Mullen looks fine to me at this point, but it's probably too late for him. Brian at MGoBlog promised a coaching candidate post if they lost today, so yay?
2014 Michigan Football: Dammit Jim, we need a Harbaugh. And a miracle worker.
- Thread starter WayBackVazquez
- Start date
I don't like Hoke anymore either. I didn't watch the game. I heard about what happened. I'm ashamed and embarrassed. We're not even talking about the result of the game here. We're talking about the well being of a student athlete. How can you trust thing guy as a parent of a recruit?
My tank is extremely low.
My tank is extremely low.
Just got back into town and saw the news. Words escape me. They weren't even competitive between the 20s, like they were before. Hoke must be losing this team.
Dgilpin said:
DukeSox said:
sachmoney said:
riboflav said:
Do you know why Morris went back in the game?
Because Russell fucking Bellomy, the third-string QB, wasn't paying attention and coudn't find his helmut. And rather than calling a timeout, Hoke, who wasn't paying attention either, let an injured player go back in the game.
The TV cameras were paying attention enough to a) diagnose that Morris was injured, b) conclude that he shouldn't be going back in the game, c) identify that an alternative QB needed to enter because of Gardner's helmut coming off, d) locate Bellomy on the sidelines within seconds, and then e) keep the camera on Bellomy as he tried on not one, not two, but three different helmuts before finding his own... after Morris entered the game.
Russell fucking Bellomy.
Brady fucking Hoke.
Neither of whom was paying attention to the on-field play.
Unacceptable on so many levels.
RapSheet reporting this morning that his "sources" are indicating that Michigan prefers John over Jim. Sleaze vs. hyperintensity... pick your poison, Michigan.
Dick Pole Upside said:
It's nice to want things.
Anyway, the handling of the concussion should absolutely be the last straw for Hoke.
How is John the "sleaze?" It wasn't his decision to keep Ray Rice on his team.Dick Pole Upside said:
Michigan will have to stump up a lot of cash for the new coach, especially if it's a Harbaugh. Are you guys comfortable with that?
I don't see why either Harbaugh would come to be honest. John is a well respected NFL coach, with a Super Bowl ring, and a team/fanbase that seems to like him. Jim's a lunatic, but he's made it pretty clear he likes the NFL, even if he doesn't get along with 49ers ownership. Crazy or not, he'll be offered a few jobs this offseason if he wants to leave.sachmoney said:
I have that same sick feeling I did when RichRod was early in his first season and it became apparent that the Wolverines were in danger of their first losing season in 40 years.
Blown out at home against a team that shouldn't be that close. I'm not trying to sound arrogant. College football is unlike most sports - there's a built-in recruiting advantage with the Michigan brand. Access to better athletes than Minnesota. Is it fair? No. But it's brand that Brandon and Hoke must protect.
This was the year that we were supposed to feel secure that Hoke had his recruits in place, and could implement systems that had control over the line of scrimmage along with that pro style that sent so many Michigan quarterbacks into the NFL - the last of whom under Lloyd Carr is still a somewhat viable NFL backup.
If the best choice is an NFL coach with Ann Arbor ties, money isn't an object. Because the brand itself is worth so much that you anchor it with the best choice no matter what. Ohio State did what it had to do with Urban Meyer.
I liked the Hoke choice as much as I hated the RichRod choice. But it seems both choices were bad ones. At least the next coach has some material to work with, but apparently nothing at quarterback.
Blown out at home against a team that shouldn't be that close. I'm not trying to sound arrogant. College football is unlike most sports - there's a built-in recruiting advantage with the Michigan brand. Access to better athletes than Minnesota. Is it fair? No. But it's brand that Brandon and Hoke must protect.
This was the year that we were supposed to feel secure that Hoke had his recruits in place, and could implement systems that had control over the line of scrimmage along with that pro style that sent so many Michigan quarterbacks into the NFL - the last of whom under Lloyd Carr is still a somewhat viable NFL backup.
If the best choice is an NFL coach with Ann Arbor ties, money isn't an object. Because the brand itself is worth so much that you anchor it with the best choice no matter what. Ohio State did what it had to do with Urban Meyer.
I liked the Hoke choice as much as I hated the RichRod choice. But it seems both choices were bad ones. At least the next coach has some material to work with, but apparently nothing at quarterback.
Hoke has sadly been exactly what he looked like to me when hired. A mediocre coach in over his head. But I'm curious why we think the next coach will have some material to work with? Doesn't it seem likely we're going to have a pretty big exodus of talent when Hoke is fired?Chemistry Schmemistry said:
I don't think either is likely either.bowiac said:
Eh, possibly, but if we do get a big name, than may be players will be excited/reinvigorated? May be? I don't know.bowiac said:
Well, you saw what I didn't. Perhaps I was looking too hard for someone who walked the Schembechler walk and talked the Schembechler talk. Hoke welcomed Denard Robinson and worked pretty well with him. RichRod ran Mallett off the reservation without as much as "hello". I thought there were significant differences.
A good coach can win with different players. A good Hoke replacement will talk to Jabrill Peppers, who is a huge Hoke fan, and make him a huge new coach fan. I do think Hoke is a good guy. He won't trash the team on the way out. He understands. He has seven games to magically create a team that can beat Ohio State and look convincing doing it.
bowiac said:
Well, you saw what I didn't. Perhaps I was looking too hard for someone who walked the Schembechler walk and talked the Schembechler talk. Hoke welcomed Denard Robinson and worked pretty well with him. RichRod ran Mallett off the reservation without as much as "hello". I thought there were significant differences.
A good coach can win with different players. A good Hoke replacement will talk to Jabrill Peppers, who is a huge Hoke fan, and make him a huge new coach fan. I do think Hoke is a good guy. He won't trash the team on the way out. He understands. He has seven games to magically create a team that can beat Ohio State and look convincing doing it.
As WayBackVasquez loves to point out, I've only been a fan for a bit (~2008), so Schembechler is mostly just an idea for me. And while I did happen to get Hoke right (#422), I'm pretty sure I'd also have loved the RichRod hire.Chemistry Schmemistry said:
I don't think Hoke will trash the team on the way out, but moreso than usual it seems, the current players are here because they and their parents liked Hoke personally. That makes me think there's going to be a lot of turnover, as the personal connection is gone, and they're not offering a good product on the field either.Chemistry Schmemistry said:
But I don't know. Like I said, I've only been a fan for a bit, so maybe recovering quickly this more possible than it seems. To me, it seems like this is a going to take years.
Please expand on this, preferably with citation to some kind of authority. In particular, explain whether "usual" refers to all colleges of Michigan specifically. That is, did Hoke attract his recruits with his raw animal magnetism, while his predecessors mostly wooed kids with the weather and Zingerman's? Or is Hoke's singular charisma responsible for bringing recruits to godforsaken Michigan while most coaches at other schools get to rely on tradition, history, academic excellence, etc.? Thanks in advance.bowiac said:
Thought this was a pretty interesting article from Dan Wetzel:
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/where-does-michigan-go-from-here-034153283-ncaaf.html
My disdain for John stems from the fact that I don't buy the revised story of him wanting to cut Rice. I just don't. Add on the longstanding Lewis exaltation, the 5 offseason arrests, etc., I just don't think he's good for Michigan right now. That and I consider him more similar in style to Hoke as a Head Coach (delegator, not an X's and O's guy) in comparison to Jim.
Edit: re the concerns about a mass exodus when Hoke gets canned due to some perceived unique loyalty to "Uncle Brady".... The incoming class will get dinged, but it's a small class anyway. The current freshmen (especially Peppers, Cole, and Mone, IMO) will need some attention to make sure they don't flee. Other than that, you're talking about kids that will have two or more years invested in Michigan. Unless they are seniors this year with another year of eligibility, I don't think the juniors and underclassmen will transfer, lose a year, and then possibly sit at their next destination if they're underdeveloped under the current staff. The current RS Freshman, RS Sophomores, and true sophomores include some good, underdeveloped talent. A good coach could come in and turn this around quickly with this crew. But they need to find a QB from one of Speight, Malzone, or Mystery Recruit X... Morris doesn't have it.
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/where-does-michigan-go-from-here-034153283-ncaaf.html
My disdain for John stems from the fact that I don't buy the revised story of him wanting to cut Rice. I just don't. Add on the longstanding Lewis exaltation, the 5 offseason arrests, etc., I just don't think he's good for Michigan right now. That and I consider him more similar in style to Hoke as a Head Coach (delegator, not an X's and O's guy) in comparison to Jim.
Edit: re the concerns about a mass exodus when Hoke gets canned due to some perceived unique loyalty to "Uncle Brady".... The incoming class will get dinged, but it's a small class anyway. The current freshmen (especially Peppers, Cole, and Mone, IMO) will need some attention to make sure they don't flee. Other than that, you're talking about kids that will have two or more years invested in Michigan. Unless they are seniors this year with another year of eligibility, I don't think the juniors and underclassmen will transfer, lose a year, and then possibly sit at their next destination if they're underdeveloped under the current staff. The current RS Freshman, RS Sophomores, and true sophomores include some good, underdeveloped talent. A good coach could come in and turn this around quickly with this crew. But they need to find a QB from one of Speight, Malzone, or Mystery Recruit X... Morris doesn't have it.
I got bad news for you. When I said "it seems", I meant I was relying on my sense, rather than any citable authority. It comes from following recruiting with some closeness for a few years, and speaking with other Michigan fans who have been following for longer. I don't think my sense is all that unusual, but I could be wrong. If you disagree, that's fine.WayBackVazquez said:
Great, so you're pulling it out of your ass. But that only answers part of my question. More than usual for Michigan coaches, or more than usual for college recruiting in general?
It's rare to lose players unless they either:
A) Lose playing time
B) A scheme changes to one that features them less
or
C) They've only signed an LoI, and that can apply to any assistant who recruited them as well
C is the real problem here. From Jabrill Peppers' comments, I would agree that this is something to worry about with Chris Clark in particular. And Clark is a guy who will make an immediate impact with the offense.
However, nothing other than the QB situation matters right now. I think everything else will fall into place if (and it's a big if) Michigan has a QB.
A) Lose playing time
B) A scheme changes to one that features them less
or
C) They've only signed an LoI, and that can apply to any assistant who recruited them as well
C is the real problem here. From Jabrill Peppers' comments, I would agree that this is something to worry about with Chris Clark in particular. And Clark is a guy who will make an immediate impact with the offense.
However, nothing other than the QB situation matters right now. I think everything else will fall into place if (and it's a big if) Michigan has a QB.
I'm really looking forward to watching Hoke duck, dodge, dip, dive, and dodge questions about Morris at his press conference today.
Well, he was a consensus three star at a position where recruiting stars have the most predictive impact. That's not a great sign.twibnotes said:
I'm not sure a good talent development elsewhere and good coaching couldn't "manufacture" a QB. QB is the most important position, but if the rest of the talent is there, is getting Morris up to "game manager" levels so crazy?
I apologize in advance for the long post.
Wow, just a lot to process since Saturday. First and foremost, although I want to stay calm about the Morris fiasco, I can't. It really was inexcusable by Hoke and the BS coverup following the game didn't make it better. If DB wasn't so incompetent, I would place the odds that Hoke is fired today at 50%. But, DB is a clown, so I'd put it lower than that, but not 0%. Personally, if Mattison agreed to take over as HC, I'd give it to him first, and if not, I'd give it to Nuss. If he's too busy with the offense, I might reach outside the current coaches (whither Carr??) to right the ship similar to Barry Alvarez with Wisco (not exactly the same, I know - if DB names himself interim HC, god help us all).
As to the discussion about recruiting, a lot will depend on whether Hoke finishes the season or not. I think we can all agree he doesn't make it past the Monday following OSU, but the situation has deteriorated to the point that an in-season firing is a very real, if not likely, possibility. The situation is made far worse by the fact that DB's seat is nearly as hot as Hoke's. The bigger question (than Hoke) IMHO, is whether DB is allowed to make this next hire or not. Although DB has done well by the Athletic Dept. generally (bball is doing well, other non-revenue sports are also doing well, facilities have been upgraded all around, etc.), its engine is clearly footbaw and he's damaged the brand substantially since taking over. Michigan should be looking to open the purse and hire a can't-miss coach to suture this gaping wound the program currently has. That would mean something along the lines of a Harbaugh, Miles, etc. If someone of that stature came in, there would be some transfers, but overall the program would be OK. If Michigan brings in anything less (e.g. successful MAC HC, solid but unproven SEC Coordinator), then we will see some personnel losses and more of a 'reset' situation.
When RR was first fired, I was relieved. We would finally have a coach who cared about both sides of the ball again. After I read 3 and Out, I really felt bad for RR. He wasn't without blame, but I thought he got a raw deal from the UM Football family. The past couple of seasons made me realize how valuable RR could be in a positive situation - stick him with a hotshot DC, let him continue to do his thing on offense, and you would be in good shape. But, the past weekend really made me miss just feeling good about this program more than anything. I arrived at Michigan in '04, and promptly saw a shared big 10 title, Braylon, Hart, Henne, Long, and a slew of other NFLers. I took this for granted. '05 was a plagued year because of injuries. Then, '06 was a true gift, having the privilege of watching that defense, which had Branch, Graham, Harris, Hall, Woodley, Crable, Burgess, etc. just demolish opponents brought a level of excitement surpassing '04 for me. '07 was the year of The Horror, but the team also went 9-4 with the very positive memory of beating Florida in a bowl game and Lloyd going out on the shoulders of his players. For those of you keeping track, I'm basically in year 10 of my Michigan fandom. I have seen good teams win championships, and I have followed closely as the program hiccuped along a downward trajectory.
In sum, it is hard to accurately describe what it's been like to be a fan of this program. I caught the dawn of an era, a rough change of course that delivered on some promise before drastically changing course again, and has now hit some nasty rocks. Whether this team gets a new captain and steers away from the danger quickly, or whether it has to turn slowly away from the rocks and eventually find its way back out to safety I don't know. Frankly, I don't even know how I landed on this lame metaphor. But, I know there's a lot of people who still care passionately about this program, but don't know how the people in charge let it get so bad and for the first time in my experience, I am sincerely concerned about fading into obscurity. While there have been embarassing moments these past few years, they were embarassing precisely because they were so far from the expectations. If the expectations are lowered, I wonder, and fear, what the future holds for this program.
Wow, just a lot to process since Saturday. First and foremost, although I want to stay calm about the Morris fiasco, I can't. It really was inexcusable by Hoke and the BS coverup following the game didn't make it better. If DB wasn't so incompetent, I would place the odds that Hoke is fired today at 50%. But, DB is a clown, so I'd put it lower than that, but not 0%. Personally, if Mattison agreed to take over as HC, I'd give it to him first, and if not, I'd give it to Nuss. If he's too busy with the offense, I might reach outside the current coaches (whither Carr??) to right the ship similar to Barry Alvarez with Wisco (not exactly the same, I know - if DB names himself interim HC, god help us all).
As to the discussion about recruiting, a lot will depend on whether Hoke finishes the season or not. I think we can all agree he doesn't make it past the Monday following OSU, but the situation has deteriorated to the point that an in-season firing is a very real, if not likely, possibility. The situation is made far worse by the fact that DB's seat is nearly as hot as Hoke's. The bigger question (than Hoke) IMHO, is whether DB is allowed to make this next hire or not. Although DB has done well by the Athletic Dept. generally (bball is doing well, other non-revenue sports are also doing well, facilities have been upgraded all around, etc.), its engine is clearly footbaw and he's damaged the brand substantially since taking over. Michigan should be looking to open the purse and hire a can't-miss coach to suture this gaping wound the program currently has. That would mean something along the lines of a Harbaugh, Miles, etc. If someone of that stature came in, there would be some transfers, but overall the program would be OK. If Michigan brings in anything less (e.g. successful MAC HC, solid but unproven SEC Coordinator), then we will see some personnel losses and more of a 'reset' situation.
When RR was first fired, I was relieved. We would finally have a coach who cared about both sides of the ball again. After I read 3 and Out, I really felt bad for RR. He wasn't without blame, but I thought he got a raw deal from the UM Football family. The past couple of seasons made me realize how valuable RR could be in a positive situation - stick him with a hotshot DC, let him continue to do his thing on offense, and you would be in good shape. But, the past weekend really made me miss just feeling good about this program more than anything. I arrived at Michigan in '04, and promptly saw a shared big 10 title, Braylon, Hart, Henne, Long, and a slew of other NFLers. I took this for granted. '05 was a plagued year because of injuries. Then, '06 was a true gift, having the privilege of watching that defense, which had Branch, Graham, Harris, Hall, Woodley, Crable, Burgess, etc. just demolish opponents brought a level of excitement surpassing '04 for me. '07 was the year of The Horror, but the team also went 9-4 with the very positive memory of beating Florida in a bowl game and Lloyd going out on the shoulders of his players. For those of you keeping track, I'm basically in year 10 of my Michigan fandom. I have seen good teams win championships, and I have followed closely as the program hiccuped along a downward trajectory.
In sum, it is hard to accurately describe what it's been like to be a fan of this program. I caught the dawn of an era, a rough change of course that delivered on some promise before drastically changing course again, and has now hit some nasty rocks. Whether this team gets a new captain and steers away from the danger quickly, or whether it has to turn slowly away from the rocks and eventually find its way back out to safety I don't know. Frankly, I don't even know how I landed on this lame metaphor. But, I know there's a lot of people who still care passionately about this program, but don't know how the people in charge let it get so bad and for the first time in my experience, I am sincerely concerned about fading into obscurity. While there have been embarassing moments these past few years, they were embarassing precisely because they were so far from the expectations. If the expectations are lowered, I wonder, and fear, what the future holds for this program.
Espn liked him more, and he did miss a lot of time with an injury. Hopefully he's better than his perceived value (ie, the opposite of what Morris may be).bowiac said:
In the end, I'm a big believer that in college coaching is a massive factor in qb play. Put the kid in a position to excel with his particular skill set.
I'm beginning to feel sorry for you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=cPxPSzz0LBY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=cPxPSzz0LBY
I feel bad for UM fans. It's one thing to put a crap product on the field, quite another to have your coach make indefensible decisions. It sucks when the institutions you root for let you down, basically.
Best part of the press conference today was a reporter asking if Hoke would consider wearing a headset in the future, so he could be better apprised of injury situations.Old Fart Tree said:
It seems hard to imagine Hoke lasts the season, but I guess the Brandon situation might force that.
You need look no further than Bill O'Brien and Matt McGloin to agree with this.twibnotes said:
This feels a bit different. McGloin is in the NFL today, getting snaps in actual games for the Raiders. It looks like less of a "put a kid in a position to succeed", and more of a "identify talent when you see it" thing with him.SoxJox said:
I watched about two minutes of Hoke at his press conference today responding to questions about his handling of the Shane Morris incident. He was extremely evasive and looked to place blame everywhere except where it belongs, which is with him as head coach.
This Michigan alum is appalled and embarrassed that we have this clown as head football coach.
http://deadspin.com/brady-hokes-dangerous-incompetence-so-bad-espn-announce-1640003412/1640408092/+bubbaprog
This Michigan alum is appalled and embarrassed that we have this clown as head football coach.
http://deadspin.com/brady-hokes-dangerous-incompetence-so-bad-espn-announce-1640003412/1640408092/+bubbaprog
I'd prefer that Hoke take more responsibility for what happened to Morris. I think he's done a good job defending himself. Which makes him no different from RichRod. I hate RichRod.
Does anyone who saw that sequence of plays really think that a 20-year-old kid making his first college start should have been out there for each one of them?
My other main frustration. Doug Nussmeier is a former NFL quarterback. He has moved up the coaching ranks quickly. This is his fourth OC gig in seven seasons. He is clearly going to be a head coach if he succeeds here. How is it that we've had such rotten quarterback play this season from two fairly good prospects? They regress. Now it's entirely possible that they can't be coached up, but it makes me wonder if Nussmeier is another RichRod one-trick-pony type who has gotten very lucky in his career track.
There's no way Funchess finishes the season alive. Gardner locks on and lobs softballs into traffic for him. Safeties live for this stuff.
Does anyone who saw that sequence of plays really think that a 20-year-old kid making his first college start should have been out there for each one of them?
My other main frustration. Doug Nussmeier is a former NFL quarterback. He has moved up the coaching ranks quickly. This is his fourth OC gig in seven seasons. He is clearly going to be a head coach if he succeeds here. How is it that we've had such rotten quarterback play this season from two fairly good prospects? They regress. Now it's entirely possible that they can't be coached up, but it makes me wonder if Nussmeier is another RichRod one-trick-pony type who has gotten very lucky in his career track.
There's no way Funchess finishes the season alive. Gardner locks on and lobs softballs into traffic for him. Safeties live for this stuff.
canderson said:
Why would Miles take the Michigan job? I have to imagine LSU will find a way to match the dollars.
Their best bet for a marquee coach is one of the Harbaugh brothers, but it would be hard for any college to hire John after what has happened the past few weeks (though I think that's unfair), and Jim reportedly wasn't interested the last time the job was open.
maufman said:
Because believe it or not, there are some people who would prefer to coach at Michigan than LSU. Especially when they are alumni.
Well, now that "a source" says the AD hunt is on, anyone want to weigh in which AD candidate is preferable? I don't know anything about either of them, but UConn seems to have been better run than BC lately...?
Edit - or not.
Edit - or not.
It's both. I'm married to a penn stater and have seen mcgloin play a fair amount. He's not a guy with any outstanding skills, but Obrien taught him to make good decisions and enabled him to make throws he was comfortable making. Most importantly, mcgloin improved significantly. Hoke's qbs get worse.bowiac said:
Could the topic title be changed to - "2014 Michigan Football: 109,901 angry fans in need of a quarterback and a new head coach"? Or just something that doesn't claim we've solved our offensive woes.
McGloin was a walk on with zero offers. I don't know if this helps Bowiac's argument as far BoB finding talent where no one else saw it versus his stars being predictive for success argument.twibnotes said:
Manuel looks like Borges. Bates looks like Mike Leach. I'll take Bates.bowiac said:
Anything else would be better.Chemistry Schmemistry said:
Hey Gene DiFlippo is available aka 'Coach Flip'bowiac said:
I'll hate to see him go but Bates has to be the choice here, Michigan Man who has done a very good job ridding the BCAA of the shit show that GDF left him with