The sixers and building a winner

Apisith · Jun 26, 2015

LondonSox said:
So they just go best player available and worry later.
Given Noel's defensive ability he and oak could be a nice combo let embiid heal and if all three are healthy and balling you have some serious trade chip?

Kind of hard to criticize the pick with Russell gone. I am really surprised the Lakers took a guard over a center.

In an Era of ever smaller ball the Sixers keep getting bigger .

96 minutes at the 4 and 5 combined surely is enough for those 3, if they're all healthy. There's really no need to trade them, and I don't see why they can't live like this in the long run. Players don't really play 40 minutes anymore. Even guys like LeBron play barely more than 35 minutes a game.

Apisith · Jun 26, 2015

I'm not surprised the Lakers took a guard over a center. Funnily enough Scott Sumner at moneyillusion had a small post on this. In a world where teams are getting smaller than ever, the Lakers did the right thing.

HomeRunBaker · Jun 26, 2015

Apisith said:
96 minutes at the 4 and 5 combined surely is enough for those 3, if they're all healthy. There's really no need to trade them, and I don't see why they can't live like this in the long run. Players don't really play 40 minutes anymore. Even guys like LeBron play barely more than 35 minutes a game.

The only one of the three who can remotely defend the perimeter is Noel and that is usually on switches. You're going to have 48 minutes of a mismatch asking two of these guys to defend the 4 and the three-point line. It's not even remotely feasible. This is simply asset accumulation until future moves are made.

jon abbey · Jun 26, 2015

Yeah, the experts on NBA-TV last night all didn't think that even two of those three could be on the floor together for very long.

Also, do they have any shooting to take pressure off Okafor? As it is, I'd think he just gets swarmed every time he touches the ball near the hoop.

Remagellan · Jun 26, 2015

The Sixers weren't going to be any better if they had gotten Russell than they will be with Okafor next year. I can't in any way process this other than as a coup for the Sixers.

It would have been great if they could have gotten a guard somewhere in the draft, but it’s crazy that they got the guy who was the consensus best player in this draft for the past year AND WHO ACTUALLY LED HIS TEAM TO A TITLE and people are complaining about them not getting a kid that came up out of nowhere the past year and was nowhere to be found in the tournament. NOWHERE. Arizona threw athletes at Russell and he crumbled. What is he going to find waiting for him in the NBA?

The Sixers have cap space, and now at least they have one player who should develop into the type of star that could make it possible for them to attract some others to come play with him. They're still a couple of years away from contending for a playoff spot, but at least they have some idea who'll be leading them there when that day comes.

Cellar-Door · Jun 26, 2015

https://twitter.com/DerekBodnerNBA/status/614473924764676096

those seconds in 2020 and 2021 GOLDMINE!

Remagellan · Jun 26, 2015

Honestly, I would have rather they had taken a chance on one of the guards that went in the run in the second round like Thornton or Connaugton, than draft a guy just to swap him for two second round picks next decade, but TRUST THE PROCESS.

wutang112878 · Jun 26, 2015

I wonder what it might take to get Embiid from them. Granted he is a huge injury risk but thats why I think they might be willing to part with him. And if he can stay healthy I still think he could be a real impact player.

jon abbey · Jun 28, 2015

"The 76ers are close to making a decision that will dictate center Joel Embiid's immediate and long-term future, general manager Sam Hinkie said in a news conference Friday.

Hinkie said that another surgery has not been ruled out, and that he can't see Embiid playing for either of the Sixers' two summer league teams.

Hinkie said that he had a meeting about Embiid on Friday and that the next step is to consult surgeon Robert Anderson in Charlotte, N.C. Hinkie said a decision on Embiid's treatment will include input from Embiid's representatives, the team's performance staff, and medical experts."

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/20150627_Embiid_s_last_CT_scan_raised_red_flag__Hinkie_says.html

BoSoxFink · Jun 28, 2015

Yup, certainly sounds like to me that his career is in jeopardy. Greg Oden 2.0

ElcaballitoMVP · Jun 28, 2015

If Hinkie calls about Embiid, I hope Danny hangs up. That guy is shady as hell, like when he traded Jrue Holliday to the Pelicans without fully disclosing his injury history. The 76ers didn't lose any draft picks and only had to pay NO $3M for a deal that eventually landed them, amongst other assets, Nerlens Noel, Dario Saric and a likely '17 1st. No thanks, Philly. You can keep your broken players.

Remagellan · Jun 28, 2015

If you read the story, the curious thing is that Embiid is experiencing no pain, no symptoms, no indication at all that his foot is not healing properly. I'm sure his agent is going to ask for the opinions of at least a couple more doctors before they would agree to have him undergo another surgery, if that really is what the Sixers deem is necessary.

Maybe I'm just hoping it's so, but I suspect this is Hinkie continuing the smokescreen he whipped up before the draft to explain them drafting Okafor.

BannedbyNYYFans.com · Jun 28, 2015

Okafor is thrilled to be a part of Philly...

nighthob · Jun 28, 2015

The stories about the foot go back to the regular season when there was no guarantee that they would have any shot at drafting either Towns or Okafor. The reality may be that Embiid's foot might be in the same shape as Oden's knee.

Devizier · Jun 28, 2015

BannedbyNYYFans.com said:
Okafor is thrilled to be a part of Philly...

The unforseen consequence of relentless tanking.

E5 Yaz · Jun 28, 2015

BannedbyNYYFans.com said:
Okafor is thrilled to be a part of Philly...

I can't stop watching this. Too funny

jon abbey · Jun 28, 2015

Devizier said:
The unforseen consequence of relentless tanking.

I'd say it's more the current personnel, if Noel and Embiid and Saric were all healthy perimeter players actually on the roster, I'm pretty sure Okafor would be a lot happier to be part of the team.

bowiac · Jun 28, 2015

jon abbey said:
I'd say it's more the current personnel, if Noel and Embiid and Saric were all healthy perimeter players actually on the roster, I'm pretty sure Okafor would be a lot happier to be part of the team.

These are kind one and the same. Taking a series of high upside players who won't play for your is part of tanking

moly99 · Jun 28, 2015

Remagellan said:
If you read the story, the curious thing is that Embiid is experiencing no pain, no symptoms, no indication at all that his foot is not healing properly. I'm sure his agent is going to ask for the opinions of at least a couple more doctors before they would agree to have him undergo another surgery, if that really is what the Sixers deem is necessary.

Maybe I'm just hoping it's so, but I suspect this is Hinkie continuing the smokescreen he whipped up before the draft to explain them drafting Okafor.

This makes no sense. Why would any GM intentionally tank the value of one of his prime assets? If Embiid is really healthy then Philly has no reason to invent an injury.

Remagellan · Jun 28, 2015

moly99 said:
This makes no sense. Why would any GM intentionally tank the value of one of his prime assets? If Embiid is really healthy then Philly has no reason to invent an injury.

Unless you had no intention of trading Embiid and wanted to convince people who were stating that the Sixers would never take Okafor because the three of them can't play together that you will certainly take Okafor if he falls to you. The hope is that would have prompted the Knicks to give the Sixers something to move from 3 to 4, and then the Sixers would have taken either Porzingas or more likely, Mudiay.

The story about Embiid's setback broke on June 14*. That is not back in the regular season. Back then the reports were that everything was progressing normally. But it is around the time that people started flipping Okafor and Russell in their mock drafts.

Whatever, I guess time will tell.

*From today's Philly.com:

It was the second shot to the face this offseason. The first one came a couple of weeks ago when one of the periodic machinery evaluations of Joel Embiid's right foot showed something was not healing quite right. Now, according to Hinkie, the 76ers are spanning the globe searching for medical opinions and solutions to a foot problem that isn't causing Embiid any pain, but is inflicting an inordinate amount of heartache on a tortured fan base.

Read more at http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/20150629_For_Sixers__still_a_lot_of_losing_in_immediate_future.html#oRQDSTF3slKgJcTY.99

PedroKsBambino · Jun 28, 2015

bowiac said:
These are kind one and the same. Taking a series of high upside players who won't play for your is part of tanking

Agreed. Whether the approach is right or wrong depends to some degree whether they can turn around the negativity; as much as I don't love the Celtics second half success last year, it just is true that teams playing hard and trying to win is better than the Sixers situation in terms of morale. Now, if they sign a big FA to go with all that young talent and get a significant coach to sign up, this problem will go away immediately---but it is one of the risks of tanking.

moly99 · Jun 29, 2015

Remagellan said:
Unless you had no intention of trading Embiid and wanted to convince people who were stating that the Sixers would never take Okafor because the three of them can't play together that you will certainly take Okafor if he falls to you. The hope is that would have prompted the Knicks to give the Sixers something to move from 3 to 4, and then the Sixers would have taken either Porzingas or more likely, Mudiay.

But why would they take Okafor at all unless they either believed in him or were worried about Embiid? If they preferred Porzingas or Modiay why didn't they draft one of them when the Knicks didn't trade up? The only way it makes sense to draft Okafor when they really wanted to drop one spot is if Hinkie only values adding future assets and doesn't care about the talent of the players in the current draft. That's possible, I suppose, but then he would essentially be locked into tanking for a decade.

Remagellan · Jun 29, 2015

Forget it, London, it's Cs-town. They look at three seconds of a clip of a kid at a press event and start counting the days until they can poach him off the Sixers for a couple of second round picks or one of their own players that they overrate.

(Marcus Smart, 16 and 28 for Noel and the number 3? As Ryan Rusellio and Chad Ford agreed, "I wouldn't trade Noel for Smart straight up, so why would I give you number 3 for 16 and 28?")

What was Okafor supposed to do with the jersey after the event, fold it like a flag after a funeral? It's not his jersey, unless you think all three draft picks are wearing number 76 next season.

I think Stevens is an excellent coach, perhaps the next best coach in the league when Pop retires, but Brown's shown himself to be a pretty good one himself when you consider that for two straight seasons he's coached a team that everyone believed to be the worst in the league, one potentially historically terrible, with a scandalously unworthy of this level collection of talent assembled specifically to lose the most games, and yet they've never done that under Brown.

I'm not suggesting that Brown deserves to be considered in the upper ranks because of that, but people who follow the Sixers believe whatever problems this team may have, the head coach is not one of them.

Devizier · Jun 29, 2015

Dude, did you watch the clip? It's not like this was ballghazi-style navel gazing here. This clip was plastered all over the place. Like it or not, people - not just Celtics fans - are rooting for Hinkie to fail.

ivanvamp · Jun 29, 2015

Embiid has to be a major concern for Philly, right? If so, and given who the Celtics just drafted (Rozier, a smaller version of Smart), would a Smart-for-Embiid deal make any sense for both teams? The Sixers get the point guard of the future, to pair with Noel and Okafor (need big-time wing scoring though). The Celtics unload from a position of excess, and take a risk that at some point Embiid will be healthy and a dominant rim protector. The salaries line up pretty well also.

jscola85 · Jun 29, 2015

I would not touch Embiid with a 10' pole at this point. He looks like he may wind up in the Greg Oden / Ralph Sampson / Yao Ming graveyard of big men whose career was destroyed by leg injuries.

HomeRunBaker · Jun 29, 2015

Noel has worked with a private coaching service, as many other players do, since 2013 on his shooting and offensive game not Brown. Rarely if ever do head coaches deal in one-on-one player development anymore as this is primarily done by the assistants.....in Noel and others cases it isn't even from the organization.

The rumor for #3 never made sense but I can envision a Smart for Noel swap with picks going to Philly but Smart isn't going to be anyone's PG of the future. He should be a solid 3 and D combo/2-guard for this league though. His inability to get to his spot with the ball to initiate the offense and/or poor first step with the dribble prevents him from playing the 1 full time offensively while he defends 2's much better than the quicker 1's he has trouble with.

HomeRunBaker · Jun 29, 2015

LondonSox said:
Well, they have a one on one workout together as part of every pre game warmup, and reportedly practice too.

http://www.csnphilly.com/basketball-philadelphia-sixers/brown-happy-progress-nerlens-noels-shot

Smart isn't a terrible fit for Philly but he's not what they want for a PG and not sure he's really their plan for a 2. I certainly don't think they'll be giving up on a potential super star for him, and if they did you'd probably assume the worst about Embiid.

It's hard to think that Embiid is worth more to anyone that he is to the Sixers. Because they aren't trying to win now, so can give him time, and are desperate for a star. Not good players, a star. Embiid flaming out due to injuries would suck for the sixers and basketball generally, but who can afford to give him the same treatment and pay for the right to do so?

Yes however that Pre-game work is simply drills ran by the assistant coaches. I wouldn't give much credit to any head coach for player development based on this work. The credit deserves to go to Noel for caring enough about his career and being a professional to work at his craft. As we know there are many bigs who simply cash the check and/or get by on their natural gifts.

Still I see a Okafor/Noel tandem as one that doesn't complement each other well since they both primarily operate in the paint. The spacing would be awful together and that is without even factoring in Embiid. Who knows what Hinkie's future plans are though so rolling with this for now is certainly possible. I don't view Noel as a star it franchise player but a very very good role player with an upside of a fringe All-Star....I don't see where he fits with Okafor on his low block.

Yeah, Smart's problem is that he isn't what anyone is looking for in a 1 and role playing 2's are a dime (ok maybe a quarter) a dozen. They are always available like Afflalo is this summer.

nighthob · Jun 29, 2015

Remagellan said:
The story about Embiid's setback broke on June 14*. That is not back in the regular season. Back then the reports were that everything was progressing normally. But it is around the time that people started flipping Okafor and Russell in their mock drafts.

You obviously weren't paying a lot of attention to them last year (no fears, not even their fans did). From January we have a story about Odbiid ballooning to 300 pounds and the Sixers fears that his weight and cavalier attitude towards conditioning would aggravate the foot injury. In March they admitted that he'd had a setback in the recovery from the stress fracture.

People really need to get over the idiotic "smoke screen" meme, because 99.9% of the time it's just wishcasting. The Sixers weren't throwing up any smokescreens, LA had elected to pick Russell #2 and Okafor was the best player left when Philly picked. Even if Odbiid were 100% healthy Philly would likely have made the exact same pick as Okafor was the third leg of this draft's big three and when you suck you draft the best possible player and worry about the fit later.

Cellar-Door · Jun 29, 2015

Yeah, Philadelphia did not announce the Embiid news as a smokescreen. It got leaked and they made a statement because ti was better than having rumors that his career might be over. Hinkie is all about maximizing assets, why even if he wasn't planning to trade Embiid would he damage the value of one of his players for some draft nonsense.

zenter · Jun 29, 2015

ivanvamp said:
Embiid has to be a major concern for Philly, right? If so, and given who the Celtics just drafted (Rozier, a smaller version of Smart), would a Smart-for-Embiid deal make any sense for both teams? The Sixers get the point guard of the future, to pair with Noel and Okafor (need big-time wing scoring though). The Celtics unload from a position of excess, and take a risk that at some point Embiid will be healthy and a dominant rim protector. The salaries line up pretty well also.

Why would the C's give up at the very least a solid contributor on any NBA team for a possible nothing? Smart has more on-court and likely upside than Embiid. Embiid has a higher ceiling, but seems to be crashing through the floor as we speak.

If the C's grab him, it should be for a couple 2nd rounders and/or nonguaranteeds.

Remagellan · Jun 29, 2015

Oh no, I've been following them so I was aware of all that. But this is not supposedly the same thing. Back then, it was that Embiid tweaked something. Now Embiid is claiming he's fine but it is the Sixers who are claiming that there is something wrong.

And I already admitted that I was "wishcasting" when it comes to this injury, because I am eager to see Embiid on the court as soon as possible.

FYI, the Sixers have a shooting coach:

From a September 2014 article:

While saying "shooting most definitely is going to be a problem" with this team, Brown said the team had hired Philadelphia native Eugene Burroughs as shooting coach.

When Brown came over from the Spurs he tried to bring the Spurs shooting coach Chip Engelland with him, but Engelland didn't want to leave San Antonio.

I totally agree that regardless of Embiid's health situation, the Sixers would have taken Okafor. They are about as far from being in the situation where they could ignore the best player available to fill a team need as a team could be, so they had to take him.

nighthob · Jun 29, 2015

What they identified was an MRI that showed that the foot wasn't healing as quickly as it should, which they've been admitting since last winter. No doubt as part of a master plan to demolish his trade value in hopes that they would end up in a position to pick another big man.

HomeRunBaker · Jun 29, 2015

Remagellan said:
FYI, the Sixers have a shooting coach:

From a September 2014 article:

While saying "shooting most definitely is going to be a problem" with this team, Brown said the team had hired Philadelphia native Eugene Burroughs as shooting coach.

When Brown came over from the Spurs he tried to bring the Spurs shooting coach Chip Engelland with him, but Engelland didn't want to leave San Antonio.

I assumed Noel was using the same private organization as when he was when he left Kentucky as many players do.

Edit: After some digging I saw several pieces with Brown working with Noel his rookie season when he was injured so that is good Brown is a hands-on coach with this group.......however that apparently has been scraped as Noel credits his improvement to work not only with the same private company but with the founder of CoachUp rather than anyone from the Sixers organization. I'd guess this doesn't please Philly and maybe it's why his name has been mentioned in trades.

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/pattisonave/Nerlens-Noel-credits-private-coaching-for-increased-confidence.html

In one word, I would describe private coaching as crucial, Noel explained. Early on I was gifted athletically, but to really bring your skill set along, you need someone there working with you.

Not exactly a ringing endorsement of the Sixers staff.

jon abbey · Jun 29, 2015

Back to the Okafor thing for a second, this was just an aside but I haven't seen this written anywhere else and thought it was interesting. In a short piece in the NY Post this weekend about Hernangomez (the big guy who PHI took 35th and traded to NY for two future seconds). The second half of this sentence was what I thought was interesting, since if this happened, it presumably happened before they picked Okafor and when they just had Noel/Embiid as centers:

"According to a source, the Sixers already had a deal in place with the Knicks at No. 35 when they picked the Spaniard, who had already informed the Sixers he wasn’t interested in playing there."

http://nypost.com/2015/06/27/porzingis-will-have-a-buddy-on-the-knicks-just-not-next-season/

BoSoxFink · Jul 2, 2015

After the trade yesterday, I friggin love what the Sixers are doing. This is the absolute best way to build a winner in the NBA and in a couple more years this team is going to be very good. I wish the Celts went this route.

bowiac · Jul 2, 2015

BoSoxFink said:
After the trade yesterday, I friggin love what the Sixers are doing. This is the absolute best way to build a winner in the NBA and in a couple more years this team is going to be very good. I wish the Celts went this route.

I think the 76ers are in good shape, but lets wait for actual signs of life from them before saying this is "absolute best way to build a winner." Embiid is a huge question mark at this point. Noel looks even more offensively limited than expected. Okafor might end up being a one-way player, and its unclear how he fits on the court with Noel (and you can't always get equal value if you want to rearrange your team "fit"). Plus Okafor seems less than thrilled to be on the team.

This could still go a number of ways. Right now, it's hard to be sure that they've got more title equity than Miami or Houston for instance, who built/rebuilt on the "fly."

Cellar-Door · Jul 2, 2015

bowiac said:
I think the 76ers are in good shape, but lets wait for actual signs of life from them before saying this is "absolute best way to build a winner." Embiid is a huge question mark at this point. Noel looks even more offensively limited than expected. Okafor might end up being a one-way player, and its unclear how he fits on the court with Noel (and you can't always get equal value if you want to rearrange your team "fit"). Plus Okafor seems less than thrilled to be on the team.

This could still go a number of ways. Right now, it's hard to be sure that they've got more title equity than Miami or Houston for instance, who built/rebuilt on the "fly."

It's definitely not the absolute best way to build a winner. If they succeed it is A way to build a winner, and maybe the best for a city that can't get FA.
No other team has built this way to this extent (except maybe the old Clippers, but that failed miserably), so I'd wait for them to be real title contenders before declaring it the best way to build. Also it is going to depend on time frame. One concern is that Noel has 2 years until he gets paid, Embiid 3, and Saric really looks like he wants to wait the required 3 years and get a much bigger than draft pick max deal. They not only need 3 of their picks to turn into stars, they need to re-sign them AND convince good role players to sign (likely cheaply) to play with them in Philly. They have a lot of potential, but on the whole they still need a LOT of things to go right for them to be a contender, and there is a real risk the window will be pretty short even if they make it.

Remagellan · Jul 2, 2015

Teams full of young players don't gel into title contenders overnight, but this is another great development for those of us who trust the process.

They are going to have cap space, and Philly is a lovely area to live and work in. But obviously the key to their ability to be able to attract any free agents in the next few years will be whether Okafor or Embiid develop into real NBA stars (I think Noel can be a premium defender, but he'll always be limited offensively), and the team can get to the point at which it seems to be only a player or two away from legitimate title contention.

Devizier · Jul 2, 2015

Cellar-Door said:
It's definitely not the absolute best way to build a winner. If they succeed it is A way to build a winner, and maybe the best for a city that can't get FA.
No other team has built this way to this extent (except maybe the old Clippers, but that failed miserably), so I'd wait for them to be real title contenders before declaring it the best way to build. Also it is going to depend on time frame. One concern is that Noel has 2 years until he gets paid, Embiid 3, and Saric really looks like he wants to wait the required 3 years and get a much bigger than draft pick max deal. They not only need 3 of their picks to turn into stars, they need to re-sign them AND convince good role players to sign (likely cheaply) to play with them in Philly. They have a lot of potential, but on the whole they still need a LOT of things to go right for them to be a contender, and there is a real risk the window will be pretty short even if they make it.

A good example of the Sixers' approach backfiring is what the Bulls attempted in the early 00's.

The sixers and building a winner

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