2023-24 Celtics

[PedroKsBambino]

What they are saying is just a repeat of what the ref announced last night---there was contact with the ball first and contact with the head after that is acceptable so long as not excessive. I agree that contact was not excessive.

Of course, that is not the sequence that actually happened (there's some pretty clear pictures out there showing head contact prior to ball contact) but I get their problem that it looks really sketchy to do the full review last night and, with zero new data today, say anything different.

 

[Silverdude2167]

I enjoy the fact that not only did they mess up the Brown play, they had two more incorrect calls go against the C's in 2 seconds directly deciding the game.

GJGE

How anyone bets on the NBA is beyond me.

 

[Light-Tower-Power]

The officiating in this league is a problem and there is zero accountability. Anyone who expected anything different out of the L2M report was dreaming. Completely unsurprising they doubled down on that crock of shit.

 

[m0ckduck]

Guess this part of the rulebook is irrelevant:

c. To overturn a challenged event or to change the outcome of a reviewable matter via a Challenge, there must be clear and conclusive visual evidence that the initial adjudication of that aspect of the play was incorrect.


There is nothing clear, or conclusive on that replay to overturn that call. They made a completely subjective decision. Determining that contact is incidental is the definition of subjective, and thus, cannot also be clear and conclusive.

This has always been problem #1 with replay in all major sports: the inability of referees and umpires to use replay only as a means of redressing grossly unjust calls on the court/field, and the inevitable drift towards using it as the main arbiter of what actually happened.

Problem #2 is, and has always been, that reviewing things at super slo-mo creates new fictitious narratives. Viewed at full speed, it's clear that Hield hits Brown in the head. Viewed at a different speed, it seems arguable (although not really) that the block occurs before the hit. To be clear, even in the so-mo replay, it's clear that the hit happens that the same time as the block, but slowing things down allows at least for some interpretation that the block happened first.

 

[Light-Tower-Power]

Delete.

 

[Leon Trotsky]

Where is the official's apology to Jaylen/Porzingis, like Lebron got? WTF, man!

 

[benhogan]

I always kind of snickered about the hand being part of the ball, on fouls, now hitting the head is cool???

If they don't reverse that call: Indiana loses their timeout, Jaylen gets 2 FTs and the Pacers need to go the length of the court. UGH!

While the reversed CALL is an absolute joke, it is kind of obfuscating a small problem with that possession.

Why is Jaylen going into his shot with over 4 seconds left? even if he makes the shot, or gets the foul call you are leaving 3 seconds on the clock for the Pacers, who have a timeout (which was enough time to get Mathurin 3 FTs).

ALSO Jaylen had TJ trailing him, Mathurin fronting him, and Buddy blocking/hacking him from behind.

Jaylen's ISO did its job, it drew 3 defenders, with plenty of time to pass to a wide-open White.

Maybe Joe needs to start calling TOs and draw up ATO plays with the shot clock off and the game in the balance.

A January loss in Indiana isn't that big of a deal, but we should address/debate the process that led to the refs stealing it
(besides Q3 defensive collapse)

 

[benhogan]

https://www.masslive.com/celtics/2024/01/last-2-minute-report-reveals-critical-missed-calls-in-celtics-loss-to-pacers.html

It shouldn't be lost in all the ruckus that CJM's play with .5 left where Luke almost tipped it in was pretty damn close.

Well-drawn-up/executed play

 

[Leon Trotsky]

I think it is clear (notwithstanding game thread whining) that Joe Mazzulla with a full staff is a good coach. They team in all facets looks better than last year and improving. I feel the team must already have set plays in place for the end of game situation even without a timeout called, with either Jayson or Jaylen initiating and making the play. It does fit that he is trying to get them in-game reps with that in case they need it when it really matters.

 

[benhogan]

I think it is clear (notwithstanding game thread whining) that Joe Mazzulla with a full staff is a good coach. They team in all facets looks better than last year and improving. I feel the team must already have set plays in place for the end of game situation even without a timeout called, with either Jayson or Jaylen initiating and making the play. It does fit that he is trying to get them in-game reps with that in case they need it when it really matters.

Agreed. Joe with a year under his belt, no interim label + a veteran staff that doesn't have one foot out the door is a huge help.

The roster upgrade has also been massive. Three new starters + bigger roles for PP/Hauser means the JAYs don't have to do it on their own. Jrue, White, KP, Horford, SH, & PP all have +eFG%, an open shot from anyone in the rotation will be better than most challenged shots.

 

[bankshot1]

The NBA in defense of poor officiating that materially altered what was generally
a well played and entertaining game, made incidental contact with some facts in a transparent attempt to cover its ass and distort the reality to what was perfectly clear in real time.

If you're gonna let em play, you let em play on both ends.

 

[Jed Zeppelin]

There was no chance of getting anything different from the league after an arm of the league office itself made the replay call but it’s still sickening to see it emblazoned in print.

 

[Euclis20]

Never in my life have I found a L2M report satisfying. Either they try to piss on my head and tell me it's raining, or they tell me that my team may have lost the game because of a bad call. I like that they look at this calls after the fact because it theoretically should make the league and the officials better in the long run, but there's never any closure or joy for me when these things come out.

 

[tims4wins]

Man if the new standard is you can hit a guy in the head so long as you get ball soon thereafter.

Yikes. Jalen's head visibly moves after the contact.

This, to me, is one of the worst ever replay review outcomes of all time, given the call on the court and the slow-mo video evidence. I don't make that statement lightly.

 

[CoffeeNerdness]

Maybe Joe needs to start calling TOs and draw up ATO plays with the shot clock off and the game in the balance.

They're 0-fer using the no-TO strategy, right? I can't recall a single time where it worked.

 

[128]

View: https://twitter.com/jaytatum0/status/1744868797394100604

 

[the moops]

The offensive foul on Turner screening White is never getting called, especially because the players weren't involved in the final play.

My question is why was the final review only looking at the clock and not whether Porzingis actually committed a foul? BOS had a timeout left, did Joe not challenge?

Also, if you are an official and there was such an obvious miss on the other end, just swallow your whistle and let the game go to OT to be decided

 

[NomarsFool]

I have a hard time understanding how contact with someone's HEAD could be "incidental" at all.

The KP call, seemed like there was some contact to me - certainly could have not called it, as it seemed like a bailout call. Especially given how late it was.

 

[Red Right Ankle]

Man if the new standard is you can hit a guy in the head so long as you get ball soon thereafter.

Yikes. Jalen's head visibly moves after the contact.

This, to me, is one of the worst ever replay review outcomes of all time, given the call on the court and the slow-mo video evidence. I don't make that statement lightly.

Draymond getting back on the court at the perfect time.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

View: https://twitter.com/jaytatum0/status/1744868797394100604

I legit feel that the report got all 3 wrong lol.

 

[joe dokes]

I legit feel that the report got all 3 wrong lol.

Hield fouled JB, and Porzingos fouled Matherin, too. (Of course, 2 doesnt happen if they dont blow 1.)

 

[Euclis20]

The offensive foul on Turner screening White is never getting called, especially because the players weren't involved in the final play.

My question is why was the final review only looking at the clock and not whether Porzingis actually committed a foul? BOS had a timeout left, did Joe not challenge?

Also, if you are an official and there was such an obvious miss on the other end, just swallow your whistle and let the game go to OT to be decided

Boston lost a challenge earlier in the game, we couldn't challenge.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Hield fouled JB, and Porzingos fouled Matherin, too. (Of course, 2 doesnt happen if they dont blow 1.)

Yes that's what I mean. I don't think that's an illegal screen either or at least one that is ever getting called.

 

[radsoxfan]

No doubt this L2M report is apparently sanctioning an entirely new defensive strategy.

As long as you get to the ball, you can go through someone’s head in the process.

If that is incidental contact (is there such a thing when it’s your head?!?!) AND that’s allowed in the process of getting to the ball, they’ve changed the way the game is played.

They’re so so bad and double down on the insanity. Just an embarrassment.

 

[Ed Hillel]

The contact with the head also comes before contact with the ball. So that entire premise is wrong anyway.

 

[Smokey Joe]

No doubt this L2M report is apparently sanctioning an entirely new defensive strategy.

As long as you get to the ball, you can go through someone’s head in the process.

If that is incidental contact (is there such a thing when it’s your head?!?!) AND that’s allowed in the process of getting to the ball, they’ve changed the way the game is played.

They’re so so bad and double down on the insanity. Just an embarrassment.

The head is part of the ball.

 

[lars10]

Hield fouled JB, and Porzingos fouled Matherin, too. (Of course, 2 doesnt happen if they dont blow 1.)

According to the report KP didn’t commit a foul either I believe.

 

[benhogan]

They're 0-fer using the no-TO strategy, right? I can't recall a single time where it worked.

The theory is it doesn't give the defense a chance to substitute. Plus conventional wisdom says most NBA teams just go ISO at the end of games anyway.

BUT you don't want to go ISO, dribble into double teams, and force up challenged shots when you have 5 All-Star-level players in the closing lineup. And CJM shouldn't be all that concerned about other teams' lineups when you have KP posting at the nail.

At this point, CJM should test out drawing up plays in that situation. It will be fun/interesting to see how it plays out.

According to the report KP didn’t commit a foul either I believe.

Yes, that is correct. There were 2 Reffing errors there (well 3 errors if you count the reversal) in the last 3.5 seconds

The report showed that the foul on Kristaps Porzingis while contesting a Benedict Mathurin jumper with 0.6 seconds remaining was an incorrect call since Porzingis “is above the ball and legally contests Mathurin’s (IND) shot attempt, with some incidental arm contact occurring concurrent with the block.”

The report also acknowledges a missed offensive foul call on Myles Turner on the same play for setting a moving screen against Derrick White.

 

[the moops]

It was such a bad shot by Jaylen. If you are going to go at 6 seconds you do so in case the exact thing happens. You get tripled team, and now you have time to pass out of it, and even the guy you pass it to has time to swing it again. White was wide open with his arms up waiting for the pass. If Jaylen swings it to him, Al is also wide open in the opposite corner. Or you go at 6 seconds and you get a layup.

 

[InstaFace]

The head is part of the ball.

If you dribble the head after severing it from the body, it counts as a ball.

 

[PrestonBroadus Lives]

No doubt this L2M report is apparently sanctioning an entirely new defensive strategy.

As long as you get to the ball, you can go through someone’s head in the process.

If that is incidental contact (is there such a thing when it’s your head?!?!) AND that’s allowed in the process of getting to the ball, they’ve changed the way the game is played.

They’re so so bad and double down on the insanity. Just an embarrassment.

The quote from the rulebook they used in the L2M report leaves out the second half of the definition. Here it is in full:

The mere fact that contact occurs does not necessarily constitute a foul. Contact which
is incidental to an effort by a player to play an opponent, reach a loose ball, or perform
normal defensive or offensive movements, should not be considered illegal. If, however, a
player attempts to play an opponent from a position where he has no reasonable chance to
perform without making contact with his opponent, the responsibility is on the player in this
position.

I'm open to other interpretations, but my reading of "no reasonable chance to perform without making contact" seems to cover going through a guy to get the ball. And if my interpretation is correct, I think it's pretty damning that the league chose to purposely omit that section of the definition from the report.

 

[128]

n/m

 

[128]

At least on the two whistles that were blown. I missed Turner's illegal screen.

 

[lovegtm]

The quote from the rulebook they used in the L2M report leaves out the second half of the definition. Here it is in full:



I'm open to other interpretations, but my reading of "no reasonable chance to perform without making contact" seems to cover going through a guy to get the ball. And if my interpretation is correct, I think it's pretty damning that the league chose to purposely omit that section of the definition from the report.

Yes, that play is always a foul. For some reason, the crew was very determined to not call that a foul. First, the official lied to Jaylen about his head being hit, and then the L2M gives that incomplete "incidental" clarification.

Why are they so determined that this call not be a foul in this instance? Who knows, man.

 

[joe dokes]

According to the report KP didn’t commit a foul either I believe.

Right. But as with the no-foul on Jaylen, the report is wrong. They were both fouls, IMO.

 

[RorschachsMask]

Not sure where to put this, but I have two tickets for tonight’s game and can’t make it. They are seats 11/12, row 14, section 314. Tickets around them are going for $150+ each on stubhub/etc, but I’d gladly take $200 for both from someone here.

If anyone is interested, just PM me.

 

[NomarsFool]

Also, doesn't Jaylen's head visibly move as he is being hit? That is pretty much the defining criteria for "non-incidental" in my view. The fact that they said the head contact was "not excessive" is a joke. Correct, it was not "excessive". There's a lot of space between "incidental" and "not excessive".

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

Yes, that play is always a foul. For some reason, the crew was very determined to not call that a foul. First, the official lied to Jaylen about his head being hit, and then the L2M gives that incomplete "incidental" clarification.

Why are they so determined that this call not be a foul in this instance? Who knows, man.

The biggest problem with the L2M report is that they don't address the fact that the call on the floor was a foul. Maybe theoretically there's an argument that such an act might not warrant a foul call but there's simply no way that's clear and conclusive evidence that a foul didn't happen - which is why teams almost never challenge a call that has contact during the game.

Good thing none of this matters. Maybe they'll get a call in the playoffs as a karmic balance.

Not sure where to put this, but I have two tickets for tonight’s game and can’t make it. They are seats 11/12, row 14, section 314. Tickets around them are going for $150+ each on stubhub/etc, but I’d gladly take $200 for both from someone here.

If anyone is interested, just PM me.

Damn I wish I could take them but it's a pretty long drive for me.

There's a ticket forum if you want to post there too: https://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?forums/face-value-ticket-swap.38/.

 

[PedroKsBambino]

Yes, that play is always a foul. For some reason, the crew was very determined to not call that a foul. First, the official lied to Jaylen about his head being hit, and then the L2M gives that incomplete "incidental" clarification.

Why are they so determined that this call not be a foul in this instance? Who knows, man.

I think the likely explanation is that the NBA replay center in NJ blew the call, and NBA is loathe to admit that happens. The call on floor was correct, so the replay center not only got it wrong (which is, from pics posted, essentially indisputable) which is bad, but got it wrong against a standard of review to defer to the actually-correct call on the floor. That's a pretty egregious miss, and one that process-wise is simply indefensible.

So, rather than own all that, they positioned L2M as spin...because they knew they blew the call yesterday and simply lawyered up the response (note use of the 'clearly' language in explanation to try to allude to rule) rather than admitting it.

If I were guessing on the 'no hit to head' that is either a disagreement among the refs at the game, or a statement the replay center made and is shared to exlain why the call was reversed.

A fact consistent with this interpretation (league knew call was wrong by sometime yesterday?) No fine for Jaylen, at least yet.

 

[Over Guapo Grande]

Boston lost a challenge earlier in the game, we couldn't challenge.

Even with a challenge left, that would be a tough one to risk. I know you'd "have to" do it. But if you lose the challenge, you have almost no shot of tying/winning the game without that last timeout.

 

[lovegtm]

Even with a challenge left, that would be a tough one to risk. I know you'd "have to" do it. But if you lose the challenge, you have almost no shot of tying/winning the game without that last timeout.

The same was true for Indy though: if Carlisle loses the challenge, they have 3.2 seconds to go up the floor after Jaylen presumably hits at least 1 FT.

Gotta spend money to make money.

 

[Jed Zeppelin]

Unless they were operating fully on a "don't decide the game policy" I see no way in hell Secaucus would have overturned the Porzingis call.

 

[Over Guapo Grande]

The same was true for Indy though: if Carlisle loses the challenge, they have 3.2 seconds to go up the floor after Jaylen presumably hits at least 1 FT.

Gotta spend money to make money.

3.2 is a lot different than 0.5. You can potentially get a look, rather than just a heave.

 

[Deathofthebambino]

Not sure where to put this, but I have two tickets for tonight’s game and can’t make it. They are seats 11/12, row 14, section 314. Tickets around them are going for $150+ each on stubhub/etc, but I’d gladly take $200 for both from someone here.

If anyone is interested, just PM me.

I just shot you a PM.

 

[the moops]

3.2 is a lot different than 0.5. You can potentially get a look, rather than just a heave.

.3

 

[Over Guapo Grande]

.3

Hey, whenever it is 3, I say it is 5. Old habits.

 

[InstaFace]

Hey, whenever it is 3, I say it is 5. Old habits.

View: https://youtu.be/xOrgLj9lOwk?t=38

 

[tims4wins]

When do we think the inevitable home loss is going to occur? I'm looking at Jan 10 vs. the Wolves. First night of a B2B with @ MIL the following night.

Shit.

 

[Red Averages]

Never.In.Doubt

in all seriousness, that was a fantastic close out and OT. I couldn’t see anything before the 4th, so not sure if I missed some bad stuff.

Also let’s not give Jaylen the ball when the other team is trying to get turnovers….

 

[koufax32]

I say sit the entire top six tomorrow for load management and just to tell the league schedule makers that they suck at their jobs.

I’m 82% joking.

GJGE nimrods.