Because Mo Williams and Antawn Jamison were the Cavs 2nd and 3rd best players while Boobie Gibson played major minutes?moly99 said:
Kevin Love News and Rumors
- Thread starter Reardon's Beard
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Actually their third best player (after LeBron and Ilgauskas) was probably Delonte West.HomeRunBaker said:
I think it's probably some of both, and the technique issue will improve with age, but it's a little weird if Kyrie is having effort issues at this point in his career. The Cavaliers were trying to make the playoffs last year - it's not like they were trying to tank into getting Wiggins.ishmael said:
Why has everyone forgotten Varejao? He's a good bet to be the 2nd best player for the Cavs next year too.Brickowski said:
I would guess that on a LeBron/Love/Irving team, LBJ would focus more on the defensive end and let the other two be the main guys on offense. He might even have to play defensive center at times, given Love's issues and how small so many teams like to play these days.
bowiac said:
He's also a good bet to get injured. They really need to keep Thompson just to spell the inevitable times when Varajao is out, or get another big.
Varejao and Irving's checkered injury pasts are something that could derail this whole thing for Lebron.
HomeRunBaker said:
So is your argument that Wiggins would be redundant, or that he won't be ready in time?
I admit that I don't really know how quickly he will turn into an above average defender. He has the tools, but his timeline and ultimate ceiling is tough to judge at this point.
But your initial argument seemed to be that Wiggins' defense (even if good), would be redundant with Lebron on the team. That's what I strongly disagree with. An above average defensive wing with Lebron would still have tremendous value.
Having said all that… I would definitely trade Wiggins for Love. Not because Wiggins is redundant, just because Love is likely better.
I have 3 reasons......he's 19, he's a bad fit offensively off the ball, and if he becomes the elite defender I feel he will it won't be in the next 2-3 years (see:youth) nor will it be maximized since LeBron will be defending the primary scorer in the 4th quarter.radsoxfan said:
Love is not perfect......but I don't see any reason I don't snap trade Wiggins for him with LeBron here.
BigSoxFan said:
I think Love's defense will improve wherever he goes. I think it's been debated previously, but Minnesota was so bad with Love off the court that it was imperative for him to stay out of foul trouble, hence the matador treatment. It depends one whether these are bad habits or a concerted effort to avoid contact, but wherever he goes, it's likely that his defense will improve, his fouls will go up, and his rebounding will go down. He won't be a plus defender, but slightly below average will be a significant improvement.
If you can't play defense without staying out of foul trouble doesn't that kind of speak to your defensive ability ?Infield Infidel said:
HomeRunBaker said:
We're on the same page overall then, and I agree with much of the logic. I make the trade if I'm the Cavs as well.
I just disagree with the the defensive redundancy portion of the argument. If (and it's a big if) Wiggins becomes an above average to elite wing defender, I don't see the overlap in defensive skills mitigating Wiggins' value very much to the Cavs.
In any Love trade, the Cavaliers -- currently not a deep team -- will need to move three salaries, assuming Varejao is off-limits.
At a minimum, that means Wiggins, Bennett, and Haywood gets you there.
That leaves a Cavaliers team with Miller as your only backup wing and Thompson as your only backup big. They have no player exceptions to use, right? Pretty thin squad.
I would honestly try to hang on to Haywood, for as much as he sucks, and move Waiters in the package. Try and get Brewer and Mbah Moute. Role players who could actually be useful on the Cavaliers. Depends on how much the FO believes in Waiters, I guess.
At a minimum, that means Wiggins, Bennett, and Haywood gets you there.
That leaves a Cavaliers team with Miller as your only backup wing and Thompson as your only backup big. They have no player exceptions to use, right? Pretty thin squad.
I would honestly try to hang on to Haywood, for as much as he sucks, and move Waiters in the package. Try and get Brewer and Mbah Moute. Role players who could actually be useful on the Cavaliers. Depends on how much the FO believes in Waiters, I guess.
Next summer will give the Cavs more time to fill out their roster......it's a given that they will have many holes this season at least to begin the year at least those are my expectations.Devizier said:
Exactly. Don't walk away from a rare chance to acquire a superstar by sweating the 7th or 8th guy on the roster. It's true it'll be tough to fill those slots this year, but it'll be one helluva lot tougher to get the equivalent of Love in upcoming years.
Tony C said:
The deal should be done - GS can't afford to have these rumors hanging out there if they are stuck with Lee and are going to build around Thompson. They should essentially pull their offer. Saunders doesn't have to get a deal done quickly but he also has to know that, unless the Cavs are stupid (and despite the fact we joke about it here I don't think they are), they know that they have the best trade for the Wolves.
Saunders can posture all he wants but it seems rather pointless here. Cleveland shouldn't move off of a package of Wiggins and Bennett. There simply isn't a better deal out there.
snowmanny said:
Minnesota doesn't HAVE to trade Love. They can try keeping him, hope they finally make the playoffs next year, and that it's enough to convince him to re-sign.
I'm not saying it's super likely (or all that smart), but it's certainly an option available to them if they don't find a trade they absolutely love.
Euclis20 said:
This isn't going to happen and everyone knows it. If Saunders goes this route, he will be pilloried. Love is leaving no matter what.
Unless the Cavs aren't trading Wiggins, Love will be in Cleveland and Wiggins will be in Minnesota come the start of the season. If the Cavs hold on to Wiggins, Love will be in Golden State or Boston.
wutang112878 said:
It depends if he is actively avoiding contact, or if it's just bad habits like being out of position or not knowing where your guy is. I'd put him in the former category. I wouldn't be surprised if the team asked him to avoid contact so he could avoid the chance of having to get pulled for fouls. If this is the case, there is of course the notion that it'll take time for him to adjust to a different gameplan. I don't want to undersell that, it could take him a whole season to adjust
Last season, Love's fouls per36 was 1.8, 457th out of 482 players. He could stand with bodying up his guy more, get called for more fouls, but the better defense of just covering his guy more closely would more than offset that. Heck, he could double his per36 fouls and barely be in the top 200.
He has very good court awareness, enough to be a good passer and an elite rebounder; it's likely he knows where to be to play better defense, and where to be to not get called for fouls, and he's choosing the latter.
I don't love this route, but I don't think it's impossible that Love decides to stay. For one thing, most guys take the extra money, even guys who have gotten paid big. Maybe Love leaves regardless, but maybe push comes to shove he takes the money. Second, I think there's a reason the Timberwolves lose every close game, but maybe it's just really bad luck that's about to turn around. If it does, then they could win a playoff round and give Love hope for the future.DeJesus Built My Hotrod said:
Infield Infidel said:
I dont disagree with your basketball points here, but I dont think the data backs up the 'team is telling Love not to foul' theory. However, the fouling issue seems to be a team epidemic, the TWolves had the 3rd least fouls in the league last year and their 2 leading foulers were Rubio & Brewer and Pekovic is about as useful as a fouler as Love at 2.4 per game. If I recall Love has also been trying to be a leader sort of calling out his teammates (which I think was actually good) but by the looks of it if he is really influencing their style of play he doesnt seem to prioritize defense.
Its tough to get a read on how his defense will translate. I'm trying to think of some other bigs who were a bad defenders, their team lacked defensive effort, it wasnt evident why the player was a bad defender and then they changed teams or they transformed into good defenders. That would give Love some hope if we had some of those to look at.
Wherever Love goes, it'll be interesting to see what happens to Minnesota's defense with Saunders coaching.
Maybe it's not fair or a bad comp or whatever but whenever I hear people deride Love's or Irving's defense, I think to Pierce and Allen who were not considered good defenders, but put them on a winner where they're motivated to sacrifice their scoring for a champion (Ubuntu!), save some of that energy for the defensive end and get to play with an all-world defender (KG is Lebron in this analogy) plus a rim protector (Perkins = Varejao or whoever gets acquired), and suddenly their defense doesn't jump to awesome, but it is adequate.
On the other hand, then you get James Harden where that scenario didn't play out at all, though at least for him you could have predicted this based on his Thunder days when he was already playing on a winner.
On the other hand, then you get James Harden where that scenario didn't play out at all, though at least for him you could have predicted this based on his Thunder days when he was already playing on a winner.
Without Love that team will be so remarkably bad, it will just be amazing. Like with a raw Wiggins, instead of Love, who would have no help offensively and would the holes in his game would be completely exploited that team is probably looking at like 25 wins or so bad.
One problem is that Love and Pekovic don't complement each other at all. It's not much different than Sullinger and Olynyk in that independently they aren't terrible however in today's NBA if you're a 4/5 who is stapled to the hardwood you need the guy playing next to you to be long, elastic and athletic to give your defense the necessary help balance.Infield Infidel said:
Pekovic was a turnstile himself much of the time as Love isn't that guy to provide weak side help with length. It's a lineup balance thing.....not an individual talent thing.
This is at best a disingenuous claim and at worst pure ignorance to say Paul doesn't care about his clients or their career. I suggest researching what this agent is doing to build his brand and the relationship he has with Thompson before making inaccurate assertions such as this.Blacken said:
Most agents get the same percentage if their client is making 2 million a year or 10 million a year. Agents would like to make more money rather than less money. Thompson as a starter will almost certainly be worth more when he comes off his rookie deal than Thompson as a bench player.
Am I missing something?
On another note, a Lorain, Ohio paper is reporting that the Cavs have pulled Wiggins off the table in the Love negotiations.
Am I missing something?
On another note, a Lorain, Ohio paper is reporting that the Cavs have pulled Wiggins off the table in the Love negotiations.
If Wiggins was on the table at some point, surely they should have been able to get a 3rd team involved to turn Wiggins into something that Saunders actually wants. This just gets my hopes up that these are bad GMs and Ainge might have a shot to interject himself at some point to move rondo for something of value.
MakMan44 said:
I can sort of see Saunders perspective because its really hard for a GM to make a move that is going to make his team worse in the short term, but what he is doing is stupid. He has to do something with Love prior to the deadline. What remains to be seen is if he wants to trade Love for lesser parts, but who are better right now so the team doesnt take as much of a dip down. Thats incredibly stupid, but the fact that he hasnt pulled the trigger on Wiggins yet, leads me to believe thats kind of what he is looking for because he isnt getting a better asset back than Wiggins. In 2 years, post-Love, if that team is just treading water and there isnt any real young talent on the roster then he is gone, and I dont think Flip sees that and I really genuinely cant see what his vision and strategy really is for this team.
Flip's strategy on Love seems to be the same as Danny's strategy with Rondo: put the decision off as long as you can and pray.
Love's value seems to be declining as more teams balk at offering a premium package due to his defensive deficiencies.
Love's value seems to be declining as more teams balk at offering a premium package due to his defensive deficiencies.
MakMan44 said:
It's also possible that they're backing off because other teams are not willing to guarantee that Love gets the years he wants at the maximum. I'm thinking that Love wants the Bosh opt-out option. After a few years, getting out of Cleveland winters is gonna look mighty fine.
I think the question isn't whether you do Wiggins for Love. I think you do it.
The question is whether Cleveland can construct a better package than the competition without including Wiggins. I think it's unlikely, but to me the Golden State offer of veterans and soon to be overpaid SG that sinks Minny into mediocrity doesn't make sense. Which means that the promise of young talent from Boston or Cleveland is the road Minnesota should take. In this light, is Sully and/or Olynyk plus a couple of future draft picks better than Bennett + Waiters + I dunno who + future draft picks? In that situation, I think I favor Boston, but is it clearcut?
Beyond that it's a game of chicken. Cleveland can calculate that as time passes by Love's trade value drops and Minnesota will have to compromise. Minnesota can hope that Cleveland's need to build a contender will force it to give Wiggins away.
But as am I writing these lines, the following fact becomes apparent. Minnesota really needs to trade Love before February and preferably before the season starts. Cleveland may possibly wait longer because it can calculate that the first year is for building chemistry and discovering holes in the lineup. The real pressure for Cleveland is year two. So I think it's far easier for Cleveland to wait until February and thus test Minnesota's resolve.
The question is whether Cleveland can construct a better package than the competition without including Wiggins. I think it's unlikely, but to me the Golden State offer of veterans and soon to be overpaid SG that sinks Minny into mediocrity doesn't make sense. Which means that the promise of young talent from Boston or Cleveland is the road Minnesota should take. In this light, is Sully and/or Olynyk plus a couple of future draft picks better than Bennett + Waiters + I dunno who + future draft picks? In that situation, I think I favor Boston, but is it clearcut?
Beyond that it's a game of chicken. Cleveland can calculate that as time passes by Love's trade value drops and Minnesota will have to compromise. Minnesota can hope that Cleveland's need to build a contender will force it to give Wiggins away.
But as am I writing these lines, the following fact becomes apparent. Minnesota really needs to trade Love before February and preferably before the season starts. Cleveland may possibly wait longer because it can calculate that the first year is for building chemistry and discovering holes in the lineup. The real pressure for Cleveland is year two. So I think it's far easier for Cleveland to wait until February and thus test Minnesota's resolve.
Nick Kaufman said:
I dont know if I agree with this and its the only logical justification I can think of for Flip not pulling the trigger. Love is a special player and to only have 3 offers on the table, and the one from GS as you said is pretty weak, seems to be to short of a list for what the market for Love should really be. It seems to me the big trades in the off-season are usual sign and trades of max guys, whereas at the deadline is where we typically see the big trades and have 3 team deals which is probably what Minny ultimately needs to get some good value back for Love. At the deadline its possible that you have some teams who improve or there is also the possibility that some teams dont live up to expectations and are willing to shake things up and either of these scenarios could result in the teams being willing to give up some better prospects for Love than they are right now.
As you mentioned its really a game of chicken. Or its kind of like poker where you are down on chips, you have one last all-in that your opponents might balk at, and you have a pair of Queens and need to decide if thats going to be your best opportunity or you wait it out a bit. At least in poker you can kind of calculate the odds, but in this its really, really subjective. So its really tough even if you are a great GM, so while I dont have high hopes for his intelligence, I do feel bad for Flip for the situation he is in its a tough one.
I think the reason trades happen in February is because it's the last possible minute for them to happen. (duh! ) The last possible minute though is the moment when the true bottom line of the seller and the best offer of the buyer come close to be revealed. Up until that minute, each party can hope that they can get a better deal than the one on the table. That doesn't mean this is the case however. That's why I say that they "come close" to the best agreement they will accept and not reveal outright because one or the other party can still take the best end of the deal without reaching it's bottom line. But usually, you should be able to see the true intentions of at least one party I think.
It's been my contention that the value of Love to Cleveland, which is trying to win now, starts declining as soon as the season starts because that is real opportunity cost in terms of building chemistry and getting more wins to improve 1st year playoff seeding. From that perspective, Minnesota's can extract the most value from Cleveland by getting the trade done before the season starts (or preferably before training camp opens). And, from Minnesota's perspective they seem to foolishly be in win-now mode as well, so they should be wanting to get the trade done sooner than later in order to figure out how to fill in the rest of their roster around the new pieces.
Oh come on. You think Tristan Thompson rates compared to keeping LeBron happy and making him more successful? Are you kidding me?HomeRunBaker said:
If LeBron wants Love, Rich Paul isn't gonna get mad if it takes Tristan Thompson to do it.
That isn't what you said though. You said Paul didn't care about Thompson when the reality is that they have an extremely close personal relationship as well as business.Blacken said:
I feel Paul WOULD want Thompson as part of that deal for him to put number up in Minnesota to maximize his clients earnings.
HomeRunBaker said:
Thompson's getting paid by Cleveland next season regardless of whether or not he comes off the bench or has a good year. There's no way in hell the agent who arranged LeBron's return to Cleveland is going to be stiffed by the Cavs front office. I'm sure that Paul wants Thompson to stay in Cleveland, regardless of what that means about his playing time. It's not a coincidence that LeBron mentioned him by name in that letter.