Game 2 Mia, goats

Eck'sSneakyCheese

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Devante Parker, Juju and Kendrick Bourne are a mid tier WR core. Add Douglas and Bouttes potential and it’s not terrible. It’s far from it.

Henry and Gesicki are upper end receiving TEs.

Stevenson and Elliott are an upper end RB tandem.

Montgomery has been useful (where was he yesterday)

The skill position players are not the problem.

It’s difficult to catch the ball downfield as a receiver when it’s up in the air so long defenders have as much of a play on the ball as they do.
 

Cellar-Door

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Devante Parker, Juju and Kendrick Bourne are a mid tier WR core. Add Douglas and Bouttes potential and it’s not terrible. It’s far from it.

Henry and Gesicki are upper end receiving TEs.

Stevenson and Elliott are an upper end RB tandem.

Montgomery has been useful (where was he yesterday)

The skill position players are not the problem.

It’s difficult to catch the ball downfield as a receiver when it’s up in the air so long defenders have as much of a play on the ball as they do.
If you gave this skill position group to KC they'd still be one of the best offenses in the league. Kelce is better than our TEs sure, but we have much better WRs than KC did last year and better RBs by a ton.
 

SMU_Sox

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Devante Parker, Juju and Kendrick Bourne are a mid tier WR core. Add Douglas and Bouttes potential and it’s not terrible. It’s far from it.

Henry and Gesicki are upper end receiving TEs.

Stevenson and Elliott are an upper end RB tandem.

Montgomery has been useful (where was he yesterday)

The skill position players are not the problem.

It’s difficult to catch the ball downfield as a receiver when it’s up in the air so long defenders have as much of a play on the ball as they do.
They are a bottom third of the NFL receiving group including the TEs and probably bottom sixth. The problem is absolutely the skill position players. You won't find many roster with a worse group. Having a bunch of depth guys who don't separate isn't going to win them much.
 

SMU_Sox

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KC has an elite OL and Kelce + Reid and Mahomes. Mahome is 1 of 1. Kelce is still playing like a hall of famer. Not really a fair comparison.
 

rodderick

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If you gave this skill position group to KC they'd still be one of the best offenses in the league. Kelce is better than our TEs sure, but we have much better WRs than KC did last year and better RBs by a ton.
But that's the point it's a group built for the QB to be the difference maker, and they don't have that guy. People underestimate how hard it is to play "throw it to the open guy" ball. It probably means threading tight windows and needing to reset and make second reactions consistently because not one player there is a reliable option to win with leverage or quickness routinely. It's just a hard way to live especially when the offense has little motion and no play action.
 

8slim

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Totally agree with that last sentence. I just think the station itself is in need of more repair than Mac...
I'll always remember the epiphany I had watching the team in 1999. After one of our losses that year I was thinking "Man, if we just gave Bledsoe a much better OL, better WRs and a strong running game, then he'd really be great."

Then it dawned on me that just about any QB would be much better if they had great units surrounding them. The greats make mediocre pieces better.

Which is to say that I agree with your post upthread about Mac's ceiling. I think if all the offensive units were good, then Mac could be a playoff caliber QB. Likely not a true SB contending QB, unless the D was transcendent. But good enough for 10-11 wins and maybe a first round win.

And given the miraculous success we had for the 20 years of the BB/Brady era, I'd largely be content with that.

But this seems to be the worst of all worlds. Below average units and a QB who can't really elevate anyone else's play (although when the OL and WR units play as poorly as they did last night, no one is elevasting that aside from prime Mike Vick).
 

8slim

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On a lot of the O-line stuff, I'm curious who is making the calls, is it still Andrews? Because there are a ton of plays where guys confidently go to a block... and a guy has nobody blocking him. Couple posted here, where Andrews and Strange both seem to think the other guy has someone. The one above, Strange clearly thinks he's just giving help to both the Tackle and Andrews, sets up for it, puts a hand on the DE then tries to help back to the middle, Andrews for some reason thinks he's helping the RG? Both guys help away from the middle with a hand in the middle to "help" the other... which the DT runs right through because there is no body on him....

Though also, a quicker harder throw from Mac still gets a completion and a 1st down there likely.
I don't know how he grades out at PFF, but I've been down on Andrews since last season. I think he's nearly washed, but I'm also far from an OL expert.

Strange whiffed on at least a half-dozen plays, and that was just the ones I was paying attention to. He was atrocious.
 

PRabbit

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On defense, they aren't talented enough to contain other teams' playmakers for the whole game.
Please point to us who is actually capable of that currently. There's maybe 5 defenses through this century that could do that consistently.
 

Jungleland

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Devante Parker, Juju and Kendrick Bourne are a mid tier WR core. Add Douglas and Bouttes potential and it’s not terrible. It’s far from it.

Henry and Gesicki are upper end receiving TEs.

Stevenson and Elliott are an upper end RB tandem.

Montgomery has been useful (where was he yesterday)

The skill position players are not the problem.

It’s difficult to catch the ball downfield as a receiver when it’s up in the air so long defenders have as much of a play on the ball as they do.
This emphasizes how much more they need from the run game. 2022 Stevenson is the best weapon they have. He looks slow and the line woes are well covered here.
 

Jimbodandy

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I don't know how he grades out at PFF, but I've been down on Andrews since last season. I think he's nearly washed, but I'm also far from an OL expert.

Strange whiffed on at least a half-dozen plays, and that was just the ones I was paying attention to. He was atrocious.
FWIW, I haven't seen much of Andrews getting beaten too badly. It happens to everyone of course. Game 1 was decent guard play to my mind but weakish tackle play. Game 2 was weakish guard play and ghastly tackle play, especially Anderson. Anderson was getting help and still was awful. In normal circumstances, if we had our primary RT out for a game and the backup RT went down, I'd still expect our third string RT to play better than Anderson did last night. Maybe getting Sow back will help, but eek.
 

wilked

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Parker is supposed to win the route, he got worked.
Mac is supposed to throw it to somebody else because Parker was never even close to open.

Mac never looks anywhere else, he decided he was throwing that before he left the huddle. Both underneath guys are open, and honestly of the 5 men out on routes, Parker is the one in the worst spot.
Thanks for replying
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Sure the Offensive line is bad and the weapons are mediocre but at what point do we just realize that Mac isn't very good? 28th in the league in YPA is putrid and a lot of this has to be at his feet. He's a checkdown QB who rarely has the arm strength to challenge the intermediate sideline areas. I mean, can he even through a strong 15 yard out? When you've got a QB who can't make every throw, the offense becomes limited and predictable which is what we're now seeing with Jones. I'm skeptical that he can be anything more than a good backup in this league. The body of work isn't impressive.
Some people in this thread have already long ago concluded that, absent a perfect situation, Mac Jones isn't very good. Does it matter if that represents 50% of fans? 75%?

Why does it matter what *we* realize? I think the answer to the question you are asking is that unless he is injured or benched, Mac Jones is the Pats QB1 for the rest of the season.

He may not be very good but he's all they got so they have to figure out how to win with him, or not, and *we* have to live with it. Or not.
 

Deathofthebambino

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I made this post in April, after the draft:

Better than Gesicki? He couldn't get open with Hill and Waddle dragging defenses attention on every play. And Gesicki and Henry might actually be the worst top 2 tight ends when it comes to blocking, a huge part of their job, in the entire league. A rookie TE may not come in and drop Gronk receiving numbers, but a bunch of them aren't literal turnstiles either.

I have no idea why anyone has faith in our offensive line, and that doesn't seem to be getting any better. Then we get to wide receiver. Folks were telling me Meyers was really good, the Pats disagreed and let him walk for the same money they gave Agholor, who sucks complete ass.

We all know what's coming. Defense will play well, make plays, keep them in the game against middle tier or lower teams. Awesome, meanwhile we'll be here debating whether Mac sucks or not week in week out, as he is running for his life, hoping some retread gets open in under 5 seconds. The defense is going to be staring at short fields, because our offense can't do a damn thing.

The worst part is I love their fucking draft picks. LOVE THEM. I just have no fucking idea what the plan is to actually compete, unless it's to run our the string with Mac, build a defensive team and move on when they find a QB they like. It's a plan, I guess, but one that comes with crazy long odds in today's NFL.

I am a very, very long time season ticket holder, ill be there, ill root them on, but damn, it's 2023, not 1992. The game us different and folks simply need to look at the teams in the playoffs last year to figure out what works and what doesn't.



I'm glad that @SMU_Sox seems to be fighting the good fight in here with what I've been saying for going on 3-4 years (and even in Brady's run when they wouldn't give him help). If anyone watched that game and came with anything other than "Wow, speed makes a big difference in the NFL," then they aren't paying attention.

The Pats D was focused on not allowing deep throws. The Miami defense doesn't have to worry about that with the Pats, because well, we don't have a fucking receiver that can get 1 yard of separation anywhere on the field. So Miami takes away the deep throw just by virtue of our personnel. So they can come up and hammer our receivers a split second after a catch. Meanwhile, we're stopping the deep ball, but giving up passes underneath to guys like Hill and Waddle that can turn it up field.

And you know what Hill and Waddle do that never, ever gets discussed around here. They create fucking gravity. Do people really not understand that the reason River fucking Cracraft and Braxton Berrios and Durham Smythe are getting open and making plays is because those guys pull everyone towards them. We don't have that, so it's going to be a dink a dunk shitshow until we do. But then what happens, Miami gives up some space in the middle of the field, because they know they are going to get so much fucking pressure that Mac is going to be running for his life before he has a chance to find a guy over the middle.

Mac's arm strength is fine. The problem is he can't fucking step into a throw because he's getting pancaked on every other play. Mac threw a pick yesterday, terrible throw. You know who else picks yesterday on terrible throws, Tua, Hurts, Ridder, Burrow, Mahomes, Daniel Jones, Goff, and on and on and on, and most of those guys I just mentioned, their "teams" won those games. One bad throw or interception shouldn't doom a team to losing. Tom Brady threw 12 picks in the last 10 regular season games of 2001. The Pats went 8-2.

I'm not going to rehash this debate again, because I've been pretty clear on this topic for years. The Goats for me yesterday:

The offensive line (all of them, but special shout outs to Strange, O,wenu and Anderson). If you can't block in the passing game, you damn well better be able to block in the running game, they can't do that either.
The WR's (not because of any specific plays, although once again, would be nice to see them catch a ball that doesn't have to him them perfectly in the middle of the chest) because well, they just aren't good enough, talented enough and can't get any fucking separation.
BB, the GM, the guy should not be shopping for groceries on offense anymore, and the guy who benched Pop Douglas, the only guy with any NFL level agility and speed on the offense.

And Myles Bryant, because fuck him. And Jayhlani Tavai, who was quickly on pace to be my new Myles Bryant last night, until I think they finally benched him too.
 

Jimbodandy

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Some people in this thread have already long ago concluded that, absent a perfect situation, Mac Jones isn't very good. Does it matter if that represents 50% of fans? 75%?

Why does it matter what *we* realize? I think the answer to the question you are asking is that unless he is injured or benched, Mac Jones is the Pats QB1 for the rest of the season.

He may not be very good but he's all they got so they have to figure out how to win with him, or not, and *we* have to live with it. Or not.
Having spent the first 35 years or so as my life as a Bruins fan, the search for an easy explanation and solution to a big problem is easy to understand.

Sure if we had Patrick Mahomes, the offense would look much better. It would still have struggled last night, as BoB designed a game plan to get the ball away in record time due to the OL problems. But the WR can't separate in short space in an elite manner, so there are still struggles there too.

Personally, I think that it's the combination of things. With a trash OL and Mac Jones, the offense would look better with Hill and Waddle. But with peak Tom Brady, the offense would look great with our current WR and a better OL. It's too much. I think that 2 of the OL/Skill Positions/QB must be fixed, or it will be a struggle to score. Those who have hard-ranked QB as "the problem" won't be dissuaded of their beliefs any more than Bruins fans who think that poor team construction can be solved by firing the head coach or replacing the goalie.
 

rodderick

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I made this post in April, after the draft:

Better than Gesicki? He couldn't get open with Hill and Waddle dragging defenses attention on every play. And Gesicki and Henry might actually be the worst top 2 tight ends when it comes to blocking, a huge part of their job, in the entire league. A rookie TE may not come in and drop Gronk receiving numbers, but a bunch of them aren't literal turnstiles either.

I have no idea why anyone has faith in our offensive line, and that doesn't seem to be getting any better. Then we get to wide receiver. Folks were telling me Meyers was really good, the Pats disagreed and let him walk for the same money they gave Agholor, who sucks complete ass.

We all know what's coming. Defense will play well, make plays, keep them in the game against middle tier or lower teams. Awesome, meanwhile we'll be here debating whether Mac sucks or not week in week out, as he is running for his life, hoping some retread gets open in under 5 seconds. The defense is going to be staring at short fields, because our offense can't do a damn thing.

The worst part is I love their fucking draft picks. LOVE THEM. I just have no fucking idea what the plan is to actually compete, unless it's to run our the string with Mac, build a defensive team and move on when they find a QB they like. It's a plan, I guess, but one that comes with crazy long odds in today's NFL.

I am a very, very long time season ticket holder, ill be there, ill root them on, but damn, it's 2023, not 1992. The game us different and folks simply need to look at the teams in the playoffs last year to figure out what works and what doesn't.



I'm glad that @SMU_Sox seems to be fighting the good fight in here with what I've been saying for going on 3-4 years (and even in Brady's run when they wouldn't give him help). If anyone watched that game and came with anything other than "Wow, speed makes a big difference in the NFL," then they aren't paying attention.

The Pats D was focused on not allowing deep throws. The Miami defense doesn't have to worry about that with the Pats, because well, we don't have a fucking receiver that can get 1 yard of separation anywhere on the field. So Miami takes away the deep throw just by virtue of our personnel. So they can come up and hammer our receivers a split second after a catch. Meanwhile, we're stopping the deep ball, but giving up passes underneath to guys like Hill and Waddle that can turn it up field.

And you know what Hill and Waddle do that never, ever gets discussed around here. They create fucking gravity. Do people really not understand that the reason River fucking Cracraft and Braxton Berrios and Durham Smythe are getting open and making plays is because those guys pull everyone towards them. We don't have that, so it's going to be a dink a dunk shitshow until we do. But then what happens, Miami gives up some space in the middle of the field, because they know they are going to get so much fucking pressure that Mac is going to be running for his life before he has a chance to find a guy over the middle.

Mac's arm strength is fine. The problem is he can't fucking step into a throw because he's getting pancaked on every other play. Mac threw a pick yesterday, terrible throw. You know who else picks yesterday on terrible throws, Tua, Hurts, Ridder, Burrow, Mahomes, Daniel Jones, Goff, and on and on and on, and most of those guys I just mentioned, their "teams" won those games. One bad throw or interception shouldn't doom a team to losing. Tom Brady threw 12 picks in the last 10 regular season games of 2001. The Pats went 8-2.

I'm not going to rehash this debate again, because I've been pretty clear on this topic for years. The Goats for me yesterday:

The offensive line (all of them, but special shout outs to Strange, O,wenu and Anderson). If you can't block in the passing game, you damn well better be able to block in the running game, they can't do that either.
The WR's (not because of any specific plays, although once again, would be nice to see them catch a ball that doesn't have to him them perfectly in the middle of the chest) because well, they just aren't good enough, talented enough and can't get any fucking separation.
BB, the GM, the guy should not be shopping for groceries on offense anymore, and the guy who benched Pop Douglas, the only guy with any NFL level agility and speed on the offense.

And Myles Bryant, because fuck him. And Jayhlani Tavai, who was quickly on pace to be my new Myles Bryant last night, until I think they finally benched him too.
I agree with 99% of this post (I think Mac's arm is fringe at best and absolutely an impeditive to running certain concepts and also gets him in trouble in a phone booth). But this is spot on, reflects most of my feelings on the matter. You don't draft Mac Jones to be your QB and then build this roster. It makes no sense.
 

lexrageorge

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If we're already declaring the 2022 weak, what's the thoughts on 2017-21?
To be fair, only one 2022 draft pick played meaningful snaps. Two of the picks that missed the game due to injury have played well when healthy. And Marcus Jones played 15 games last season so I don't know why people keep saying he's "injury prone".
 

Euclis20

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One thing about the "they're play well enough to be close" thing... that's the NFL.

18 of the 28 games played this season have been decided by one score.

It's a league where the difference between good teams and mediocre teams is consistently winning all of those inevitably close games. Losing all these close games just reinforces the notion that we're not good, not that we're about to break out.
Adding on to this: As close as it feels like the Pats' 2 losses are, there are FOUR 0-2 teams with better point differentials than the Patriots. Denver is the only other team to start off 0-2 at home, and their point differential is a near impossible -3. There is no sugar coating this mess.
 

Kliq

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I love Gonzo and he looks like a complete stud, but he took a TERRIBLE route to Mostert on the death-blow touchdown run.
 

rodderick

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Adding on to this: As close as it feels like the Pats' 2 losses are, there are FOUR 0-2 teams with better point differentials than the Patriots. Denver is the only other team to start off 0-2 at home, and their point differential is a near impossible -3. There is no sugar coating this mess.
They're also 0-2 against the spread. For as much "they kept it close against good teams" discourse, they were beaten by more than the Vegas line twice. Seems like they are made out to be bigger underdogs than they effectively were.
 

8slim

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I made this post in April, after the draft:

Better than Gesicki? He couldn't get open with Hill and Waddle dragging defenses attention on every play. And Gesicki and Henry might actually be the worst top 2 tight ends when it comes to blocking, a huge part of their job, in the entire league. A rookie TE may not come in and drop Gronk receiving numbers, but a bunch of them aren't literal turnstiles either.

I have no idea why anyone has faith in our offensive line, and that doesn't seem to be getting any better. Then we get to wide receiver. Folks were telling me Meyers was really good, the Pats disagreed and let him walk for the same money they gave Agholor, who sucks complete ass.

We all know what's coming. Defense will play well, make plays, keep them in the game against middle tier or lower teams. Awesome, meanwhile we'll be here debating whether Mac sucks or not week in week out, as he is running for his life, hoping some retread gets open in under 5 seconds. The defense is going to be staring at short fields, because our offense can't do a damn thing.

The worst part is I love their fucking draft picks. LOVE THEM. I just have no fucking idea what the plan is to actually compete, unless it's to run our the string with Mac, build a defensive team and move on when they find a QB they like. It's a plan, I guess, but one that comes with crazy long odds in today's NFL.

I am a very, very long time season ticket holder, ill be there, ill root them on, but damn, it's 2023, not 1992. The game us different and folks simply need to look at the teams in the playoffs last year to figure out what works and what doesn't.



I'm glad that @SMU_Sox seems to be fighting the good fight in here with what I've been saying for going on 3-4 years (and even in Brady's run when they wouldn't give him help). If anyone watched that game and came with anything other than "Wow, speed makes a big difference in the NFL," then they aren't paying attention.

The Pats D was focused on not allowing deep throws. The Miami defense doesn't have to worry about that with the Pats, because well, we don't have a fucking receiver that can get 1 yard of separation anywhere on the field. So Miami takes away the deep throw just by virtue of our personnel. So they can come up and hammer our receivers a split second after a catch. Meanwhile, we're stopping the deep ball, but giving up passes underneath to guys like Hill and Waddle that can turn it up field.

And you know what Hill and Waddle do that never, ever gets discussed around here. They create fucking gravity. Do people really not understand that the reason River fucking Cracraft and Braxton Berrios and Durham Smythe are getting open and making plays is because those guys pull everyone towards them. We don't have that, so it's going to be a dink a dunk shitshow until we do. But then what happens, Miami gives up some space in the middle of the field, because they know they are going to get so much fucking pressure that Mac is going to be running for his life before he has a chance to find a guy over the middle.

Mac's arm strength is fine. The problem is he can't fucking step into a throw because he's getting pancaked on every other play. Mac threw a pick yesterday, terrible throw. You know who else picks yesterday on terrible throws, Tua, Hurts, Ridder, Burrow, Mahomes, Daniel Jones, Goff, and on and on and on, and most of those guys I just mentioned, their "teams" won those games. One bad throw or interception shouldn't doom a team to losing. Tom Brady threw 12 picks in the last 10 regular season games of 2001. The Pats went 8-2.

I'm not going to rehash this debate again, because I've been pretty clear on this topic for years. The Goats for me yesterday:

The offensive line (all of them, but special shout outs to Strange, O,wenu and Anderson). If you can't block in the passing game, you damn well better be able to block in the running game, they can't do that either.
The WR's (not because of any specific plays, although once again, would be nice to see them catch a ball that doesn't have to him them perfectly in the middle of the chest) because well, they just aren't good enough, talented enough and can't get any fucking separation.
BB, the GM, the guy should not be shopping for groceries on offense anymore, and the guy who benched Pop Douglas, the only guy with any NFL level agility and speed on the offense.

And Myles Bryant, because fuck him. And Jayhlani Tavai, who was quickly on pace to be my new Myles Bryant last night, until I think they finally benched him too.
Yeah, exactly.

Just remember to read the thread and realize that the vast majority of people agree. There's only a few that are claiming Mac is the reason for all that is bad in the world.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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I have zero problem with benching Douglas last night BTW. If you can't keep the football you have no business being on the field. That has been preached from time immemorial. Douglas may have speed and separation etc but fumbling negates all of that. Stevenson got benched his rookie year for the same sin.

Hold onto the ball. Period.
 

Bowser

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Sep 27, 2019
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I’m concerned that “Mac isn’t the problem” has become an unfalsifiable hypothesis.

Set aside this throw or that. Like all QBs in the league – including backups – he is capable of making very good or great throws. And like all QBs, he’s capable of sucking, week to week. But here’s a good faith question: to what extent is our offense ineffective because it’s built to feature Mac’s (relatively) few strengths and hide his (relatively) numerous limitations?

If so, then it makes sense he’ll have a certain amount of success (e.g., a handful of nice plays each week, a high completion rate) because he’s mostly only asked to do what he does well. But it also explains why the offense, overall, remains largely ineffective. Its ceiling is too low, and it’s just too easy to defend.
 

BigSoxFan

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I have zero problem with benching Douglas last night BTW. If you can't keep the football you have no business being on the field. That has been preached from time immemorial. Douglas may have speed and separation etc but fumbling negates all of that. Stevenson got benched his rookie year for the same sin.

Hold onto the ball. Period.
We’ll see if he gets the doghouse or not. I would be very disappointed if one bad fumble relegates him to no other opportunities. I guess we’ll see how he responds.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I’m concerned that “Mac isn’t the problem” has become an unfalsifiable hypothesis.

Set aside this throw or that. Like all QBs in the league – including backups – he is capable of making very good or great throws. And like all QBs, he’s capable of sucking, week to week. But here’s a good faith question: to what extent is our offense ineffective because it’s built to feature Mac’s (relatively) few strengths and hide his (relatively) numerous limitations?

If so, then it makes sense he’ll have a certain amount of success (e.g., a handful of nice plays each week, a high completion rate) because he’s mostly only asked to do what he does well. But it also explains why the offense, overall, remains largely ineffective. Its ceiling is too low, and it’s just too easy to defend.
What are the consequences of that hypothesis?
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Evan Lazar:

Through the first two weeks, #Patriots QB Mac Jones has attempted one play-action pass attempt from under center on 96 pass attempts. I'm sure there's a good reason for it, maybe related to the O-Line, but that doesn't seem ideal for this offensive personnel.
Do they think Mac can't do play-action? I would find that very difficult to believe.
 

rodderick

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I’m concerned that “Mac isn’t the problem” has become an unfalsifiable hypothesis.

Set aside this throw or that. Like all QBs in the league – including backups – he is capable of making very good or great throws. And like all QBs, he’s capable of sucking, week to week. But here’s a good faith question: to what extent is our offense ineffective because it’s built to feature Mac’s (relatively) few strengths and hide his (relatively) numerous limitations?

If so, then it makes sense he’ll have a certain amount of success (e.g., a handful of nice plays each week, a high completion rate) because he’s mostly only asked to do what he does well. But it also explains why the offense, overall, remains largely ineffective. Its ceiling is too low, and it’s just too easy to defend.
I was browsing some Jets boards to get a feel for what their view on the team is for the upcoming matchup and they're having "Zach Wilson is not the problem" arguments over there, so I'll take our situation on that front any day of the week.
 

Deathofthebambino

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I’m concerned that “Mac isn’t the problem” has become an unfalsifiable hypothesis.

Set aside this throw or that. Like all QBs in the league – including backups – he is capable of making very good or great throws. And like all QBs, he’s capable of sucking, week to week. But here’s a good faith question: to what extent is our offense ineffective because it’s built to feature Mac’s (relatively) few strengths and hide his (relatively) numerous limitations?

If so, then it makes sense he’ll have a certain amount of success (e.g., a handful of nice plays each week, a high completion rate) because he’s mostly only asked to do what he does well. But it also explains why the offense, overall, remains largely ineffective. Its ceiling is too low, and it’s just too easy to defend.


First of all, the hypothesis will never be proven false or true until the organization puts actual NFL talent around him at the skill positions and on the offensive line. It's been said here repeatedly that Mahomes could make chicken salad out of chicken shit, as did Brady.

So I guess we wait 20 years until the next one of those guys comes along and in the meantime, just hang our QB's out to dry.

I think you're misreading the situation on the offense being held back by Mac's limitations.

The game plans aren't being put together because of Mac Jones' limitations. They are being put together this way because of what he has to work with. When you have an offensive line that doubles as a plastic colander, you can't run routes that take 3-4 seconds to get open. You have to get the ball out quick, which means our squad of 5.0 40 yard dash receivers can only get about 2-3 yards off the line before Mac has to find one of them. Then he has to throw off his back foot anyway, because the rush is already there, into a window the size of an egg because there's no separation, and if he doesn't hit that egg perfectly, it's about 4 weeks in between one of those stone handed receivers making an above average catch.

They can't run the ball, so linebackers are dropping, and last night, it didn't matter how many guys Miami sent on the pass rush, 3 guys, 4 guys, 5 guys, they were all getting there.

The way you beat a blitz is with screen passes, misdirection, hitch passes outside, etc. The problem is a 4 man pass rush right now is a blitz without actually sending the extra defenders, so we're using an offense designed to beat blitzes that aren't blitzes and defenses have more guys back than we have in routes, so even if there is a catch, our receivers can't make anyone miss and are getting taken down.

If I saw one more fucking play last night end up 2nd and 1 or 3rd and 1, because we got no YAC, I was going to lose my mind.
 

Deathofthebambino

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Evan Lazar:



Do they think Mac can't do play-action? I would find that very difficult to believe.
I would too, considering when they did use it, he's been very good at it.

From January, lot of good stuff in this piece:

https://www.patspulpit.com/2023/1/18/23560324/how-patriots-can-get-mac-jones-back-on-track

Three areas in particular stand out that can get better in 2023, and improve the overall creativity of New England’s offensive attack: the use of more traditional play-action sets, the use of run-pass option plays (RPOs), and the incorporation of more motion looks.

When it comes to play-action, the Patriots used it on just 16.7 percent of his dropbacks in 2022. When Matt Patricia did call it, though, Jones was generally successful: he completed 57 of 78 passes for 627 yards, three touchdowns and one interception. His adjusted completion percentage — i.e. excluding drops and throwaways — was 83.1, the fifth-highest number in the NFL; his yards per attempt (8.0) ranked 13th.

The use of play-action obviously always depends on situation and opponent, but the way the Patriots built their offense one would suppose that it would be a prominent part of their attack. New England has a strong running game, and receivers that can succeed in the intermediate areas of the field.

And yet, the Patriots were — for one reason or another — hesitant to make play-action a key part of their attack. The most prominent use of it, in fact, came in the final game of the season: against the Buffalo Bills in Week 18, Jones attempted play-action passes on 21.4 percent of his dropbacks.

He went 9-for-9 for 92 yards and a touchdown. He also had some of his best throws of the season following play-action,
 

SMU_Sox

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I think they know they can't block it right now. PA is more time in the pocket, and I think that Mac would be getting to the top of his drop and getting clobbered a lot of times.
It might be a little of column A and B with Mac’s preferences but it is largely this. Play action is run blocking. They are allowing too much penetration on running plays for that to work.
 

lexrageorge

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Running play action last night may have forced the Pats to have Zeke take snaps at QB before the game was done.

We’ll see if he gets the doghouse or not. I would be very disappointed if one bad fumble relegates him to no other opportunities. I guess we’ll see how he responds.
I can understand the benching for the game - ball security is important, and the team was in a bit of a pickle early. But putting Douglas into a multi-game doghouse for the one fumble would be coaching malpractice given the situation of the team right now.
 

JokersWildJIMED

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Running play action last night may have forced the Pats to have Zeke take snaps at QB before the game was done.


I can understand the benching for the game - ball security is important, and the team was in a bit of a pickle early. But putting Douglas into a multi-game doghouse for the one fumble would be coaching malpractice given the situation of the team right now.
I understand it but Zeke wasn’t benched last week for a horrible fumble. To bench arguably your most dynamic pass catcher when you are absolutely devoid of playmakers is just Belichick being Belichick.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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I understand it but Zeke wasn’t benched last week for a horrible fumble. To bench arguably your most dynamic pass catcher when you are absolutely devoid of playmakers is just Belichick being Belichick.
Zeke is a veteran and Douglas is not. BB pounds it into the rookies' heads that nothing is more important than ball security.
 

Cellar-Door

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So on the YAC discussion.....

Mac Jones has the 10th highest percentage of his yards coming from YAC in the league.
He has the 18th highest YAC per reception.
He has the 10th highest IAY/PA
He has the 26th highest CAY/PA.

The YAC isn't great, but the bigger issue is that we don't complete passes down the field despite throwing them.
 

Cellar-Door

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Not even sure the Douglas thing was a true benching, mostly it was formation. They went to Gesicki a lot more, Parker played 100% of the snaps, Juju played similar to what he did week 1, Bourne played less than week 1......

A lot of it was probably just the product of... 4th WRs on teams with 2 TEs don't get many snaps.
 

rodderick

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So on the YAC discussion.....

Mac Jones has the 10th highest percentage of his yards coming from YAC in the league.
He has the 18th highest YAC per reception.
He has the 10th highest IAY/PA
He has the 26th highest CAY/PA.

The YAC isn't great, but the bigger issue is that we don't complete passes down the field despite throwing them.
I think the YAC is an issue considering their CAY/PA. Generally there's a tradeoff between depth of reception and YAC, if you're throwing the ball short and not getting much YAC it might be evidence of slow/unable to separate receivers, a QB who doesn't get them the ball on time and in stride or both.
 

SMU_Sox

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So on the YAC discussion.....

Mac Jones has the 10th highest percentage of his yards coming from YAC in the league.
He has the 18th highest YAC per reception.
He has the 10th highest IAY/PA
He has the 26th highest CAY/PA.

The YAC isn't great, but the bigger issue is that we don't complete passes down the field despite throwing them.
I think the YAC is an issue considering their CAY/PA. Generally there's a tradeoff between depth of reception and YAC, if you're throwing the ball short and not getting much YAC it might be evidence of slow/unable to separate receivers, a QB who doesn't get them the ball on time and in stride or both.
Yep. They are using the short game to supplement the run game. They throw a ton of short passes at the LOS.
 

Cellar-Door

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I think the YAC is an issue considering their CAY/PA. Generally there's a tradeoff between depth of reception and YAC, if you're throwing the ball short and not getting much YAC it might be evidence of slow/unable to separate receivers, a QB who doesn't get them the ball on time and in stride or both.
They're aren't really throwing it that short though, that's why I included the IAY/PA... they're throwing it down the field a good amount, it's just that they don't get any of those complete.

I do think separation is a concern, I also think that arm strength is a concern too, we see too many plays where the WR is waiting or coming back for a ball instead of it being ripped in there.

Edit- Parker is a key, he gets no separation at all. But Bourne has in the past done well on separation for example. I think the WRs aren't dynamic, but also the QB isn't making the kind of throws that a better (and/or stronger armed) QB makes that gives his passcatchers an advantage.
 

rodderick

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They're aren't really throwing it that short though, that's why I included the IAY/PA... they're throwing it down the field a good amount, it's just that they don't get any of those complete.

I do think separation is a concern, I also think that arm strength is a concern too, we see too many plays where the WR is waiting or coming back for a ball instead of it being ripped in there.
YAC is measured solely in regards to completed passes. And if they're 26th in air distance of completed passes, the YAC is an issue considering how short their average completion is. Intended Air Yards Per Attempt this early in the season is way too sbject to variance caused by downfield heaves with no chance of being completed, I think their overall offensive philosophy to this point is much more reflected by their CAY/PA than IAY/PA.
 

Cellar-Door

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They are, because YAC is measure solely in regards to completed passes. And they're 26th in air distance of completed passes, thus the YAC is an issue considering how short their average pass is.
yeah, but also an issue is that they complete an absurdly low percentage of their downfield passes. The huge gap in Intended air yards to completed air yards is very worrying.