG too especially in a gap/power scheme or something with a lot of downhill and/or inside zone. Don’t like him in OZ at all. If he's an OT he is a swing or an RT. He might be best as an RG though - a run blocking guard. Senior bowl will be huge for him there.
Great info! So he’s a steal in the 4th, pretty nice in the 3rd if you have both the right scheme and a guard spot open and a reach in the 2nd.
 

SMU_Sox

queer eye for the next pats guy
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2009
8,920
Dallas
Great info! So he’s a steal in the 4th, pretty nice in the 3rd if you have both the right scheme and a guard spot open and a reach in the 2nd.
Yes. He's another guy like Skor where, if you had a spot open at OG, cool, take him. If not? Stay awaaaaaay.
 

Shelterdog

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Feb 19, 2002
15,375
New York City
Yes. He's another guy like Skor where, if you had a spot open at OG, cool, take him. If not? Stay awaaaaaay.
You know, it's pretty clear that there are enough good edge rushers coming into the league that every team should be able to have some, but not enough enough tackles so every team can have two good tackles (let alone backups). It's going to be interesting to see how passing games adjust in the near term.
 

SMU_Sox

queer eye for the next pats guy
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2009
8,920
Dallas
You know, it's pretty clear that there are enough good edge rushers coming into the league that every team should be able to have some, but not enough enough tackles so every team can have two good tackles (let alone backups). It's going to be interesting to see how passing games adjust in the near term.
Well the best way to do that is quick game, making sure your TE and RB can... block, the RPO is a huge help there too. I am sure others will add things but you can even have a vertical based offense with shitty tackles if you're timing and anticipation is good even when your OL is mediocre: see Burrow, Bengals.

Oh another thing that helps? HAVING A MOBILE QB. ;). I am sorry that's in caps. It's just when I look at Mac Jones I really get frustrated vs even Burrow. His pressure to sack conversion rate sucks.
 

Shelterdog

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Feb 19, 2002
15,375
New York City
Well the best way to do that is quick game, making sure your TE and RB can... block, the RPO is a huge help there too. I am sure others will add things but you can even have a vertical based offense with shitty tackles if you're timing and anticipation is good even when your OL is mediocre: see Burrow, Bengals.

Oh another thing that helps? HAVING A MOBILE QB. ;). I am sorry that's in caps. It's just when I look at Mac Jones I really get frustrated vs even Burrow. His pressure to sack conversion rate sucks.
I'm not familiar with that stat but Mac seems ok in the pocket to me. (I think Burrow is actually very good in the pocket and his lines are just that bad). But definitely having a mobile QB definitely helps.
 

Rudy's Curve

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 4, 2006
2,333
I'm not familiar with that stat but Mac seems ok in the pocket to me. (I think Burrow is actually very good in the pocket and his lines are just that bad). But definitely having a mobile QB definitely helps.
Not to sidetrack the thread too much, but Burrow has talked about not all sacks being equal - it's a killer to take one on second and short/on the outskirts of FG range but it's worth trying to make a play on third and long in your own territory. He probably ends up taking more than he "should" even behind that line (the Titans playoff game is a good example), but they certainly haven't helped him. The 2020-21 lines in particular were just hideous. It seems like they'll walk away with Wright or Harrison if they're available.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
34,563
I'm not familiar with that stat but Mac seems ok in the pocket to me. (I think Burrow is actually very good in the pocket and his lines are just that bad). But definitely having a mobile QB definitely helps.
I think it's his worst quality. He doesn't see pressure well, and doesn't feel it, doesn't move well to avoid it except when he's able to tuck and run up the middle.
 

SMU_Sox

queer eye for the next pats guy
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2009
8,920
Dallas
What is funny is when I looked up his pressure to sack ratio he is 3rd worst of 19 starting QBs with more than 50% snaps at 23.4% and Burrow is behind him, 4th at 22.9%. So I was accidentally talking out of my ass. Mahomes is best at 9.8%. Brady was 6th best behind an equally terrible line at 14.5%. (At the end of the year the line got healthier to be fair).
 

EL Jeffe

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 30, 2006
1,324
It’s not a great tackle class and all the depth has a lot of questions. There aren’t a lot of middle round guys this year. Lots of these guys including 3/4 are projects in pass pro. Dawand Jones is someone @EL Jeffe likes a lot. He’s basically a lot like Trent Brown and Orlando Brown but even bigger and with even slower foot speed. When he’s beat he can’t recover. Shiftier and faster rushers can give him trouble. Power rushers though don’t stand a chance. Never going to be a consistent run blocker. Below average athlete but massive human being who actually has decent technique in pass pro.
Yeah, I'm really high on Dawand Jones. He's young for his draft class and he's gotten significantly better year over year. The arrow is pointing up on this guy. He's also an asskicker, with violent hands (I wish Paris Johnson had more of that in his game). Like SMU said, Jones isn't a finished product and they'll need to make sure he keeps his weight in check, but they've had success with Onwenu and Trent Brown who've dealt with similar concerns. I'm not convinced Jones lasts to 46, but there's always surprises every draft.
 

SMU_Sox

queer eye for the next pats guy
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2009
8,920
Dallas
It’s not the deepest DT class but there are some good fits for the Pats. 2 guys I really like are very similar: Keeanu Benton and Mazi Smith. These are day 2 players.

Mazi is massive and super athletic. He is a freak of freaks with incredible power. He’s going to be an elite or near elite run defender. He has great length and violence - can two gap excellently or penetrate. Will dominate and control OL and rag doll them as a run defender. Is often late to get off the snap, pad level can be high, and while he flashes as a pass rusher it’s a work in progress. He needs to learn to anchor better against double teams but should be able to do that. He can play all over the formation. Really good burst and bend and is deadly on twists and stunts. Can bend like an edge rusher. When it comes to stacking and shedding or penetrating vs the run he is exceptional. Huge tackle radius and he can adjust to ball carriers at a high level. High floor as a run defender and high ceiling if he can get coached up with his pass rush technique, snap timing, and anchoring vs double teams. Has all-pro traits.

Keeanu Benton is similar to Mazi but he’s about 30 pounds lighter and not quite as good of an athlete (no holes in his game though athletically and he is an 8.86 RAS). Another guy with very good length and who excels as a run defender. Tremendous upper body strength and who also has work to do Vs double teams. His stack and shed and tackling are all top notch. Can two-gap or penetrate. Like Mazi he controls the point of attack 1:1. Also like Mazi he lacks refinement as a pass rusher but flashes a decent repertoire. He dominated as a pass rusher at the senior bowl. Both guys have super high motors, play a lot of snaps, and don’t get tired. Like Mazi has some pad level issues he needs to fix but very good burst and bend for a DT. Good on twists and stunts. When his pad level is right his long-arm swim combo is deadly.

Keeanu is more of a 3 tech but can also play base end and maybe nose tackle but he’s a tick light for that.

Both guys are tough as nails with pro bowl athletic traits and need work as pass rushers.
 

SMU_Sox

queer eye for the next pats guy
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2009
8,920
Dallas
Oh and for a day 3 guy who fits a role Byron Young is an excellent two gapping run defender. Athletically limited but long and strong if undersized (doesn’t play like it). He is a plug-and-play run defender but offers next to nothing as a pass rusher and has a very limited ceiling there. As a run-stuffer though he’s top notch.
 

67YAZ

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 1, 2000
8,777
Another flag up on Carter. Hope this young man gets everything straightened out before he lets this massive, generational opportunity slip away.

 

Bowser

New Member
Sep 27, 2019
406
Difficult to see Carter slipping past Chicago at 9, but if he slides to 14, is he worth the PR hit for the Pats?

Also, @SMU_Sox, since you bring up DTs, any love for Gervon Dexter? Fails to time the snap too frequently, but huge, athletic. Maybe better suited for the three tech?

And how about Keion White? Deatrich Wise is coming off a career year, but he's 29 and is under contract for this year and next. Love to trade down in the first and take White.
 
Last edited:

SMU_Sox

queer eye for the next pats guy
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2009
8,920
Dallas
Difficult to see Carter slipping past Chicago at 9, but if he slides to 14, is he worth the PR hit the Pats?

Also, @SMU_Sox, since you bring up DTs, any love for Gervon Dexter? Fails to time the snap too frequently, but huge, athletic. Maybe better suited for the three tech?

And how about Keion White? Deatrich Wise is coming off a career year, but he's 29 and is under contract for this year and next. Love to trade down in the first and take White.
Like Keion White quite a bit. Definitely a fit here. Dexter is so raw. He’s a freak and body beautiful but he struggles in every aspect of the game and his technique is generally garbage. White is a power specialist. He is already good against the run and as a pass rusher his bullrush really moves guys. He has to add some polish to it and add a finisher but he’s a good prospect. He is also a little raw too. I’d think about Dexter in the 4th as a high end lotto ticket but he has no floor and he will need to redshirt and soak up a ton of coaching. He’s so far behind and underdeveloped that I worry he will never be that good.
 

Mystic Merlin

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 21, 2007
46,866
Hartford, CT
Difficult to see Carter slipping past Chicago at 9, but if he slides to 14, is he worth the PR hit for the Pats?

Also, @SMU_Sox, since you bring up DTs, any love for Gervon Dexter? Fails to time the snap too frequently, but huge, athletic. Maybe better suited for the three tech?

And how about Keion White? Deatrich Wise is coming off a career year, but he's 29 and is under contract for this year and next. Love to trade down in the first and take White.
Pass on Carter. Between the shitshow that is his handling of the accident and reportedly showing up ten pounds heavier to the combine, I’m good.
 

SMU_Sox

queer eye for the next pats guy
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2009
8,920
Dallas
I’ll update that thread as I go through him vs Ohio State. Folks he is excellent in zone coverage too! He is finally a complete linebacker who can cover and stop the run!
 

SMU_Sox

queer eye for the next pats guy
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2009
8,920
Dallas
Soooo I just made a bunch of updates. This guy is fucking legit. He’s absolutely a fit and I post a video of his one handed interception. I can’t stress how good he is. I feel like it would probably disappoint folks to take an ILB high but this guy is a game changer.
 

Bowser

New Member
Sep 27, 2019
406
Pass on Carter. Between the shitshow that is his handling of the accident and reportedly showing up ten pounds heavier to the combine, I’m good.
I'm with you. It sounds like he bombed his pro day not only because of the weight gain but also because he was gassed at the end of some of the drills. Not a great look. Maybe another year you roll the dice on him, but there'll be too much top end talent to bother.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
34,563
Soooo I just made a bunch of updates. This guy is fucking legit. He’s absolutely a fit and I post a video of his one handed interception. I can’t stress how good he is. I feel like it would probably disappoint folks to take an ILB high but this guy is a game changer.
I'm a big fan, and honestly wouldn't mind him in the 2nd at all, especially if they get an OT in the 1st or trade back.
 

Bowser

New Member
Sep 27, 2019
406
Soooo I just made a bunch of updates. This guy is fucking legit. He’s absolutely a fit and I post a video of his one handed interception. I can’t stress how good he is. I feel like it would probably disappoint folks to take an ILB high but this guy is a game changer.
No concern with his 4.65 time? Yes, it's pretty good for his size, and his 3-cone was excellent. But he lumbers just a bit, no? I like Campbell too, but I keep thinking this is the year we're going to find that fast 235 pound LB and figure out how to integrate him into this defense.

Note 1: Exact same 40 as Vander Esch; all other metrics very slightly worse, with the exception of the 3-cone (6.74 vs 6.88) and broad jump (10'8 vs 10'4), which were better.

Note 2: So yeah, pretty much Vander Esch, athletically.
 
Last edited:

SMU_Sox

queer eye for the next pats guy
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2009
8,920
Dallas
No concern with his 4.65 time? Yes, it's pretty good for his size, and his 3-cone was excellent. But he lumbers just a bit, no? I like Campbell too, but I keep thinking this is the year we're going to find that fast 235 pound LB and figure out how to integrate him into this defense.

Note 1: Exact same 40 as Vander Esch; all other metrics very slightly worse, with the exception of the 3-cone (6.74 vs 6.88) and broad jump (10'8 vs 10'4), which were better.

Note 2: So yeah, pretty much Vander Esch, athletically.
A 4.65 is fine and honestly it doesn’t matter much. The much more important number is his ridiculous 1.58 10 yard split. That’s nasty. You very rarely have to run more than 20 yards as a linebacker. His top end speed is satisfactory but his true on field speed is great. It’s even faster when you consider how good a processor he is. Your processing and mental traits are SO important as a linebacker and this guy is a natural.

Edit: if 1,000 linebackers are in a room only 2 will have a better size adjusted athletic score.
 

SMU_Sox

queer eye for the next pats guy
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2009
8,920
Dallas
I'm a big fan, and honestly wouldn't mind him in the 2nd at all, especially if they get an OT in the 1st or trade back.
I wouldn’t mind him there for sure. Honestly wouldn’t mind him at the back of the first if they trade back and then trade up from 46.
 

SMU_Sox

queer eye for the next pats guy
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2009
8,920
Dallas
Re: his range, @Bowser put it this way the man ain’t no 4-3 Will but he’s more than ok for the Patriots scheme and his route anticipation and recognition in zone as well as his processing and 10 yard split is fantastic for what they ask for their Mikes. Keep in mind guys like TJ Hockenson ran a 4.70 forty. So he can cover tight ends. Sure you don’t want to paste him in man vs a slot but they rarely ask their guys to do that.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
34,563
No concern with his 4.65 time? Yes, it's pretty good for his size, and his 3-cone was excellent. But he lumbers just a bit, no? I like Campbell too, but I keep thinking this is the year we're going to find that fast 235 pound LB and figure out how to integrate him into this defense.

Note 1: Exact same 40 as Vander Esch; all other metrics very slightly worse, with the exception of the 3-cone (6.74 vs 6.88) and broad jump (10'8 vs 10'4), which were better.

Note 2: So yeah, pretty much Vander Esch, athletically.
His splits are strong at 10 and 20 yards.
Comparing him to some of the top off-ball linebackers (from a PFF list of best LBs for 2023):
Fred Warner- tiny bit worse than Fred at every step of the 40 0.01 at 40m, 0.02 at 20m, 0.03 at 10,- better in every single other combine test at 16 pounds heavier
Lavonte David- Identical 40, Campbell has better splits and is better in everything except the shuttle (significantly so in some) at 16 pounds heavier
Shaq (formerly Darius) Leonard- Campbell ran better, better everywhere else (except tied Broad) at 15 pounds heavier
Matt Milano- Campbell is better at everything, often by a good margin, at 26 pounds heavier
Demario Davis- Davis has the better 40 time, but Campbell is significantly better in the splits (0.08 at 10m, 0.04 at 20m), Davis has the better vert, Campbell the rest, at 14 pounds heavier
Bobby Wagner- slightly faster at all steps of the 40, better a few other spots too, Campbell takes agility by a decent margin at 18 pounds heavier
Dee Greenlaw- Campbell across the board better at 18 pounds heavier
Roquan Smith- Smith is better at 40m and 20m, identical at 10m, at 13 pounds heavier.

General takeaway is that Campbell isn't really at any clear disadvantage against any top LB athletically despite being bigger, except maybe at the full 40m, and nobody really runs that far on a sprint in games.
 

SMU_Sox

queer eye for the next pats guy
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2009
8,920
Dallas
Noah Sewell is a day 3 thumper fit. ILB is really thin though and aside from Campbell there are no high end or even day 2 fits. Weak ILB class.
 

Bowser

New Member
Sep 27, 2019
406
Re: his range, @Bowser put it this way the man ain’t no 4-3 Will but he’s more than ok for the Patriots scheme and his route anticipation and recognition in zone as well as his processing and 10 yard split is fantastic for what they ask for their Mikes. Keep in mind guys like TJ Hockenson ran a 4.70 forty. So he can cover tight ends. Sure you don’t want to paste him in man vs a slot but they rarely ask their guys to do that.
General takeaway is that Campbell isn't really at any clear disadvantage against any top LB athletically despite being bigger, except maybe at the full 40m, and nobody really runs that far on a sprint in games.
Well, hell, I'm convinced. Maybe he looks a bit slow because he's 6'5"? Anyway, I'll add him to the binkies list: Deonte Banks, Keion White, Mazi Smith, Brentz, Laporta, and Robert Beal, Jr.
Noah Sewell is a day 3 thumper fit. ILB is really thin though and aside from Campbell there are no high end or even day 2 fits. Weak ILB class.
I'm intrigued by Dorian Williams as a smaller, quicker ILB. 6'1" and 228. Team captain. 4.49 forty. In the Mack Wilson vein but can maybe play some snaps on D.
 

Devizier

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 3, 2000
19,542
Somewhere
I’m wondering about Mazi Smith. Seems like a guy with his profile should be a first rounder. But his college stats seem a little underwhelming. Certainly not in the same zip code as someone like Wilfork. Is there some untapped potential there?