Cora, Cora, Cora!

cantor44

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I don't think that Umps are "in it" to help one team or another. But unconscious bias certainly must come into play, and that bias, in sports, usually falls to whichever team, or player, has higher "status." Of course this is obviously the case in the NBA, where star players get most of the calls when there is contact around the basket.

EDIT: Electronic balls and strikes, or the opportunity to challenge a certain number of ball/strike calls should be implemented ASAP.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Is it just me or does scorecard seem to let Valentine off the hook for a truly horrendous performance?
I think it’s you. We are fans. The score card is objective. I am surprised too. But he was pretty accurate overall. The problem is that the misses were bad and untimely, and favored one team. And one was right down the middle. This same score card in a game where the 8 misses (2 of which are barely misses) were evenly distributed and less impactful leverage wise would be a pretty good scorecard. Just bad luck that his handful of misses were one sided high lev.

But the high leverage and fact that it went against us led to bias and so we “saw” lots of close calls that didn’t go our way as errors.

Hard to ask for much better than 159/167 from any human — and again two of those are marginal. Sometimes you just have to accept the data and recognize that we are fans. I think most times a 159/167 accuracy would be far less impactful. Just bad timing unfortunately.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Weirdly (or maybe not) decent overall accuracy but the mistakes all favored the Yankees. And they still got swept at home.
I suspect a great deal of this was the called 3rd strike on Story (which was well out of the zone) and the lack of a 3rd strike call for Pivetta on a ball middle middle, although that actually didn't cost them anything.
 

TFisNEXT

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Very gritty win when the other team is getting more than a run help from the umpire.

I, too, find it interesting that he was actually fairly accurate but his misses were in some high leverage spots that went against the Red Sox (plus that one directly down the middle called a ball made things feel even more incompetent). That all played into our own perception that he was worse than he actually was. But still, the situation where the calls happened objectively crushed the Red Sox....but they won anyway which was awesome.
 

Al Zarilla

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I think it’s you. We are fans. The score card is objective. I am surprised too. But he was pretty accurate overall. The problem is that the misses were bad and untimely, and favored one team. And one was right down the middle. This same score card in a game where the 8 misses (2 of which are barely misses) were evenly distributed and less impactful leverage wise would be a pretty good scorecard. Just bad luck that his handful of misses were one sided high lev.

But the high leverage and fact that it went against us led to bias and so we “saw” lots of close calls that didn’t go our way as errors.

Hard to ask for much better than 159/167 from any human — and again two of those are marginal. Sometimes you just have to accept the data and recognize that we are fans. I think most times a 159/167 accuracy would be far less impactful. Just bad timing unfortunately.
If you read a Yankee thread you'd probably see them howling that all the calls went the Red Sox way. Fans do tend to overlook their favorable calls and go nuts over the unfavorable.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Regarding the missed strike call on the pitch down the middle, might Valentine have been screened by McGuire? McGuire set up in a half crouch with his glove well above the zone like the call was for a waste pitch up and out of the zone. Pivetta missed the spot completely (which might be why Bader didn't swing at what was a meatball). I could see Valentine being blocked by McGuire's body so he didn't see the pitch and instead made the call based on how far down McGuire had to reach from his original target, which if he'd started in the zone like usual would have been well low. Though if he's going off of that, maybe he could have read the body language of McGuire, Bader, and Pivetta and realized it was a clear strike and just called a bit late (maybe put a little mustard on the call).
 

chrisfont9

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Regarding the missed strike call on the pitch down the middle, might Valentine have been screened by McGuire? McGuire set up in a half crouch with his glove well above the zone like the call was for a waste pitch up and out of the zone. Pivetta missed the spot completely (which might be why Bader didn't swing at what was a meatball). I could see Valentine being blocked by McGuire's body so he didn't see the pitch and instead made the call based on how far down McGuire had to reach from his original target, which if he'd started in the zone like usual would have been well low. Though if he's going off of that, maybe he could have read the body language of McGuire, Bader, and Pivetta and realized it was a clear strike and just called a bit late (maybe put a little mustard on the call).
Hm you may be right about that. Usual caveats that my low level ump experience is not the same as this, but if Valentine had gotten set he would have been blocked, so he didn't seem to get set, which is a recipe for trouble. So that's as good a guess as any.
 

Van Everyman

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I think it’s you. We are fans. The score card is objective. I am surprised too. But he was pretty accurate overall. The problem is that the misses were bad and untimely, and favored one team. And one was right down the middle. This same score card in a game where the 8 misses (2 of which are barely misses) were evenly distributed and less impactful leverage wise would be a pretty good scorecard. Just bad luck that his handful of misses were one sided high lev.

But the high leverage and fact that it went against us led to bias and so we “saw” lots of close calls that didn’t go our way as errors.

Hard to ask for much better than 159/167 from any human — and again two of those are marginal. Sometimes you just have to accept the data and recognize that we are fans. I think most times a 159/167 accuracy would be far less impactful. Just bad timing unfortunately.
I believe the Amica Pitch Zone is not the same tech that the scorecard uses. For instance, watching the side-view replay of the ball Judge struck out on in the 9th, while the APZ showed it barely on the lower part of the black, it pretty clearly, from the side view, was at the center of Judge's knees. So you probably have to bake in a little of that.

That said, there is no way Valentine missed only 8 calls all game. No chance. The Schreiber appearance alone was almost completely dictated by 4 or 5 absolutely brutal calls, which forced him to pitch over the heart of the plate, leading to the game-tying home run. The scorecard says that ... 1 pitch in that sequence was impactful.

As I said in the game thread, while most of the missed calls earlier in the game went against the Sox by the last few innings it was bad both ways. And, I don't doubt that some of the pitches we thought were called incorrectly, in fact, correctly called. But not all but 8 of them.
 

jayhoz

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I believe the Amica Pitch Zone is not the same tech that the scorecard uses. For instance, watching the side-view replay of the ball Judge struck out on in the 9th, while the APZ showed it barely on the lower part of the black, it pretty clearly, from the side view, was at the center of Judge's knees. So you probably have to bake in a little of that.

That said, there is no way Valentine missed only 8 calls all game. No chance. The Schreiber appearance alone was almost completely dictated by 4 or 5 absolutely brutal calls, which forced him to pitch over the heart of the plate, leading to the game-tying home run. The scorecard says that ... 1 pitch in that sequence was impactful.

As I said in the game thread, while most of the missed calls earlier in the game went against the Sox by the last few innings it was bad both ways. And, I don't doubt that some of the pitches we thought were called incorrectly, in fact, correctly called. But not all but 8 of them.
The on screen pitch zones often don't agree with the data collected on balls an strikes for reasons this video goes into.

View: https://youtu.be/xHwY_7DM29c
 

dhappy42

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If you read a Yankee thread you'd probably see them howling that all the calls went the Red Sox way. Fans do tend to overlook their favorable calls and go nuts over the unfavorable.
Yep. The “missed” strike three on Devers that led to a HR and the reversed home plate call were way more impactful than Pivetta’s down-the-middle ball and Story’s strikeout.
 

Al Zarilla

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Yep. The “missed” strike three on Devers that led to a HR and the reversed home plate call were way more impactful than Pivetta’s down-the-middle ball and Story’s strikeout.
There was a missed strike three call call on Raffy before his home run? See, further proving just what you said (I know nothing of that missed call. Ha ha).
 

dhappy42

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There was a missed strike three call call on Raffy before his home run? See, further proving just what you said (I know nothing of that missed call. Ha ha).
I didn’t see it either but MFY fans complained about it on Twitter, further making the point that we tend to miss bad calls in our favor.
 

Van Everyman

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The on screen pitch zones often don't agree with the data collected on balls an strikes for reasons this video goes into.

View: https://youtu.be/xHwY_7DM29c
Thanks for sharing – it sounds like 1) the system MLB uses can’t be replicated in real time yet and 2) the calls that the real time system struggles with the most involve the vertical strike zone. And indeed, Valentine “missed” a number of low pitches that the MLB system probably said were correctly called.

But Valentine also missed a fuck ton of pitches inside and outside the zone. Eight misses my ass.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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There was a missed strike three call call on Raffy before his home run? See, further proving just what you said (I know nothing of that missed call. Ha ha).
I assume it's the third pitch here... I don't find that too egregious. Pitches up and on the outer edge often get called balls.

69516
 

Manuel Aristides

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I haven't watched a single pitch of the series, but this wasn't the Cole game, it was the Brito one.
Guess you can tell how many I watched, too. My bad. Then again, I've never been one to let the facts get in the way of a good burn. Thanks for the fact check.
 

Archer1979

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For all the talk of why Jansen interrupted Cora's presser... it was to celebrate.

As Alex Cora began answering questions from reporters postgame Sunday, there was a loud knock on the closed door to his office inside the visitor’s clubhouse. Then, a few seconds of silence, and another loud knock. By that point, Jansen had clearly had enough. He barged in and told Cora he was needed in the clubhouse for a brief speech and beer shower. The manager obliged.


The brief celebration was for bench coach Ramón Vázquez, who took over after Cora was ejected in the sixth inning and got his first win as a major league manager. But the moment also signified something greater for the Red Sox. The group was particularly fired up after sweeping the Yankees in a clubhouse that was as boisterous as it has been all year. The Red Sox didn’t hide their level of excitement.[/QUOTE/

https://www.masslive.com/redsox/2023/08/kenley-jansen-red-sox-partied-sunday-like-it-wasnt-any-old-win-in-the-bronx.html
 

Trapaholic

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Wanted to bring it back to the posts that mentioned there was some kind of post-game team meeting. Kenley grabbed Cora from his presser and they went back into the clubhouse.

Has anyone heard any detail about this? Like were the players especially pissed about the umpire calls?

This is the most important stretch of the season. I am wondering if the veterans and Cora got together to hold court before they flew to Houston and gave some kind of a rousing speech about the road ahead.

Honestly, this would be the perfect scenario to drive home the fact that:

- The got screwed and still won
- "no one believes in us" - which is somewhat true
- Through all of the bad play, losing streaks, and injuries, the team is still in it and they still control their own destiny

I certainly have disagreed with some of Coras' in game moves. Overall, he has done a good job keeping this thing on the rails. Cora is a baseball lifer who is obsessed with competing and winning. I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall for that clubhouse meeting yesterday.

EDIT - My question was answered as I was typing this post. thank you!
 

santadevil

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I didn't get to watch the whole game but that ump made the call of the day on Judge in the 9th.

Does anyone here get Ump Scorecards on Twitter? That site's, um, problems have lessened my interaction but it's pretty interesting to see the game scores. Umpiring is better than ever, but there are several punching bags hanging on.

Update! I type too slowly.
I don't follow to closely, what's happened?
Feel free to PM, as I doubt it's really on subject of Cora
 

jayhoz

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Regarding the missed strike call on the pitch down the middle, might Valentine have been screened by McGuire? McGuire set up in a half crouch with his glove well above the zone like the call was for a waste pitch up and out of the zone. Pivetta missed the spot completely (which might be why Bader didn't swing at what was a meatball). I could see Valentine being blocked by McGuire's body so he didn't see the pitch and instead made the call based on how far down McGuire had to reach from his original target, which if he'd started in the zone like usual would have been well low. Though if he's going off of that, maybe he could have read the body language of McGuire, Bader, and Pivetta and realized it was a clear strike and just called a bit late (maybe put a little mustard on the call).
Here's the pitch in question.

https://www.mlb.com/video/nick-pivetta-ball-to-harrison-bader-kiyfkg?partnerId=web_video-playback-page_video-share
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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I was busy last night so just following on game day but wondering why Cora left Paxton in? By the time he had Murphy in it was already over.
isn’t the strength of the pen right now that there’s multiple Long inning guys that can step in quickly?

bigger question is if Paxtons arm is exhausted?
 

AB in DC

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Paxton pitched better than the box score would say. Half of the "hits" were really defensive miscues that the official scorer was being generous on.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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Letting Paxton face Chas McCormick, who may be one of the best hitters against lefties in baseball (1118 OPS), after walking two batters in the fourth seemed crazy to me. Seems like they had already committed to bringing in Murphy last night, but that seems like a spot that screamed for a righty to try to get out of the inning.
 

Max Power

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Letting Paxton face Chas McCormick, who may be one of the best hitters against lefties in baseball (1118 OPS), after walking two batters in the fourth seemed crazy to me. Seems like they had already committed to bringing in Murphy last night, but that seems like a spot that screamed for a righty to try to get out of the inning.
That means they needed a righty warming up to start the 4th inning during a stretch of 16 days in a row without one off. For better or worse, that game was going to be for Paxton and Murphy.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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That means they needed a righty warming up to start the 4th inning during a stretch of 16 days in a row without one off. For better or worse, that game was going to be for Paxton and Murphy.
Since Murphy was sent down (and has to "stay down" for 15 days (pitcher) presumably they will have Llovera available but I'm hoping with a need for a long-relief arm that they call Walters up as soon as Llovera finishes his next outing. There's too many short inning appearances by starters to not have as many of the Murphys, Walters, Pivetta, guys around.
 

Tony Pena's Gas Cloud

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Apologies if this is too "game-thready", but am I the only one who thinks Cora completely mismanaged the relievers last night? It was clear from his first batter that Pivetta had nothing. With Jansen unavailable, I understand trying to stretch Pivetta a bit, but with Bernardino available, why we he not used with Muncy and Peralta back to back? Why is Bernardino on the team if not to be used against lefties? It's mystifying how with a bunch of fresh arms available Cora would leave a pitcher in to allow two inherited runners and four runs of his own to score. Thoughts?
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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I thought that at the time, too, but seems like Jansen, Whitlock, and Winckowski were all unavailable, so using Bernardino that early would likely have meant pushing Llovera into a high leverage spot, perhaps? Rolled the dice and hoped Pivetta could get through that inning, and failed.
 

Return of the Dewey

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I had no problem with Cora last night. The loss was due to player execution: bad ABs with runners on, bad baserunning, bad swings on 3-0 counts, bad pitching to the bottom of order. I have settled on the fact that they are who they are: a slightly above average team with flaws. They still have a shot, but it won’t be easy. And I have no idea what to expect on a game by game basis. I wouldn’t be surprised if they win a pitching/defense game today after last night’s cluster f.
 

Benj4ever

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Apologies if this is too "game-thready", but am I the only one who thinks Cora completely mismanaged the relievers last night? It was clear from his first batter that Pivetta had nothing. With Jansen unavailable, I understand trying to stretch Pivetta a bit, but with Bernardino available, why we he not used with Muncy and Peralta back to back? Why is Bernardino on the team if not to be used against lefties? It's mystifying how with a bunch of fresh arms available Cora would leave a pitcher in to allow two inherited runners and four runs of his own to score. Thoughts?
Glad I couldn't watch the game. To me, it seems like Cora sacrifices too many chances to win today because it will give him a better chance (he supposes) to win tomorrow. I believe a bird in the hand is still worth two in the bush.
 

Daniel_Son

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I hate to reduce any game to a single decision, but Wong's baserunning error completely changed the outlook of that game. That doesn't happen, we have bases loaded with Raffy at the plate.

Now, whether or not the baserunning/defensive errors are the result of poor coaching is up for debate.
 

JM3

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FTR these are just fanboy accounts, yes?
Lol yes, those are opinions, not news. Nyan posts some relatively sharp things, but I mostly used them as shorthand for something resembling my opinion.

MiLB is popping.
 

8slim

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Admittedly I haven’t been able to follow this series closely the past few days. So can someone explain to me why on Earth Devers and Yoshida didn’t start today, and why Murphy has been left in to give up six freakin’ runs.

It’s like we’ve forfeited.
 

bosockboy

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Admittedly I haven’t been able to follow this series closely the past few days. So can someone explain to me why on Earth Devers and Yoshida didn’t start today, and why Murphy has been left in to give up six freakin’ runs.

It’s like we’ve forfeited.
Devers was injured yesterday and getting examined today.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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Yoshida has also been awful, too, does it matter? 250/256/345 in August. 3 BB/26 K since July. Seems like he’s hit a wall, or is battling something.