I think age and injury have caught up with Smart, now White seems like the better player to me. I’d prefer Smart’s energy bursts off the bench. And I’d look into Smart’s value in the offseason to see if there’s anything out there that makes sense for the roster.
2022-2023 General Celtics thread
- Thread starter RorschachsMask
- Start date
I would by this if more the coach recognized that the starters weren't going to get it done that night and gave them an early night off. When the starters failure to play the way the team needs to play to win leads to them getting higher workloads is makes me think something is amiss.
He was pretty bad last night, but he's just coming off a DPOY of the year season. A little early to be writing him off.
If there's a takeaway from that game for me it's that PP clearly just doesn't have value to this team. Got hunted defensively and couldn't get a shot off.
Well they were getting it done, and then they weren't. I think there's value in making them work to get it back, make them understand what it is that makes them successful. Hard to flip the switch though when you've given the other team that much momentum.
100% this. I think last night was just a letdown and that shit happens. Sandwiched in between two revenge games against CLE and NYK, plus no Kyrie and no KD. You could sense it in the crowd too - it was extremely dead for a Friday night because no one got the game they were expecting to see. The guy sitting next to me put it perfectly - if KD and Kyrie were out there they’d have been up 15 in the fourth and I am completely on board with that thinking. And I don’t think it matters one iota. If they get through the playoffs healthy they are raising #18 in October. The end. Health is all that matters.
I’m not writing him off, but he now gets hurt a lot and really doesn’t seem like the same player to me this season. White has improved dramatically, and is younger/healthier/probably more reliable moving forward. I wouldn’t at all be opposed to making the switch and selling high on Marcus, unless they think he holds the locker room together. The way he plays and given his size, I’m not sure the other side of 30 will be so forgiving.
The TimeLord hamstring thing is the worst thing to happen last night, and that's saying something in a game that saw the biggest collapse in the NBA in 25 years.
I've never really known whether health was a skill or just genetic luck or what, but whatever it is that keeps you on the floor, Bob just doesn't seem to have it.
On the flipside, I don't know if the numbers bear this out, but they clearly have to play differently when he's in the game, since he's the only real non-shooter on the roster. Can't go five-out, and he's generally in the lane or around it, so it sometimes gums up the drive and kick (though it should theoretically also open up the lobs if his man helps, so I dunno).
If he's out for a few games, giving Muscala a look for 15/20 minutes a game would be interesting to me and maybe it gets Grant going again. It's kind of crazy he's only taken one two-point shot in the last six games (including the DNP).
I've never really known whether health was a skill or just genetic luck or what, but whatever it is that keeps you on the floor, Bob just doesn't seem to have it.
On the flipside, I don't know if the numbers bear this out, but they clearly have to play differently when he's in the game, since he's the only real non-shooter on the roster. Can't go five-out, and he's generally in the lane or around it, so it sometimes gums up the drive and kick (though it should theoretically also open up the lobs if his man helps, so I dunno).
If he's out for a few games, giving Muscala a look for 15/20 minutes a game would be interesting to me and maybe it gets Grant going again. It's kind of crazy he's only taken one two-point shot in the last six games (including the DNP).
Here’s a write up on the interview
https://awfulannouncing.com/nba/boston-celtics-announcer-mike-gorman-details-medical-emergency.html
It’s going to be a sad day when he hangs em up for good. He’s been the one constant voice of the Celtics my entire life.
Of all the concerns listed in these pages, Gorman's health eclipses them by orders and orders of magnitude.
Still not worried about the team or their myriad of deeper problems that led to their soul crushing 19th loss of the season - and its not yet April! Gorman 4ever though.
We were leaving a game a few years ago from the nosebleeds and ended up next to him on the ramp. I figured he was grabbing the T maybe, but he just walks home, exiting with the fans.
Having your retina re-attached in Boston in the morning and being in New York to call the game at night is bonkers.
Did he take the team plane? Even flying charter is crazy town after a surgery.
I admire that amount of not giving a fuck greatly.
Did he take the team plane? Even flying charter is crazy town after a surgery.
I admire that amount of not giving a fuck greatly.
Maybe this should go in the other thread but the two semi-worrying things that came from last night tto me are:
(1) This one is from Scal on the post-game show. The Cs are really good when they play with pace; the ball hits the paint; and then it moves. When adversity strikes, instead of trying to play faster, they play slower. Slower and more one-on-one, which is not a good recipe for this team
(2) Despite having a plethora of good to great defenders, hey appear not to have a stopper on defense and they have given up a bunch of 40 (or near 40 point) games to folks this season. Yes, some of it is scheme but to me they have to tweak their scheme to figure out how to stop guys who are on a roll. But what do I know?
BTW, NY and BRK played the Cs pretty much the same way - spread 'em out, find the mismatch, and pound it. I don't think I've ever seen as many half-court layups in one game as I saw last night.
(1) This one is from Scal on the post-game show. The Cs are really good when they play with pace; the ball hits the paint; and then it moves. When adversity strikes, instead of trying to play faster, they play slower. Slower and more one-on-one, which is not a good recipe for this team
(2) Despite having a plethora of good to great defenders, hey appear not to have a stopper on defense and they have given up a bunch of 40 (or near 40 point) games to folks this season. Yes, some of it is scheme but to me they have to tweak their scheme to figure out how to stop guys who are on a roll. But what do I know?
The 48 minute win (when they only played abotu 46 minutes) was quite good as well.
BTW, NY and BRK played the Cs pretty much the same way - spread 'em out, find the mismatch, and pound it. I don't think I've ever seen as many half-court layups in one game as I saw last night.
I’m not even sure how this is possible. After my retina surgery, and heavily researching the proper recovery, the surgeon should have instructed him to have his head facing completely down for 45 min, up for 15, down for 45. Up 15, etc.
I guess maybe he didn’t walk to the game, but I like my variation better.
I think if this team's strategy now is trying to do just enough to get the win, that's going to be a recipe for disaster. They're playing NBA teams, and not all that much separates the best and worst teams. On a given night, any team can beat any other team. Doing just enough to get the win will force you to play harder, ironically, because instead of blowing out a team and resting your starters, the game will be close in the late going, and your opponent will be given hope by the closeness of the margin.
I just watched the first half last night, but was alarmed at how apathetic the Celts looked in the second half of the second quarter, giving up most of a dominant 28-point lead. It doesn't sound like they brought much fight out after halftime either. If there was an award for "Cheese Dick Loss of the Year," this would be my candidate, easily. The Celts have lost games they shouldn't have this year, but this is the only game I can think of where they came out, showed clearly they were the superior team, then just pulled the plug on the effort level and let their inferior opponent beat them over the head.
I just watched the first half last night, but was alarmed at how apathetic the Celts looked in the second half of the second quarter, giving up most of a dominant 28-point lead. It doesn't sound like they brought much fight out after halftime either. If there was an award for "Cheese Dick Loss of the Year," this would be my candidate, easily. The Celts have lost games they shouldn't have this year, but this is the only game I can think of where they came out, showed clearly they were the superior team, then just pulled the plug on the effort level and let their inferior opponent beat them over the head.
Can’t opine on the other stuff, but White is all of 118 days younger than Smart.
We get that you've been trying to get rid of Marcus for years now, but you're way overselling here. I mean, yes, White is younger, by four months. Not exactly a difference maker. On the other hand, there's also a 30-40lb mass difference that makes White huntable by larger players. There's value in guys Marcus's height that can credibly defend bigs. And, again, guys like Smart always have more value to their own teams than other teams. So the trade value won't be terribly high.
Setting aside usage issues (I assume that Mazzulla gets input from the front office on usage etc so its probably on the entire Celtics braintrust versus just the head coach), I would prefer that my team have both White and Smart. But I get that Smart's style of play makes C's games almost unwatchable for some folks. There is no evidence that Smart is falling off in a big way but there is evidence that White has improved this season.
Again, why not both?
Again, why not both?
In the playoffs, when things slow and it becomes a half-court slogfest Smart becomes extremely valuable in their 15 defense.
I wouldn't expect any changes to Boston's TOP7 over the next few seasons.
I wouldn't expect any changes to Boston's TOP7 over the next few seasons.
We are going to need a big real soon between Horford’s long tooth and Time Lord’s long and brittle limbs.
Al will never age in my eyes
They have MM & Luke for depth next season.
BUT you're right, Brad will have to shake some trees and see if he can find himself a healthy BIG in the summer
Yes, I'm not sure if it's a coaching/management concept or if the players are just prone to turning the effort spigot on and off according to the game situation or opponent, but I kinda hate this mentality. It feels like the kind of mentality that can leak into playoff time and lead to an early exit. Obviously, the season is a slog and there will be dozens of lapses and moments of weakness, but the expectation that you can ratchet up the effort when it matters the most can simply blow up in your face. What feels better if you're a player: maintaining focus in the second quarter and playing a bit of D so you can watch the last six minutes comfortably from the bench, or seeing your huge lead evaporate and going max effort in the fourth only to see your comeback attempt end in embarrassing fashion?
This has been 99.8% of NBA teams for over half a century. Auerbach’s Celtics used to have this problem even in the playoffs with several sub-.500 teams dragging them to 7 games. Imagine the heat Red would have taken if social media was around then?
It happened twice to under 0.500 teams during the Russell era; of course, the playoff field was markedly smaller back then:
1957 Hawks, but that was in the Finals and the Hawks had multiple MVP winner Bob Petit and were probably a much better team than their record.
1959 Syracuse Nationals, where the home team won every game. The Celtics just did not like playing in Syracuse that season (1-7 overall including playoffs).
A couple of close to 0.500 teams also stretched the Celtics to 7:
1963 Royals (4 games over 0.500, 16 games behind the Celtics) under Oscar Robertson. A surprisingly difficult series for the Green Team in which the road team won the first 4 games and Oscar Robertson went supernova.
1965 76'ers (40-40). Of course, there was a mid-season trade that was not fully reflected in Philly's regular season record.
And one memorable series during the Bird era was the 1984 epic against Bernard King and the Knicks, an over .500 team that finished 15 games behind Boston that season.
The one way NBA teams can combat lethargy, over a long season, is by playing a lot of the roster. Keep guys fresh and define bench roles. CJM has done a decent job of involving 1-14.
BUT Joe needs to get Granite going, who has fallen off a cliff. The DNP-CD wasn't necessary IMO. Players' egos are fragile and even Grant is no exception. They need to play Grant and also get Muscala involved. As always the Celtics Achilles Heal is Time Lord's fragileness, so like it or not GW/MM will impact the Celtics playoffs. My hope is Joe plays those two quite a bit over the last 20 games
Doing a quick search, as coach Red was 8-0 in 7th games, including 2 7-game series wins against (slighly below .500 teams) the Hawks and Nats. To suggest it was a recurring problem seems overblown and a false narrative. If social media was present WBE, Red would have been lauded as a genius (in Red (BB) we trust dare I say) and he'd blow smoke at his critics.
I remember as a kid being shocked when the Celts went down 2-1 to Oscar and Jerry's Royals in the post-season. IIRC Celts won in 7.
I do think it does suggest that the intensity factor is important though in the post-season, when less talented teams can take better teams 7-games and that intensity factor, or playing with reduced urgency, or a belief of turn it on when we need it, may be at play for this iteration of Celts. And they can't rely solely on talent or depth, they have to be a little tougher and play hard to the buzzer.
Edit nice job Lex
I remember as a kid being shocked when the Celts went down 2-1 to Oscar and Jerry's Royals in the post-season. IIRC Celts won in 7.
I do think it does suggest that the intensity factor is important though in the post-season, when less talented teams can take better teams 7-games and that intensity factor, or playing with reduced urgency, or a belief of turn it on when we need it, may be at play for this iteration of Celts. And they can't rely solely on talent or depth, they have to be a little tougher and play hard to the buzzer.
Edit nice job Lex
So if intensity was lacking in some of Red’s playoff games why wouldn’t he receive the same treatment that Joe is in regular season losses? Actually, the scrutiny should be greater. This was my point that you confirmed…..the intensity levels of all teams fluctuate regardless of whether you have the greatest coach of all time or not. That’s been the NBA forever.
Comparing Red Auerbach and CJM is ridiculous off the bat.
To compare their playoff records is another false narrative. It can't be done. CJM doesn't have one.
My observations this year is that this year's Celts have lost several games when they've had big leads, and generally against teams they should beat. They pissed away games through a combo of lack their lack of intensity, falling into those bad habits on both ends of the floor, and letting other teams exploit those tendencies. And for too fucking long.
It has been a recurring problem.
As I recall your general answer was "no big deal its only a couple of games" in December, January, February.
I expect March is next.
When it become mid April it may become more apparent to you its a problem.
Lol nobody is comparing Joe to Red…..only teams who lose games that they should win due to the fluctuating intensity of a long season that occurs with nearly every team that ever played in the NBA.
There is a very good chance we don’t win a a championship this year…..the odds are very much against us. Not sure what that has to do with a weird effort in a game that was scheduled to have a weird effort occur.
This is why I would like to see Joe give the stars an early night when they come out like this. Just because they don;t want to be doing their jobs in that moment doesn't mean those minutes can't be used productively.
Yep, it's not only a wear-n-tear, cumulative minutes issue. Keeping the entire roster involved creates greater effort throughout the regular season IMO.
If you are a believer that "it's 1/82, doesn't matter much" then the team should be more inclined to play 6-9. I'm expecting (hoping) CJM doesn't lean on playing the starting 5 large minutes down the stretch
This is extremely fair imo, and Pop used to do it a lot. He framed it as "if you're not going to try, I'm not going to play you tonight", but it amounts to the same thing.
I expect Joe to go deeper in the next two games over these 24 hours especially with the travel factored in. Able to watch entire game live tonight I’m excited.
I was annoyed that the announcers/side-line people kept talking about Grant's DNP-CD as a "sacrifice for the team". That's nonsense. A sacrifice is when a better player might sit because the team is trying to get a rehabbing player back into shape, or something like that. Not playing because the coach thinks another player would be better than you is not a sacrifice. You want to play more? Be better.
Ageee that the “sacrificing” angle is often misused/misunderstood either by commentators or because of the influence of commentators. I remember losing my shit in 2008 whenever people credited Pierce, Allen and KG for “sacrificing”……..after each toiled the prior two years on lottery teams as the end of their primes quickly approaching. Sacrificing? Are you for real? They were in freakin heaven!!
White was the only guy on the bench who was worthy of being on the floor, and they needed Grant's physicality out there. Could have played White for Smart, but Smart came up pretty big on numerous occasions. Tough call.
Tough loss but I loved them coming back after all the momentum was lost. Defensive intensity down the stretch was excellent.
Either Or.
LOL! The game situation dictated it so I expect everyone to sit tomorrow. Herm Edwards and all that. I think this team needed a game like this at playoff intensity at this point in time, win or lose.
I’m a big time Hauser and thinks he holds his own on D better than most but holy shit was he bad tonight defensively. Put the Knicks down as a bad matchup for him perhaps.
I think the league has figured out that he's ok on straight line drives but suffers greatly when he has to change directions. He was a great story early on but I don't think he'll get many non-blowout minutes in the playoffs.
When I saw how little Josh Hart was dealt for I was sorry that Boston couldn’t have inserted themselves into that deal.
24-15 since the 21-5 start, which is a 50 win pace. Obviously that’s still a pretty good team, but they haven’t looked consistently great for a while now. Some may argue they haven’t looked as good at all this year as they did during their great run last February.
They look like an underachieving second round exit team to me. At least Jayson Tatum got to do his All-Star MVP shoe launch thing.
We were spoiled last calendar year but the biggest issue for me is that this just isn’t that tough of a team when Brogdon and/or TL are out. Opponents clearly know this too. You had Quickley skipping around on them on their home court and they were powerless to stop it.
Lots of people keep referencing the absences of Brogdon/TL but, well, this team needs to figure out how to play without 2 of the more injury-prone players in the league. They’ve actually been pretty fortunate with the availability of each guy until recently. But this is where Grant’s disappearing act really hurts. They’re now effectively down 3 key rotation guys.
End of the day, it’s all about the Jay’s. Last night, Tatum was clanging everything down the stretch and making poor decisions. There is, unfortunately, a ton of pressure on him to play at a consistently elite level.
Didn't NYK give up a 1st and a 2nd? My guess is even if the Cs were in on Hart, the reasons they didn't outbid NYK were: (1) a career .347 3P shooter, some articles said that Hart was reluctant to shoot 3Ps, which would not fit in with JMazz (though he's shooting .591 from 2.4 3P attempts per game since he's joined the NYK, which makes him a completely different player); (2) he's somewhat injury prone; (and 3) the Cs probably weren't going to pay the taxes to keep him next year.
Great pickup for NYK though.