Holiday was injured before the trade. The inept Pelicans' front office didn't do enough due diligence prior to making the deal.
Suffice to say, I don't think as highly of Holiday as you do. We've actually seen a fair number of point guards traded lately (Thomas, Dragic, Knight, MCW). I'd rank Jrue as the #4 guy in that group (ahead of MCW).But what did they give up? The 6th pick in a draft that everyone hated at the time? Cleveland couldn't even find a good deal for the #1 pick, never mind the #6. What are the chances they would have ended up with someone better than Holiday? We're in year 3 of Nerlens Noel and he's regressed. And if they didn't have awful injury luck with Holiday and Ryan Anderson both missing most of the season, the 10 pick in 2014 is more like 15 or 16, which is another longshot. If not for unforeseeable injury, I'll take my chances with (non-injured) Jrue Holiday being the best player in that trade.
The #6 pick in almost any draft is a high price to pay by itself, before adding in another pick a year later. That's something you give up for an impact player maybe (not necessarily all-star level), but for Jrue Holiday?
So they should have kept the 6th pick in 2013 and drafted Damian Lillard?I don't know how to answer that really, because of the "weak draft" narrative. The 15 players taken in the 5-7 spots over the last five years have been Exum, Smart, Randle, Len, Noel, McLemore, Robinson, Lillard, Barnes, Valanciunas, Vesely, Biyombo, Cousins, Udoh, and Monroe. I've bolded the ones I'd rather have than Jrue in that group, so it's more than 50/50 in that setting. Plus there's the other pick, plus the fact that they were getting Jrue just in time to pay him...
EDIT: Swapped out 2015 for 2010, since all the 2015 guys are still ??? at this point.
How is this a simple question? How am I supposed to know who they'd have picked? I suggested looking at other drafts to get a baseline of what talent is available at 6, but that's apparently a no-go. So please, explain what approach you think works? The players actually taken at 6 is certainly a much better asset, so does that help?It's a very simple question that you keep avoiding: of the payers available to them in 2013 (and only 2013, other drafts don't count), how likely is it that they would have selected a player better than what a non-injured Jrue Holiday would have given them? This is not hindsight or an after-the-fact narrative. Everyone thought the draft sucked. And they were right.
Looking at other drafts completely hides the fact that this draft was considerably weaker which again, is not just a hindsight opinion. Not all 6th picks are equal. They didn't have the 6th pick in an average draft. They had the 6th pick in the 2013 draft, and only that draft. So, to assess who they might have picked, I'll look at the players selected 6th and shortly afterward (again, in that draft only) and say that it's not that impressive a group. I don't know who they would have picked, but it's not likely it would have been a keeper.How is this a simple question? How am I supposed to know who they'd have picked? I suggested looking at other drafts to get a baseline of what talent is available at 6, but that's apparently a no-go. So please, explain what approach you think works? The players actually taken at 6 is certainly a much better asset, so does that help?
Okay, sure, of the 10 players taken at 6 or later, I'd rather have Noel, McCollum, Adams, Olynyk, and Giannis, with Pope as a tossup. So that's 5 yes, 4 no, 1 maybe for me. Plus, I get them on rookie deals, and also have another draft pick the next year.
Anyone defending this trade is either 1) an oddly big fan of Jrue Holiday; or 2) overthinking it.
He is gonna take some time to develop but man is he skilled and athletic. Duke has never really had a player like him that I can compare him to. I think his floor is Tayshaun PrinceIs Ingram officially our #2 target? I confess I haven't watched much college ball this year but have checked enough box scores to see that Skal has been a disappointment. Ingram's another freaky skinny freshman.
Noel has regressed because he's a 5 and he's playing as a 4. IT's a fit thing. He's still the same player. Exceptional defensively, a true small ball big defensively, protect the rim, and the block and defend out to the perimeter. His hands are bad and he's more of a dunk at the rim than anything else, but he can play pick and roll I think.
He's one of the better defensive players today - in his second season, and part of the regression is also injuries.
Meanwhile Saric is rated as the best overseas player by GMs, shooting 500 on 3s this season and nearly .900 FT when shooting was his biggest concern. I think you're smoking crack if you think that was a good trade for NO.
I wouldn't even consider trading EITHER for Holiday today even ignoring the money difference, let alone both. I can't even imagine a good argument.
This is from a Kevin Pelton piece on ESPN previewing the draft:Oklahoma City is pushing hard for a deal with Orlando to secure the No. 2 pick and draft Indiana's Victor Oladipo, league sources tell Y! Minnesota remains in pursuit of the No. 2 pick, eyeing Oladipo too. In a draft that scares everyone, no one chased harder than IU's guard
It's reasonable to think the Pelicans looked at the draft board and decided there was nobody they could get who projected better than Holiday. The guy who did go at 6 -- Noel -- had big injury issues.By now, you've heard repeatedly about how weak the crop of prospects is for tonight's NBA draft. If the draft class were a player, the weaknesses section of its scouting report would be much longer than the strengths.
What does this even mean? Hot chick in the stands?Hollins said he told his players to foul after Thaddeus Young missed a layup andDwyane Wade got the rebound, but something must have been lost in translation, because by the time the clock stopped again -- following a missed 3-pointer by Goran Dragic -- there were just 11.7 seconds left.
“I told them they needed to foul,” Hollins said after the Nets dropped to 7-18 following a 104-98 loss to the Heat at Barclays Center. “I mean, c’mon. You [have] to foul. I got caught looking at something else, and when I looked over everybody [was] looking at me -- but that stuff happens.”
None of the players claimed to know that they should’ve fouled.
Well it is a valuable skillset to have on your roster and with versatility becoming more prevalent a guy like LeVert should be able to step in and play in this league. If your pick in the 20's turns out to be a rotation player that's a win......as I mentioned above when this player is on a cheap rookie deal that is tremendous value as this player will be typically making close to $10m per under the new cap (assuming an MLE type).Good god, lets not target Evan Turner types at least, okay?
In a league transitioning to wing slashers and perimeter shooters this skill set is critical and one that most all teams are looking to fill in their rotation. I stated why I feel Ainge will go the senior route as he's done in the past although I'm with you on taking fliers late.....this really isn't how Ainge has operated in the past however and now there is a GREATER benefit to go old in the draft. A guy like Turner is a $8-9m player under the new cap when you "could" get that production on a cheap rookie deal if the kid is ready to play right away. It's a huge value play.I don't think much of Evan Turner's skillset, or the value of his "versatility" (can play poorly at so many positions!). But that's neither here nor there really. I'd rather the Celtics target longshots rather than good rotation values with their backend picks. This is related to the "roster crunch" issue.
Not only did Brooklyn reclaim the 3rd slot from NO, they are now a full 3 games behind the 5th slot - some nice wiggle room there.Minnesota beats Brooklyn 100-85 in a tankathon twofer.
That is both a great comp and a tremendous obscure reference....
Agreed on Skal; he's atrocious. He's so soft and passive. I don't trust bigs who can't rebound in traffic. He just wants to float around like a 2015 version of Brad Sellers.
Totally forgot about that pick. Could be huge as this team is hopefully reaching contender status in 3-4 years.I'm already excited to track downward spiral Memphis in a few years for our Jeff Green pick.
Assuming Memphis makes the playoffs this year, they will owe Denver their 1st next year (if they avoid the bottom 5). That means the Celtics could get their pick in 2019 (top 8 protected) or 2020 (top 6 protected) or 2021 (unprotected): http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/future_drafts/detailedI'm already excited to track downward spiral Memphis in a few years for our Jeff Green pick.
Aside from the Nets the sleeper here could be the unraveling of the Mavericks with Deron and Felton leading that "surge."Yes. This year gives us the anticipatory fun of tanking and getting a good draft pick, but without the suffering through brutal loss after depressing loss to get there. This could be addicting, so it's a good thing the Celtics have the Nets picks for the next few years as well.
It would be highly unlikely for Dallas to finish with one of the 7 worst records in the league with 9 teams and 4 full games separating them from that spot. That slot currently projects a 32-50 record meaning Dallas would need to go 17-37 the rest of the way to get to that level.The Dallas pick is protected (1 - 7) so only so much unraveling can be hoped for.
So... not happening unless they find a way to bring Rondo back?It would be highly unlikely for Dallas to finish with one of the 7 worst records in the league with 9 teams and 4 full games separating them from that spot. That slot currently projects a 32-50 record meaning Dallas would need to go 17-37 the rest of the way to get to that level.
You read me like a book!So... not happening unless they find a way to bring Rondo back?
And they finish the season with something like 18 of 26 on the road beginning with a 9 game West to East swing in late February.Things were looking bad for the Nets pick for a while there, but now they've got a full 2 game cushion for the 3rd worst record, and their schedule for the rest of December and January looks really tough.