Kyrie (quad), Smart (illness), and Baynes will each be out tonight. So the much-maligned Rozier will likely start along with Brown.
I agree.I’m not really sure how Ainge can even offer a contract to someone saying shit like this publicly. It’s going to be a real test of talent trumps all versus wanting to build a cohesive unit with a strong locker room leader. I don’t think I’ll be upset either way at this point, but maybe it’s time to see if you can work a 3-team trade for Kyrie/Brown/picks to land Davis. I’m not sure who’s giving up what for Kyrie, though.
This is super interesting and seems to reveal that the team is talking about a lot of the same things people are talking about here.I believe these are some of the full quotes from Kyrie last night. Source: https://celticswire.usatoday.com/2019/01/13/kyrie-irving-on-celtics-ups-and-downs-what-are-we-doing-here/
We can’t be comfortable being in fifth. I’m not comfortable in it so now I go back and really rework things and try to think about how I attack the next day, but the frustration is still inside of me, you know? I’m a competitor, you know?and
Experience. It’s the best thing I can say is experience. We’re lacking it, and because of that, we have a lot of learning to do. So we have a lot of ground to make up in that aspect. It gets tough. When it gets hard, you’ve got to think. You’ve got to do the right things. You can’t gamble and think that it’s going to be the winning play. You’ve got to be able to play the full 48 minutes, no matter what’s going on, and hold your head high when you make mistakes, and when your job is called upon, you’ve got to do it to the best of your ability. You’ve got to come in and make an impact for the minutes that you’re playing out there. You’ve got to appreciate being out there and just competing. It doesn’t matter who you’re going against. It matters the type of preparation you have, what you’re going out and trying to accomplish.
What’s the big picture? What are we doing here? These are the things I don’t think some of my teammates have faced of just every single day. It’s not easy to be great. So the things you’re doing, that you’ve done your entire career of being able to coast by in certain situations and you’ve gotten away with your youth and stuff like that, being on a championship ball club, you can’t get away with that. You see the fans going crazy. You see it gets loud.
I know from the majority of the fact that we’re better than most teams in this league. It’s just going out and proving it every single night and demanding it and actually showing it. So until we do that every single night, and realize our depth is a positive, and all the wishes and could haves and should have done that, once that goes out the window, then we’ll be better. But until then, we’re going to keep having these ups and downs and these lulls of going against teams on the road and they just know they can take advantage of us down the stretch, or when this group is in or that’s group out. It has to be a cohesion. I’ve got to be better as a leader of the team as doing so and making sure these guys have more experience in certain situations like that, being more communicative. So I put it on me of just being better, so.
I think Ainge would, at least, consider trading Irving as part of a package for Davis (btw, Tatum will almost certainly have to go the other way in a Davis deal) but as others have pointed out, New Orleans would only consider Kyrie if he will commit to signing there long-term and perhaps not even then.I agree.
I'm not giving Kyrie a max contract to lead this franchise for the next half-decade.
There's the knee(s) to begin with....and now 'airing the laundry' in public which was wrong.
Do whatever it takes to get Davis --- and if it involves a package of Kyrie, Brown and both of our 2019 lottery picks.....I'm in favor of it.
And if Irving doesn't even want to go the Pelicans, there is no chance for completing a sign-and-trade anyway. There will probably be enough suitors with cap space to offer him a max contract that the sign-and-trade option may not make much sense for him.I think Ainge would, at least, consider trading Irving as part of a package for Davis (btw, Tatum will almost certainly have to go the other way in a Davis deal) but as others have pointed out, New Orleans would only consider Kyrie if he will commit to signing there long-term and perhaps not even then.
In short, the Cs are almost certainly faced with signing Irving to an extension this off season, dealing him via a S&T or letting him walk.
There's no point to dealing Irving for Davis as they'd need the former to convince the latter to remain in Boston. The options are:I agree.
I'm not giving Kyrie a max contract to lead this franchise for the next half-decade.
There's the knee(s) to begin with....and now 'airing the laundry' in public which was wrong.
Do whatever it takes to get Davis --- and if it involves a package of Kyrie, Brown and both of our 2019 lottery picks.....I'm in favor of it.
Prior to the recent scheduling break we were slightly above avg in SOS. These past 6-7 weeks the softness we’ve esperienced has us at 24th in the league. I still see the correlation with our W/L record and other metrics more of a result of the competition (and in some cases schedule wins) rather than any improvement in actual play.A few pieces of data to frame discussions going forward.
First, even after their trip to hell in Florida, the Cs are still second in the league to the Bucks in Net Rating. They are also second to Milwaukee in BRefs Simple Rating System (which takes into account point differential as well as strength of schedule) and their margin of victory is second as well.
On that note, the league average margin of victory is four points per game this season. I know some people aren't just frustrated at the Cs inconsistency but also that they seem to keep even "bad" teams close. The reality is that this is the norm across the league.
Finally, fwiw, the Cs are underperforming their Pythagorean win expectation by four wins whereas the Bucks are only down two wins from their expected total while Toronto is three wins better than expected. I don't put much stock in this last bit of "data" but it bears watching to see if the Cs revert to where they should be record-wise.
The bottom line is that the Celtics, for as frustrating as they have been, still look decent from a metrics perspective. As such, we may be panicked and the players are clearly frustrated based on their comments and actions. However anyone looking at the data will conclude that there is no reason to make a rash move like selling Rozier off for a pack of gum. Ainge isn't likely to do so given his track record but the numbers support him being patient.
I think the first comment was to say that younger players who are drafted high get used to taking plays off - because their experience is that they can just turn it on when they need to because they are so much better than most of the people they play with. That obviously isn't the case in the NBA. Frankly, I'm sure Kyrie did his fair share of coasting when he was on his first contract too.This is super interesting and seems to reveal that the team is talking about a lot of the same things people are talking about here.
"So the things you’re doing, that you’ve done your entire career of being able to coast by in certain situations and you’ve gotten away with your youth"
Did other people take this to be a shot at the younger guys being able to blame their inexperience for mistakes they've made in the past? Or that veterans (Hayward) have been more athletic in the past and able to do more with their youthful athleticism?
"realize our depth is a positive"
This seems aimed at Rozier or JB right? Complaining about minutes or coming off the bench?
Also, a lot of this seems like he's talking about team culture and while it's good he's taking responsibility, I can't help but think these are all the issues that never seem to come up for the Spurs and a large part of why Pop is so great. It does not seem like Brad has been able to get enough "buy-in".
Fair enough. The reality is that the Celtics are 25-17 and pythag plus pundit/fan expectations were for them to be four or so wins better at this point.Prior to the recent scheduling break we were slightly above avg in SOS. These past 6-7 weeks the softness we’ve esperienced has us at 24th in the league. I still see the correlation with our W/L record and other metrics more of a result of the competition (and in some cases schedule wins) rather than any improvement in actual play.
http://www.espn.com/nba/stats/rpi/_/sort/SOS
With so few tradeable assets at the deadline I don’t expect much to happen from now until the end of the season. He’s not going to trade lottery balls for a rotation player that we don’t need. We then have expiring contracts of rotation players which we won’t want to give away for more picks and higher upside guys on rookie deals who won’t be moved. There just doesn’t seem to be much happening on the trade front for us that I can see.Fair enough. The reality is that the Celtics are 25-17 and pythag plus pundit/fan expectations were for them to be four or so wins better at this point.
Furthermore, the data supports the idea that they are underperforming though it also suggests that they can/may be much better. One of these things should give - either their net rating/SRS/MOV moves more toward the high-middle of the pack, commensurate with their record or they start to win more consistently.
Either way, Ainge probably isn't working the phones any harder today than he was after the Pacers win.
Any idea what the net rating/pythag are if we exclude the Bulls game, or know of a way to run those numbers?A few pieces of data to frame discussions going forward.
First, even after their trip to hell in Florida, the Cs are still second in the league to the Bucks in Net Rating. They are also second to Milwaukee in BRefs Simple Rating System (which takes into account point differential as well as strength of schedule) and their margin of victory is second as well.
On that note, the league average margin of victory is four points per game this season. I know some people aren't just frustrated at the Cs inconsistency but also that they seem to keep even "bad" teams close. The reality is that this is the norm across the league.
Finally, fwiw, the Cs are underperforming their Pythagorean win expectation by four wins whereas the Bucks are only down two wins from their expected total while Toronto is three wins better than expected. I don't put much stock in this last bit of "data" but it bears watching to see if the Cs revert to where they should be record-wise.
The bottom line is that the Celtics, for as frustrating as they have been, still look decent from a metrics perspective. As such, we may be panicked and the players are clearly frustrated based on their comments and actions. However anyone looking at the data will conclude that there is no reason to make a rash move like selling Rozier off for a pack of gum. Ainge isn't likely to do so given his track record but the numbers support him being patient.
Be sure to take out every teams best game if you do that.Any idea what the net rating/pythag are if we exclude the Bulls game, or know of a way to run those numbers?
B-Ref doesn't let you customize periods though I am betting the stats sites will move to that model since just about everyone in the world can now slice data any way they want at work. That said, slamminsammya is right - I am not sure its instructive.Any idea what the net rating/pythag are if we exclude the Bulls game, or know of a way to run those numbers?
I can't argue with that but can anyone name a trade where Ainge essentially moved a player just to move them?If Rozier is a net negative to this team, then Ainge should dump him for whatever he can get. Otherwise, he's leaving it all in Brad's court to staple him to the bench.
I’d argue Big Baby for Brandon Bass was partially a “get this guy out of here” move.I can't argue with that but can anyone name a trade where Ainge essentially moved a player just to move them?
He made a statement yesterday about how he shouldn't publicly criticize his teammates. I think either Brad or Danny talked to him and said, "Hey, I know you're frustrated. But you can't do that."Hopefully Kyrie apologizes for airing laundry and they get back to where they were last week.
Roster construction definitely could be an issue, made more obvious with Baynes out. I've seen too many games where you've got all these little wings getting beaten up inside by the opposing team's big men. Right now they're 17th in rebounding -- but it looks worse than that the last 20 games (e.g., the 41 boards that they got last night would put them at 27th in the NBA if extrapolated). If the wings were great shooters, that would be one thing, but they're not (#16 in field goal percentage).DA accumulated a bunch of athletic wings on the theory that these athletic wings can guard 1-5 but on the other end, there are going to be mismatches all over the court.
What I am seeing is that the Cs have a hard time guarding small and have a hard time rebounding versus bigs, and on the other end, they aren't taking advantage of mismatches.
This is an interesting example. If you watch it on tape, I suspect what you will find is that he Cs forced a TO; Yabu ended up with the ball; JB looked for the pass but didn't get it; JB started running down the court; meanwhile Yabu started dribbling but was pressured by a Nets defender; and then Yabu panicked and threw it at JB's back.Esp on the late TO when he took his eye off Yabu or Ojeleye dribbling the ball up off a miss or turnover, and allowing the ball to bounce off his back for a TO.
Speaking on which, it was funny to me that when Russell hit his step back over GH in the 3Q, the Nets color guy said, GH is "one of the best on the ball defenders in the NBA."As nice as it would have been been to have Kyrie, they missed Smart more. In the third, Russell looked like the love child of Harden and Curry with no resistance.
Irving, who missed the game with a right quad injury, addressed the team after the game.
“It’s the truth,” Celtics second-year forward Jayson Tatum said. “He knows what it takes to win a championship and most of us don’t. Sometimes you have to be brutally honest in this profession to get the best out of one another. It came from a good place.”
“I don’t think we’ve all been on a team like this,” Rozier told Yahoo. “Young guys who can play, guys who did things in their career, the group that was together last year, then you bring Kyrie and Hayward back, it’s a lot with it.”
When asked if the roster was too talented, Rozier didn’t back down.
“Too talented, yeah. Too talented.”
When asked if Irving’s critique was necessary, Rozier had a simple reply.
“Yeah.”
Totally agree with your point that GH is not currently one of the best, but on that one specific play he was right in Russell's face and he hit the shot anyway. Sometimes when guys get hot it doesnt matter how good the D is. Don't get me wrong, there were plenty of other times before that where they gave him too much room and that allowed him to get started. It would have been interesting to see how it would have gone with Smart in the game.Speaking on which, it was funny to me that when Russell hit his step back over GH in the 3Q, the Nets color guy said, GH is "one of the best on the ball defenders in the NBA."
At which point I said to the TV, "Is this the first time watching the Cs this season?
I know they have to continue to play GH but man, I guess I'll just say that I'm hoping a break at the All-Star game does him some good.
JB comes off as passive-aggressive here. He's totally fixated on Kyrie's comments and answers every question with some variation of "we gotta have each other's backs" (a phrase he uses maybe ten times). He attributes the late run to "staying positive" and ignoring what's being said. Sounds like he doesn't feel comfortable playing with guys who criticize him (understandable) and believes that's the biggest problem with this team, which is either his real diagnosis (brought to you by: projection) or just him taking the opportunity after a game he can be proud of to call out certain guys for being dicks to him.note: JB's take on the Cs here: https://www.celticsblog.com/2019/1/15/18183232/jaylen-brown-we-just-gotta-have-each-others-back-boston-celtics-kyrie-irving.
The most astute part of his comments: "How many of us are making each other better?"
I hate to say this but when the Cs play like a team they are very very good. However, there are times that they look like a bunch of guys going one-on-one and that's when everything falls apart.
Horford is going through some real challenges physically right now, and it's not close to clear that he will be able to overcome them this season. They've been managing his minutes for a few weeks now, and nothing seems to have improved. It's typically difficult, if not impossible, for such a player, even a well respected veteran such as Horford, to have much influence in an NBA locker room.JB comes off as passive-aggressive here. He's totally fixated on Kyrie's comments and answers every question with some variation of "we gotta have each other's backs" (a phrase he uses maybe ten times). He attributes the late run to "staying positive" and ignoring what's being said. Sounds like he doesn't feel comfortable playing with guys who criticize him (understandable) and believes that's the biggest problem with this team, which is either his real diagnosis (brought to you by: projection) or just him taking the opportunity after a game he can be proud of to call out certain guys for being dicks to him.
He and Tatum are such a contrast. He takes a more defiant stance and ignores a prompt to address Kyrie's "positive" comments for team after the Nets game, while Tatum defers to Kyrie and says his comments have truth to them. Even on temperament alone, Tatum is a seamless fit with this team moving forward, while JB is going after the leadership on this team (Kyrie, Morris, maybe Smart?).
I wonder what Danny thinks of all this. And What's Horford's role in the locker room? It'll be fascinating to see how this all shakes out.
I didn't take issue with what Jaylen said: they do need to have each other's backs, they do need to empower each other, and they need to pla for each other. Kyrie said himself he'd made a mistake and would never question his teammates publicly again.JB comes off as passive-aggressive here. He's totally fixated on Kyrie's comments and answers every question with some variation of "we gotta have each other's backs" (a phrase he uses maybe ten times). He attributes the late run to "staying positive" and ignoring what's being said. Sounds like he doesn't feel comfortable playing with guys who criticize him (understandable) and believes that's the biggest problem with this team, which is either his real diagnosis (brought to you by: projection) or just him taking the opportunity after a game he can be proud of to call out certain guys for being dicks to him.
He and Tatum are such a contrast. He takes a more defiant stance and ignores a prompt to address Kyrie's "positive" comments for team after the Nets game, while Tatum defers to Kyrie and says his comments have truth to them. Even on temperament alone, Tatum is a seamless fit with this team moving forward, while JB is going after the leadership on this team (Kyrie, Morris, maybe Smart?).
I wonder what Danny thinks of all this. And What's Horford's role in the locker room? It'll be fascinating to see how this all shakes out.
Brown could legitimately be sick of being yelled at too. After a while--even if the criticisms have merit--you just want to tell people to get off your fucking back. You're doing the best that you can, so stfu.
These guys can't even rent cars at some places. They're kids. They're gonna act like kids sometimes.
I should be clear that I don't take issue with what Jaylen said either. He's my favorite player on this team and I hope they find a way to keep him long-term. I actually like how he thinks, and I liked his comments after the Kyrie trade where he was like, "Kyrie is a great player, but IT and Crowder were my vets, they built this team from nothing, so I'm not gonna say I'm happy."I didn't take issue with what Jaylen said: they do need to have each other's backs, they do need to empower each other, and they need to pla for each other. Kyrie said himself he'd made a mistake and would never question his teammates publicly again.
They're talented and well coached. They just don't close teams out well. Lack of a killer instinct. Maybe they need to be a little more pissed off.Still nuts that through all this the point differential is still #2 in the NBA and even removing that one Bulls blowout they're top 5.
Wasn't just referring to one play. GH is a pretty good defender but he certainly is not one of the top on-the-ball defenders in the league right now. He's definitely not the guy who did a credible job of defending KD pre-injury.Totally agree with your point that GH is not currently one of the best, but on that one specific play he was right in Russell's face and he hit the shot anyway. Sometimes when guys get hot it doesnt matter how good the D is. Don't get me wrong, there were plenty of other times before that where they gave him too much room and that allowed him to get started. It would have been interesting to see how it would have gone with Smart in the game.
Yes it's just the regular season and yes they are going to make the playoffs but it does matter as they really have to figure out their "identity" - i.e., the way they want to play. You can call it their identity or style or what have you but they have to figure out what makes people most successful in terms of shots, handling the ball, lineups, and even defense.Repeat after me: This is the regular season, and regular season results mean almost nothing.
They are coasting, giving guys rest and being extra cautious with banged up guys. Naturally this is going to translate to some games they play with less than 100% effort. We have seen them play well in the playoffs, which gives me optimism that they will play well in the playoffs again this year. Wake me up in April.
We have never seen the team, as currently constructed, play well in the playoffs. I would love for the "flip the switch" mentality to be a reality but I think that may be wishcasting a bit. I think DeJesus' consistent position is pretty spot on. They're not very good now but there is time for that to change. Anyone who is deeply concerned has more than enough data points to support their position. Anyone who thinks they'll turn it around by the spring is also being reasonable. This team really does have a ton of potential variability. I wouldn't be surprised if they got spanked by Philly/Indiana in Round 1 and that was that. I also wouldn't be surprised if they got right back to the ECF. The Celtics' ceiling remains as high as any team in the East.Repeat after me: This is the regular season, and regular season results mean almost nothing.
They are coasting, giving guys rest and being extra cautious with banged up guys. Naturally this is going to translate to some games they play with less than 100% effort. We have seen them play well in the playoffs, which gives me optimism that they will play well in the playoffs again this year. Wake me up in April.
I'm not sure about net rating, but it is basically the same thing as point differential. It's just not adjusted to 100 possessions. If you remove the Bulls game, the Celtics average margin of victory drops from 6.0 to 5.0. That would drop them from 2nd in the NBA to 6th. Behind the Bucks, Warriors, Raptors, Thunder and Pacers.Any idea what the net rating/pythag are if we exclude the Bulls game, or know of a way to run those numbers?
There’s a ton of evidence that postseason success is closely correlated with regular-season record. It’s not a hard-and-fast rule — for example, no one looks at the current standings and thinks the Warriors are anything but a heavy favorite to defend their title. But it’s wishful thinking imo to look at the Celtics’ 50-win pace and conclude that they’re something other than a 50-win team. Which makes them a good team, but something less than a bona fide championship contender.Repeat after me: This is the regular season, and regular season results mean almost nothing.
They are coasting, giving guys rest and being extra cautious with banged up guys. Naturally this is going to translate to some games they play with less than 100% effort. We have seen them play well in the playoffs, which gives me optimism that they will play well in the playoffs again this year. Wake me up in April.
Then why are they upset? If it's a conscious thing would they need 3 team meetings?Repeat after me: This is the regular season, and regular season results mean almost nothing.
They are coasting, giving guys rest and being extra cautious with banged up guys. Naturally this is going to translate to some games they play with less than 100% effort. We have seen them play well in the playoffs, which gives me optimism that they will play well in the playoffs again this year. Wake me up in April.
This is an interesting example. If you watch it on tape, I suspect what you will find is that he Cs forced a TO; Yabu ended up with the ball; JB looked for the pass but didn't get it; JB started running down the court; meanwhile Yabu started dribbling but was pressured by a Nets defender; and then Yabu panicked and threw it at JB's back.
I'm pretty sure that you'll see that JB had nothing to do with that one. It's pretty hard to allow a ball to bounce off on'e back in basketball.
JB wasn't the problem here. Not guarding people and not rebounding was the problem.[/QUOTE
Yeah, your read on the Yabu-JB play is exactly what happened.
Brown was a giant positive in the game last nj
Agree with Jimbo here. For whatever reason, IMO it’s bexause he doesn’t show much emotion and it pisses them off, Jaylen seems to be the player the veterans lash out at the most. It’s got to be grating and tiresome for him.Brown could legitimately be sick of being yelled at too. After a while--even if the criticisms have merit--you just want to tell people to get off your fucking back. You're doing the best that you can, so stfu.
These guys can't even rent cars at some places. They're kids. They're gonna act like kids sometimes.
I wasn’t in favor of Kyrie airing things out publicly but Jaylen has every right to be drilled by the veterans in the huddle at the time of the MaMo incident based on Jaylen’s lack of hustle which began the tussle.Agree with Jimbo here. For whatever reason, IMO it’s bexause he doesn’t show much emotion and it pisses them off, Jaylen seems to be the player the veterans lash out at the most. It’s got to be grating and tiresome for him.
Check this outLast year, the team started 16-2. At this point last year, they were 33-10. They would win their 7th game in a row to go 34-10.