Don't forget our running backs combined for over 110 catches that year too (including 70+) from James White alone.
The irony was that outside of 2007, it was probably the most they ever invested in the position: drafting Harry in the 1st, signing AB, then trading a 2nd for Sanu.
Because it's almost impossible to evaluate Mac Jones when he has middle school level coaching. Would you have dumped Trevor Lawrence when Urban Meyer was his coach?
Ahh nuance. I'm going to stop posting in here now because this captures to a T how I feel.
Yeah. They really tried and just missed on all of it. I mean if that draft pick is Deebo and the trade is Sanders (nothing can be done for AB), that team looks completely different. I am still irrationally upset at Sanu for having Brady's last pass in a Pats uniform be a pick-6 b/c it bounce off of Sanu right to Logan Ryan.
Yeah, that post summarizes it well, and both apparently appear to be true right now.
I think the thing is - if your reference point is 'well, the greatest QB of all time could deal with lesser receivers', then sure; but I think you need to make peace with the fact that there is no model in which the 2022 or 2023 Patriots are going to have a QB that's even in the ballpark as Brady.
The throw is irrelevant. That's the entire point. Mac puts balls in the same type of spots as those throws, and his receivers are incapable of making those plays.
His O-line is at least as bad as ours, and his pass catching talent is worse, but of course we all know the real difference between him and Mac.... Fields is already an all-time great rusher at QB, and that opens a lot of playcalling options we don't have.
The coaching is NFL level easily, it's not elite, but they have been making a ton of adjustments to make it as easy as possible on him, and the same coaches were getting praised for handling Zappe. Mac is behind a bottom 3rd NFL line with mediocre NFL coaching.... that's not the whole or even majority of why he stinks this year, he's a limited QB who can't consistently perform in anything but ideal situations. Yesterday is a great example... the playcalling was good, the line play was even good... Mac just shit himself.
You can look at Lawrence and see elite talent. You can't see the same in Mac.
I do think BB tried in 2019. He screwed up the TE spot, clearly. But he drafted Harry, and he got hurt then turned out to be the latest Spinal Tap drummer at that position for us. And he signed Brown, which would have worked had Brown not leaned so heavily into being a psychopath. And then he traded for Sanu -- which didn't work out, but there's a universe out there where it could have.
Just off the top of my head the Agholor TD against the Steelers? And the throw absolutely plays a part in those catches, the less the ball hangs in the air, the less reaction time the corner has, the easier the receiver can make a play. Just look at the contested opportunities they had yesterday: the ball was up there for so long the corners had time to turn their backs and track it for a good while.
Sanu was fantastic in his first game, really was everything they needed.
And if Mac can’t physically and/or mentally operate well under adverse conditions, then he’s not the guy you want to bet on for the next five plus years. This was not gonna be a top passing offense, or even close to it, even with good QB play, but they’re among the worst because the QB is not playing well and is very loudly chafing at any perceived or actual fuckup around him.
Oh, I know BB tried, but he sucked at it. The point I was making was there was no help coming in 2020 that would give Brady a reason to want to come back here and re-run the failure that was 2019. AB was already gone, Gronk was gone, Sanu sucked, Gordon was done....Cam Newton had nothing left, but damn, that receiving corps in 2020 was next level shitty. Brady saw that coming, and I'll never blame him for bolting before it.
Off the top of my head, go watch the Bills game, both of Tyquan's catches are TERRIBLE throws that he rescues.
Did I watch the same game as some of you? He was missing wide open receivers on just about every throw past 5 yards (minus two throws). Having Justin Jefferson doesn't do shit for you if you miss all your throws. He was fucking putrid.
Yep, that's the only one that anyone can come up with, think it's been mentioned multiple times.
Well, they had just been to four of the prior five Super Bowls (and won 3 of them), at some point the talent is going to need to be turned around. You can't hit on everything forever. Brady left partially because BB was still holding him to the same standards he did when he was a rookie. Gronk said as much in the Brady documentary thing he did. BB probably thought it was time to move on, and I certainly don't blame him after a 41 year old Brady spent the last 10 games sailing passes in 2019.
No one is defending his performance yesterday. What's being debated is whether Mac can become an efficient game manager under the circumstances surrounding him that now exist.
Umm, no, he yelled at the coaches after he threw a touchdown on the very next play after missing Smith, but they inexplicably called a timeout before the play.
This is more or less where I stood at the end of last year and why I was pretty pleased with how the pick was turning out. The case for Mac has never been that he could elevate a team but that he had a combination of accuracy, competitiveness, and football IQ that would make him good enough to win if the rest of the team was very good. That case looked pretty solid to me last off-season.
Catch #1, not one word about Mac putting that ball in the only spot he could put it? It's a good catch by Meyers for sure, but it's a catch I expect an NFL receiver to make.
You are conveniently ignoring the fact that Fields has quite a number of games where he's put up a lot of points and lost because his defense is terrible.
It's not "inexplicable," in fact it's been explained by the head coach himself that they ran the wrong play. Yes, it worked, but they called a timeout because the wrong play was being run. Whether that was on Mac or Patricia, we don't know. But unless he wants Smith and his receivers and coaches having fits with him every time he throws the ball wildly off target, he should probably cut that shit out. That's not a QB who has earned the right to chew people out, and yes that kind of thing matters.
Somebody is defending his performance, though. I agree with your second part, but honestly that's not a ceiling I want to waste my time on if I'm an NFL head coach imo. If they've determined that is his ceiling (and I wouldn't blame them if they have), they should abandon ship.
What?
They have the 19th most points on offense in the NFL.
thjs is what I came to post. He looks like a whiny brat. It’s one thing when you’re playing incredibly well or if you are an established star to act like that, it’s another thing entirely when you’re a 2nd year player who’s been barely mediocre to be throwing hissy fits
Go back and watch the first drive of the game. I just did. I dont have the time to do this for 40 throws, but this was pretty typical of Macs entire night.
Dude, I've said repeatedly that Mac was terrible yesterday.
Fields literally has an old, slow RB1, no useful RB2, and absolutely no WRs on the team. And an offensive line that is at least as bad as the Pats. Compared to the Pats, Fields has nothing, because at least Rahm is amazing.
He was absolutely terrible on the 1st drive. No doubt about it.
I'm not arguing that Fields' surrounding cast isn't abysmal, just like Mac's (IMO).
The defense has two bad performances, one against Lamar Jackson when that team was hot, and the other in the bury the ball Bears game. Their performances in the other losses gave them a good chance to win with a competent offense, and some of those points you're counting weren't scored against the defense. Regardless, any defensive unit with those stats that has this offense putting them in positions they are constantly put in is elite. Hell, the offense has been gifted the best starting field position in the NFL thanks to the defense and Marcus Jones, yet they still put all the pressure on the defense to win them games.
Sorry, but I don't understand this, because we are talking about the offseason. It's not like saying "they should have used someone else" in the 123rd game of the season, it's saying "we need some new arms in the bullpen next year." It's also not really comparative imo. When it comes to finding an NFL quarterback, I think teams should say the goal is to find a QB that reaches a certain standard, and if that means taking some risk on draft picks if you determine your current guy isn't going to reach that standard, that's an ok thing to do.
Maybe he'd get hurt, but teams are loading up against the run game against CHI and it doesn't matter.
The point is that it's easy to talk about making a decision in the abstract but harder when you have to consider alternatives. The question is never "should this guy still be pitching." It's "should this guy be pulled for X." And then it's even more complicated. "X pitched yesterday and we're down 2 and so maybe I want to save him for tomorrow."
Two bad performances? They gave up 27 (all on the defense) to Green Bay. Green Bay ran for 200 yards, and threw for 250 in that game. We were in the game, but Bailey Zappe, our savior apparently, went 10/15 for 99 yards. The Pats took a 17-14 lead, then gave up a drive for a FG to tie. The Pats then took a 24-17 lead, and immediately, the defense gave up a 65 yard drive for the tying touchdown. Then in overtime, Green Bay marched down the field on their 2nd possession for a chip shot field goal to win.
I would obviously rather have Fields, and while the question may be "can you win playoff games with Mac," and there is no evidence of that. Isn't that the same answer if someone asks "Can you consistently win games with Justin Fields?" because right now, there is also no evidence of that.
I mean, if we had Fields we might ask that question.... but we don't. We do also have to consider defense in determining wins. I would say at this point... Fields brings more positive offensive value to a team than Mac Jones, and as such is more likely to help you win in the playoffs given equal defensive performance.
Here's where I am on all of this, for whatever it's worth:
I generally agree with you on a lot Ralph and midi of this I do as well, but where do they get a QB to replace him with any upside? My guess is the ends up coming back and gets to compete for the job for the job and hopefully and take a step forward into decent Qb land. But I think next year will be his last shot if he even gets it.
I hear you, I don’t have any idea what they do next year if it isn’t Mac, which is why I concede he’s likely back. I think they are stuck in QB purgatory where a lot of teams end up. You pretty much know the guy you have can’t do it, but you don’t have other better options.
I don't strongly feel one way or another about Mac, but I don't really see the downside in moving on for the Patriots. If we trade Mac for a second or third rounder - I don't know that we could fetch a first but stranger things have happened - what's the worst that happens? It's not like we're giving up on a live, athletic arm like Brett Favre - he's pretty limited by his physical tools, so the best I could see him becoming on a team like the Panthers or the Raiders is like an average QB. I can't see a scenario in which he goes to another team and his future performance makes the trade an obvious loss for the Patriots. More likely the opposite happens, and we see him struggle even more in a new environment.
Darnold netted a 2nd, 4th and 6th with 1 less year of control. I would guess some team would give up something similar
I think the downside is that he’s capable of playing at at least an above average level in the NFL, and if they hit on the draft and spend their cap money wisely next year to shore up the line and give him some weapons, they might be a frisky-ish NFL team that could show some promise over the next few years. I‘d take that over a 4-5 win season which is what we might get with Zappe playing, or some other NFL JAG, or if they draft the next guy and it takes us 2-3 years to figure out that he sucks too.
