Every fan base is the same when it comes to their QB. Hell, we had the same QB-vs-surrounding-talent debate for the last several years of Bledsoe's time as starter.
The Michael McCorkle "Mac" Jones Thread
- Thread starter SeoulSoxFan
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While the O-line point is definitely true.....
You just named, a guy who was drafted last in the draft, a guy who should have been out of the league 5 years ago and is on rosters because the OC likes having him in the room, a 5th round punt, and a guy who spent years as a backup after washing out as a starter when he destroyed his shoulder.
The argument would be much stronger if you pointed to guys who are actually good NFL QBs. If the point is that bottom of the league and backup QBs need a good line and passcatchers... absolutely, of course that's part of the argument about Mac, that he's probably in that group and as such not a consistent NFL starter quality player a team should pay real money for (not all those guys you mentioned are making no money because the league generally did not see them as real starter capable players when they were acquired or drafted.
As to the bolded, you're the one reading this, because nobody is writing it.
And the idea that Tom wasn't carried by the defense is actually fucking insane.
Tom Brady threw 19 touchdown passes and 13 interceptions in 2001, including the playoffs. He threw 10 of those touchdowns and none of those interceptions in 3 games. If this were Mac Jones, you and half this board would be screaming, yeah, Tom can only do it against the dregs of the league like NO (7-9), Indy (6-10), and Atlanta (7-9). In the other 15 games of that season, he threw 9 touchdowns and 13 interceptions. In the last 9 games of the year (all wins), the defense and special teams had more touchdowns than Tom Brady did and didn't give up more than 17 points.
This has nothing to do with Mac Jones, or comparing him to Mac Jones. I could care less what the season long DVOA says, just like you and others could care less what the "stats" say about Mac Jones unless you agree with them. The idea that Tom Brady wins that Super Bowl in 2001 without a defense that was absolutely balling down the stretch is revisionist history.
And nobody has talked about Mahomes. The question was what would prime Tom Brady do with this team. I said 3-4, maybe 4-3. I feel the same about Mahomes. Let me do some math. 2-5 to 4-3 is adding 1-2 more wins, so where the hell do you get the idea that anyone said Mahomes wouldn't add a single win? Oh that's right, you're not reading the posts.
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Yup. Not surprised. Got tricked into thinking we found that guy again.
This is the most painful of all, because after 13 games I really thought "surely it's not a mistake or a fluke…" it was
This team will never find a franchise QB again in my lifetime.
But we're smarter! This is SOSH after all.
Yeah, I had a feeling. I guess QB is a polarizing position.
Now Mac was late, because he came off his first read? He has to make sure these guys get to the sticks on a fourth down play.
And I don't give a shit if the throw was late or not, an NFL receiver HAS TO MAKE THIS CATCH. Hence, the guy has been fucking benched since:
View: https://twitter.com/_piccone/status/1701051637198942329?s=20
To be fair, we are smarter than the dude who wants to trade Josh Allen.
I'm happy to post Josh Allen's numbers before he got Diggs, Tua's numbers before he got Hill, Hurts (who leads the league in interceptions) numbers before the arrival of AJ Brown.
But I feel like I've done that before.
This is you imagining goal posts in Medfield. Never claimed this D was as good, just that it's not the multiplier you say it is.
Just because they had trouble catching Hurts doesn't mean they were gassed. They held the Eagles to, by far, their worst offensive performance this year so far. The Bend Don't Break 2006 Defense never gives up long range field goals?
Again, read the thread. The question posed was what would Tom Brady do with this current team.
Someone responded by pointing out that the 2006 team was 6-1 after 7 games. I responded by pointing out that the first 7 games of the 2006 season, the defense was lights out.
This current defense is NOT that good.
How about you just answer the question posed, and we'll see about those goalposts. What do you think the Pats record would be right now, with this roster, and these injuries if Tom Brady was the QB?
Of course, the entire conversation started with asking the same question about an above average QB, not Mahomes or Brady, but that's where people like to go around here, comparing Mac to Brady. That's why folks need perfection to give the guy any credit.
Side track venting alert....
Don't disagree that Boutte should have made the catch. He was also a late 6th round pick playing in his first NFL game ever. But, with regards to the bolded:
DaVante Parker had a ball literally slip through his hands against Vegas. It was another ball that an NFL receiver HAS TO CATCH. That missed catch was also after he ran the route incorrectly, a common thread this season for Parker (his poor route running led directly to a costly INT against Miami). But yet he keeps getting snaps, despite having no other role on the team.
The benching of a promising rookie who impressed in training camp, and actually got open when playing in his first ever NFL game, continues to confuse me.
Phone autocorrects it everytime. I don't care enough to keep fixing it.
With your 100 internet points, I'll finally be able to get that "I won an internet fight, and all I got was this stupid mug" mug. Now I really have something to root for.
I'm not the one struggling with reading comprehension.
I'm the one that posted that. I'm the one that said Brady 2006 says 6-1. But I didn't say it as yet another Brady/Mac comparison. I offered it as an obvious best case scenario for a QB with weak tools. You decided to make it about defenses.
I don't disagree. The benching of any of these guys for 1-2 mistakes drives me nuts. It's the shit you could get away with when Tom Brady was under center, and you had rosters full of guys that had experience and made plays. But with this roster, benching a guy like Pop after one fumble, and then never going back to Boutte is fucking brutal, IMO.
I did end up going down a rabbit hole of college highlights of Boutte, and couldn't really find a catch he ever made where he had to fully toe tap to stay in bounds though. He did most of his damage in the middle of the field, there were a couple near the sidelines, but nothing like the fourth down play that ended the game. The first one that he should have caught was one he's kind of caught before. Maybe he's just not that used to being near the sidelines. This is what Troy Brown said following that game:
Coaches seemed to hold similar optimism toward the newcomers' efforts but stressed that Boutte and his compatriots will have to adjust to the NFL game sooner rather than later ... including knowing how many feet inbounds constitute a catch.
"It’s something you need to work on when you get to this league,” Patriots receivers coach Troy Brown said this week, per the Boston Globe. “Obviously the fundamentals that you teach in the pros are a little bit different when it comes down to that kind of stuff.”
So just to be clear, which of the Dallas or New Orleans games do you think Brady singlehandedly would have won?
And you think Brady pulls out all 5 of the other games?
That's insane, but obviously, you're entitled to that.
I strongly believe Brady would be 5-2 or 6-1 with this team. I also don’t believe for a second that Brady got carried by the defense in 2001, or any year, or any individual game. Tom Brady is the literal God of Victory. Simply being around him, around his aura, improves every member of the team. In Rams Super Bowl 2.0, Brady only put up 13. He wasn’t carried by his defense to that win, he won because he is Tom Fucking Brady, and his mere presence dooms the opponent. Put any other human in history at QB for the Pats that game and I bet the Rams score at least 20. If Brady wasn’t on the roster in 2008 I bet that team goes like 5-11. His ability to JUST WIN in any way possible, even ways that seemingly have nothing to do with him, defies logic. He makes the offense, defense, special teams, coaching staff, even the Gillette stadium retail and custodial staff better. Alex Guerrero would be a quack without Brady. Instead he’s probably the greatest medical mind of all time. If Brady were sitting in the stands, we beat Dallas 3-0. The entire premise of what would Brady do with this team is nonsense.
There's 3 games Brady may have won that Mac didn't....does he win all 3? Hard to say. He probably wins at least 2 of them (the most likely probably being the Raiders and Eagles games....but perhaps he wins the Dolphins game too).
Maybe this is where the dilemma comes in. You said "You decided to make it up about defense."
No I didn't. When the question is "What would Tom Brady do with this roster, record wise?" Roster includes more than just Tom Brady, the offensive line and the receivers. The Pats were 6-1 after 7 games in 2006 because of the defense, the special teams a little bit of Tom Brady.
So if we're looking at the 2023 roster, and giving Tom Brady a worse defense, worse special teams, worse offensive line, worse running game and about equal receivers, how exactly is Tom Brady going to go 6-1? If we're just talking about the offense, and not the entire roster, we're not having the same conversation and most assuredly, not answering the original question that was posed.
No I didn't. When the question is "What would Tom Brady do with this roster, record wise?" Roster includes more than just Tom Brady, the offensive line and the receivers. The Pats were 6-1 after 7 games in 2006 because of the defense, the special teams a little bit of Tom Brady.
So if we're looking at the 2023 roster, and giving Tom Brady a worse defense, worse special teams, worse offensive line, worse running game and about equal receivers, how exactly is Tom Brady going to go 6-1? If we're just talking about the offense, and not the entire roster, we're not having the same conversation and most assuredly, not answering the original question that was posed.
"Single handedly", lol. Who knows how those games play out without an offense that continously self destructed starting with a panicky sped up QB giving the other team points and putting the Pats in a hole from the jump. Everything changes, effort level, focus, defensive performance. Do you think the Cowboys and Saints are just wagons that the Patriots as currently constituted don't belong on the same field with? I'm pretty confident they'd be favored by at least 4.5 points against this Saints team at home with a high chance of winning if they had Tom Brady, to answer your question. The Cowboys game? Who knows. All of the rest were winnable with competent offensive performances. My guess is if this team had Brady their defense would be in the top 10 in points allowed without playing meaningfully better football.
On a real note, last game did get me excited, mildly, not because it changed my opinion of what we have to do at QB in the future, but because it proved that the team is at least capable of having a good offensive performance. Prior to last week, I wasn’t sure that was possible. I can’t bring myself to ever root for losses, so seeing that made me believe we have a chance to at least win a few more games this year than I’d previously believed we could
Does he go 25-30 with a 126.7 rating and win the Bills game automatically, because he's better than Mac?
In 2019, Tom Brady didn't have a single game statistically that matched up with what Mac did on Sunday, so I know we all assume that Tom plays perfect football, all the time, but well, he didn't. Does Tom Brady only take one sack and never throw a ball into the dirt against the Bills whereas we know Mac is standing in and getting hammered way more than Tom was willing to do?
I stand by 4-3 at best. Which frankly, would still be masterful with this fucking roster.
Last 2 games have made me feel pretty good about BOB, he really leaned in on motion, tried a lot of new stuff. He's a good OC, maybe not elite, but good.
Are these competent offensive performances?
11/23, 163 yards, 2tds, 1 int, 3 sacks, 2 fumbles, 1 fumble lost,
15/29, 220 yards, 1td, 1 int, 1 fumble lost
31/55, 320 yards, 1td
15/26, 180 yards, 2td, 1 int
16/29, 140 yards, 2td
18/27, 195 yards, 2td
Because those are Tom Brady's numbers in the first 7 weeks of the season in 2006. The team went 6-1, and the defense gave up 12 points a game.
But yeah, Tom Brady would singlehandedly win them games that they would otherwise lose, or something.
I just literally laid out the Philly game for you. Tell me how Tom Brady would have magically kept that defense from giving up 3 straight scoring drives in the 2nd half, how would Tom Brady have magically kept Boutte's feet in bounds, how would Tom Brady magically get Bourne to hold onto a huge third down pass?
Meanwhile, all four of the scoring drives in the Miami game that the Pats won in 2006 occurred after the Pats defense caused a turnover or blocked a field goal. 3 of them started at the Miami 10, the Miami 24 and the Miami 37. In the Buffalo win, the game was tied 17-17 when Ty Warren sacked JP Losman for a safety, to give the Pats a 19-17 lead. Do folks remember what the immortal Tom Brady did on the next drive, he threw a fucking pick to Donte Whitner. But no worries, Richard Seymour was there for another huge sack to end the next series and the game.
In the Jets game, the Pats were leading 24-7 when Brady threw a pick, led to a touchdown, 24-14. Then he fumbled on the next drive, 24-17. Then after a decent drive, they set up a field goal attempt and it got blocked by the Jets. The Jets then drove the field, but Bruschi ended that with a pick.
But yeah, let's credit Brady for the defenses in those games, and ignore what was actually happening on offense. And then assume Brady would just got 25/30 every week, for 300 yards and 3tds on this current Pats team, and the defense would jump and down and get psyched because Tom is out there and all of a sudden turn into the 85 Bears.
You're right to vent. Hell, Bill STILL had to make a comment about "ball security" re: Douglas in his post-game presser. It really had gotten absurd.
I'm incredibly lost reading this thread.
So, I guess here is the ultimate question that seems to be the dividing line...
If you put Mac Jones on the Philadelphia Eagles right now, is he being talked about as a top 10 QB? Is their record the same?
To me, I think the answer to both is a resounding no.
We can argue about the specifics but I still maintain that if you put Mac on a team with pretty good offensive talent (I think the Bucs are actually a good example here), he's still a mediocre QB.
Giving those types of players a second contract is a killer.
So, I guess here is the ultimate question that seems to be the dividing line...
If you put Mac Jones on the Philadelphia Eagles right now, is he being talked about as a top 10 QB? Is their record the same?
To me, I think the answer to both is a resounding no.
We can argue about the specifics but I still maintain that if you put Mac on a team with pretty good offensive talent (I think the Bucs are actually a good example here), he's still a mediocre QB.
Giving those types of players a second contract is a killer.
Yeah maybe he loses the Bills game....that's fair to speculate. He also maybe wins it without needing the final drive either. Peak Tom Brady is just so good that the entire exercise is really silly and unfair. He played QB at a totally different level and perspective than probably 95-99% of QBs in the NFL...the mental game is unmatched.
That said, there's no doubt the roster is brutal for setting up a QB to succeed. The pass protection is probably the one thing that stood out to me on Sunday in the roughly 50-60% of the game I watched. Mac didn't always have a clean pocket, but it was clean often enough for him to go through some reads like a QB running a competent-operating offense should do.
The bolded is what this all boils down to. There's been no evidence that Mac can truly elevate players around him, or carry a team for even parts of a game, let alone for games in a season. I agree with you, it's fine to ride him for now but there can't be a second contract. He's not the worst, he can be functional in certain situations, but he's not it.
If we win next week, we are on to 12-5!
I'm definitely not sold yet, but so want to believe. I will choose to be optimistic.
I don't disagree with you on the 2nd contract. I don't see them offering it to Mac unless something really changes the rest of the year, nor should they.
That said, yes, I think Mac Jones could put up these numbers in Philly: 67.2 completion %, 260.1ypg, 9tds, 8int, 87.8 rating, against Miami, Jets, Rams, Washington, Tampa, Minnesota and New England. Those are Hurts' numbers this year, and I think most folks consider him a top 10 guy.
What I don't think Mac could do is have 40 yards rushing per game, and 6 touchdowns on the ground via the Brotherly Shove.
As for Tampa, that offense is really not good besides Evans and Godwin. They have a worse running game than New England, by a lot (they average 3.1ypc). Through the first couple of weeks, most analytics had their offensive line playing among the best in the league in pass protection. That has subsequently reverted to the mean and the result is a shitshow on offense. I don't think Mac makes them any better than their 3-3 record that they have now, but probably not worse either.
Really?
"What I don't think Mac could do is have 40 yards rushing per game, and 6 touchdowns on the ground via the Brotherly Shove."
If you squint hard enough AND think the team has turned a corner AND given injury luck from here on in, you can see the team potentially being anywhere from 5-7 to 7-5 headed into KC game. The schedule gets way easier after Miami and there is a bye week mixed in.
If they can win in Miami, we could get on a roll.
I think this is part of the issue with Mac: with so many other QBs they at least give you something on the ground. Mac gives you nearly nothing. Hurts augments his throwing with some running and agility, Mac does not.
Absolutely true. No doubt.
The flipside of that though is Lamar Jackson cant' finish a season, Fields can't stay on the field, Tua's all but given up on running (as he should with his history)...
So far Hurts, Mahomes and Allen have been pretty damn durable, but obviously it could catch up to them at any time. Of course, there is always the possibility that a guy like Mac gets blown the fuck up in the pocket too, so I don't know how to view that risk when it comes to doling out massive contracts. It's one of the reasons we saw 69 quarterbacks start games in the NFL last season.
Hey man, you don't need to monopolize this thread. I don't know why you think it's your personal mission to convince everyone that Mac is actually good, but we get it. I'm not trying to thread police here, but it's getting really hard to follow this thread with your multiple long form posts that are continually repeating the same thing. You've made some really good points and I think folks are open to giving Mac some rope, but he needs to start proving it. One good game and you're right back on the horse and dominating this thread.
I was very encouraged by what I saw this week from him, the most I have been since he's been drafted, but can we temper it a bit and see what else he can do? We get it, QBs have variance and none of them are perfect (besides Brady).
It's kind of interesting to me how little guys like Dak and Tua are running this year. I think people have kind of started to accept that it's not a sustainable thing long-term. Maybe those guys have so many people to throw to that they don't need to run.
The most effective guys to me are the guys who really pick their spots. Usually on third or fourth down -- guys who can turn a 6-16 third down conversion day into an 8-16. Mahomes is the best at this; it feels like every time he runs it's a first down. Plus, he's supernatural in his ability to anticipate contact and avoid it. The other guys who seem pretty good at picking their spots are guys like Daniel Jones and Joshua Dobbs, just to pull two names out of a hat. But they are both on terrible teams. Lawrence has probably been the most effective this year at picking his spots and truly being complimentary in the sense that it's not a regular part of their offense like with Baltimore, Philly and Chicago, but keeps the chains moving when they get in tough spots.
The most effective guys to me are the guys who really pick their spots. Usually on third or fourth down -- guys who can turn a 6-16 third down conversion day into an 8-16. Mahomes is the best at this; it feels like every time he runs it's a first down. Plus, he's supernatural in his ability to anticipate contact and avoid it. The other guys who seem pretty good at picking their spots are guys like Daniel Jones and Joshua Dobbs, just to pull two names out of a hat. But they are both on terrible teams. Lawrence has probably been the most effective this year at picking his spots and truly being complimentary in the sense that it's not a regular part of their offense like with Baltimore, Philly and Chicago, but keeps the chains moving when they get in tough spots.
Seems to me that designed run plays for your QB, unless it's a super critical situation, are just not worth the risk/reward. So, you pick up some first down in the first quarter at the risk of losing your starting QB for the season? No thank you.
But, I agree, the ability to scramble is a huge weapon and also makes it very difficult for the defenders to hold coverage. That scramble threat means that you are probably going to get an opportunity to throw to an open receiver when you are outside the pocket. I would have to think it's a backbreaker for a defense to cover all the receivers well for 6-8-10 seconds and then have the QB just run for the first.
JT with big praise for Mac's performance. He did point out one major WTF moment starting around 10:45 that was shades of Dallas Mac.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9KlJBjGWBA
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9KlJBjGWBA
This was wonderful.
Tua's better than Mac.
Tua has wayyyyy better offensive pieces around him than Mac.
Which INT was a worse decision/throw yesterday - Tua's or Mac's?
Tua's INT is at 1:17. Mac's is at 4:39. Both are...terrible, awful throws.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_WP2DXae6w
Tua and Miami can overcome those mistakes - especially against a team like NE. But Mac and NE cannot overcome those mistakes - especially against a team like Miami.
(Tua also had a fumble on a handoff, and at 8:05 Tua throws one right into the hands of Tavai, who drops what may have been a pick six)
Tua has wayyyyy better offensive pieces around him than Mac.
Which INT was a worse decision/throw yesterday - Tua's or Mac's?
Tua's INT is at 1:17. Mac's is at 4:39. Both are...terrible, awful throws.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_WP2DXae6w
Tua and Miami can overcome those mistakes - especially against a team like NE. But Mac and NE cannot overcome those mistakes - especially against a team like Miami.
(Tua also had a fumble on a handoff, and at 8:05 Tua throws one right into the hands of Tavai, who drops what may have been a pick six)
Also...I'm glad I'm not posting about the good throws made by each guy because Tua had a heck of a lot more of them than Mac did. I was just pointing out that Tua made some terrible throws too - had two turnovers, should have had a couple more but a Patriot dropped an INT (Tavai) and Hill made a spectacular catch that probably would have been an INT - I think Waddle had another one of those in the game as well).
Tua's decision was worse, but it's the kind of interception that happens to every quarterback. Threw late, had pressure up the middle, couldn't step into it, didn't see the underneath defender. Horrible pick, but to me not indicative of a specific issue that is a hinderance to his game. Mac's pick was the combination of having poor arm talent and being late to second reactions that he displays every week. It probably doesn't look as bad as Tua's, but it's the type of mistake he makes basically every game, so to me it's worse/more worrying. Still don't think he processes at nearly a high enough level to make up for the fact that he absolutely can't afford to be late on throws, especially towards the sidelines. Every time he looks good it's on quick game concepts where he can diagnose the defense pre snap, know where the first option is and the leverage he expects to have, then catch the ball, plant and throw. That's when he's accurate, decisive and throwing from a base. But you can't rely on just that to move the ball at this level, and whenever anything goes wrong on the play he's skittish, throwing off platform, being super late. He wasn't even all that bad yesterday, but the flaws are apparent every single week.