UFC/MMA in 2016
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Good call. Now does she go down the path of past beaten UFC champions and fails that drug test?
Not gonna lie, I'm kind glad she got wrecked. The hype train was unbearable and she was way too full of herself.
Why is boxing so hard to pick up? You always see these mixed martial artists bring in some world famous boxing coach and after a 3 month camp everyone is hyping up their hands until they get outclassed by a real boxer.
Yeah. Once she started talking about beating up Kim K. and being in my news feed every other day she got a little yawny. Like I said, she's got a head start on other female MMA fighters, but she's not an evolutionary athlete. Scrubs like Liddell used to dominate the UFC too before the men got their shit together. 10 years from now Ronda won't be Pele or Ray Robinson, she'll be John Sullivan.
Anything is hard to pick up in 3 months. You lift. How easy and intuitive a lift is the squat or bench? How mich do you still learn about its technique year to year? And that's not with having to dodge punches.
I think she is in the hospital. That probably broke her jaw.
The link I posted earlier in the thread described exactly how she would lose to a fighter like Holm:
What terrible coaching. Rhonda clearly wasn't in great shape, under the false illusion that she could trade with Holm and had no answer for the kicks. She failed to realize the fight she was in, the best example being how she acted when she got Holm on the ground. Rather than establish position (I think she could have gotten Holm's back) and take the break that she clearly needed and put her weight on Holm, she went straight to grabbing for arms, allowing Holm to get up.
What a huge night for JW MMA.
The link I posted earlier in the thread described exactly how she would lose to a fighter like Holm:
What terrible coaching. Rhonda clearly wasn't in great shape, under the false illusion that she could trade with Holm and had no answer for the kicks. She failed to realize the fight she was in, the best example being how she acted when she got Holm on the ground. Rather than establish position (I think she could have gotten Holm's back) and take the break that she clearly needed and put her weight on Holm, she went straight to grabbing for arms, allowing Holm to get up.
What a huge night for JW MMA.
I know it's difficult to change your gameplan mid fight, but you'd think they would have backed off a little bit on the aggression when it became clear that she'd be punched square in the face every time she closed in.
Do they not plan for contingencies in these fights, or is that a no-no because you don't want any negative thoughts in your head? To me, it only seems practical to adjust based on how the fight is going.
Do they not plan for contingencies in these fights, or is that a no-no because you don't want any negative thoughts in your head? To me, it only seems practical to adjust based on how the fight is going.
Yep, TMZ got it, she's in the hospital.
http://www.tmz.com/2015/11/14/ronda-rousey-hospitalized-after-brutal-knock-out/
http://www.tmz.com/2015/11/14/ronda-rousey-hospitalized-after-brutal-knock-out/
I'm so regretting not betting +800.
I don't want to take anything away from Holm because that was a great fight, but it shows you how bad the women's divisions are. That Ronda can run though the division twice, then get chopped up by the first good striker. Obviously it's a different fight if Ronda gets more time on the mat.
I can't wait for Holm Rousey 2.
I don't want to take anything away from Holm because that was a great fight, but it shows you how bad the women's divisions are. That Ronda can run though the division twice, then get chopped up by the first good striker. Obviously it's a different fight if Ronda gets more time on the mat.
I can't wait for Holm Rousey 2.
Marciano you were dead on about Rousey. Her hands were never that good and I figured the only way she could get beat is if he faced a striker like Holm and tried to fight the strikers fight. I think her quick KO in her last fight maybe gave her a little too much self-confidence in her striking skills and that she could trade blows with an experienced hand fighter like Holm.
I think this is a great moment for Women's MMA actually. Rousey is the superstar of the division but the question of depth in the sport made me roll my eyes when people droned on and on about her dominance. Now that someone has kicked her ass, it should grow the division and add some real intrigue for the rematch.
Yeah, you always have a backup plan. You don't know what your opponent's going to do. Hell, you don't know what you're ultimately going to do. You try to peak for a fight, but you never know if you're going to be sluggish, sick, etc.
Ronda will get a rematch because she's still the face of the division, and by division I mean female MMA in general. Plus, people are already lining up to make excuses for her loss - cocky, out of shape, bad game plan, etc. Fact is, she's just not that great. She's a pioneer, and a great judo practitioner, but as I've been saying for awhile now, 10 years from now nobody will give a shit about her and what women who grew up training MMA will be doing in the octagon will make her meager skills look like Tank Abbot or Chuck Liddell or dudes we were all convinced were the baddest men on the planet who couldn't make it out of local circuits in small cities these days.
But, look, she's got a chance in the rematch because she's got one great skill - like the hedgehog, or the fox, I always screw that up. That arm bar is nasty, and she did a lot of damage with it. But, she's just going to have to take 25 minutes and wait for the right moment to lay it on, and she's going to have to be otherwise perfect.
And perfect is different in combat sports than in other sports. Remember when people said the Pats had to be perfect to beat the Rams in the SB? Well, they missed blocks and tackles and passes and committed penalties and still won. You can be a pitcher and throw a shitty pitch and have the hitter still miss it because it's inherently very difficult to hit a round ball with a bat. Or you can give up 5 runs in the 8th and still have the 9th to make it up. Other sports have defined durations, and once you're off the playground, there's no mercy rule.
Fight sports, you fuck up and it's lights out and over. Being perfect means not taking that punch or kick for 3 or 5 minutes at a time. And that's a really, really long time when you're in a ring or whatever shape trying not to get hit. That's a lot of close calls, that's a lot of anticipation and reflex and skill, and Ronda's gonna have to hope she has all that and can wait for the one or two times that Holm isn't perfect so she can lay on that arm bar. One of my favorite boxing matches ever was Calzaghe vs. Left Hook Lacy, who was just destroying people going into the fight against this fairly unknown Welsh fighter who'd never really fought outside of Europe. Lacy had just devastating power and everyone knew if he caught Calzaghe once it was over. But Calzaghe was perfect, he moved Lacy to the right, kept him offbalance, etc. and won a fight where he had to be perfect. That's the kind of exhibition Ronda will need.
Frankly, I don't think she has it in her. Her reflexes never seemed super sharp to me. She's not in there dodging punches like Willie Pep. She gets hit square even by a chump like Correa. She's never going to be a better boxer than she is now. It's like learning a foreign language; you're not going to get too far past a certain age, and really, I'll say again, she really fucking sucks at boxing. At the end of the day, she's going to have to tuck her chin, clench her fists and weather the storm till that opening comes, and when it does, hope she's quick and alert and resilient enough to spring for it.
Yeah, this is exactly the shit I was talking about. You're in close to your opponent, a hook should never leave your face. Look how wide Rousey throws that punch. Like a barroom brawler. You should hook - especially in tight - from your chin. Get the power from leveraging your weight through your hips like swinging a bat. The fist/arm is just a lever to deliver that force. By going wide she leaves her face totally open and takes longer to land the punch. In the meantime, Holm goes right up the middle with a short punch, gets there first and ends the fight. That's boxing 101. I've taught kids that learn that the first day. Liddell used to do the same shit before Rampage got him, and that's the crap I was talking about Gustafson doing when he got got by Rumble when everyone was giving me a hard time there.
I feel weird even saying something about boxing in a thread with an expert like Marciano, but these Ronda shadowboxing gifs are so fucking hilarious I might have picked her to lose yesterday's fight had I seen them beforehand:
I'm a casual fight fan, but the parallels from Rousey/Holm and Tyson/Douglas are just so obvious. Mike had one style and strategy going into Douglas (which was dominantly successful), got exposed by a guy in epic shape, long left jab, and boom. Thing is, it all looked so obvious in hindsight. Same with Rousey. Her last fight was the first PPV I purchased and I came out of that thinking, "these gloves are small, if she keeps charging like that, she's going to be vulnerable to a girl who can punch". Exactly what happened. Once you take away the momentum and survive the first few charges, you've got here where you want her.
With Mike we were all still holding out hope he'd land that one big uppercut. I'm assuming the Rousey crowd was thinking, even in the 2nd, she just needs to get her on the ground.
My only question for Marciano is regarding the learning curve for boxing. I understand elevating the boxing/punching aspect is difficult, but can she improve as a defensive boxer in a short amount of time? Like before the rematch. As ironic as it seems, I'd be watching some Mayweather fights before the next match if I were her.
With Mike we were all still holding out hope he'd land that one big uppercut. I'm assuming the Rousey crowd was thinking, even in the 2nd, she just needs to get her on the ground.
My only question for Marciano is regarding the learning curve for boxing. I understand elevating the boxing/punching aspect is difficult, but can she improve as a defensive boxer in a short amount of time? Like before the rematch. As ironic as it seems, I'd be watching some Mayweather fights before the next match if I were her.
Absolutely. She's Royce Gracie 20 years later. She was way ahead of the game with her one superior skill, but eventually people with other good skills caught up and went right by them.
Right there with you; I know less than nothing about this sport, but wow that was horrific, holy shit.
Those shadowboxing gifs are absurd. Look how far forward her head is. It should be over her center and back, but she's pushing it forward unguarded and cutting down the distance her opponent has to go to reach it.
As for Paul's question - yeah, she's so bad she can improve. Stuff like above you can work on pretty quickly. The problem is in a sport like MMA, she probably isn't going to be able to devote enough time to that one particular discipline to improve. And, even if she improves, she's still not going to be able to stand in with a world class boxer like Holm.
As for Paul's question - yeah, she's so bad she can improve. Stuff like above you can work on pretty quickly. The problem is in a sport like MMA, she probably isn't going to be able to devote enough time to that one particular discipline to improve. And, even if she improves, she's still not going to be able to stand in with a world class boxer like Holm.
I think your point about the mature mens game vs. immature women's game is backwards. Let's look at the bios of the champions:
Male champs:
Mighty Mouse - Wrestler and Track athlete who picked up Mui Thai after high school
Dillashaw - standout collegiate wrestler,
Aldo - Capoeira in the streets as a kid, his first professional training was in Jiu Jitsu
Dos Anjos - Jiu Jitsu from the age of 9
Lawler - Karate as a kid, state tourney wrestling finalist in Iowa, grabbed up my Miletich at the age of 16
Weidman - All American Wrestler in both Greco and Freestyle
Cormier- Olympic Wrestler, world grand prix champion wrestler
Werdum - Jiu Jitsu world champion, probably the best JJ game of anyone in MMA today
Women's champs:
- JJ - world champion kick boxer
-Holm - world champion boxer
It seem like the immature women's game is the only place pure strikers whose clinch and ground game amounts to getting out of the situation can survive. If you are trying to build the perfect champ, you find a great (or at least very unique) athlete , who has years of Wrestling / BJJ / Judo training and some pattern of success and then teach them to strike.
As for the bolded, are you saying she can never stand and trade with Holm, which I think is true, or are you saying she can't beat Holm? Unless the legitimate concerns about her conditioning or ability to energy manage for 25 minutes are accurate, I have no doubt she wins at least half the time against either Holm or Cyborg.
On a more important note, smart people (besides Ronda's mom) are already calling for Taverdyan to be canned and Ronda to move onto a coach with a real track record. Like I said last night, what a win for the Jackson / Winklejohn team.
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2015/11/15/9737632/ufc-193-opinion-ronda-rousey-holm-edmond-tarverdyan-mma-editorial
The problem isn't that she's Royce. It's that she doesn't know she's Royce. Sometime, since the last Miesha fight, she decided she was a great striker. She isn't and never has been. Miesha was actually outstriking her, and Miesha is good, but not anything like Holm. Her boxing was garbage in the McMann fight. Alexis Davis and Bethe Correia and those fights were a joke. They said nothing for Ronda's striking. Zigano was all Rousey's strengths. No striking. So IDK when or why it happened, but that's the problem. Maybe it's Tyson fawning over her mitt work and having all this media pumping her up, IDK. We've seen the result, and it's ugly.
He's saying what's true. Obviously Ronda can beat Holm, but it's not going to be by outstriking her.
IDK if just changing coaches is some quick fix. The problem is Ronda's enormous ego. I don't think that someone that isn't going to cater to it will work. At least with Edmond we know it's works a little, and she listens to him. A new coach could just blow the whole thing up.
Gunfighter, I love you, but you're missing my point. What I'm saying is the men's game is mature because there are 1,000 of dudes in every major city training jiu jitsu or MMA. The guys in the UFC have already been through a helluva crucible. Women aren't involved in combat sports training to nearly the same extent, so the women at the top now aren't necessarily incredible athletes or the best we'll see; they're the women who got through the other small amount of women who started training 10ish years ago. Now that the sport is becoming more popular and lucrative, we'll see the cream of the crop of women athletes come along with more skills and athleticism than RR.
And, as I said before, RR can win a rematch, but not by going toe to toe with Holm. She will never, ever have her striking skill. She needs to lay back and wait for Holm to mess up and lock in that arm bar. She has an elite skill, and any athlete with any elite skill always has a shot.
And, as I said before, RR can win a rematch, but not by going toe to toe with Holm. She will never, ever have her striking skill. She needs to lay back and wait for Holm to mess up and lock in that arm bar. She has an elite skill, and any athlete with any elite skill always has a shot.
Like Marvin said, it's hard getting up at 7 am to do roadwork when you're sleeping in silk sheets.
Yeah, I agree with both of those things.
If you didn't, I recommend listening to the Joe Rogan podcast with Ronda and Taverdyan from August. He is clearly the source of her overconfidence with her boxing skills, and he is a boxing coach, so putting her faith in him seems reasonable. His arrogance and disregard for all potential challengers is off putting in the podcast and helps illustrate how she could get in this bad place. I just re-watched the fight and I am stunned how gassed she looked four minutes in.
I did. I also listened to the first one, her episode of the Jay Mohr podcast, and I've heard all the discussions about her on the fight cast and the fighter and the kid podcast. I think the overconfidence starts with her and won't change with a new coach. She's not a stable person. She's very emotional. It's fight or flight, and at least right now she's fighting. A new coach that doesn't know how to handle her could make her quit.
For her, hopefully this is a wake up call for the striking and defense.
If getting KTFO with a kick to the head isn't a cure for overconfidence, I don't what is. It will be interesting to see how if and how she adjusts. I won't be surprised if she changes camps.
Yeah, it's funny, I've never seen someone go from noon to night so quickly or anyone's loss involve so much glee. It's like if Brady had lost the SB last year, but he was already mostly disliked beforehand. Seemed every one loved Ronda till her face hit the canvas.
Phenomenal fight breakdown. Holm won the fight by surviving the clinch twice and getting away from a position where Ronda has beaten many other women after she took Holm down. Excellent, excellent coaching by the JW MMA guys.
Obviously the biggest question in the sport is where Rousey goes if she leaves Taverdyan like she should. My initial though is that AKA has had championship success with guys like Cormier and Velasquez who have one dominant non-striking skill. Watching the video, I wonder if Tri Star (GSP, Florian, Rory McDonald) might be the spot, though it is hard to see a SoCal girl like Ronda moving to Montreal.
Obviously the biggest question in the sport is where Rousey goes if she leaves Taverdyan like she should. My initial though is that AKA has had championship success with guys like Cormier and Velasquez who have one dominant non-striking skill. Watching the video, I wonder if Tri Star (GSP, Florian, Rory McDonald) might be the spot, though it is hard to see a SoCal girl like Ronda moving to Montreal.
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Funny you posted this. I just rewatched the fight, and Ronda definitely had a hold of Holm's arm 2-3 times in the fight. She definitely has a shot in the rematch.