Who has developed on the Sixers the past 3 years? Maybe Noel a little bit?
The sixers and building a winner
- Thread starter LondonSox
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At the end of the day it isn't about winning championships. The NBA and it's teams as all the major sports are these days, are in the entertainment business with one single entity hurting not only their own business but the other teams as well by purposely not putting a competitive product on the floor. It's a slap in the face to both the owners and every player in the league for negatively affecting their revenue which the players share.
The Seventyhinkers (credit to nighthob) fill their own arena at the lowest pct of capacity in the league and among the bottom 3 on the road. This doesn't take into account tv viewer ratings which I'd imagine were also at the bottom of the league both home and away as well. They were a detriment to the leagues business owner and players for their actions. This is a good day for the NBA.
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Maybe they didn't ignore it instead we're really really bad at it with the players they had chosen to develop. When you cite names like Staukas, Covington, and McConnell as your success stories in a 13-page resignation letter something clearly went very wrong.
Yeah, this is what it boils down to. They had no defensive leadership, no one to help their young players work the referees for calls, no one to teach them what it takes to be a successful NBA player. Who knows, maybe not having vets around to help out kid players is the new market inefficiency. But even if it is it didn't work for the Seventyhinkers.
I hope this site has a trademark on "SoSH" because there are legions of delusional Sixers fans on the internet who are probably doing the CSS for Sons of Sam Hinkie as we speak. It's out of control.
How do you define develop? Jerami Grant's a much better shooter today than he was last season. Noel has a completely different jump shot.
There's plenty of players who have quite obviously worked on parts of their game, and improved them. There's obviously a very big talent deficiency. But to claim the Sixers ignored development isn't correct. They didn't value things like veteran leadership, etc. enough. But that's much different than the point Nighthob made, which I disagreed with.
Brett Brown is considered one of the best player development guys in the NBA. He held that role in San Antonio. It's THE reason he was hired. It was certainly a point of emphasis, even if the results weren't there.
Not only that.....if people think Ainge didn't want to back into the playoffs last year (he said so during interview himself) can you imagine how passionate Hinkie was in ensuring a Top draft pick? I mean this was THE primary focus of his vision which would only be jeopardized by developing young players well enough that they actually began winning games.
Based on what Hinkie's primary objective was then No.....I don't feel player development was something he particularly cared about nor should it have been (placing myself in his shoes with his objective). One thing I will admit about Hinkie is that he is a smart and brilliant mind who is imo was in the wrong business. He is clearly lacking in many other areas however I don't feel there is any way he is going to threaten finishing dead last with the best opportunity for a #1 pick to develop marginal players that could result in winning NBA games while costing them the worst record.......marginal players who can be had at any time by any team in the NBA.
I thought it was because all the other head coaching candidates that summer ran from the job? Weren't the Sixers ready to hire their summer league coach or another lower level assistant had Brown not accepted? It was awhile ago but this is my recollection although I may be off.
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I agree they didn't ignore player development. However, at least from what we could see, they (again) took an NBA2K approach to it. You draft an awesome prospect in that game, and they develop from a 70 rated player to a 96 guy regardless of what talent you put around them. I don't know how NBA players develop, but it's not crazy to me to think that they'll develop better playing on a team that resembles an NBA squad. Maybe playing with TJ McConnell as your starting PG doesn't hurt the development of your bigs. But maybe it does, and there's some middle ground in between too, where it hurts a bit, but not too much.
Reasonable minds can differ here of course.
I think that totally makes sense. My point in all of this wasn't to debate how to best develop players (though it's an interest conversation, and I'm not trying to put an end to it), but to call out the odd level of vitriol that exists specifically around Sam Hinkie. It's a very interesting conversation to discuss how to develop NBA players and where the Sixers fell short. It's a much less interesting one to say, in no uncertain terms, "Hinkie ignored player development." It's obviously more nuanced than that, and that's what I was calling Nighthob out on.
That whole article has to be satire. Doesn't it? It's some kind of joke. I don't know exactly what he's satirizing, but the tone is way too sincere to be real. Plus, no actual human could possibly feel that way.
Maybe it was written by Watson.
So, by my count, the Sixers have given the lions share of their playing time to guys with < 3 years experience, most of whom are UDFAs or picked late in the draft:
Thompson (UDFA)
Canaan (34)
Grant (39)
Noel (6)
Covington (UDFA)
Stauskas (8)
McConnell (UDFA)
Holmes (37)
This is pretty similar to the '01-02 Bulls, although that team had 3rd and 4th year players (Artest and Miller) coming into their own and better rookies.
Intriguingly, those Bulls fucked up by trading said players for Jalen Rose.
Thompson (UDFA)
Canaan (34)
Grant (39)
Noel (6)
Covington (UDFA)
Stauskas (8)
McConnell (UDFA)
Holmes (37)
This is pretty similar to the '01-02 Bulls, although that team had 3rd and 4th year players (Artest and Miller) coming into their own and better rookies.
Intriguingly, those Bulls fucked up by trading said players for Jalen Rose.
The thing that tipped the scales for me that 'its just time for Hinkie to go' was about the 1 hour mark on his Lowe Post podcast when Zach asked him something to the effect of when they were going to get better...and he really had no answer. He ended up devolving into this intellectual exercise around questioning what could realistically be guaranteed for progress based on where they were today, and measuring against historical parallels. Bottom line is after three years of just atrocious basketball there is still no concrete thought or plan on climbing out of the basement. If not now, then when? I'm a math guy to some degree, and I certainly value the asset acquisition model, but eventually you have to just pull the trigger and try to put a team on the floor. No equation will spit out the definitive date (though I'm sure Carmine would like to try, ha 
Sounds like it was written by the same guy who followed James Jones in the 70's.
Cults are powerful and dangerous.
The criticism of the sixers for not being focused on player development is crazy. What possible evidence is there for this? They developed new state of the art training facilities and embraced sport science. They hired a player development coach, and many coaches etc with that focus.
I think honestly this is what killed Hinkie. Because he blew (something he admits) the point guard situation this year and even after the ish Smith "fix" was awful. Smith stabilized things on one end but was a turnstile on d. This season was bad. Awful. Hinkie hated it. They weren't meant to be THIS bad. I think he also learnt some lessons about the veteran leadership stuff.
But look, they tanked and they never had the worst record, but never had any real luck. This what always confuses me a bit, this year was a mistake in some ways, but they haven't actually had the worst record, and last year they were actually pretty fun to watch. This year has just been brutal.
That said Hinkie paid the price for not just this year but for drafting in particular embiid and saric. No one really has much bad to say about Noel pick. Embiid playing this year would have been a game changer. Saric has developed better than expected and frankly if anyone bar hardcore fans was following him he'd be viewed more positively.
Okafor is the pick that could deserve criticism but there is a lot of smoke about ownership influence. Which makes it hard to know for sure.
I am not a fan of tanking. But I am a huge fan of trying to win, not be average. I think overall we've shown it was a year too long. If they had won 25 games this year I think Hinkie has a job. It's not super hard to win that many games if you want to. I understand one more year mentality esp as Simmons was regarded so highly esp early.
And woj confirmed the obvious. Hinkie didn't leak that. It never made sense he would. Colangelo did. In part because Hinkie if that hadn't been public would well have been kept. Ownership factions still like and trusted him and thought he deserved a year more (which I agree- if he made no improvement missed on players again and was embracing a 4th tank even I would be struggling to defend it).
Next year embiid is playing Saric comes they get say Ingram and trade Okafor for a pg that's a mid twenty win team with exiting upside potential. It's suddenly a new look. Colangelo saw the chance to end him and leaked it. He's corporate scum.
How different is what the Lakers and the sixers actions in the last two years? One lies about it and pays Kobe.
Anyway I expect most of you think I'm stupid. I followed this losing team far closer than any nba team ever. I believed in the process and the flaws I saw Hinkie learn and adjust. He was willing to work with colangelo. Colangelo was only interested in appointing his son.
Note BTW, that Hinkie was asked to add voices and build a committee style. Now he's gone there is ZERO talk of colangelo Jr having a partner or other voices.
This is pure grade a Bulls hit. I am very sad. Mock me as you wish. If you enjoy kicking a man when he's down. Go to it.
I think honestly this is what killed Hinkie. Because he blew (something he admits) the point guard situation this year and even after the ish Smith "fix" was awful. Smith stabilized things on one end but was a turnstile on d. This season was bad. Awful. Hinkie hated it. They weren't meant to be THIS bad. I think he also learnt some lessons about the veteran leadership stuff.
But look, they tanked and they never had the worst record, but never had any real luck. This what always confuses me a bit, this year was a mistake in some ways, but they haven't actually had the worst record, and last year they were actually pretty fun to watch. This year has just been brutal.
That said Hinkie paid the price for not just this year but for drafting in particular embiid and saric. No one really has much bad to say about Noel pick. Embiid playing this year would have been a game changer. Saric has developed better than expected and frankly if anyone bar hardcore fans was following him he'd be viewed more positively.
Okafor is the pick that could deserve criticism but there is a lot of smoke about ownership influence. Which makes it hard to know for sure.
I am not a fan of tanking. But I am a huge fan of trying to win, not be average. I think overall we've shown it was a year too long. If they had won 25 games this year I think Hinkie has a job. It's not super hard to win that many games if you want to. I understand one more year mentality esp as Simmons was regarded so highly esp early.
And woj confirmed the obvious. Hinkie didn't leak that. It never made sense he would. Colangelo did. In part because Hinkie if that hadn't been public would well have been kept. Ownership factions still like and trusted him and thought he deserved a year more (which I agree- if he made no improvement missed on players again and was embracing a 4th tank even I would be struggling to defend it).
Next year embiid is playing Saric comes they get say Ingram and trade Okafor for a pg that's a mid twenty win team with exiting upside potential. It's suddenly a new look. Colangelo saw the chance to end him and leaked it. He's corporate scum.
How different is what the Lakers and the sixers actions in the last two years? One lies about it and pays Kobe.
Anyway I expect most of you think I'm stupid. I followed this losing team far closer than any nba team ever. I believed in the process and the flaws I saw Hinkie learn and adjust. He was willing to work with colangelo. Colangelo was only interested in appointing his son.
Note BTW, that Hinkie was asked to add voices and build a committee style. Now he's gone there is ZERO talk of colangelo Jr having a partner or other voices.
This is pure grade a Bulls hit. I am very sad. Mock me as you wish. If you enjoy kicking a man when he's down. Go to it.
This is unfair. He didn't want to commit but in the pod overall he was clear they were going to be more aggressive in free agency and trade and expected to improve next year. This is Hinkie being too honest for his own good. He doesn't know what he'll get from Saric or embiid yet nor the draft nor free agency so was pretty soft on it. But I think near everyone thinks next year they should be moving to bad but competitive with a small chance of a faster jump. But if embiid is hurt, Saric stays away and they get hosed in the lottery then year promises of improvement could be messy.The thing that tipped the scales for me that 'its just time for Hinkie to go' was about the 1 hour mark on his Lowe Post podcast when Zach asked him something to the effect of when they were going to get better...and he really had no answer. He ended up devolving into this intellectual exercise around questioning what could realistically be guaranteed for progress based on where they were today, and measuring against historical parallels. Bottom line is after three years of just atrocious basketball there is still no concrete thought or plan on climbing out of the basement. If not now, then when? I'm a math guy to some degree, and I certainly value the asset acquisition model, but eventually you have to just pull the trigger and try to put a team on the floor. No equation will spit out the definitive date (though I'm sure Carmine would like to try, ha
Ownership fires a novel thinker with a long-term plan due to poor interpersonal skills and disappointing early results. Sixers' fans don't have to go very far to find a parallel.
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All back and forth debates aside I appreciate your passion for the rebuild and I do feel for you. I don't feel anyone is purposely looking to kick you when you're down it's that sometimes responses come across with more venor in print than intended.
Rebuilding from nothing can be a fun journey for a sports fan. I hope you embrace Jr. and who knows maybe be does do what he did in two other stops. Hang in there.
I'm going to walk back saying Hinkie was decent to saying that it is impossible to assess.
However, his firing is to me unjustified.
People cite how bad the team has been, but that's exactly what he told them he planned to do, be truly terrible for several years to maximize the chances to a true star (and multiple very good young players).
The ownership also knew that when in 2014 they approved drafting a player who everyone knew would miss a full season and was a health risk (he missed 2) and a player who wouldn't come to the NBA for 2 years.
One thing people forget as well, is that along with a terrible roster, when Hinkie took over Philly owed two first round draft picks to other teams (they kept them by being terrible long enough for one to expire and one to become a pair of seconds )
When I look at what PHI has, it's really one of the more interesting set of assets of any non-elite team,
obviously they need to trade at least 1 big man, but they can shop for the best deal.
Going forward they have these pieces I consider varying levels of valuable:
Okafor
Noel
Embiid
Saric
COvington
Grant
They also have McConnell and Stauskas who may still develop into useful pieces.
They have the following draft assets:
2016 Own pick (highest #1 odds)
2016 Right to swap with SAC (extra odds for #1)
2016 MIA 1st
2016 OKC 1st
2018(or 19) SEC 1st
Tons of cap space.
That's a really great foundation going into this offseason both for signings/draft/trades.
I personally think they made mistakes last year (mostly not having a competent PG), but losing shouldn't be a basis for firing a guy who told you that his plan was to be the worst team in the league for multiple years.
Basically Hinkie laid out a plan, executed it (with some flaws) and the ownership chickened out on it.
However, his firing is to me unjustified.
People cite how bad the team has been, but that's exactly what he told them he planned to do, be truly terrible for several years to maximize the chances to a true star (and multiple very good young players).
The ownership also knew that when in 2014 they approved drafting a player who everyone knew would miss a full season and was a health risk (he missed 2) and a player who wouldn't come to the NBA for 2 years.
One thing people forget as well, is that along with a terrible roster, when Hinkie took over Philly owed two first round draft picks to other teams (they kept them by being terrible long enough for one to expire and one to become a pair of seconds )
When I look at what PHI has, it's really one of the more interesting set of assets of any non-elite team,
obviously they need to trade at least 1 big man, but they can shop for the best deal.
Going forward they have these pieces I consider varying levels of valuable:
Okafor
Noel
Embiid
Saric
COvington
Grant
They also have McConnell and Stauskas who may still develop into useful pieces.
They have the following draft assets:
2016 Own pick (highest #1 odds)
2016 Right to swap with SAC (extra odds for #1)
2016 MIA 1st
2016 OKC 1st
2018(or 19) SEC 1st
Tons of cap space.
That's a really great foundation going into this offseason both for signings/draft/trades.
I personally think they made mistakes last year (mostly not having a competent PG), but losing shouldn't be a basis for firing a guy who told you that his plan was to be the worst team in the league for multiple years.
Basically Hinkie laid out a plan, executed it (with some flaws) and the ownership chickened out on it.
We the fans heard early in the season (maybe prior I don't recall specific timeline) how Hinkie had serious communication issues with agents and GM's. If we are hearing leaks of this I'm sure Harris heard much more specific details of these flaws which are fatal for a GM not simply characterized as "some flaws" and brushed under the carpet. If it took into his 3rd season for these to become fatal than the "some flaws" part were evident to Harris much sooner.
I don't feel the W/L record had anything to do with Colangelo taking control months ago when he was representing Philly at the ASG convention while Hinkie was home. When an owner loses confidence in his GM's ability TO work with these same agents and GM's who reported the major issues (again not some flaws) you are asking him to continue with his plan that requires the owners confidence.......that isn't fair to Harris.
The nepotism angle is sour grapes and makes zero sense. We heard that Harris went to Silver, Silver recommended Colangelo Sr. and he was hired. At that point Hinkie was done and didn't have final say in anything from reports heard. The fact that Sr. hired Jr. rather than say Jarron Collins or another young up and comer is irrelevant to the Hinkie decision......Harris made that the day he went to Silver for help.
The whole thing kind of reminds me of Disney and Tom Staggs.
Just wait until Philly happens to get Ingram and Dunn in the draft and wins 50 games next year. The Colangelos are going to look like genuises!
It's a perfect situation for Colangelo Jr. Zero expectations and a nice foundation to build off of. Even marginal success will be credited to him and Hinkie will be long forgotten.
How long before D'Antoni is named Head Coach? A week after the end of the regular season or sooner?
Crazy story about Nerlens Noel's landlord suing him for a number of different damages to a house he was renting:http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/25547358/report-nerlens-noel-accused-of-doing-really-gross-things-to-a-rental-home
Apparently after the landlords decided to kick Noel out, the next day a tombstone mysteriously appeared on the front lawn of the property that said "RIP".
Apparently after the landlords decided to kick Noel out, the next day a tombstone mysteriously appeared on the front lawn of the property that said "RIP".
I expect a major roster turnover this summer including at least one of Okafor/Noel along with the drafting of 1 or 2 lottery guards/wings.
Sure, but that would still leave them with the other of Okafor/Noel, the theoretical player that is Embiid and even Saric is 6'10". D'Antoni really has no idea how to use even a single post player, as we witnessed when he had Howard and Gasol together in LA. Amar'e was incredible under him, but he generally tried to take his guy 12 or 15 feet from the basket and then drive on him. I would laugh really hard if that happened, but I doubt it will. D'Antoni's Suns were some of my favorite teams ever, and full credit for revolutionizing offense for a few years there, but he was awful in both NY and LA after that.
Firstly, Jerry colangelo steps down. Having squeezed out Hinkie and appointing his son he leaves. I am absolutely bemused how the owners have bought into this. He joined, people immediately assumed he would want his son, he does that without ever going to Philadelphia and then steps down and it's Hinkie who is widely labeled as the fall guy. Amazing
Also this is just wonderful
http://www.libertyballers.com/2016/4/10/11403600/sixers-take-over-the-team-via-skype-hire-their-son-and-run-away-109-108
Also this is just wonderful
http://www.libertyballers.com/2016/4/10/11403600/sixers-take-over-the-team-via-skype-hire-their-son-and-run-away-109-108
#1 overall, Embiid, Saric, Heat and Thunder pick this year all added to
Noel, Okafor, Covington, Sauce, lots of cap space. Lakers first and kings first still to come.
Man that Hinkie guy was a bum.
Trade Okafor for PG if possible.
Noel, Saric, Simmons, Cov/ Sauce, PG
Embiid, Grant, Cov/ Sauce, Shooter, 3&D Guard, backup PG
That's a potentially fun team!
Or if they prefer ingram, Trade with Lakers (Russell for Okafor plus pick swap, remove protection on 1st next year plus maybe a throw in 2nd for Hinkie's sake)
Noel, Saric, Ingram, Cov/Sauce, Russell
Same bench. Fun team too. Defensively worrying but Noel is a nice anchor.
Or
Trade for Butler (Okafor, Lakers pick + whatever- I don't know)
Noel, Simmons, Butler, Cov/ Sauce, FA PG
This esp if the PG really needs just 3&D as Simmons will run point a fair amount. This is a team, defensively potentially pretty solid,
Lots and lots of options for the Sixers. Fuck the Colangelos, Hinkie should be being congratulated for the position he's put this franchise and instead he's gone and the media morons praise Colangelo for it.
Noel, Okafor, Covington, Sauce, lots of cap space. Lakers first and kings first still to come.
Man that Hinkie guy was a bum.
Trade Okafor for PG if possible.
Noel, Saric, Simmons, Cov/ Sauce, PG
Embiid, Grant, Cov/ Sauce, Shooter, 3&D Guard, backup PG
That's a potentially fun team!
Or if they prefer ingram, Trade with Lakers (Russell for Okafor plus pick swap, remove protection on 1st next year plus maybe a throw in 2nd for Hinkie's sake)
Noel, Saric, Ingram, Cov/Sauce, Russell
Same bench. Fun team too. Defensively worrying but Noel is a nice anchor.
Or
Trade for Butler (Okafor, Lakers pick + whatever- I don't know)
Noel, Simmons, Butler, Cov/ Sauce, FA PG
This esp if the PG really needs just 3&D as Simmons will run point a fair amount. This is a team, defensively potentially pretty solid,
Lots and lots of options for the Sixers. Fuck the Colangelos, Hinkie should be being congratulated for the position he's put this franchise and instead he's gone and the media morons praise Colangelo for it.
Yup. You knew the Colangelos would benefit from the foundation that Hinkie set up. Definitely lots of possibilities for this organization. They're going to be a bottom 5 team again next year but could be competitive in a couple years if things go right and Brown turns out to be the coach they think he is.
I still don't understand what's so radical about going into tank mode and just acquiring high draft picks continually. Is it audacious? Sure. Not every owner is going to sign off on purposefully losing for years given the effects this can have on the fan base and bottom line. So I'm not sure what makes Hinkie such a genius other than giving internet nerds who love tanking a giant boner.
Other than drafting worse players what was so smart that Hinkie did compared to what the Sonics did 9 years ago?
Other than drafting worse players what was so smart that Hinkie did compared to what the Sonics did 9 years ago?
The Sixers are light years away from contending but at least they now have a path to getting there. If they kept that Jrue Holiday team intact, they'd be winning 25-30 games every year and would have very little hope for improvement. Now, they'll be going into the next season with Simmons/Ingram, Noel, Saric, Okafor, Embiid, Covington, Stauskas, and whoever they take with the MIA/OKC picks. Hinkie is no genius but he helped build up the asset base.
Hinkie is now on a pedestal? He alienated agents and GM throughout the league which lost the owners faith in him being about to function in his job. This was about operations failure not about losing basketball games. Ownership was fine with the process......once all these issues came out they weren't fine with him being the best man to complete the process.
This imo is the best outcome for Sixers fans. Someone willing to be the sacrificial lamb in Hinkie to strip the car down while having a proven mechanic in place to put it back together.
This imo is the best outcome for Sixers fans. Someone willing to be the sacrificial lamb in Hinkie to strip the car down while having a proven mechanic in place to put it back together.
Bryan Colangelo is a proven mechanic now?
He's always been on my pedestal. I respect what he did, why and his plan which he both explained and was true to, he made some big mistakes, which he generally both admitted and adjusted to (some too late)
I'm not going to get back into this argument. You guys don't like Hinkie fine. Happy for you. You cannot refute that he has left he franchise in a much better position than when he joined. At worst he deserves to be appreciated for doing a hard and nasty job well, whether he could have done the more positive leg from here is unclear, and I understand the arguments against it.
He's always been on my pedestal. I respect what he did, why and his plan which he both explained and was true to, he made some big mistakes, which he generally both admitted and adjusted to (some too late)
I'm not going to get back into this argument. You guys don't like Hinkie fine. Happy for you. You cannot refute that he has left he franchise in a much better position than when he joined. At worst he deserves to be appreciated for doing a hard and nasty job well, whether he could have done the more positive leg from here is unclear, and I understand the arguments against it.
The Sonics traded Ray Allen while he still had good value and did a sign and trade with Orlando so they could turn him into a draft pick. They still kept a lot of good vets like Nick Collison around, though, instead of trading them all for second round picks.
it is intentionally trying to build a bad team that upsets people rather than trying to acquire draft picks.
While I am not a fan of tanking, it does seem a bit perverse that the fruits of Hinkie's labor will now be enjoyed by the people who launched a coup against him. Colangelo will now say he does not need to tank to build a good team . . . while he is using the second pick in the draft that Hinkie handed him.
EDIT: Did a sign and trade to send Rashard Lewis to Orlando.
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I think there's a certain similarity between the Sonics and Hinkie actually. If you think about it.
I think what people forget about the Sixers team Hinkie "broke up" it was bad, and it had no picks because they had been traded in the Bynum disaster. I mean look at this team!
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHI/2013.html
Holiday, Evan Turner, Thad Young, Spencer Hawes and Nick Young were the cream of the crop!!
This was an at best ok team (like fighting for the 7-8 seed type upside) with no star player of any note and no picks.
To be three years later a team with multiple max salary cap space, multiple young prospects (simmons and Embiid qualify as genuine star upside even if both have their issues), Noel, Saric and Okafor and a couple of potential rotation players and 2 high potential extra first round picks and multiple extra second round picks with zero bad contracts.
I think what people forget about the Sixers team Hinkie "broke up" it was bad, and it had no picks because they had been traded in the Bynum disaster. I mean look at this team!
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHI/2013.html
Holiday, Evan Turner, Thad Young, Spencer Hawes and Nick Young were the cream of the crop!!
This was an at best ok team (like fighting for the 7-8 seed type upside) with no star player of any note and no picks.
To be three years later a team with multiple max salary cap space, multiple young prospects (simmons and Embiid qualify as genuine star upside even if both have their issues), Noel, Saric and Okafor and a couple of potential rotation players and 2 high potential extra first round picks and multiple extra second round picks with zero bad contracts.
Well kinda. Colangelo did turn two NBA franchises around.
You do recognize Hinkie's flaws in this process (damn I can't stop using that word) and in his leadership ability while I credit him for having the ability to sell this idea to an NBA ownership group. As a fan of the game of basketball I despise the idea of purposely losing as the integrity of the sport matters to me. For that reason yes I wanted him to fail in some way as I feel his vision is bad for the game.
I'm excited for Philly fans in that player movement this summer will be high, fast and furious. I don't expect many of Hinkie's guys to be there in the end with Okafor and Saric on my list of those I feel will be traded this summer. It's gonna be a wild ride and one created by many future assets created by Hinkie.
Give me a break. Hinkie engineered the worst team in the league this season, and the Sixers got lucky and won a lottery. He did absolutely nothing to brag about. If you had made me the GM of the Sixers, I could have gotten them the top pick this year, too.
No
Yes
No. I mean this seriously. They had top-5 picks in 3 years, and the plan is about to bear major fruit over the next 3 years.
Incorrect. He took a crap team with exactly 1 asset (Jrue Holliday) and committed to the only way to attract future stars to the team: drafting the first one. The reason it's ambitious is because: Philadelphia. An ownership and market not keen on teams that don't even pretend to try.
Would you also have LAL's next non-top-3 pick (likely top 10 next year)? And like all of SAC's picks for the foreseeable future? And so many second rounders you could draft a single D-League team?
No. Building a crappy team is easy. That's what the Sixers did with Tony DiLeo. That is what Hinkie inherited.
Building a team with a future is hard. The only way to build a future is with your own draft picks and luck.
Case in point: Kobe Bryant. In 1975 the Lakers had the 2nd and 8th overall picks. Those picks, plus the 12th pick the prior year - a guy named Brian Winters - and the very-well-regarded C Elmore Smith were traded for Kareem. Several years later, Kareem announced his final season would 1988-89 while the Lakers were still Showtime. With the 2nd-to-last pick in the 1989 Draft, they decided to pick for position and take a chance on a well-regarded European center named Vlade Divac (and not PF Kenny Battle or PG Sherman Douglas). Vlade was traded in 1996 to the Hornets for their draft pick, which was used to draft Kobe. It always starts with picks.
Hinkie wasn't displaced because he followed his plan. The Magic, Bucks, Cavs, and Wolves follow the same plan to varying levels of success. He was pushed out because he was unabashed about it. He never made fake-competitive moves to make the team watchable. He never sugarcoated with the media.The Sixers may fail to be great in the next 3 years, but they still have a bunch of assets to cash.
That's the gist of it and it upsets me. Collangelo said the other day that the process is dead, whereas in reality he's just moving the team to the same next step Hinkie would have followed.
The fake competitive moves not only sugarcoat the situation with the media, they run counter to the strategy you re running. Hinkie had the courage to commit to what he thought was the best strategy sacrificing the short term competitivess of his team while making his position more vulnerable in favor of the long term of the team. This is a trade off you see all the time in all walks of life with people choosing the opposite path making society a little bit worse for the wear. This is why this situation hits such a chord with me
I agree dude. We have a modern society that demands, not expects but demands, instant gratification. This results in so many walks of life with short term solutions that don't fix the long term, as to fix the long term you have to things that suck for right now and everyone fears for their job or re-elections. the result is a seemingly endless slide into long term shit - everywhere from climate change to pension planning.
I hadn't thought about it quite like that, but it's exactly right the long term plan, embraced explained and actioned and the guy who does it the right way gets shot in the back at the turning point. Which only makes it harder for others to do the right long term thing. It's a microcosm of society.
I see the same things in everything political and economic. Short term gain to placate while the long term falls ever more into disaster. I think you're really right this is why I get so annoyed, because it's the same thing that happens to people, including myself.
I hadn't thought about it quite like that, but it's exactly right the long term plan, embraced explained and actioned and the guy who does it the right way gets shot in the back at the turning point. Which only makes it harder for others to do the right long term thing. It's a microcosm of society.
I see the same things in everything political and economic. Short term gain to placate while the long term falls ever more into disaster. I think you're really right this is why I get so annoyed, because it's the same thing that happens to people, including myself.
Well, this is the key for me. Usually ownership doesn't sign off on this because it's embarrassing and unprofitable to have an arena half-full every night and no one watching on TV. In a fantasy league with no fans Hinkie's strategy would be the way to go, but...
If you're trying, fans might show up and you might get some playoff games every once in a while for extra bucks. If you're basically telling the league and the fans you're not trying, interest is going to be low.
Raw attendance doesn't tell the story since I'm assuming they are giving away / having deals on a lot of free tickets (like the Red Sox did to keep the sellout streak alive) and they are the only team in a huge market.
The fans will come back if they start to win. But it's not clear to me that the bottom line is better off this way than if they had pretended to try and drawn some more fans given they'd still be able to rebuild (just not as efficiently).
Well attendance was pretty similar the 09-12 period to the 14-16 period
http://www.statista.com/statistics/197977/nba-home-attendance-of-the-philadelphia-76ers-since-2006/
With a very moderate pricing drop
http://www.statista.com/statistics/220940/nba-average-ticket-price-for-philapdelphia-76ers-games/
Meanwhile I'm pretty confident if the team becomes a real contender both will go up a LOT.
The point being do you want to win, and what are you willing to pay to do it vs the value of being constantly ok/ competitive but little chance of a real run at a title.
This suggests attendance and prices didn't actually do much, they spent the salary floor so saved significantly here and all the upside remains in place from here.
Plus the valuation of the team is significantly higher over the period.
So.... seems a pretty smart financial decision too.
The fans will come back at a higher price if it works. If it bombs sell the team? Win/ Win?
http://www.statista.com/statistics/197977/nba-home-attendance-of-the-philadelphia-76ers-since-2006/
With a very moderate pricing drop
http://www.statista.com/statistics/220940/nba-average-ticket-price-for-philapdelphia-76ers-games/
Meanwhile I'm pretty confident if the team becomes a real contender both will go up a LOT.
The point being do you want to win, and what are you willing to pay to do it vs the value of being constantly ok/ competitive but little chance of a real run at a title.
This suggests attendance and prices didn't actually do much, they spent the salary floor so saved significantly here and all the upside remains in place from here.
Plus the valuation of the team is significantly higher over the period.
So.... seems a pretty smart financial decision too.
The fans will come back at a higher price if it works. If it bombs sell the team? Win/ Win?
The attendance and fan support likely didn't factor in Hinkie's loss of control as this was the business plan he sold Harris and the ownership group on. Hinkie lost control when Harris lost confidence in his ability to complete his vision when the amount of negative feedback surrounding Hinkie's job performance went mainstream by a number of agents and other GM's.
People can ramble on about the raw deal Hinkie got and how the Colangelo's screwed him over (despite neither being a part of the organization when Harris reached out to Silver for help replacing him). He's still one of the few GM's in the history of the game whose peers have publicly come out to criticize his abilities putting Harris in the position to replace him......so he'll always have that reputation to fall back on.
And yet those peers gave him votes for GM of the year the same year. So...
People hated the process for many reasons, some that it was unfair, some that he had the rope to do it when no one else could, some that it was losing on purpose and against the moral code etc.
Now hinkie is gone and won't get to reap what he sowed it is amazing how quickly people have turned that he did a good job, partly due to landing number 1.
Lets be clear the latter is Bulls hit. Result isn't the process, the decisions are. So the people now claiming the sixers are set up so well for the future who were also slamming Hinkie are full of shit. Either Hinkie sucks and the sixers are still crap or he did at worst fine and the sixers are in good shape.
Look I get people really struggle to look impartially at this but whatever. I know where I stand disagree if you wish.
People hated the process for many reasons, some that it was unfair, some that he had the rope to do it when no one else could, some that it was losing on purpose and against the moral code etc.
Now hinkie is gone and won't get to reap what he sowed it is amazing how quickly people have turned that he did a good job, partly due to landing number 1.
Lets be clear the latter is Bulls hit. Result isn't the process, the decisions are. So the people now claiming the sixers are set up so well for the future who were also slamming Hinkie are full of shit. Either Hinkie sucks and the sixers are still crap or he did at worst fine and the sixers are in good shape.
Look I get people really struggle to look impartially at this but whatever. I know where I stand disagree if you wish.
Constructing a team so terrible that ends up with a high draft pick is not a skill. The only thing that separated Hinkie from other GMs is that he had a long-term plan to lose and he sold ownership on going along with it. Once he lost ownership's backing, "The Process" failed and it was because he wasn't particularly interested in building relationships with players, other GMs or agents and was thus unable to mitigate some of the collateral damage of trotting out a horrible basketball product year after year.
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