2015 Colts: Karma Chameleon

[singaporesoxfan]

 
That's a pretty huge strawman you are building.
 
What people have pointed out is that non-public injury information is extremely valuable to gamblers.  Why would the NFL want to create a system that encourages gamblers to seek out that information from teams?
 
You can believe whatever you want, but the requirement to report injuries predates fantasy football.

 
To add some specificity to your points: the injury report dates all the way from 1947, when then-Commissioner Bert Bell made it mandatory. Given that Bell spent so much time as commissioner fighting match-fixing and gambling in the NFL, and given that the requirement of a mandatory injury report came in the wake of the 1946 championship game fixing scandal, it's not hard to see how this was part of an anti-gambling measure, which explains the strong "integrity of the game" language around the injury report section of the rulebook.

 

[singaporesoxfan]

ARS, I'm just trying to point out that while insider injury information may be valuable, so is a bunch of other information coaches and teams regularly have that they could sell to the highest bidder if they were so inclined. It's particularly valuable to fantasy football however, as we learned just a few weeks ago. 
 
I still don't get why this would be a big issue in football, but not so much in all the other major sports. Then again, I don't really know the first thing about sports betting so maybe it is bigger than I imagine.

 
It's a big issue in the context of football's history, where the major gambling-related scandal (the attempt to fix the 1946 championship) led to a whole host of moves by Bell - not just the injury report - to promote transparency.
 
On a related note, Bell also campaigned to make match-fixing illegal in every NFL state. In 1949, Pennsylvania finally made it illegal to bribe an athlete. In other words, the mandatory injury report actually predates nation-wide bribery laws.

 

[Van Everyman]

Three options as I see it:
 
1) League Office: "See? We treat every team with the same righteous indignation we treat the Patriots!"
2) Pats/Lombardi-type: "Psst, Chandler Jones actually heard Luck's ribs shatter, yet it seems odd that nothing is on the injury report."
3) League Office: "This is actually about the integrity of the game! No seriously!"

 
 

 
It's a big issue in the context of football's history, where the major gambling-related scandal (the attempt to fix the 1946 championship) led to a whole host of moves by Bell - not just the injury report - to promote transparency.
 
On a related note, Bell also campaigned to make match-fixing illegal in every NFL state. In 1949, Pennsylvania finally made it illegal to bribe an athlete. In other words, the mandatory injury report actually predates nation-wide bribery laws.

So #3 then. 
 
Seriously, those posts help explain a lot, singaporesoxfan. Thanks for sharing. They also help explain why Goodell does such a horrible disservice to the actual integrity of the game by invoking it under such ridiculous circumstances as he did during #DFG for little reason other than to grasp as much power as possible as commissioner under the CBA.

 

[Leather]

Similar to Deflategate except for the whole culpability angle.
 
The analogue would be if the Colts were going to be docked draft picks because the injury report got wet and Luck's name was inadvertently erased.

 

[pappymojo]

I am not joking at all when I say that I love how every stupid insignificant thing is now a full blown crisis for the league.  I want Andrew Luck to have to hold a press conference to explain what he knew about his rib injury. 

 

[GeorgeCostanza]

I want Andrew Luck to have to hold a press conference to explain what he knew about his rib injury.

And when he knew it, of course.

 

[Gunfighter 09]

The Colts only way out, assuming the league office is in anyway interested in fairness or the "integrity of the game" is for Luck to say that he hid the injury from the team, correct?
 
If the team had any knowledge, the league has to penalize them and any members of the organization that knew. I think the best comparison is the Ray Farmer getting suspended in Cleveland for texting to the sideline during a game. If he got 4 games for that, Grigson has to be looking at something north of that for knowingly releasing a false injury report.

 

[mwonow]

For sure, Luck would be more than "generally aware" of having broken ribs...

 

[MuppetAsteriskTalk]

Would be a more fitting punishment to force the Colts to extend Grigson.  

 

[E5 Yaz]

 
You really expect Vince McMahon to show up any minute to join these two

 

[LogansDad]

And when he knew it, of course.

I just want to know if he wants to apologize to his fans.

 

[tims4wins]

"do you consider yourself a cheater"

 

[dcmissle]

15 mins ago on DC sports radio --

Expressing delight how those "bitches" up in Baltimore and out in Indy are looking at smoldering ruins of seasons after conspiring vs Pats in DFG. "delicious"

They will lol if Grigson gets canned over Luck injury shenanigans, which are assumed to be "a Belichick move"

 

[dbn]

They should test Brady's ribs as a baseline. If some of them are also a bit bruise-y, they should stop testing them immediately, of course, because not enough time.

 

[Al Zarilla]

Tony Kornheiser on PTI said the Colts should be fined all the money allowed for that infraction and the money should be given to Tom Brady. Wilbon, of course, took the other side (why should a team have to report about injuries).

 

[Jnai]

Is there any chance that Andrew Luck is running a side thing with a gambling operation? Virtually the only reason to hide an injury is to use it as gambling leverage. They've had a lot of backdoor covers. I think it adds up.

 

[EricFeczko]

Thinking more about this, I can see a legit reason why the NFL wants this information to be public. If there is no public disclosure, injury information becomes very valuable to gamblers, and the likelihood of financial entanglements between team employees and/or league employees with access to the information and bookies, sharps, etc increases. Understanable that the league would be concerned about that issue.

That makes sense to me. The NFL wants information regarding injuries to be public, so that no individual has a particular advantage, regardless of whether the injury prevents the player from playing.

What I still don't understand is why Grigson/Irsay/Pagano/???? would leave Luck off if he was hurt. Unless he/they had some big bet against their own team, there's no rational motive.

 

[Al Zarilla]

Is there any chance that Andrew Luck is running a side thing with a gambling operation? Virtually the only reason to hide an injury is to use it as gambling leverage. They've had a lot of backdoor covers. I think it adds up.

I think if Luck found a $100 bill on the street, he'd spend time trying to find out who lost it. He's as above board a player as there is. You were kidding though, right?

 

[dcmissle]

Because they don't want his ribs targeted ... A target rich zone because that's basically the only place you can hit a QB and not get flagged for it.

 

[Ed Hillel]

Belichick was asked about injury reports today and spoke about how difficult they can be as a coach because each situation is unique and fluid. He out and said the reports were for gambling, which I thought was funny.

 

[Jnai]

I think if Luck found a $100 bill on the street, he'd spend time trying to find out who lost it. He's as above board a player as there is. You were kidding though, right?

Yes? Obviously? This sideshow bullshit is absurd. Just play football.

 

[snowmanny]

The really really bad thing about owners/GMs using drugs is that it makes them vulnerable to exploitation by really really bad people who are involved in gambling.

This is all very very suspicious and extremely serious. Somebody made money of this inside knowledge. The safest move for the league - in terms of protecting the integrity of the game - is to give the Colts the death penalty.

 

[GeorgeCostanza]

Because they don't want his ribs targeted ... A target rich zone because that's basically the only place you can hit a QB and not get flagged for it.

Bingo. Watch that gif someone posted earlier. Just a light pat on the sternum caused him to wince in what looked like quite a bit of pain.

 

[soxfan121]

https://twitter.com/pepsi/status/661347737372336128

 

[DJnVa]

Shake it up? It's soda.

 

[Harry Hooper]

 
The path is actually pretty clear.
 
Let's say that in our parallel universe where injuries are not required to be reported, someone on a coaching staff is providing information about injuries to gamblers.  Do you think this person is doing it as an act of charity? Or because they are getting paid for their information?  (Answer:  they are getting paid.)
 
During the course of each season, every player is dinged up.  Just the nature of the game.  There are times when players will want to take a risk with their health to play and the coaches have to step in and prevent players from doing harm to themselves for the long-term good of the team.  But what if the motivation of the one coach is not to protect the long-term interests of the team?  What it he knows that if he can persuade other coaches or a key player that no matter how that player feels, he needs to sit out this next game because it's more important to get him back to good health than playing?  And what if that information finds it's way to gamblers before the public knows about it?
 
In this scenario, the players that take the field are giving it their all, but it's not accurate to say that the competition is unchanged.  And this is just one of any number of scenarios I can think of where an insider (like a position coach, who is important but not making tons of money) can compromise the on-field competition without needing to enroll players in his scheme.

 
And yet, in the parallel universe where the NFL didn't get into this injury report business, the average fan would quickly realize some guys have "inside" info that others don't, and betting interest would evaporate to a huge extent. The flow of $ to gambling operations wouldn't be there to in turn bribe coaches. 

 

[GeorgeCostanza]

https://twitter.com/pepsi/status/661347737372336128

Dude has some pretty sweet locks. As a bald man, I am jealous.

 

[Captaincoop]

Is there any chance that Andrew Luck is running a side thing with a gambling operation? Virtually the only reason to hide an injury is to use it as gambling leverage. They've had a lot of backdoor covers. I think it adds up.

Should probably review every email and text he's ever sent. If he's used the expression "I bet..." that's the proof we need to suspend him.

 

[Rough Carrigan]

https://twitter.com/pepsi/status/661347737372336128

Tom Brady was right.  The stuff is poison.  Look at the spastic convulsions that professional athlete suffered after just a few sips.

 

[riboflav]

Luck - 55 picks and 70 total turnovers in 54 NFL games. (in the post-2004 era)
 
EDIT - 55 INTs, not 59.

 

[GeorgeCostanza]

Luck - 59 picks and 70 total turnovers in 54 NFL games. (in the post-2004 era)

Wow. That's breathtakingly poor. And he's seriously trending in the wrong direction.

 

[mwonow]

Is there any chance that Andrew Luck is running a side thing with a gambling operation? Virtually the only reason to hide an injury is to use it as gambling leverage. They've had a lot of backdoor covers. I think it adds up.

 
 

The really really bad thing about owners/GMs using drugs is that it makes them vulnerable to exploitation by really really bad people who are involved in gambling.

This is all very very suspicious and extremely serious. Somebody made money of this inside knowledge. The safest move for the league - in terms of protecting the integrity of the game - is to give the Colts the death penalty.

 
 
I read all of this on the Internet, and it hasn't been retracted. Therefore, it must be true. The Colts are in league with Gamblers, and Luck is involved. Lifetime bans for all are being considered. Pass it on...!

 

[Average Reds]

 
And yet, in the parallel universe where the NFL didn't get into this injury report business, the average fan would quickly realize some guys have "inside" info that others don't, and betting interest would evaporate to a huge extent. The flow of $ to gambling operations wouldn't be there to in turn bribe coaches. 

 
To believe this, you would have to ignore the fact that we've already had numerous scandals where we learned that games (pro and amateur across a number of sports) have been rigged and none of these appear to have had an impact on the public's insatiable appetite for betting.

 

[BaseballJones]

Wow. That's breathtakingly poor. And he's seriously trending in the wrong direction.

 
2012:  16 g, 18 int, 10 fum (1.75/g)
2013:  16 g, 9 int, 6 fum (0.94/g)
2014:  16 g, 16 int, 13 fum (1.81/g)
2015:  6 g, 12 int, 3 fum (2.50/g)
 
That means he's coughed the ball up 87 times in 54 games (1.61/g).  Obviously, not all the fumbles have resulted in turnovers, but yikes.
 
Contrast that with Brady over the same time frame:
 
2012:  16 g, 8 int, 2 fum (0.63/g)
2013:  16 g, 11 int, 6 fum (1.06/g)
2014:  16 g, 9 int, 10 fum (1.19/g)
2015:  7 g, 1 int, 3 fum (0.57/g)
 
Brady has coughed the ball up 50 times in 55 games (0.91/g).  A little more than half the amount that Luck has.  

 

[CoffeeNerdness]

 
Gregg Doyel
Verified account 8 hours ago
I just asked Andrew Luck: Did you break ribs this year? He said: "I don't know. I'm not going to get into that right now."

 
The sharks are circling. Nice job, Grigson.

 

[dcmissle]

This is orobably very simple, as noted yesterday. Ribs -- the broken ones -- may not have been referenced on injury reports because opponents would attempt to break them further

That is understandable, but rules are rules. Hilarious if Doyel and Kravitz lead the charge.

And they may, but not for altruistic reasons. They are smart enough to understand that Grigson needs to go.

 

[pappymojo]

This is orobably very simple, as noted yesterday. Ribs -- the broken ones -- may not have been referenced on injury reports because opponents would attempt to break them further

 
The thing is that it would be hard not to tackle a QB at the ribs. 

 

[Leather]

 
The thing is that it would be hard not to tackle a QB at the ribs. 

 
Ya, well, that's why roster depth, including a good OL and decent backup QB, are important, and thems the breaks (no pun intended) if you construct a top-heavy roster.
 
Not saying you are making the argument, but the justification that "Well, we wanted to prevent targeting!" holds no water.   Play him, hold him out, or "cheat" the injury report.  Those are your options.  Tough shit.

 

[DJnVa]

I heard on radio this morning that the Colts are the first team to lose a game after leading in OT.

 

[dcmissle]

Wow. That's breathtakingly poor. And he's seriously trending in the wrong direction.

We may well have seen this movie before. Filmed in the same locale. I think 4 or 5 years into Peyton, he was seriously bad on TD/INT ratio and, of course, had not won the big one.

This is not a very good team and has not been since Luck went there. Pundits and talking heads were way over their skis after last offseason.

Luck seems to be hurt. He has serious issues from the neck up with regard to trying to do too much to compensate for talent disparities. But at least he realizes it, and there is good reason to expect he'll get his arms around it.

 

[Hagios]

 
The thing is that it would be hard not to tackle a QB at the ribs. 

 
On the face of it there isn't much incentive to lie about a rib injury. But I think the incentive comes in on the grey-area plays - those times where a pass rusher gets close to the QB but he gets the ball away in time. Are you close enough to hit him and take him to the ground? It's a grey area because you don't want a penalty for a late hit, but a player might push it if he knows the opposing QB as a rib injury.

 

[rodderick]

I just love that some Colts fans, who for years whined about Belichick cheating with the injury reports, are now saying there's nothing to this story, since no advantage can be gained.

 

[Saints Rest]

We may well have seen this movie before. Filmed in the same locale. I think 4 or 5 years into Peyton, he was seriously bad on TD/INT ratio and, of course, had not won the big one.

This is not a very good team and has not been since Luck went there. Pundits and talking heads were way over their skis after last offseason.

Luck seems to be hurt. He has serious issues from the neck up with regard to trying to do too much to compensate for talent disparities. But at least he realizes it, and there is good reason to expect he'll get his arms around it.

During the Pats/Colts game, the commentators talked about Luck's throwing motion and his various overthrows (a lot of throws high) in trying to relate that to his (alleged) shoulder woes.  It seemed to my untrained eye that night and again last night, that he seemed to be aiming the ball and almost flipping it, rather than throwing it.  Almost reminded me of Keith Foulke's unorthodox delivery motion.  Did anyone else notice this?

 

[DJnVa]

http://www.indystar.com/story/sports/columnists/gregg-doyel/2015/11/03/doyel-colts-have-become-exercise-insanity/74893450/

 

[tims4wins]

I heard on radio this morning that the Colts are the first team to lose a game after leading in OT.

 
Can someone PLEASE shop this onto one of their banners. I am begging.

 

[bakahump]

OT Participant.

 

[Omar's Wacky Neighbor]

OT Participant.

You have to look for the positives:  OT Runner Up

 

[amarshal2]

I heard on radio this morning that the Colts are the first team to lose a game after leading in OT.

 
Some were wondering about the EV of a FG on the first drive in the Week 8 game thread.  I asked if a team had ever lost after kicking that first FG because I couldn't remember anybody doing it.  I guess we have our answer.
 
Congrats Colts Nation!
 
god, country, and the record breaking Colts

 

[kartvelo]

Of course, the difference between this and DG is that, in this case, someone actually did something wrong.

 

[simplyeric]

I'd love to be there for the next owner's meeting where Kraft gets up and FINALLY get to go nuclear on Goodell and the Colts. Demanding first round draft picks, fines and suspension for the coach, suspension of Luck, and of course they'd have to vacate their recent 'Overtime Runner-up' title.

Oh, and: libel suit!

Ok I dont actually believe Kraft will do this. But man it would be great if he did.