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Celtics in 18-19

Discussion in 'Mark Blount's Port Cellar: Celtics Forum' started by RedOctober3829, May 28, 2018.

  1. wade boggs chicken dinner

    wade boggs chicken dinner Member SoSH Member

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    DWade was shooting .325 on 3P shots before the game and he took five of them. I think the Cs were happy to see him launch them. They just happened to go in.
     
  2. Big John

    Big John lurker

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    It's the two pointers he made when Hayward was guarding him that bothered me. The Celtics were trying to get back in the game--at one point they had cut the lead to 10-- but they couldn't get stops.
     
  3. lovegtm

    lovegtm Member SoSH Member

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    I also said that Jaylen Brown should go to the G League prior to last season, so not going to claim any Nostradomus points.

    I like the idea of planned rest on B2Bs to intentionally make the roster thinner. These guys play well when the rotations are tight and they have to take full responsibility. Kyrie + the young guys could have made for a better effort night.

    A lot of variables for Brad to experiment with this year.
     
  4. lexrageorge

    lexrageorge Member SoSH Member

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    I cannot really blame Brad for playing Hayward. He has had a string of really strong games recently, and if he's not in any pain, he probably should play.

    Maybe Horford doesn't play if Baynes was healthy. But maybe Brad figured it's best to have the deeper roster available against the current #6 seed and use it to steal a win under tough circumstances on the road.
     
  5. benhogan

    benhogan Baynes Hogan SoSH Member

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    Hayward and Horford have been consistently bad in back-to-backs this season. We have 3 Centers that have played more then adequately recently. Not only are the stats for Al and Gordon awful in those few games, but the eye test showed players a step slow on both sides of the floor.

    Veteran All-Stars coming off a major injury (GH) or presently banged up (AH) have nothing to prove and will not be asked to play under these circumstances in the playoffs. What's the point when so many good players on the Celtics bench are thirsting for minutes?

    Pop popularized the scheduled rest days for his stars, Brad would be wise to adopt that strategy.
     
  6. Jimbodandy

    Jimbodandy Member SoSH Member

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    If last night doesn't convince him to sit Horford on day 2, nothing will. I love the man, but he played like someone's dad.
     
  7. benhogan

    benhogan Baynes Hogan SoSH Member

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    Ha, I also felt bad for Al.

    6 more back-to-backs the rest of the season. We'll know in 8 days against the Hawks. Hopefully my binky, Aron Baynes will be back
     
  8. Deathofthebambino

    Deathofthebambino Drive Carefully SoSH Member

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    I'll accept the "schedule loss" argument for last night, but here's my issue, and I posted it late in the game thread.

    The Celtics can't beat good teams on the road. Period. If they're now going to lose to bad teams on the road because of scheduling, then where does that leave them? They're a team that can only win on the road when they play crappy teams, and they get their beauty sleep? They haven't beaten a team this year that has a record above .500 right now since the Thunder in the 5th game of the season, and the Thunder were 0-4 at that point.

    That's what's concerning me. The flipside of that, as someone else mentioned, is that everyone was so happy about their beatdown of Indiana the other night, but nobody mentioned it was a road B2B for Indiana, playing without Myles Turner? That was a schedule loss for them, but in their case, at least it was against a good team. Miami blows.

    FTR, if I'm not mistaken, the Celtics were 7-3 last year on road B2B's. They are 2-5 so far this season. Did traveling get harder in the offseason, or maybe cities got further away? Maybe they need a new plane, like the Patriots?

    Whatever it is, there is reason to be concerned. It's nice watching them beat up on the dregs or play the victor to another team's schedule loss, and I fully expect them to lay the wood to Orlando tomorrow, and hopefully do the same against Brooklyn. But, I'm not going to keep letting those wins convince me they've figured it out, only to see them lay an egg against a good team or against a bad one because, schedule loss.
     
  9. HomeRunBaker

    HomeRunBaker bet squelcher SoSH Member

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    Yes absolutely and the same with the Brooklyn win. Any one individual regular season game should be taken with a grain of salt anyway but even more so when one team has an inherent schedule/rest advantage.
     
  10. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    I'd also argue that a team with as much depth as the Celtics should have fewer "schedule losses" than most teams. We can legitimately go 10-12 deep on any given night when fully healthy and Brad does a good job of managing minutes. Additionally, we're a young team with guys looking to prove themselves and "get theirs". If I'm Terry Rozier and Jaylen Brown, these are the games I'm looking forward to most because some of the starters may be dragging a little bit more. Unfortunately, they both sucked ass last night. If the Celtics want to avoid a hellish first round matchup, this team is going to need to gut out wins in the coming weeks that they're not "supposed" to win.
     
  11. wade boggs chicken dinner

    wade boggs chicken dinner Member SoSH Member

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    GH needed to play as he needs to work through these back to backs. Even if he had a crummy game, I would imagine it's good for his progression
     
  12. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

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    Seems like we’re saying that any loss shows some huge problem. Lose to good team—well we can’t beat teams we need to beat in postseason. Lose to bad team—no focus. Lost on 2nd night of b2b—we are too deep for this.

    We seem set up to complain in some way unless we win out.
     
  13. Jimbodandy

    Jimbodandy Member SoSH Member

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    Don't forget that we have to not just beat crappy teams but destroy them by 15+.
     
  14. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    This is silly. So now showing disappointment in a single game performance is equivalent to complaining? People are merely discussing what they watched and last night it wasn’t pretty. If that’s somehow frowned upon because it includes some negative commentary, then what exactly is the point of this message board?

    Calling something a “schedule loss” and then moving on is just boring and overly-simplistic to me. Nobody is jumping off the ship because of a January regular season loss.
     
  15. lovegtm

    lovegtm Member SoSH Member

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    Sometimes (often?) boring and simple explanations are correct. This is particularly true in execution-oriented environments like professional sports.
     
  16. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    And sometimes there are multiple relevant topics to discuss when evaluating a performance. If the Celtics had lost a close one last night because Kyrie or Tatum started playing hero ball and bricked a bunch of shots down the stretch, would it have been a “schedule loss”?

    Just because one possible explanation appears to be “correct” doesn’t mean there isn’t more to discuss.
     
  17. Deathofthebambino

    Deathofthebambino Drive Carefully SoSH Member

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    Ok, so I'll give a simple/boring answer on why they can't beat good teams on the road.

    They aren't that good.

    Edit: Maybe it's just me, I was under the impression we were supposed to be seeing a better team this year than the one we saw last year, and I'm not seeing that, even though we got back one of our best players, and our actual best player and the rest of the team really hasn't changed. We are currently 10-11 on the road. We need to 18-2 over the last 20 road games just to be the same team we were last year on the road. What happened differently last year, or what is happening differently this year to make this team lose so frequently in games they won so frequently last year?
     
    #2167 Deathofthebambino, Jan 11, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
  18. bosox79

    bosox79 Member SoSH Member

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    Last year, they had a better road record than home record. Their road record this year isn't that much worse than the other top teams.
     
  19. Big John

    Big John lurker

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    I just hope the guys on the team and coaching staff aren't making the same kinds of excuses as the posters here. If so, the Celtics won't win another back-to-back all year.

    Fatigue is not an excuse for selfish basketball.
     
  20. Jimbodandy

    Jimbodandy Member SoSH Member

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    Christ. I apologize for contributing to this grief fest, even if it was only a little bit.
     
  21. DeJesus Built My Hotrod

    DeJesus Built My Hotrod Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    I think most humans would admit that fatigue results in sub optimal decision making and execution. I am not saying the Cs struggles are not a result of some larger issue but "selfish" basketball can absolutely be a function of tired legs and road weary brains.

    Also, I get that the Celtics depth suggests that they should be able to weather back to backs better than thinner rosters but the reality is that the entire team had to fly from Boston to Miami in the middle of the night after everyone played and the entire team went to bed after 3am, slept in a strange place and all had to be at the arena for shootaround. As such, its conceivable to me, at least, that everyone down to Yabu and Wanamaker was a bit tired last night. Again, the data and gambling money supports the idea that B2Bs, especially on the road, are tough.

    This is not to say that I don't share some of the same concerns that other posters here have but last night's results should be discounted a fair bit imho.
     
  22. ManicCompression

    ManicCompression lurker

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    The Warriors, prohibitive favorites to win the title, are two games better than the Celtics and have a lower net rating. There’s too much talent in this league right for a single team to run away with a conference the way you’re expecting the Celtics to.

    The Bucks have been really lucky with injuries so far. Let’s see how Kawhi is playing in game 60. Let’s see how the sixers do when Jimmy Butler misses his annual 15 games. There’s so much basketball left.
     
  23. lovegtm

    lovegtm Member SoSH Member

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    Everybody here knows that I've been extremely hard on Brad and the team, particularly in game threads. A lot of people were saying early in the year that it was just that shots weren't falling, but it was very clear at that time that that was an excuse for not moving the ball, and letting bad luck/execution on offense carry over to the defensive end. A few quality wins when Kyrie was balling and/or shots DID fall (Milwaukee, OKC, Toronto) were masking fundamental flaws.

    Guess what? The players knew it too. They were frustrated as hell, and we were hearing lots of really negative stuff coming out of the locker room.

    Since roughly game 20, with some bumps (Milwaukee, San Antonio), they've corrected a ton of those flaws. Is the team perfect now? Hell no. There's a ton to work on, and mental toughness in adverse situations, of which road B2Bs are one example, is one of those things.

    However, I'm not going to let one road B2B loss cloud my otherwise positive evaluation of where the team's process has been going. "X is not an excuse for Y" is one of those things that sounds great, but isn't really actionable for evaluation (fans, management) or improvement (coaches, players).
     
  24. Big John

    Big John lurker

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    They could have tried to execute the right way but failed because of fatigue. That would have been ok with me. This won't be the last loss this season. But every time you think they've turned a corner, they haven't. I realize that progress isn't always linear, but this looked to me like significant regression. I mean, is it that much less tiring to dribble the ball incessantly instead of attempting to pass it? Hopefully they learn from the mistakes.
     
  25. lovegtm

    lovegtm Member SoSH Member

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    I was as frustrated as you, but we underestimate what mental fatigue does. It absolutely is less mentally tiring to dribble aimlessly and hoist shots than it is to run clean sets. We forget how thin the line between blowing out and being blown out is at the NBA level. If you're even a little bit off, you get completely smoked, even by inferior teams.
     
  26. Big John

    Big John lurker

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    Having never played in the NBA, I'll accept this hypothesis, but if I had a stronger stomach, I'd rewatch this game to see what Spoelstra and his staff did to encourage the Celtics to play hero ball. One obvious thing is that they did not double team Kyrie.
     
  27. benhogan

    benhogan Baynes Hogan SoSH Member

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    Good Lord, please don't make us Trust the PROCESS?:eek:

    All kidding aside a lot of the season to go, Hayward will continue to heal as will Horford (more days off please). Baynes on the mend. Smart is hitting 3s and showing confidence. Brown has turned a corner from earlier this season. TimeLord is developing and could eventually be a playoff weapon. Lots of good things are happening.

    It's only one loss. The rested Sixers just lost to the Hawks at home. And a rested Bucks just lost to the Zards. Celtics are in the mix, take care of Orlando tomorrow and Nets on Monday and then we'll see where they stand with Toronto.
     
  28. HomeRunBaker

    HomeRunBaker bet squelcher SoSH Member

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    I don’t agree with this. How many here expected us to be a 5-seed in January?
     
  29. InstaFace

    InstaFace MDLzera

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    Yes, in a word. Give both teams 3 days rest coming in and we play Indiana pretty even, are probably favored a little but it's likely a tight one.

    Give them the schedule disadvantages from Wednesday, though, and we're running them off the floor to the extent of our third string / rookie line playing the whole 4th quarter and still setting a season high for points in a 30-point win.

    The differences are vast in impact, but subtle to see as they happen right in front of you.
     
  30. Eddie Jurak

    Eddie Jurak Go Leafs Go Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    I fear that you are correct, but I am not quite there myself. It has clearly taken this team some time to get its act together, and it may well be that the current mix of players is not quite right, but I think it is still possible that this team figures it out - they look better now than 2 months ago.

    If they have a disappointing playoff run, Danny will have some difficult decisions to make.
     
  31. Devizier

    Devizier Member SoSH Member

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    When was the league last this deep? My gut instinct is to say the late eighties.
     
  32. Montana Fan

    Montana Fan Well-Known Member Silver Supporter SoSH Member

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    This is exactly right. The 7 team expansion diluted the NBA talent horribly. Across the league guard play was below average for over a decade. The current talent level in the NBA is incredibly high, the business model causes the talent to be spread around and on any given night the Hawks can beat the Sixers, the Wizards can beat the Bucks and the Heat can beat the Celtics.

    Am I disappointed that the Celts haven't played at their current pace (15-5 last 20) over the whole season? Yes, however no other team is playing at that pace so far this season either.

    edit: crap, now I see that neither Giannis nor Embid played. Well, neither did Al, kind of.
     
    #2182 Montana Fan, Jan 12, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019
  33. DrewDawg

    DrewDawg Dorito Dink SoSH Member

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    Well, I was being a bit hyperbolic on purpose. But my point was that we are showing disappointment in single game performances with different overall themes depending on who we lose to--one night it's because we can't beat good teams, another it's because we can't win on road, etc. And I didn't say anyone was jumping ship (except maybe Death up above).

    We're all a bit frustrated, but every loss isn't necessarily symptomatic of a larger problem. Or, at least, every loss isn't necessarily symptomatic of a different larger problem, that's all.
     
  34. joe dokes

    joe dokes Member SoSH Member

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    Horford's already on a minutes limit. I suspect the days off will start when Baynes is back.

    As far as the C's themselves, playing .500 for the first 20 then taking off is exactly what I thought would happen.
     
  35. Jimbodandy

    Jimbodandy Member SoSH Member

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    Brad should be rotating in more TL period. Theis is still the next in line, but TL needs more minutes. Less for Yabusele and more rest for Al. There's some risk involved, but fuck it.

    Save Al. Find out what TL has.
     
  36. Ed Hillel

    Ed Hillel Wants to be startin somethin SoSH Member

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    I’d actually like to see TL and Al on the floor together for ten minutes a game, because I think they are absolutely perfect complements of one another. Al will also expend far less energy on defense, so he can keep some gas in the tank long-term.
     
  37. joe dokes

    joe dokes Member SoSH Member

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    All public comments seem to suggest that saving Al is part of the program.
    I think what Stevens knows -- probably from practice and watching him play -- is that TL isnt a very good defensive player yet. He can block shots but he can't seem to guard anyone. He'll get there. I also think that's a pretty serious disadvantage to be playing 4 on 5 with the ball. TL's frighteningly limited offense has to expand just a bit, too, before he can be anything close to a regular.
     
  38. amarshal2

    amarshal2 Member SoSH Member

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    For the most part they just didn’t show up in Miami.* If there’s any frustration from that game it should be about them not trying hard enough to get a better seed. I think that game says almost nothing about how good they’ll be in the playoffs.

    *Caveat here is that Al was really, really bad. It made me feel uneasy about him pushing high 30s minutes in the playoffs. He’s very important. This is something to watch.

    Hayward was also bad but based on public comments that’s still part of his recovery and not worrisome long term.
     
  39. lovegtm

    lovegtm Member SoSH Member

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    Theis and Baynes are going to get significant minutes in the playoffs (15-20/game combined). Which of Baynes/Theis plays in a given matchup will probably depend on health and the opponent's burliness.
     
  40. Big John

    Big John lurker

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    What opposing offensive player has lit TL up? I haven't seen one, although he hasn't played many minutes against starters.
    He doesn't just guard one guy, he guards multiple guys because of the intimidation factor. I'd like to see TL and Theis in there together when Horford sits.

    I have no problem with TL's offensive skills. He has a mid range jumper and he's a decent passer. To me, his upside looks like Capela, which isn't too shabby. Capela did even less in his first year than TL is doing now.
     
  41. Light-Tower-Power

    Light-Tower-Power Member SoSH Member

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    Drummond and Ayton had their way with him inside.
     
  42. Big John

    Big John lurker

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    TL had almost as many rebounds in that December game as Ayton, and was 4-4 from the floor, even though it was the first time in his career that Williams played extended minutes (after Baynes broke his hand). I guess we'll have to wait until next year for a rematch.

    Against Detroit on 12/15 he played just 10 minutes and was plus 1 in the game Baynes was minus 10 (Horford didn't play).

    Sure, TL has a long way to go, but I don't see anyone abusing him. Maybe they do in practice.
     
  43. joe dokes

    joe dokes Member SoSH Member

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    You can't only "guard multiple guys." You at least have to be able to guard your guy. (or one guy on a switch).
    He hasn't been able to guard big men 1 on 1. Also, in the game that Walker(?) went off, Walker(?) got past him at will. He also regularly gets caught in between on switches and pick and rolls. We agree he has a long way to go. I dont care if looks better than Wilt Chamberlain did in his rookie year. I didn't say he has no future, I was responding with my opinion as to why he isn't playing more now. I just don't think he's been quite as good overall as his spectacular shot-blocking may have led people to believe.

    If he's taken a midrange jumper, I've missed it.
     
  44. Eddie Jurak

    Eddie Jurak Go Leafs Go Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    He's taken at least one short jumper, but he missed it. I think he's had decent success in some 1 on 1 matchups (eg, Anthony Davis), but, as you note, he has a long way to go on team defensive concepts. To me that, and not his offense, is the biggest thing standing between him and regular minutes.
     
  45. Deathofthebambino

    Deathofthebambino Drive Carefully SoSH Member

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    Are you talking about Kemba Walker? In the game he scored 43 against the C's, TimeLord never got off the bench, zero minutes. In that game, Charlotte kept exploiting the Celtics switching, and Kemba abused Al all night long off the switch. TimeLord played in the second game against Charlotte that the C's won by 16. The C's had a 27 point lead going into the 4th, so defensively, they weren't really clamping down. He did have 6 points, 2 rebounds, a block and a steal in 11 minutes.

    I don't know which big men he hasn't been able to guard 1 on 1. I've seen every minute of every game, and while he certainly has some holes, particularly in the team defense aspect, nobody has really beaten him 1 on 1 this year. His very first game, where he actually played extended minutes (26 minutes) was against Anthony Davis, and he ate him up 1 on 1. By the time he gets into most games, there has been very little 1 on 1 post play being set up against him. Other teams are usually down and trying to come back (or vice versa) and get off quicker shots.

    In the Ayton game that LTP referenced, Ayton did most of his damage against Theis and others. TL played 24 minutes and had 8 points, 8 rebounds, 5 blocks, 1 steal and 1 assist. He was one of the few bright spots that night in an ugly team loss.

    I'm with BigJohn here, I don't remember anyone abusing him to this point. Like I said, he definitely has some holes, in the team game, but there hasn't been much sign so far this year that he can't play just about anyone in the low post. In fact, I'd say it's been almost the opposite. On the offensive side, he needs to be a bit stronger on his screens, and obviously, he doesn't do much besides move the ball and dunk lobs, but he really doesn't need to do more than that on this team. We've already got too many scorers fighting for shots as it is. I'm just fine with him setting screens, catching lobs, moving the ball from side to side, and keeping offensive rebounds in play (something Theis is becoming great at), if not grabbing them himself.

    At the end of the day, he's still a very raw, young rookie, but I'm not sure how anyone can really downplay what we've seen to this point. He has almost an immediate impact in every game he comes into. Whether it's because the crowd is getting excited, and the team is feeding off of it, or if it's because he's making contributions, I don't really care, I just think he's definitely earning himself some more playing time and like others, I'd like to see him play alongside one of the bigs a little bit more.
     
  46. Big John

    Big John lurker

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    In my view, the biggest things standing between TL and regular minutes are (1) general inexperience, (2) injuries, and (3) Daniel Theis, who is a pretty good player.

    I'm pretty sure he made a jumper against Phoenix but I can't find any film.
     
  47. mcpickl

    mcpickl Member SoSH Member

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    According to nba.com stats, Williams has attempted one shot from outside the paint this season and he missed it.
     
  48. Big John

    Big John lurker

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    I stand corrected. Maybe he'll make one tonight.
     
  49. Deathofthebambino

    Deathofthebambino Drive Carefully SoSH Member

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    I don't want Williams shooting any jumpers. We've got enough guys better than him at doing it at all times, and half of them shouldn't be shooting jumpers inside the 3 point line anyway. Just get your ass down there and grab some rebounds and then either dunk it, or kick it back out.
     
  50. Eddie Jurak

    Eddie Jurak Go Leafs Go Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    The display of hero ball as the game slipped away in the 4th was pathetic.
     

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