He has a wife. He has two sons. He has millions. He has everything a man could possibly want in life, and all of it at just 22 years old. Hall of Fame to Hall of Stupid.
You're right. We dont know. The power/control dynamic might not be a precise fit here.Plus we have to consider the timeline of when it happened. Nothing is an excuse for what he did. but it's a different thought process.
But yeas, sometimes it is about control and certain sick instincts rather than attraction.
I wonder if we'll see a lot of those, absent a very-close-in-age situation (which the rumors suggest are unlikely.)I think I'm just pre-emptively pissed at what I suspect will be numerous stories of "what [*he*] could have been..."
The small head is more important than the big head - a tale as old as time.He has a wife. He has two sons. He has millions. He has everything a man could possibly want in life, and all of it at just 22 years old. Hall of Fame to Hall of Stupid.
I mean, there’s a lot more willfulness in fucking minors than there is in doing some blow and crashing a boat. I’ll let you guess what this upright citizen can empathize with a lot more.I wonder if we'll see a lot of those, absent a very-close-in-age situation (which the rumors suggest are unlikely.)
But we might. That drunken coked-up dickhead Jose Fernandez still gets the "tragedy" treatment from some quarters, even after killing two of his friends: https://www.barstoolsports.com/blog/950933/the-tribute-to-jose-fernandez-outside-of-marlins-park-has-been-removed-and-replaced-with-a-plaque-not-a-statue
“Crashing a boat” is doing a lot of work hereI mean, there’s a lot more willfulness in fucking minors than there is in doing some blow and crashing a boat. I’ll let you guess what this upright citizen can empathize with a lot more.
Yeah, I'm sure his buddies were stone cold sober.I wonder if we'll see a lot of those, absent a very-close-in-age situation (which the rumors suggest are unlikely.)
But we might. That drunken coked-up dickhead Jose Fernandez still gets the "tragedy" treatment from some quarters, even after killing two of his friends: https://www.barstoolsports.com/blog/950933/the-tribute-to-jose-fernandez-outside-of-marlins-park-has-been-removed-and-replaced-with-a-plaque-not-a-statue
Yeah the outcome was terrible and operating cars or boats while intoxicated is shitty and something I don’t think I’d do now, but at 23 or however old he was…. I can’t get down on a guy for doing something I did just because I got luckier than he did.“Crashing a boat” is doing a lot of work here
He killed two people, dude.
Two people who were adults, knew what he was doing, and went along for the ride anyway.“Crashing a boat” is doing a lot of work here
He killed two people, dude.
A group of friends coked up and drunk, doing something stupid? If this doesn't ring true to you, I question how much you enjoyed your youth.Two people who were adults, knew what he was doing, and went along for the ride anyway.
If you can't see the difference between that and what Wander is being accused of, well, I don't really know what to tell you, man.
I mean, there’s a lot more willfulness in fucking minors than there is in doing some blow and crashing a boat. I’ll let you guess what this upright citizen can empathize with a lot more.
Yeah, I'm sure his buddies were stone cold sober.
I'm all aboard the "fuck Wander" train, but where are we at with accusations right now?
The first one we're all fairly comfortable with. Is there just a second one, or is there multiple? Do we know who the second person is? What the allegations are?
I'm not trying to defend him, just trying to understand what is actually out there right now.
Yeah the outcome was terrible and operating cars or boats while intoxicated is shitty and something I don’t think I’d do now, but at 23 or however old he was…. I can’t get down on a guy for doing something I did just because I got luckier than he did.
On the other hand, if Wander was hooking up with multiple underage girls….
I judge more on intent than outcome, but reasonable legal scholars differ.
Two people who were adults, knew what he was doing, and went along for the ride anyway.
If you can't see the difference between that and what Wander is being accused of, well, I don't really know what to tell you, man.
Our collective misspent youths notwithstanding, I think it’s pretty clear that @Rovin Romine and @Ale Xander aren’t equating the two situations, because “Example of homicidal asshole lionized as a tragic wasted talent,” doesn’t really require them to.A group of friends coked up and drunk, doing something stupid? If this doesn't ring true to you, I question how much you enjoyed your youth.
I'd feel a lot more sorry for Jose Fernandez's passengers if he was the Captain of a Staten Island ferry or something and the passengers were just regular commuters who had no control of the situation. In reality though, Jose's friends were adults who were stoned as well and went along with the boat ride. They all had agency of the situation.Two people who were adults, knew what he was doing, and went along for the ride anyway.
If you can't see the difference between that and what Wander is being accused of, well, I don't really know what to tell you, man.
The deafening silence from the MLBPA sure seems worth noting here.Franco immediately denied the allegations in an Instagram post.
There’s not enough reliable information about this for me to form an opinion either way. But MLB doing the right thing, suspending Franco pending investigation, and Franco accepting that suspension isn’t evidence that he’s guilty.
As noted before your post, I wasn't comparing the severity of the two situations.I'd feel a lot more sorry for Jose Fernandez's passengers if he was the Captain of a Staten Island ferry or something and the passengers were just regular commuters who had no control of the situation. In reality though, Jose's friends were adults who were stoned as well and went along with the boat ride. They all had agency of the situation.
The Wander Franco situation is completely different. If what is rumored is true then his victims did not have control or agency of the situation. Hopefully this did not have to be explained.
As far as I can tell, we have some pictures on the internet from one girl and a report that another girl has filed a complaint (it's my understanding that this complaint was filed prior to the pictures being posted).The first one we're all fairly comfortable with. Is there just a second one, or is there multiple? Do we know who the second person is? What the allegations are?
I'm not trying to defend him, just trying to understand what is actually out there right now.
While I'm sure the victim's family might have some input, it's probably one factor among many MLB would use when considering sanctions.As far as I can tell, we have some pictures on the internet from one girl and a report that another girl has filed a complaint (it's my understanding that this complaint was filed prior to the pictures being posted).
That's about it.
One thing I am reading for the first from this article:
However, criminal matters in the [DR] are more in line to civil cases, where the person charged with the crime provides payment to the victim's family, who then tell law enforcement if they are satisfied and whether they want to pursue criminal charges.
How offended were they when charges against Bauer were dropped and he was essentially black balled from the league?Won’t the MLBPA be heavily opposed if investigation concludes and there are no charges filed and he still can’t play?
Obviously DR law applies if the act was in DR but if they don’t press charges, why should he still be suspended if FL laws allow the act if the older person is 23 or under? (Provided the victim is 16+)
Im assuming DR presses charges if she’s 14 or something but what if they decline because she’s 16or 17 (and therefore still Legal under FL R&J law)
Or what if they can’t prove sexual contact and therefore don’t press charges. Why would he still be suspended?
Brought and dropped is different from never been brought at all. Plus there was way more smoke (and actual evidence in general, and actual evidence of violence and non-consensual acts [in the layman term] ) in the Bauer case.How offended were they when charges against Bauer were dropped and he was essentially black balled from the league?
Sleeping dogs lay or something.....
MLB conducted it's own investigation too, didn't it? Bauer wasn't suspended because the police charged him with a crime (whether charges were dropped or not). He was suspended because MLB investigators concluded he'd done something worth being suspended over. I'm sure the same thing could happen if Franco escapes criminal prosecution but there's still evidence of his having done something untoward.Brought and dropped is different from never been brought at all. Plus there was way more smoke (and actual evidence in general, and actual evidence of violence and non-consensual acts [in the layman term] ) in the Bauer case.
Likely yes. Also, there were three sets of accusations of sexual violence in Bauer's case that MLB investigated (one wasn't made public until after the investigation). https://www.latimes.com/sports/dodgers/story/2022-04-29/trevor-bauer-accused-sexual-assault-third-womanMLB conducted it's own investigation too, didn't it? Bauer wasn't suspended because the police charged him with a crime (whether charges were dropped or not). He was suspended because MLB investigators concluded he'd done something worth being suspended over. I'm sure the same thing could happen if Franco escapes criminal prosecution but there's still evidence of his having done something untoward.
We also have no idea what evidence will come up from the Franco case...Brought and dropped is different from never been brought at all. Plus there was way more smoke (and actual evidence in general, and actual evidence of violence and non-consensual acts [in the layman term] ) in the Bauer case.
There's still not much in terms of details -- timeframe, age, nature of the relationship, evidence, etc. Was the accuser 17 at the time when Wander was 18 or 19, or did this relationship occur with the minor recently? Some folks appear comfortable equating accusations with guilt (I've certainly been guilty of this in the past), but I'm trying to avoid that here, even amidst the keyboard virtue-signalers.Sounds rough man. Hope this article about a third accuser helps:
https://www.yahoo.com/sports/wander-franco-reportedly-facing-third-accuser-in-dominican-republic-223040582.html
I mean, you came into a thread where an adult is credibly accused of having relationships with underage girls and are attacking posters for "keyboard virtue-signaling" while complaining this hurts your fantasy team. I'm not sure who you think you are making look bad, but rest assured it is just yourself.There's still not much in terms of details -- timeframe, age, nature of the relationship, evidence, etc. Was the accuser 17 at the time when Wander was 18 or 19, or did this relationship occur with the minor recently? Some folks appear comfortable equating accusations with guilt (I've certainly been guilty of this in the past), but I'm trying to avoid that here, even amidst the keyboard virtue-signalers.
However, I'm sure that my patience will be tested if the accusations grow further, as they did with Watson.
Sorry, but this is a classic strawman tactic. Please re-read my original post. I stated that I was following the story as a result of being a general MLB fan and having rostered Wander in fantasy, not to "complain" about his unavailability. This doesn't change the fact that, as of today, details/evidence remain vague and incomplete, which makes it difficult to formulate an opinion on potential guilt.I mean, you came into a thread where an adult is credibly accused of having relationships with underage girls and are attacking posters for "keyboard virtue-signaling" while complaining this hurts your fantasy team. I'm not sure who you think you are making look bad, but rest assured it is just yourself.
I've been trying to follow this story as an MLB fan, as well as a fantasy baseball participant who happens to roster Wander in his (freakin') dynasty league, but with such little/vague information available, it's been challenging to formulate an opinion. Over the last week or so, details on any progress have been non-existent.
You're talking about sports. Not even sports. Fantasy sports. The word fantasy is in the name. I would think that would be sufficient to tell you how serious you should take it relative to the real world.There's still not much in terms of details -- timeframe, age, nature of the relationship, evidence, etc. Was the accuser 17 at the time when Wander was 18 or 19, or did this relationship occur with the minor recently? Some folks appear comfortable equating accusations with guilt (I've certainly been guilty of this in the past), but I'm trying to avoid that here, even amidst the keyboard virtue-signalers.
However, I'm sure that my patience will be tested if the accusations grow further, as they did with Watson.
Then don't. No one's asking you to.This doesn't change the fact that, as of today, details/evidence remain vague and incomplete, which makes it difficult to formulate an opinion on potential guilt.
This makes a lot of sense. Thank you.And "we haven't seen much in terms of details" ≠ "there's not much in terms of details". The allegations are along the lines of child abuse / child sexual assault. There's a criminal investigation. There's an MLB investigation. They don't update fantasy managers in real time, but hey,.
I appreciate this, as well!... Thoughts and Prayers™ to your team.
"Guilt" can mean a lot of different things. Like, is he going to be found guilty of a crime in a court of law? Or would a civil case against him prevail? Or, regardless, do you think, as a matter of private opinion based on credible reporting/public facts, that he did something you find morally reprehensible?This doesn't change the fact that, as of today, details/evidence remain vague and incomplete, which makes it difficult to formulate an opinion on potential guilt.
Why is it urgent to you to formulate an opinion? If you're having trouble formulating an opinion, just wait. You are not obligated to have an opinion before you are ready to have an opinion.I've been trying to follow this story as an MLB fan, as well as a fantasy baseball participant who happens to roster Wander in his (freakin') dynasty league, but with such little/vague information available, it's been challenging to formulate an opinion. Over the last week or so, details on any progress have been non-existent.
I've been trying to follow this story as an MLB fan, as well as a fantasy baseball participant who happens to roster Wander in his (freakin') dynasty league, but with such little/vague information available, it's been challenging to formulate an opinion. Over the last week or so, details on any progress have been non-existent.
There's still not much in terms of details -- timeframe, age, nature of the relationship, evidence, etc. Was the accuser 17 at the time when Wander was 18 or 19, or did this relationship occur with the minor recently? Some folks appear comfortable equating accusations with guilt (I've certainly been guilty of this in the past), but I'm trying to avoid that here, even amidst the keyboard virtue-signalers.
However, I'm sure that my patience will be tested if the accusations grow further, as they did with Watson.
I thought the first post might've been tongue in cheek, but the second and third post are classic whataboutit posts. Virtually every article about the multiple allegations state the girls were underage at the time. How many accusations are enough to say, oh, okay, I guess there might be something off here? Is your assumption that the 2nd and 3rd are unfounded? Made up? Questionable due to timing? Is the threshold of worrying about a dynasty league 5 allegations? 6? Or maybe the eventual court details will convince you it's not a sham. I'm sure your league will give you special dispensation to add/drop for your poor luck.Sorry, but this is a classic strawman tactic. Please re-read my original post. I stated that I was following the story as a result of being a general MLB fan and having rostered Wander in fantasy, not to "complain" about his unavailability. This doesn't change the fact that, as of today, details/evidence remain vague and incomplete, which makes it difficult to formulate an opinion on potential guilt.
This assumption was/is a faulty one.Why is it urgent to you to formulate an opinion? If you're having trouble formulating an opinion, just wait. You are not obligated to have an opinion before you are ready to have an opinion.
Nobody is required to have an opinion about anything. Just sit on the sidelines without an opinion. Maybe something will happen and you will find it easier to have one, one way or the other.
It did seem like you were asking whether Franco will be a valuable asset in a dynasty league, in which case I would gobsmacked if you really can't understand the pushback.
I agree with this. Previously, there was suspicion of involvement with one minor (with a popular Twitter "rumor" circulating that it was when Wander was 17) and another possible complaint. Further complaints make it challenging for me to remain patient and not assume guilt.If theres smoke, theres usually fire. Theres probably not a whole lot of details becuase it actually involves minors.
Whataboutism is defined as: the technique or practice of responding to an accusation or difficult question by making a counteraccusation or raising a different issue.I thought the first post might've been tongue in cheek, but the second and third post are classic whataboutit posts.
I'll manage!If the only three points you’ve managed to make after several hours of posting in a thread like this are “it’s disappointing we can’t yet form an opinion about this person’s guilt,” “it’s important not to equate accusations with guilt,” and “all of you are virtue signaling,” you should probably be prepared for others to pick up on the dog whistle.
"Virtue-signaling"?There's still not much in terms of details -- timeframe, age, nature of the relationship, evidence, etc. Was the accuser 17 at the time when Wander was 18 or 19, or did this relationship occur with the minor recently? Some folks appear comfortable equating accusations with guilt (I've certainly been guilty of this in the past), but I'm trying to avoid that here, even amidst the keyboard virtue-signalers.
However, I'm sure that my patience will be tested if the accusations grow further, as they did with Watson.
That's a mic drop.My 6x6 league has kid fucking as a category.
If more people did this it wouldn’t be a debate.
That's the tricky thing, isn't it? Many times, our quick judgment can prove accurate. And we're often applauded for being fastidious in our determination, making it quite addicting. But, then, there's a Manti Te'o type of situation every so often. Historically, POC have been granted far less patience with due process, which I'm also sensitive to."Virtue-signaling"?
No other explanations are needed.
I hope your patience passes the test.
Honestly, you should quit while you're behind.That's a mic drop.
That's the tricky thing, isn't it? Many times, our quick judgment can prove accurate. And we're often applauded for being fastidious in our determination, making it quite addicting. But, then, there's a Manti Te'o type of situation every so often. Historically, POC have been granted far less patience with due process, which I'm also sensitive to.
Anyway, for the sake of general society, MLB, and my fantasy baseball team, I'm hoping that the investigation soon uncovers the truth and that Wander's involvement with teenagers occurred while he was also a teenager and within the law.
Please keep the updates coming!
ST. PETERSBURG — Though Wander Franco missed the final 42 games of the season following allegations of improper relationships with minors, the Rays shortstop received one of the biggest payouts from baseball’s pre-arbitration bonus pool.
Franco made an additional $706,761, which was 13th most of the 101 players who got paid through the program, implemented under the 2022 labor agreement to funnel more money to players who don’t have enough service time to be eligible for arbitration; they typically are younger and making close to the league minimum.
Setting aside his off-field troubles for a moment, you'd think that the pre-arb bonus pool thing wouldn't apply to a guy that signed an 11 year contract that paid him $2M last season (more than twice the typical pre-arb salary) and guarantees him nine figures over the life of the deal.