The Michael McCorkle "Mac" Jones Thread

[8slim]

But I just don’t think he has enough intangibles to make up for his completely pedestrian arm talent, and worse than pedestrian athleticism.

I wish we could debate his "intangibles". To me it's his tangibles that are lacking. His accuracy and field vision were awful yesterday, and have been most of this season. His pocket presence and ability to avoid rushers is also bad (granted, the OL has largely been terrible for most of this season).

 

[jose melendez]

I'd still likely give Mac 2023, this offensive coaching staff is that bad, but I'm not going into the next offseason under the assumption that he's our long term starter. If there are opportunities to get a better player through a trade or the draft, they better explore it.

This is where I'm at. You bring him back for 2023, but he has to compete for the job, and you plan ahead like he's not going to work out, drafting a QB, signing a vet... something.

 

[FL4WL3SS]

Mac did miss some throws yesterday but between the ankle injury, the OC being a former DC with no play calling background, not having a real QB coach or OL coach, I give Mac a pass for this year.

I just don't get this line of thinking. It's not as though Mac has had some stinkers and some decent games. He's literally getting worse and hasn't had a good game all year, he's been absolute garbage all season (and you can go back to the last third of last season as well). I don't see what he's done to get the benefit of the doubt. He has shown zero elite skill in any area. He can't maintain a pocket, he can't make difficult throws, he can't make good decisions with the ball. It's game 15 of the season and he got both decent coaching and decent play around him and he acted like a petulant child for half the game and couldn't make a single play to help the team win. He sucks.

 

[Jinhocho]

I think he got a pass because he seemed so likeable last year and if you were being honest his performance suggested he could continue to grow despite the disappointing finish to the season. This year he questioned the coordinator situation, the new plays and offense in camp and came across as more entitled than he should have. The failures of the early season offense when they tried to push the ball downfield were a good bit on him. He got hurt came back and has shown nothing to suggest he is going to be any better than the end of last year. Top it all off he now bitches at his coaches regularly like he is Marino, Manning or Brady.

It is very clear the team has moved away from seeing him as a strength and moved to him as a weakness they have to work around. Chad Pennington seemed like a floor comp if all went well but not he seems like he will be lucky to be a good backup. Maybe they can fix him, but I think the best medicine for him is to make him earn every fucking snap going forward. I would give zappe and whoever else they bring in (brissett?) a chance to compete for the job next year.

The shitty thing is that against teams like the bills a low floor quarterback like Jones gives you no chance to advance in the playoffs.

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

I just don't get this line of thinking. It's not as though Mac has had some stinkers and some decent games. He's literally getting worse and hasn't had a good game all year, he's been absolute garbage all season (and you can go back to the last third of last season as well). I don't see what he's done to get the benefit of the doubt. He has shown zero elite skill in any area. He can't maintain a pocket, he can't make difficult throws, he can't make good decisions with the ball. It's game 15 of the season and he got both decent coaching and decent play around him and he acted like a petulant child for half the game and couldn't make a single play to help the team win. He sucks.

Decent coaching and playing yesterday? Outside of the running backs, he had WRs yesterday who dropped balls and also have zero ability to separate. His overthrow to Meyers down the seam was the most egregious error, to me, and even that could have been caught. I thought the play calling was better yesterday but you still had multiple times each drive where the play was coming in very late and players having to be told where to line up and it was a race against the play clock. The whole operation offensively is a dumpster fire.

 

[Deathofthebambino]

Decent coaching and playing yesterday? Outside of the running backs, he had WRs yesterday who dropped balls and also have zero ability to separate. His overthrow to Meyers down the seam was the most egregious error, to me, and even that could have been caught. I thought the play calling was better yesterday but you still had multiple times each drive where the play was coming in very late and players having to be told where to line up and it was a race against the play clock. The whole operation offensively is a dumpster fire.

I've been trying to go back and find one catch that a receiver made for Mac yesterday that didn't require him to make a perfect throw or a receiver wasn't wide open. If they don't get separation, they don't make plays. You know, a play where we can write the words "the receiver made a play on the ball." Just one.

All I ever hear is "that pass was short," that pass was "behind him" that pass was less than perfect. But all day and all week, I watch football players on opposing teams make those fucking catches. If people think Mahomes and Allen and Burrow are making perfect throws right on the numbers on every play, I've got news for you, they aren't. Hunter Henry needs to make that catch as an NFL tight end. Thornton needs to get his feet down. Agholor needs to get his feet down. Bourne? Every time a shit play like that happens, it changes the entire complexion of a drive.

Mac was not good yesterday, that's for damned sure, but once again, he got absolutely no help from the guys that need to help their QB's. If they aren't schemed wide open, and he doesn't make a perfect throw, they can't catch the ball. That's too much to put on any quarterback, never mind Mac. Shit, in high school as a wide receiver, I was told if you put two hands on a ball, you're expected to come down with it. These guys get 2 hands on a ball, and Mac gets shit on because they had to lift their arms above their chests to make the catch.

And at the end of the day, Mac left the field with a 7 point lead and 2 minutes on the clock. They got boned by an awful call by the refs, and then he came in and was getting ready to head to overtime when his #1 receiver had arguably the biggest brain fart in NFL history.

it is what it is, I guess. I hope folks run him out of town, and he has success somewhere else. He deserves it. I've wanted to see Zappe for weeks, so we can put to rest the speculation that he could make this thing go. At this point, if I were Mac, I'd turn an ankle and give everyone what they want.

This is Marquez Valdez-Scantling. IMO, he's not a very good receiver. But he does this all the time for Mahomes:

https://www.chiefs.com/video/touchdown-patrick-mahomes-slings-td-toss-to-diving-marquez-valdes-scantling-befo

https://www.chiefs.com/video/one-handed-grab-marquez-valdes-scantling-s-toe-drag-grab-goes-for-36-yard-gain

https://www.chiefs.com/video/marquez-valdes-scantling-s-two-clutch-catches-inside-scoop-week-13

These are the kinds of throws that fall incomplete, kill drives and we blame Mac for the throw or the decision. But everywhere around the NFL on a weekly basis, guys make these plays.

And of course, none of that matters yesterday if BB doesn't call timeout right before Mac throws a touchdown. It doesn't happen if Jonnu doesn't jump on the sneak for a touchdown, etc. No help.

People keep talking about Mac not throwing touchdowns recently. He threw one to Henry who most folks thought should have been a TD, but Henry didn't hold on. He threw one to Meyers which was a dime, but Meyers got his head taken off by an illegal hit, and he threw one yesterday, but BB called a timeout.

No help.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Mac left the field with a 7 point lead because Stevenson ran for nearly 200 yards and Dugger had a pick 6. He had nothing to do with the lead.

Mac was 12 for 31 for 112 yards. His receivers may not be helping him much but that level of play is Peterman-esque and isn't acceptable. Being THAT bad isn't a receiver problem. It's a QB problem.

One of his throws was 39 yards to Meyers. Other than that? 11 for 30 for 73 yards.

I don't think Zappe is the answer either. But Mac isn't it. He stinks, man. And it sucks.

 

[Prodigal Sox]

I wish we could debate his "intangibles". To me it's his tangibles that are lacking. His accuracy and field vision were awful yesterday, and have been most of this season. His pocket presence and ability to avoid rushers is also bad (granted, the OL has largely been terrible for most of this season).

Yeah there is no way to quantify this but besides his physical limitations a good portion of his problems seem to be in his head/maturity.

 

[Koufax]

To my untrained eye, the OL seemed to be doing a decent job in providing protection yesterday. So Mac does not have that excuse to fall back on.

 

[Deathofthebambino]

Mac left the field with a 7 point lead because Stevenson ran for nearly 200 yards and Dugger had a pick 6. He had nothing to do with the lead.

Mac was 12 for 31 for 112 yards. His receivers may not be helping him much but that level of play is Peterman-esque and isn't acceptable. Being THAT bad isn't a receiver problem. It's a QB problem.

One of his throws was 39 yards to Meyers. Other than that? 11 for 30 for 73 yards.

I don't think Zappe is the answer either. But Mac isn't it. He stinks, man. And it sucks.

In the last 5 regular season games in 2001, Tom Brady went 86/139 for 974 yards, he had 2td's, 5 interceptions, 3 fumbles and got sacked 15 times.

The Pats went 5-0.

Again, Mac was bad yesterday, but he didn't make mistakes that cost them the game. He also got no help from the receivers, again. If Agholor comes down with his feet in bounds like an NFL receiver, how do things turn out. If BB doesn't call timeout and Mac gets the TD, how do things turn out. If Henry doesn't drop a third down pass that hit him the hands, how does that drive turn out? Thornton steps out of bounds, Bourne drops one, etc. This happens week after week, but we almost never see a guy make a play. If receivers never made plays on other teams, a lot of QB's stats would look like Mac's yesterday. Even the non-catch by Cole to tie the game would be one of the best plays a Pats receiver would have made all year.

And at the end of the day, I care about one thing, wins and losses (and I'm pretty sure you feel the same way). People can say that Mac played poorly yesterday, which he did, but the Pats should have still won that game.

 

[jezza1918]

Mac left the field with a 7 point lead because Stevenson ran for nearly 200 yards and Dugger had a pick 6. He had nothing to do with the lead.

Mac was 12 for 31 for 112 yards. His receivers may not be helping him much but that level of play is Peterman-esque and isn't acceptable. Being THAT bad isn't a receiver problem. It's a QB problem.

One of his throws was 39 yards to Meyers. Other than that? 11 for 30 for 73 yards.

I don't think Zappe is the answer either. But Mac isn't it. He stinks, man. And it sucks.

Two caveats before I start: 1. I do not think Mac is the guy 2. I have not seen slow mo breakdowns of a few of the plays BUT...how do we think we'd be talking about Mac today if some of the following happens and they win:
1. Thornton executes a toe tap on the sideline for a decently long completion
2. Nelson does the same...
3. Nelson wins a contested ball downfield that was in his hands
4. the TO isnt called negating a TD
5. Henry doesnt let a ball go through his hands

edit: or, what @Deathofthebambino said seconds before I did

 

[brandonchristensen]

As much as I think Mac sucks - he's been 'better' the last few weeks. No excuse for yesterday, but still.

The Tampa Bay QB had a pretty inexplicable second half yesterday, but I would trust him going forward.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

I hesitate to raise this because emotions are still high but is a matchup versus a McDaniels coached opponent an ideal one for Mac? Josh may not be a great HC but I think we have ample evidence that he knows what works/doesn't for QBs in general and more specifically how Jones is likely to respond to certain types of pressure etc.

I understand the Raiders pass defense is bad but perhaps some of Mac's struggles yesterday were a function of playing someone who has institutional knowledge of players and scheme.

 

[8slim]

In the last 5 regular season games in 2001, Tom Brady went 86/139 for 974 yards, he had 2td's, 5 interceptions, 3 fumbles and got sacked 15 times.

The Pats went 5-0.

Again, Mac was bad yesterday, but he didn't make mistakes that cost them the game. He also got no help from the receivers, again. If Agholor comes down with his feet in bounds like an NFL receiver, how do things turn out. If BB doesn't call timeout and Mac gets the TD, how do things turn out. If Henry doesn't drop a third down pass that hit him the hands, how does that drive turn out? Thornton steps out of bounds, Bourne drops one, etc. This happens week after week, but we almost never see a guy make a play. If receivers never made plays on other teams, a lot of QB's stats would look like Mac's yesterday. Even the non-catch by Cole to tie the game would be one of the best plays a Pats receiver would have made all year.

And at the end of the day, I care about one thing, wins and losses (and I'm pretty sure you feel the same way). People can say that Mac played poorly yesterday, which he did, but the Pats should have still won that game.

Two caveats before I start: 1. I do not think Mac is the guy 2. I have not seen slow mo breakdowns of a few of the plays BUT...how do we think we'd be talking about Mac today if some of the following happens and they win:
1. Thornton executes a toe tap on the sideline for a decently long completion
2. Nelson does the same...
3. Nelson wins a contested ball downfield that was in his hands
4. the TO isnt called negating a TD
5. Henry doesnt let a ball go through his hands

edit: or, what @Deathofthebambino said seconds before I did

FWIW, this is why I feel that stats are far from the be-all, end-all in football that they largely are in baseball. There are way too many variables and contingencies, and the sample size is too small.

Now, aside from these what-its, Mac was lousy yesterday. He missed more than a few open receivers, and one would have been a TD (the toss to Jonnu that he overthrew badly). So *some* of these what-ifs evened out and the balance was pretty bad.

I do wish he had better coaching, a better OL and better receivers. We'd know more about him if he did. What we know now is that he can't overcome all three of those impediments, or likely any 1-or-2 as well it seems.

 

[8slim]

I hesitate to raise this because emotions are still high but is a matchup versus a McDaniels coached opponent an ideal one for Mac? Josh may not be a great HC but I think we have ample evidence that he knows what works/doesn't for QBs in general and more specifically how Jones is likely to respond to certain types of pressure etc.

I understand the Raiders pass defense is bad but perhaps some of Mac's struggles yesterday were a function of playing someone who has institutional knowledge of players and scheme.

It's certainly possible. But I can't say it ever struck me during the game that Mac was being uniquely flummoxed by something the Raiders were doing defensively. I'm sure someone more adept at the Xs and Os could say more definitively.

 

[E5 Yaz]

I hesitate to raise this because emotions are still high but is a matchup versus a McDaniels coached opponent an ideal one for Mac? Josh may not be a great HC but I think we have ample evidence that he knows what works/doesn't for QBs in general and more specifically how Jones is likely to respond to certain types of pressure etc.

I understand the Raiders pass defense is bad but perhaps some of Mac's struggles yesterday were a function of playing someone who has institutional knowledge of players and scheme.

I was struck yesterday by the extended chat Josh and Mac had after the game, to the point where they made Belichick wait a moment before he could bro-hug Josh. Words of encouragement, probably, but it made me think once again that if McDaniels was still the OC would he have been able to guide Mac to build upon his first season

 

[Jinhocho]

I hesitate to raise this because emotions are still high but is a matchup versus a McDaniels coached opponent an ideal one for Mac? Josh may not be a great HC but I think we have ample evidence that he knows what works/doesn't for QBs in general and more specifically how Jones is likely to respond to certain types of pressure etc.

I understand the Raiders pass defense is bad but perhaps some of Mac's struggles yesterday were a function of playing someone who has institutional knowledge of players and scheme.

Seems like the book on Jones is take away the intermediate game. He can't beat you deep and lacks the wherewithal to make you pay in the short game over a whole game. He chooses the check down way too much

 

[Garshaparra]

I was struck yesterday by the extended chat Josh and Mac had after the game, to the point where they made Belichick wait a moment before he could bro-hug Josh. Words of encouragement, probably, but it made me think once again that if McDaniels was still the OC would he have been able to guide Mac to build upon his first season

"Tough game there, Mac. Hey, if I get fired here, maybe I'll see you in Foxboro next year?"

 

[jezza1918]

FWIW, this is why I feel that stats are far from the be-all, end-all in football that they largely are in baseball. There are way too many variables and contingencies, and the sample size is too small.

Now, aside from these what-its, Mac was lousy yesterday. He missed more than a few open receivers, and one would have been a TD (the toss to Jonnu that he overthrew badly). So *some* of these what-ifs evened out and the balance was pretty bad.

I do wish he had better coaching, a better OL and better receivers. We'd know more about him if he did. What we know now is that he can't overcome all three of those impediments, or likely any 1-or-2 as well it seems.

In total agreement. I should've finished the point I started in that if some of those things I listed had happened, and they won...the chatter would be FAR less extreme today methinks.

 

[Deathofthebambino]

"Tough game there, Mac. Hey, if I get fired here, maybe I'll see you in Foxboro next year?"

Or maybe "Tough game there Mac. Hey, if you get fired there, maybe I'll see you in Vegas after we get done with this 40+ million a year we're spending on Derrick Carr."

 

[E5 Yaz]

Or maybe "Tough game there Mac. Hey, if you get fired there, maybe I'll see you in Vegas after we get done with this 40+ million a year we're spending on Derrick Carr."

That was actually what was going on in the back of mind when I posted that.

 

[Traut]

Top scoring offenses in the NFL in 2022 are KC, Buffalo, and Philadelphia. All of those teams have QBs who are true dual threats. Mahomes doesn't run like Allen or Hurts but has mobility on a completely different level than Jones and presents a threat to move about and make plays.

You can win without a QB who isn't mobile as evidenced by last year's Super Bowl of Stafford and Burrow. It is just those teams had true elite weapons and Burrow and Stafford are both closer to Brady than they are Jones.

I agree with the others. It is time to move on from Jones. He is not the next Matt Stafford which is what this team would need him to be in order to compete.

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

Seems like the book on Jones is take away the intermediate game. He can't beat you deep and lacks the wherewithal to make you pay in the short game over a whole game. He chooses the check down way too much

This is not a Mac gameplan. It is a Patriots gameplan. Who is the deep threat? Thornton and Agholor are supposed to be those players and Agholor, outside of the contested catch TD in Pittsburgh, has shown an inability to consistently catch the football in coverage. Thornton seems to be being used on quick hitters and crossers. Outside of yesterday, the line has struggled to protect most of the year. Why would a defense even have to gameplan for a passing game that can't execute a pass in the air over 10 yards?

I have no idea if Mac is the long term solution but this year and the cluster f that is the offense has prevented me from forming an opinion one way or another. Bill giving the offense and the second year of development in a QB you need to make a decision on at the end of year three to Patricia/Judge is indefensible. That is what the most frustrating aspect for me with all of this is.

 

[Ed Hillel]

I hesitate to raise this because emotions are still high but is a matchup versus a McDaniels coached opponent an ideal one for Mac? Josh may not be a great HC but I think we have ample evidence that he knows what works/doesn't for QBs in general and more specifically how Jones is likely to respond to certain types of pressure etc.

I understand the Raiders pass defense is bad but perhaps some of Mac's struggles yesterday were a function of playing someone who has institutional knowledge of players and scheme.

No, he was just making terrible throws and decisions. Trust me, I've spent plenty of time cogitating regarding the blame game on offense, but yesterday it was pretty darned clear. Mac was the problem.

 

[DJnVa]

I think he got a pass because he seemed so likeable last year and if you were being honest his performance suggested he could continue to grow despite the disappointing finish to the season. This year he questioned the coordinator situation, the new plays and offense in camp and came across as more entitled than he should have.

Except he was right. And I don't think he just "seemed likeable" to us. It seems like a lot of the players really responded to him.

It'll be interesting to see what this offseason brings. The coaches and the players are at an inflection point.

 

[FL4WL3SS]

In the last 5 regular season games in 2001, Tom Brady went 86/139 for 974 yards, he had 2td's, 5 interceptions, 3 fumbles and got sacked 15 times.

The Pats went 5-0.

Again, Mac was bad yesterday, but he didn't make mistakes that cost them the game. He also got no help from the receivers, again. If Agholor comes down with his feet in bounds like an NFL receiver, how do things turn out. If BB doesn't call timeout and Mac gets the TD, how do things turn out. If Henry doesn't drop a third down pass that hit him the hands, how does that drive turn out? Thornton steps out of bounds, Bourne drops one, etc. This happens week after week, but we almost never see a guy make a play. If receivers never made plays on other teams, a lot of QB's stats would look like Mac's yesterday. Even the non-catch by Cole to tie the game would be one of the best plays a Pats receiver would have made all year.

And at the end of the day, I care about one thing, wins and losses (and I'm pretty sure you feel the same way). People can say that Mac played poorly yesterday, which he did, but the Pats should have still won that game.

Jesus Christ man, if the bar is so low that "he didn't make mistakes" is the standard and the expectation is that your QB can throw for 100y per game with no TD passes, then why aren't we playing Hoyer and saving a bunch of money on the QB position? Your post is filled with a bunch of "ifs", just like the majority of posters giving Mac the benefit of the doubt (if his receivers could catch, if his OL was better, if the coaching was better, if if if if). In a game where the RB ran for 200 yards, your QB should have been able to go HAM on the defense.

I would have rather have pulled Fitzmagic from the booth for this game, they would have crushed it. In fact, this season would be infinitely more fun with him at QB.

I can't believe people are still defending this guy when we regularly trash on other teams for their terrible QB situations. I mean fuck, people were trashing all over Fields after a few games last year. He may not amount to much more than he is now, but he's far better than Mac.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Two caveats before I start: 1. I do not think Mac is the guy 2. I have not seen slow mo breakdowns of a few of the plays BUT...how do we think we'd be talking about Mac today if some of the following happens and they win:
1. Thornton executes a toe tap on the sideline for a decently long completion
2. Nelson does the same...
3. Nelson wins a contested ball downfield that was in his hands
4. the TO isnt called negating a TD
5. Henry doesnt let a ball go through his hands

edit: or, what @Deathofthebambino said seconds before I did

I mean #2 and #3 are easy completions with better throws, #2 is a tough catch because Mac leads him too far outside for no reason (no Safety coming over), and #3 is contested because he has to completely stop and come back when wide open. Even then... yes if his passcatchers make 1 pretty easy catch and 3 outstanding catches, maybe he looks better on paper, but on tape... he was awful. Conversely... what if the CB catches a terrible throw and returns it, which could easily have happened. What if that Agholor contested catch is picked because it's underthrown... what if that horrific lofted screen to nobody gets picked.... Mac made a ton of non-competitive throws, hoping that his WRs make insane catches isn't a defense of him. Also... the easiest way for his stat line to be better would be if he hadn't missed a bunch of open WRs (Agholor could easily have had 2-3 TDs if we swapped QBs).

 

[jezza1918]

I mean #2 and #3 are easy completions with better throws, #2 is a tough catch because Mac leads him too far outside for no reason (no Safety coming over), and #3 is contested because he has to completely stop and come back when wide open. Even then... yes if his passcatchers make 1 pretty easy catch and 3 outstanding catches, maybe he looks better on paper, but on tape... he was awful. Conversely... what if the CB catches a terrible throw and returns it, which could easily have happened. What if that Agholor contested catch is picked because it's underthrown... what if that horrific lofted screen to nobody gets picked.... Mac made a ton of non-competitive throws, hoping that his WRs make insane catches isn't a defense of him. Also... the easiest way for his stat line to be better would be if he hadn't missed a bunch of open WRs (Agholor could easily have had 2-3 TDs if we swapped QBs).

All totally fair. I guess overall my point isn't "defending Mac" as @FL4WL3SS just put it in his post. It's that there is a lot of blame to go around, and he deserves a LOT of it...just not as much as he tends to get IMO. Though I do get it's kind of the nature of the beast with the QB position. Just think there is more nuance to it, that's all.

 

[Deathofthebambino]

I can't believe people are still defending this guy when we regularly trash on other teams for their terrible QB situations. I mean fuck, people were trashing all over Fields after a few games last year. He may not amount to much more than he is now, but he's far better than Mac.

Yeah, Justin Fields (who I wanted to draft) is 3-10 this year, and 5-18 over his first 2 seasons. He's got 22td's and 20 interceptions, and 27 fumbles over that span. He completes 60.5% of his passes, has a career rating of 80.7 (88.0 this season) and has been sacked a league leading 46 times this season.

If you put him behind this offensive line, with this coaching, he'd either be broken in half, or suck just as bad and likely worse. But I can guarantee you that folks would be running his ass out of town just like they are doing with Mac.

Justin Fields is another example of what happens to a guy when you put nothing around them.

 

[FL4WL3SS]

All totally fair. I guess overall my point isn't "defending Mac" as @FL4WL3SS just put it in his post. It's that there is a lot of blame to go around, and he deserves a LOT of it...just not as much as he tends to get IMO. Though I do get it's kind of the nature of the beast with the QB position. Just think there is more nuance to it, that's all.

QBs are going to make bad throws. We saw that from Carr last night (and folks were commenting on how bad he was, which was ironic). I don't blame him for the occasional bad throw, but then you see a guy like Carr throw some dimes and make a series of great plays and it's so defeating because you know your QB can't do that.

I can't blame the guy for trying, you can see he cares and is putting in effort, he's just not very good.

 

[jezza1918]

QBs are going to make bad throws. We saw that from Carr last night (and folks were commenting on how bad he was, which was ironic). I don't blame him for the occasional bad throw, but then you see a guy like Carr throw some dimes and make a series of great plays and it's so defeating because you know your QB can't do that.

I can't blame the guy for trying, you can see he cares and is putting in effort, he's just not very good.

Yup. I feel this post...I think on some level I just feel bad for the guy because while Im on record as saying he isnt the long term guy, he showed enough in year one that he'd probably get paid pretty decently after his rookie contract by someone. But because of a fair amount of external factors outside his control he is regressing a ton. Is there a track record for a qb with this much regression in year 2?

 

[Deathofthebambino]

I mean #2 and #3 are easy completions with better throws, #2 is a tough catch because Mac leads him too far outside for no reason (no Safety coming over), and #3 is contested because he has to completely stop and come back when wide open. Even then... yes if his passcatchers make 1 pretty easy catch and 3 outstanding catches, maybe he looks better on paper, but on tape... he was awful. Conversely... what if the CB catches a terrible throw and returns it, which could easily have happened. What if that Agholor contested catch is picked because it's underthrown... what if that horrific lofted screen to nobody gets picked.... Mac made a ton of non-competitive throws, hoping that his WRs make insane catches isn't a defense of him. Also... the easiest way for his stat line to be better would be if he hadn't missed a bunch of open WRs (Agholor could easily have had 2-3 TDs if we swapped QBs).

How many catches did the Patriots make yesterday (or all season long for that matter) that weren't easy catches? They almost never, ever make a difficult catch.

Most NFL receivers playing on the outside make that catch that Agholor stepped out on. Most of them make the one he had bounce off his hands last week. All of them make the one Hunter Henry dropped for a first down.

The Thornton ball that he couldn't get two feet down is an automatic catch in the NFL today. These aren't "insane" catches. An insane catch is what Justin Jefferson did against Buffalo. We see amazing/insane catches all the time in the NFL, multiple times a game, in fact. The Pats receivers do nothing, unless they are wide open and get hit right in the chest, and in Agholor's case, he sometimes fucks those up too.

Again, Mac played terrible, but it's ok for folks to acknowledge he's getting almost zero help from his receivers.

 

[Marciano490]

I’m just sad he slimmed down so much in the offseason. Baby fat Mac with that extra 20 pounds might’ve been able to take Chandler down.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

I’m just sad he slimmed down so much in the offseason. Baby fat Mac with that extra 20 pounds might’ve been able to take Chandler down.

The guy is already unathletic and slow, I'd hate to see how badly his tackle attempt would have gone while lugging around another piano on his back.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Again, Mac played terrible, but it's ok for folks to acknowledge he's getting almost zero help from his receivers.

If Mac constantly needs help from his receivers on every single throw, then Mac is the problem. Other QBs in the league can still be productive whenever things aren't perfect. Mac is ONLY decently productive when things are perfect. He's not good enough to overcome the slightest bit of adversity.

Reagor cost Cousins 2 INTs on Saturday because he gave up on routes and moved mid-throw. One of those was a pick 6. And Cousins is not a great QB but he managed to battle through it. Mac never does.

If your QB needs everything to go right to be decent, he's a terrible QB.

 

[The Social Chair]

Mac was lousy today against a terrible D and in the least hostile road environment imaginable.

I’d really like to see him get to work with an actual OC and QB coach again before we totally write him off. But we should at the very least bring in a vet this offseason who could plausibly start. And that doesn’t mean Brian freakin’ Hoyer.

This is where I'm at. Trevor Lawrence is example of what coaching malpractice can do to a QB. Jones deserves another year with a real coaching staff.

 

[FL4WL3SS]

This is where I'm at. Trevor Lawrence is example of what coaching malpractice can do to a QB. Jones deserves another year with a real coaching staff.

Why does he deserve anything? In a league where most guys are out of it within 2 years because they suck, I don't see why he should deserve anything. If anything, as paying customers, we deserve to watch better football.

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

If Mac constantly needs help from his receivers on every single throw, then Mac is the problem. Other QBs in the league can still be productive whenever things aren't perfect. Mac is ONLY decently productive when things are perfect. He's not good enough to overcome the slightest bit of adversity.

Reagor cost Cousins 2 INTs on Saturday because he gave up on routes and moved mid-throw. One of those was a pick 6. And Cousins is not a great QB but he managed to battle through it. Mac never does.

If your QB needs everything to go right to be decent, he's a terrible QB.

Yes. Cousins battled through it with the lackluster supporting cast of Justin Jefferson, Adam Thielen , and TJ Hockenson.

Mac doesn't need everything to be right but he does need something.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Yes. Cousins battled through it with the lackluster supporting cast of Justin Jefferson, Adam Thielen , and TJ Hockenson.

Mac doesn't need everything to be right but he does need something.

Obviously those guys are better but I think the quality of Mac's receiving corps is nowhere near as bad as being portrayed here. Mac simply isn't hitting these guys.

He has an incredible running game, one that Dan Marino wishes he had. He has a great defense as well. We need to stop acting like he's got nothing out there. The running game should be able to free up some targets. The defense should get him back on the field quickly and without putting him in a hole. But he does nothing with these advantages.

He stinks. And part of the reason he stinks is that he cannot battle through adversity at all. His frustrations are showing and are getting worse and he seems to be unable to control himself. That's a negative for the team.

 

[Deathofthebambino]

If Mac constantly needs help from his receivers on every single throw, then Mac is the problem. Other QBs in the league can still be productive whenever things aren't perfect. Mac is ONLY decently productive when things are perfect. He's not good enough to overcome the slightest bit of adversity.

Reagor cost Cousins 2 INTs on Saturday because he gave up on routes and moved mid-throw. One of those was a pick 6. And Cousins is not a great QB but he managed to battle through it. Mac never does.

If your QB needs everything to go right to be decent, he's a terrible QB.

He doesn't need help on every single throw. He needs help on ANY of his throws. And when this season have things ever been perfect?

Reagor was in the game on one of those int's, because Jefferson had left the game dinged up. Please don't get me going on Kirk Cousins. Dude throws the ball into traffic and has the best receiver on Earth coming down with it regularly. If not for Jefferson and Theilen and Cook, they suck, and their GM still went and got him Hockenson, and they have one of the best fullbacks in the NFL. Those receivers make more plays in one week than Mac's receivers make in 10 games.

And that's completely discounting a terrible offensive line, and the worst set of offensive coaches in the NFL, and they should have still been 8-6 after yesterday.

 

[8slim]

Obviously those guys are better but I think the quality of Mac's receiving corps is nowhere near as bad as being portrayed here. Mac simply isn't hitting these guys.

He stinks. And part of the reason he stinks is that he cannot battle through adversity at all. His frustrations are showing and are getting worse and he seems to be unable to control himself. That's a negative for the team.

I think we overrate our WR corps, to be honest. Is there a single guy that any DC spends time worrying about when gameplanning? Does a secondary ever need to account for one of our WRs? Brady spent the 2019 season screaming at his WRs every game, and that unit had Edelman on it (and a functional Sanu before he got hurt). It doesn't absolve Mac of his issues, but IMHO our WRs are some of the worst in the league as a unit.

 

[rodderick]

I think we overrate our WR corps, to be honest. Is there a single guy that any DC spends time worrying about when gameplanning? Does a secondary ever need to account for one of our WRs? Brady spent the 2019 season screaming at his WRs every game, and that unit had Edelman on it (and a functional Sanu before he got hurt). It doesn't absolve Mac of his issues, but IMHO our WRs are some of the worst in the league as a unit.

In what universe is Sanu any better a player than Bourne/Agholor/Meyers/Parker? If Brady "had Sanu", what Mac has is more than enough. 2019 Edelman was ridiculously banged up all season as well and the TE corps was the worst positional group in all of football. Those groups of pass catchers aren't comparable.

I'm sorry, Bourne/Agholor/Meyers/Parker/Thornton/Henry/Smith is fine. It's not great, it lacks top end talent, but it should be enough to get some offense going. It was last year.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

I think we overrate our WR corps, to be honest. Is there a single guy that any DC spends time worrying about when gameplanning? Does a secondary ever need to account for one of our WRs? Brady spent the 2019 season screaming at his WRs every game, and that unit had Edelman on it (and a functional Sanu before he got hurt). It doesn't absolve Mac of his issues, but IMHO our WRs are some of the worst in the league as a unit.

Sanu was effective for one game before his high ankle sprain which ruined him.

I am not saying out receivers are great or anything, but I am pushing back at the idea that Mac is fine but the receivers don't catch anything. I disagree. They have a lot of vets who have been around a while who know how to play the position. Agholor is a meme but he's got 340 career catches, for example.

Mac isn't seeing guys, is inaccurate, and is making very poor decisions on the field. He's increasingly ineffective as the year goes on. The receivers have to make tough catches because Mac never puts the ball on a dine to them. Should they catch more of them? Sure, I guess. But the QB is making thing as difficult as possible for them to do so.

 

[lexrageorge]

I think both of the following can be true:

The Pats receivers seldom, if ever, make great plays on their own. Too often they miss catches that other receivers on other teams could have made.

Mac is currently not good at throwing the football, missing too many open receivers even when given time (and he had tons of time against the Raiders).

 

[Deathofthebambino]

I think we overrate our WR corps, to be honest. Is there a single guy that any DC spends time worrying about when gameplanning? Does a secondary ever need to account for one of our WRs? Brady spent the 2019 season screaming at his WRs every game, and that unit had Edelman on it (and a functional Sanu before he got hurt). It doesn't absolve Mac of his issues, but IMHO our WRs are some of the worst in the league as a unit.

I want to know who is making this catch for Mac:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vInDhOoJ1jA


Or this one:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zojN0tfjP08


Or this one (I'm sure if our receiver didn't make the play, we'd blame Mac for underthrowing it)

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_0dGCumdcA


He'd probably get dinged for overthrowing this one:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vA-M8BvKXn4



I could literally do these all day. Our guys do NOT make these plays on imperfect balls.

 

[8slim]

In what universe is Sanu any better a player than Bourne/Agholor/Meyers/Parker? If Brady "had Sanu", what Mac has is more than enough. 2019 Edelman was ridiculously banged up all season as well and the TE corps was the worst positional group in all of football. Those groups of pass catchers aren't comparable.

I'm sorry, Bourne/Agholor/Meyers/Parker/Thornton/Henry/Smith is fine. It's not great, it lacks top end talent, but it should be enough to get some offense going. It was last year.

In Sanu's second game as a Pat he had 10 catches for 81 yards and a TD. I think that's better than any game Bourne, Algholor or Parker has ever had here. That could have been all Brady, for sure.

A "banged up" Edelman had 100 catches and the D had to account for him every snap he was on the field.

But again, does any DC worry about anyone on our WR unit?

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Mac can't even throw the ball deep enough for those plays to be made. He tried going deep a couple of times yesterday and the catches weren't made because the ball was short and the receiver had to come back and try to catch it with the DB in his gut.

Giving Mac a Mike Williams would be a silly waste of resources.

 

[Super Nomario]

And at the end of the day, I care about one thing, wins and losses (and I'm pretty sure you feel the same way). People can say that Mac played poorly yesterday, which he did, but the Pats should have still won that game.

OK, but they didn't win the game, and a big reason they didn't was Mac sucked out loud. They had six(!) passing first downs against one of the worst pass defenses in football.

 

[rodderick]

I want to know who is making this catch for Mac:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vInDhOoJ1jA


Or this one:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zojN0tfjP08


Or this one (I'm sure if our receiver didn't make the play, we'd blame Mac for underthrowing it)

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_0dGCumdcA


He'd probably get dinged for overthrowing this one:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vA-M8BvKXn4



I could literally do these all day. Our guys do NOT make these plays on imperfect balls.

I'm just laughing at the thought of Mac attempting these Justin Herbert plays. That's like 99.99999 percentile arm talent. Maybe there's a reason his guys never make those catches for him. Does he make those throws?

 

[8slim]

Sanu was effective for one game before his high ankle sprain which ruined him.

I am not saying out receivers are great or anything, but I am pushing back at the idea that Mac is fine but the receivers don't catch anything. I disagree. They have a lot of vets who have been around a while who know how to play the position. Agholor is a meme but he's got 340 career catches, for example.

Mac isn't seeing guys, is inaccurate, and is making very poor decisions on the field. He's increasingly ineffective as the year goes on. The receivers have to make tough catches because Mac never puts the ball on a dine to them. Should they catch more of them? Sure, I guess. But the QB is making thing as difficult as possible for them to do so.

I agree that it's both. Mac isn't playing well *and* our WR corps is inadequate. I'm sure they'd be OK with prime Brady throwing to them, but that's not exactly a fair expectation for anyone.