The TrevorEnding Story: needs shoulder surgery, out for the year (4/9 update)

The_Dali

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Sorry, but one fluky injury on a diving play doesn't really translate to "he can't/shouldn't play the position anymore." He's no more vulnerable to an injury like that than someone five or ten years his junior. Do we think that if, say, Rafaela had made a similar dive and landed in a similar way, he wouldn't have suffered a similar injury?
See, I completely disagree here. While this could be considered “flukey” it also could be that his body simply couldn’t take the trauma, yet someone who is 10 years younger might have avoided the same injury.

It doesn’t make him a bad person or a terrible player, but at some point we have to face up that maybe his body is not able to take as much punishment as a younger body.

Right?
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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See, I completely disagree here. While this could be considered “flukey” it also could be that his body simply couldn’t take the trauma, yet someone who is 10 years younger might have avoided the same injury.

It doesn’t make him a bad person or a terrible player, but at some point we have to face up that maybe his body is not able to take as much punishment as a younger body.

Right?
No, not right. His age has nothing to do with the injury he suffered. Youth does not equal invincibility. Again, if a younger player dove in the same way and landed the same way, he's not magically avoiding the same injury just because he's younger.
 

azsoxpatsfan

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See, I completely disagree here. While this could be considered “flukey” it also could be that his body simply couldn’t take the trauma, yet someone who is 10 years younger might have avoided the same injury.

It doesn’t make him a bad person or a terrible player, but at some point we have to face up that maybe his body is not able to take as much punishment as a younger body.

Right?
Sure, it could be that, but thats not how dislocations or joints work. You think a 21 year old dives like that and is perfectly fine, but by the time he’s 31 his body has just decomposed to that degree? Come on that’s nonsense
 

chrisfont9

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No, not right. His age has nothing to do with the injury he suffered. Youth does not equal invincibility. Again, if a younger player dove in the same way and landed the same way, he's not magically avoiding the same injury just because he's younger.
I agree with you. We as a forum aren't in agreement on what "injury prone" means or whether it exists. A lot of it is "he was hurt before so he's more likely to be hurt again," which isn't always wrong (e.g. aging joints, deteriorating cartilage), but it's often pure speculation. None of Story's past injuries are suggestive of an enhanced risk of future injuries, particularly this one. Just calling him "injury prone in general" seems pretty demeaning to a pro athlete, most of whom do endless tedious things to keep their bodies functioning at an elite level. Not that everyone means it that way, but when Story hears it, it must be pretty offensive to him. People can say whatever they want, but to me it's more accurate to call guys like Story or Sale snake-bitten than injury prone.
 

Otis Foster

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See, I completely disagree here. While this could be considered “flukey” it also could be that his body simply couldn’t take the trauma, yet someone who is 10 years younger might have avoided the same injury.

It doesn’t make him a bad person or a terrible player, but at some point we have to face up that maybe his body is not able to take as much punishment as a younger body.

Right?
No.

You are talking about a player who is still in his physical prime, chronologically, at least. He’s also been on the shelf for the better part of two years, so there’s that much less mileage on his body.

If you’re going to venture an opinion in this forum, be prepared to back it up with hard evidence. The use of the word ‘could’ is a tip off that you’re just speculating on an issue that is not factually verifiable.
 

joe dokes

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See, I completely disagree here. While this could be considered “flukey” it also could be that his body simply couldn’t take the trauma, yet someone who is 10 years younger might have avoided the same injury.

It doesn’t make him a bad person or a terrible player, but at some point we have to face up that maybe his body is not able to take as much punishment as a younger body.

Right?
"Might" is doing a lot of work here. An immature 21-year old, having been gifted with extraordinary natural ability, might never have worked out a day in his life and might have suffered an immediately catastrophic career-ending injury. Fortunately, the older, wiser Story has been working hard, etc etc, which might have prevented a much worse injury.
 

RS2004foreever

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I agree with you. We as a forum aren't in agreement on what "injury prone" means or whether it exists. A lot of it is "he was hurt before so he's more likely to be hurt again," which isn't always wrong (e.g. aging joints, deteriorating cartilage), but it's often pure speculation. None of Story's past injuries are suggestive of an enhanced risk of future injuries, particularly this one. Just calling him "injury prone in general" seems pretty demeaning to a pro athlete, most of whom do endless tedious things to keep their bodies functioning at an elite level. Not that everyone means it that way, but when Story hears it, it must be pretty offensive to him. People can say whatever they want, but to me it's more accurate to call guys like Story or Sale snake-bitten than injury prone.
Yep. There are injuries that are a function of agings joints etc. This injury was not that.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Yep. There are injuries that are a function of agings joints etc. This injury was not that.
A shortstop has to dive for balls a couple of hundred times during the course of a season. It's fair to say that Story's body looks to be incapable of that kind of workload if he's getting severely hurt 8 games in.

Fluke or no fluke, injury-prone or non-injury prone, this is the 3rd or 4th major injury he's had in 3 seasons. The prognosis on this latest injury seems to be all over the place so it bears watching to see the actual effects, but none of this is a positive development.

At a certain point the results are the results. He's injured a lot.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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A shortstop has to dive for balls a couple of hundred times during the course of a season. It's fair to say that Story's body looks to be incapable of that kind of workload if he's getting severely hurt 8 games in.
If this injury were a result of repetitive actions, like his shoulder wore out because of diving hundreds of times a season (an exaggeration of a number if you ask me), you might have a point. But it was one play, one moment, where he landed in just the right way to cause the injury. He could repeat the same play 100 times and probably walk away just fine in 99 of them. It really says nothing about his ability to handle a SS workload.
 

chrisfont9

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A shortstop has to dive for balls a couple of hundred times during the course of a season. It's fair to say that Story's body looks to be incapable of that kind of workload if he's getting severely hurt 8 games in.

Fluke or no fluke, injury-prone or non-injury prone, this is the 3rd or 4th major injury he's had in 3 seasons. The prognosis on this latest injury seems to be all over the place so it bears watching to see the actual effects, but none of this is a positive development.

At a certain point the results are the results. He's injured a lot.
Again, you are saying he has some sort of underlying condition, some inability to land awkwardly on his shoulder and just be OK. There is no evidence of this, nor is there any trend in older middle infielders having their shoulders pop out due to an accumulated wear and tear from diving a lot. Who knows, maybe he really does have loose shoulder joints? But a far simpler explanation is that he has had shit happen to his otherwise healthy self.

It's frustrating, we all get it. Nobody gets it more than he does.
 

lexrageorge

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A shortstop has to dive for balls a couple of hundred times during the course of a season. It's fair to say that Story's body looks to be incapable of that kind of workload if he's getting severely hurt 8 games in.

Fluke or no fluke, injury-prone or non-injury prone, this is the 3rd or 4th major injury he's had in 3 seasons. The prognosis on this latest injury seems to be all over the place so it bears watching to see the actual effects, but none of this is a positive development.

At a certain point the results are the results. He's injured a lot.
Any shortstop would have sustained the same injury falling the way Story did.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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If this injury were a result of repetitive actions, like his shoulder wore out because of diving hundreds of times a season (an exaggeration of a number if you ask me), you might have a point. But it was one play, one moment, where he landed in just the right way to cause the injury. He could repeat the same play 100 times and probably walk away just fine in 99 of them. It really says nothing about his ability to handle a SS workload.
It's absolutely amazing that he keeps suffering these "fluke" injuries, isn't it?

Long run, it really doesn't matter, does it? It's semantics. He's seriously injured again. He's not going to get the chance to make the same play 100 times because he cannot stay on the field, which has been his story (get it?) since arriving in Boston. The actual reasons no longer matter. He cannot stay on the field.
 

lexrageorge

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Perhaps. No way to really know. Except that once again he's seriously injured.
People with expertise on this type of injury have already chimed in, and we do “know”.

Fluky injuries happen. Not every injury can be explained away as the player being “injury prone”.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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People with expertise on this type of injury have already chimed in, and we do “know”.

Fluky injuries happen. Not every injury can be explained away as the player being “injury prone”.
We know that he's once again seriously injured. I suppose no one should be surprised about that if they've been paying attention for the past 3 years.

As for the bolded, if a player suffers fluky injuries year after year after year, then common sense says they are no longer flukes. I don't know at what threshold people want to say "Hey, Trevor Story gets hurt a lot and can't be counted upon to stay on the field." I would posit that we are already well past that point. Your mileage may vary.
 

EvilEmpire

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I have no idea if Story's current injury is a fluke or not, but compared to other elite athletes, I don't think physical resilience is an attribute he has in abundance. Giancarlo Stanton has a similar problem.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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He certainly did during his Colorado years. Maybe that was fluky.
He suffered a season ending injury (torn UCL in his thumb which required surgery) in his rookie year in Colorado and played in only 97 games. He was durable afterwards but it clearly took him another year to recover/improve from that as his second year was only an 84 OPS+, far lower than the rest of his output as a Rockie.
 

mauf

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Any shortstop would have sustained the same injury falling the way Story did.
Story got hurt because he dove and landed awkwardly. He didn’t protect himself the way diving players usually do. So while I agree that another player who landed in the same fashion would likely suffer the same injury, I don’t think we can simply assume that Story is no more or less likely than other players to make such a physically awkward play.

If I wanted to figure out whether Story is injury-prone, I’d look back at his other injuries and see whether there are similar signs of a failure to protect himself. I suspect there’s no pattern, but I wouldn’t assume that without doing the work.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I'd like to understand why people need to define this injury as fluky or not.

The effect is the same regardless but it feels as if people can move the narrative to "they should have seen this coming with Story" that's walk-up music for taking hacks at the team.

While its absolutely fair to wonder how committed ownership is to fielding a competitive team based on their budgets and roster, the starting SS getting injured is something that can happen to any team. Most franchises will struggle to replace that production, competitor or not.

Unfortunately injuries happen and assigning blame or dragging the team for its lack of depth or something seems extra.
 

moondog80

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I'd like to understand why people need to define this injury as fluky or not.

The effect is the same regardless but it feels as if people can move the narrative to "they should have seen this coming with Story" that's walk-up music for taking hacks at the team.

While its absolutely fair to wonder how committed ownership is to fielding a competitive team based on their budgets and roster, the starting SS getting injured is something that can happen to any team. Most franchises will struggle to replace that production, competitor or not.

Unfortunately injuries happen and assigning blame or dragging the team for its lack of depth or something seems extra.
I guess in theory, if you somehow knew is was a fluke, you could assume that once he's healed, he has no more of a chance of getting hurt as anyone else. But if wasn't a fluke, you might plan your roster differently.

Scary thought I saw elsewhere -- let's say he's out for the year, but you knew it was a fluke and he was fine going forward as far as injuries go. Even with that being the case, does losing so many MLB plate appearances over 3 years have an impact?
 

Rovin Romine

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Story got hurt because he dove and landed awkwardly. He didn’t protect himself the way diving players usually do. So while I agree that another player who landed in the same fashion would likely suffer the same injury, I don’t think we can simply assume that Story is no more or less likely than other players to make such a physically awkward play.

If I wanted to figure out whether Story is injury-prone, I’d look back at his other injuries and see whether there are similar signs of a failure to protect himself. I suspect there’s no pattern, but I wouldn’t assume that without doing the work.
Baseballcube generally has good IL information. These are all Story's injuries from 2011 which put him on an IL.

year tranx date end date mlb org level transaction description status minor team 40man age
2024 2024-04-06 current BOS MLB IL-10 Left shoulder dislocation IL-10 -- Yes 31.142
2023 2023-02-16 2023-07-21 BOS MLB IL-60 Right elbow ulnar collateral ligament repair IL-60 Boston Red Sox (MLB)
2022 2022-09-22 2022-10-06 BOS MLB IL-10 Left heel contusion IL-10 -- Yes 29.311
2022 2022-07-16 2022-08-24 BOS MLB IL-10 Right hand contusion IL-10 -- Yes 29.243
2021 2021-05-30 2021-06-10 COL MLB IL-10 Right elbow inflammation *Wear and tear* IL-10 -- Yes 28.196
2019 2019-06-20 2019-06-29 COL MLB IL-10 Right thumb sprain *Sliding head-first into 2b* IL-10 -- Yes 26.216

2017 2017-05-11 2017-05-19 COL MLB DL-10 Strained left shoulder DL-10 -- Yes 24.177
2016 2016-08-03 2016-10-02 COL MLB DL-15 Torn ligament in left thumb *Sliding head-first into 2b* DL-15 -- Yes 23.261
2014 2014-05-25 2014-06-13 COL A+ DL-7 Unknown DL-7 Modesto (Calif) No 21.191
2011 2011-07-05 2011-07-09 COL MLB Signed out of draft (Texas HS) Hist -- No 18.231

Two of the injuries were caused by sliding head-first into 2-B. Those aren't fielding injuries, and moreover, given the current mitt, I don't think we have to worry so much about those. So those are in green.

Also in green is the 2022 right hand contusion, which was a HBP (hairline fracture, IIRC.)

I'll put the elbow issues in green, since they're paired, and fixed. That's general throwing/hitting UCL stuff, again, not in the category of an awkward fielding injury.

So that leaves us with a strained left shoulder in 2017, the left heel in 2022 (does anybody remember what that was?), and an unknown in the minors in 2014.

***
But now let's put that in context. He's fielded over 12,000 innings in his professional career, most at SS with a handful at 3B and 2B. He's gotten about 6000 fielding chances.

So that's a possible 4 injuries (max) attributable to fielding in some 6000 plays.
 

mauf

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Baseballcube generally has good IL information. These are all Story's injuries from 2011 which put him on an IL.

year tranx date end date mlb org level transaction description status minor team 40man age
2024 2024-04-06 current BOS MLB IL-10 Left shoulder dislocation IL-10 -- Yes 31.142
2023 2023-02-16 2023-07-21 BOS MLB IL-60 Right elbow ulnar collateral ligament repair IL-60 Boston Red Sox (MLB)
2022 2022-09-22 2022-10-06 BOS MLB IL-10 Left heel contusion IL-10 -- Yes 29.311
2022 2022-07-16 2022-08-24 BOS MLB IL-10 Right hand contusion IL-10 -- Yes 29.243
2021 2021-05-30 2021-06-10 COL MLB IL-10 Right elbow inflammation *Wear and tear* IL-10 -- Yes 28.196
2019 2019-06-20 2019-06-29 COL MLB IL-10 Right thumb sprain *Sliding head-first into 2b* IL-10 -- Yes 26.216

2017 2017-05-11 2017-05-19 COL MLB DL-10 Strained left shoulder DL-10 -- Yes 24.177
2016 2016-08-03 2016-10-02 COL MLB DL-15 Torn ligament in left thumb *Sliding head-first into 2b* DL-15 -- Yes 23.261
2014 2014-05-25 2014-06-13 COL A+ DL-7 Unknown DL-7 Modesto (Calif) No 21.191
2011 2011-07-05 2011-07-09 COL MLB Signed out of draft (Texas HS) Hist -- No 18.231

Two of the injuries were caused by sliding head-first into 2-B. Those aren't fielding injuries, and moreover, given the current mitt, I don't think we have to worry so much about those. So those are in green.

Also in green is the 2022 right hand contusion, which was a HBP (hairline fracture, IIRC.)

I'll put the elbow issues in green, since they're paired, and fixed. That's general throwing/hitting UCL stuff, again, not in the category of an awkward fielding injury.

So that leaves us with a strained left shoulder in 2017, the left heel in 2022 (does anybody remember what that was?), and an unknown in the minors in 2014.

***
But now let's put that in context. He's fielded over 12,000 innings in his professional career, most at SS with a handful at 3B and 2B. He's gotten about 6000 fielding chances.

So that's a possible 4 injuries (max) attributable to fielding in some 6000 plays.
Thanks for doing the work I was too lazy to do.

He has injured both of his thumbs on head-first slides. That and this latest injury are the kind that make me scratch my head a bit.

The others, not so much. One significant injury on an HBP is par for the course for a guy who’s been around as long as Story. The various other injuries also seem like standard fare for a veteran infielder; they’ve been more frequent the past 2-3 years, but perhaps that’s to be expected as a player ages and puts miles on the odometer.
 

Max Power

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Bone structure sounds better than ligament structure, right? A repaired rotator cuff takes a season to heal and a broken bone usually only a couple months.
 

BigSoxFan

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Bone structure sounds better than ligament structure, right? A repaired rotator cuff takes a season to heal and a broken bone usually only a couple months.
Would he be getting a 2nd opinion for a simple broken bone though?
 

Jack Rabbit Slim

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Would he be getting a 2nd opinion for a simple broken bone though?
What bone would they even be looking at being broken? Collarbone? The bone structure comment has me confused since I was thinking the subluxation would be ligament/soft tissue damage.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Bone structure sounds better than ligament structure, right? A repaired rotator cuff takes a season to heal and a broken bone usually only a couple months.
I would think so, a rotator cuff is often the precursor to ending a career due to injury whereas a bone break wouldn't.

That being said, "concern about the bone structure" sounds very serious indeed, so there is cause once again for concern that Story will miss the vast majority of another season.
 

absintheofmalaise

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Here's an article on the good doctor from The Sporting News in 2023.
Per his biography, Dr. ElAttrache graduated from Notre Dame in 1981 and graduated from the University of Pittsburgh in 1985 with his medical doctorate. Dr. ElAttrache also had his general surgery internship from 1985 to 1986 and orthopedic surgery residency from 1986 to 1990 at Pittsburgh.

From there, Dr. ElAttrache went to the Kerlan-Jobe Orthopaedic Clinic in 1990 to become a sports medicine fellow, and after his year-long fellowship, he was brought on full-time.

Dr. ElAttrache has been with the Kerlan-Jobe Orthopaedic Clinic since 1990, but along the way, he's also held multiple other positions. He has been a consultant for several football teams and has been a member of committees with the Kerlan-Jobe Orthopaedic Clinic, American Shoulder and Elbow Surgeons Exchange and American Orthopaedic Society for Sports Medicine. He was also the former president for the American Orthopaedic Society for Sports Medicine and the Herodicus Society.
 

radsoxfan

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"Concern about bone structure" is not what you want to hear after a shoulder subluxation/dislocation. If its too much bone and too displaced it's not going to heal correctly so a typical fracture healing timeline doesn't apply.

These people often get fractures of their anterior glenoid rim (the tee portion of the "golf ball on a tee" analogy). Labral tears are not good, but when there is also a fracture of the underlying bone, things are even less stable. Some people use 20% as a gauge for how much bone loss requires surgery, though in elite athletes they will probably do surgery for less bone loss than that since they require extreme motion.

El Attrache is the surgeon for a ton of athletes in LA but also from all over the country. DeShaun Watson had a similar injury requiring surgery from him recently.

If people like pictures, can look up "Bony Bankart" "Osseous Bankart" or "Bankart fracture" to see what I mean. I presume that's what theyre getting at in the recent tweet. They also get "Hill-Sachs" fractures of the humeral head but these tend to be less important.

This website also has some stuff.

https://radiologyassistant.nl/musculoskeletal/shoulder/instability#bankart-and-variants
 
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LogansDad

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And a second opinion only available with a cross country flight.
ElAttrache isone of the best orthos in the world.

My first thought when he hit the other night was honestly, "The only time I have ever seen an athlete writhe in pain like that are collarbone injuries". It would not surprise me, but I am not a doctor.
 

Jimbodandy

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"Concern about bone structure" is not what you want to hear after a shoulder subluxation/dislocation. If its too much bone and too displaced it's not going to heal correctly so a typical fracture healing timeline doesn't apply.

These people often get fractures of their anterior glenoid rim (the tee portion of the "golf ball on a tee" analogy). Labral tears are not good, but when there is also a fracture of the underlying bone, things are even less stable. Some people use 20% as a gauge for how much bone loss requires surgery, though in elite athletes they will probably do surgery for less bone loss than that since they require extreme motion.

El Attrache is the surgeon for a ton of athletes in LA but also from all over the country. DeShaun Watson had a similar injury requiring surgery from him recently.

If people like pictures, can look up "Bony Bankart" "Osseous Bankart" or "Bankart fracture" to see what I mean. I presume that's what theyre getting at in the recent tweet. They also get "Hill-Sachs" fractures of the humeral head but these tend to be less important.

This website also has some stuff.

https://radiologyassistant.nl/musculoskeletal/shoulder/instability#bankart-and-variants
Bankart fracture seems pretty damn catastrophic. Hope that's not what it is. Are there other humeral fractures that could apply to this case? The Hills Sachs doesn't seem like that huge of a deal.
 

radsoxfan

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Bankart fracture seems pretty damn catastrophic. Hope that's not what it is. Are there other humeral fractures that could apply to this case? The Hills Sachs doesn't seem like that huge of a deal.
A potential structural bone problem after a dislocation is almost always primarily a Bankart fracture of the glenoid. Sometimes the size of the Hill Sachs combined with the Bankart fracture can present a problem also. Rarely people have a congenitally shallow glenoid, I suppose that could be whats going on here moreso than a fracture, but thats very unlikely/rare.

If the Bankart fracture is just a thin fleck of bone you might be able to get away with letting it heal. But yeah, not a good update and certainly season ending surgery would seem to be at least on the table. If too much bone is broken off/displaced they will have to reinforce the glenoid with some extra bone/screws to get his stability back and that's not a quick rehab.
 

Jimbodandy

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A potential structural bone problem after a dislocation is almost always primarily a Bankart fracture of the glenoid. Sometimes the size of the Hill Sachs combined with the Bankart fracture can present a problem also. Rarely people have a congenitally shallow glenoid, I suppose that could be whats going on here moreso than a fracture, but thats very unlikely/rare.

If the Bankart fracture is just a thin fleck of bone you might be able to get away with letting it heal. But yeah, not a good update and certainly season ending surgery would seem to be at least on the table. If too much bone is broken off/displaced they will have to reinforce the glenoid with some extra bone/screws to get his stability back and that's not a quick rehab.
At the risk of worrying about this too much too early, it seems that not only would Bankart surgery add a lot of time to recovery, it seems like it would also come with some wide error bars for an elite athlete who puts lots of torque on that joint. Does the fixation hold, is there any irritation in the joint from the screws/pins, arthritis, etc. Is there much case history of athletes bouncing back from it?