No it won'tHarden's performance last night and calling out of the officials this season, including his complaint that the presence of only two refs impacted this game's outcome (funny he didn't acknowledge the two silly techs that the Rockets benefitted from after PJ Tucker fell and the C's were called for a foul) will likely negatively impact his MVP chances.
Not that either is an objective measure but NBA radio and Twitter say otherwise.No it won't
Not to mention Shane Larkin getting called for a foul for getting himself clotheslined.Harden's performance last night and calling out of the officials this season, including his complaint that the presence of only two refs impacted this game's outcome (funny he didn't acknowledge the two silly techs that the Rockets benefitted from after PJ Tucker fell and the C's were called for a foul) will likely negatively impact his MVP chances.
Dude was like 7-27 last night. That wasn't because of refs.Harden's performance last night and calling out of the officials this season, including his complaint that the presence of only two refs impacted this game's outcome (funny he didn't acknowledge the two silly techs that the Rockets benefitted from after PJ Tucker fell and the C's were called for a foul) will likely negatively impact his MVP chances.
Regardless of his MVP chances, I think it's a pretty clear indicator that he's not as mentally strong as other top players, which we already knew from last year's performance against the Spurs.Harden's performance last night and calling out of the officials this season, including his complaint that the presence of only two refs impacted this game's outcome (funny he didn't acknowledge the two silly techs that the Rockets benefitted from after PJ Tucker fell and the C's were called for a foul) will likely negatively impact his MVP chances.
To be clear, I like Harden and think his game, including his ability to get to the line, is brilliant. Furthermore, the guy is a leader in just about every stat that counts. However his recent performances on bigger stages coupled with his complaints have likely bolstered the case for LeBron and others.
At the end of the day, I am not someone who cares much about something like the MVP but its fascinating to see how those around the league keep trying to anoint a new "best player" only to find that they are simply not near as impactful as the actual best player in the game.
Harden clearly doesn't have a ton of self-awareness, which is pretty much the opposite of Kyrie. Kyrie's approach seemed to be "welp, there's 2 refs, so some wacky shit is going to happen," which seems to have been a lot healthier.Not to mention Shane Larkin getting called for a foul for getting himself clotheslined.
Edit: Thanks for splitting this out and adding a great thread title.
The first play could be categorized as a flop, but that is not mutually exclusive from an offensive foul. Smart wanted to make sure he got under Harden’s skin before the inbound, trying to generate a tension that would force Harden to give him a clear shove and sell the contact. So Smart starts by hugging Harden and getting him riled up.
When Harden gives him a push, Smart locks under Harden’s arm to force a big push off from the Beard. When it comes, Smart throws his head back, slips out a foot to sell it and goes down hard. Perfect flop. Legit foul. Winning effing play.
The video of the second call (at the link) makes it pretty clear - there was extended contact there, largely created by Harden, ending with an unneccessary shove. Harden was irritated, and lost his head.The second foul is essentially the same thing. Smart knows he can grapple in the final minute. So his goal is to say so tight into his opponent’s airspace and hold his ground so hard, that they have to push off to get any separation and he knows exactly when to go down.
Smart does not go down on the initial hit here. He knows it’s too obvious and he won’t get the call. His brilliance is in his patience, waiting for Harden to commit all his momentum into his territory. Smart puts his hands up and keeps trying to hold his ground until Harden steps under him. Then he takes the hit and goes down.
The guy is a beast. This seems way off regarding his explosiveness and size.He isn't that explosive, and he's actually not THAT big for his position when not playing the 1
he's 6'5" 220 which is fine for a 2, but not particularly big. He's definitely not that explosive, unbelievably skilled for sure, but he's not a guy who blows by you or jumps over you on pure athleticism. It's a Pierce vs. T-Mac kind of thingThe guy is a beast. This seems way off regarding his explosiveness and size.
Agreed ... his whole game is predicated on junk moves that lure the defender into committing questionable fouls (see link). It was amusing to see the tables turned against him by Smart on this occasion.Harden is a guy who depends a ton on a friendly whistle. To an extent I don't think any NBA player I remember can match.
Not that explosive? I guess. But the guy gets by virtually any defender seemingly with ease all game long, night in and night out.he's 6'5" 220 which is fine for a 2, but not particularly big. He's definitely not that explosive, unbelievably skilled for sure, but he's not a guy who blows by you or jumps over you on pure athleticism. It's a Pierce vs. T-Mac kind of thing
His moves aren't "junk moves". He's an incredibly fundamentally sound player. Uses his eyes to move defenders, changes speeds beautifully, has a great jab step and step back, and has picture perfect shooting mechanics.Agreed ... his whole game is predicated on junk moves that lure the defender into committing questionable fouls (see link). It was amusing to see the tables turned against him by Smart on this occasion.
Yeah, shooting over 39% from 3 on 10+ attempts a game has nothing to do with it. Never mind his play making ability. He's not Corey Maggette.Agreed ... his whole game is predicated on junk moves that lure the defender into committing questionable fouls (see link). It was amusing to see the tables turned against him by Smart on this occasion.
So you didn't watch the video? That's not really what it's talking about. It's talking about things like when he has the ball and goes around a pick and the defender fights through it and if there's *any* contact he immediately "shoots" a three pointer and points out that he was fouled 9 times in a single playoff series while taking three pointers, and 8 times were on these plays.His moves aren't "junk moves". He's an incredibly fundamentally sound player. Uses his eyes to move defenders, changes speeds beautifully, has a great jab step and step back, and has picture perfect shooting mechanics.
That's not junk. That's great use of fundamental skills.
This was maybe the worst foul call I've seen all year. Just amazing. This was like a "his neck ran into my sword blade, your honor."Not to mention Shane Larkin getting called for a foul for getting himself clotheslined.
Agreed ... his whole game is predicated on junk moves that lure the defender into committing questionable fouls (see link). It was amusing to see the tables turned against him by Smart on this occasion.
Yes that's all true. Good point. I was responding to the line by Sox Puppet where he said, "his whole game is predicated on junk moves".So you didn't watch the video? That's not really what it's talking about. It's talking about things like when he has the ball and goes around a pick and the defender fights through it and if there's *any* contact he immediately "shoots" a three pointer and points out that he was fouled 9 times in a single playoff series while taking three pointers, and 8 times were on these plays.
I mean, I personally wouldn't characterize what he does as "junk" moves, but the things the video talks about aren't the things you're talking about. That doesn't mean he doesn't possess those skills, but that's not the point of the video. It's akin to how the Baltimore Ravens used to essentially rely on getting pass interference calls on deep throws down the field. That doesn't mean the WR and QB don't have other skills, but that in these instances they were essentially taking advantage of the way the game is called. And that's what this video is doing.
I'm pretty sure no one here thinks Harden isn't ridiculously talented. But he's also a whiner and a flopper, and it came to a head last night.
Bummer. In a better world, it would have been true.This is fake.
Like IT, you mean? Harden does a lot of stuff that doesn't qualify as that, BTW. Look at the way he routinely blew by Horford (who can generally defend a point or a wing after a switch) early in the game, or that there is no one better in the league at finding teammates for uncontested spot up threes.So you didn't watch the video? That's not really what it's talking about. It's talking about things like when he has the ball and goes around a pick and the defender fights through it and if there's *any* contact he immediately "shoots" a three pointer and points out that he was fouled 9 times in a single playoff series while taking three pointers, and 8 times were on these plays.
His game is dependent on whistles. In actuality, it's a very efficient use of his skills. He's a fine free throw shooter. And of course he runs the break and sets up for his teammates. But it's the basketball equivalent at being good at drawing pass interference calls or free/penalty kicks in soccer. It helps his team win, but some folks save more of their respect for the guy who makes the tough catch/goal and doesn't need gifts from officials to do it.Bummer. In a better world, it would have been true.
Like IT, you mean? Harden does a lot of stuff that doesn't qualify as that, BTW. Look at the way he routinely blew by Horford (who can generally defend a point or a wing after a switch) early in the game, or that there is no one better in the league at finding teammates for uncontested spot up threes.
I'm open to the argument that his production is more based in skill than in pure athleticism, but I don't see any issues with that. Production is production. I'm also open to the argument that as star players go, he is more whiny than most and more easily rattled by Marcus Smart.
But let's not go pretending the guy is a fraud because he does something that all point guards who can shoot from three, and Marcus Smart, also do.
Know who else has a game that is dependent on whistles? Isaiah Fucking Thomas.His game is dependent on whistles. In actuality, it's a very efficient use of his skills. He's a fine free throw shooter. And of course he runs the break and sets up for his teammates. But it's the basketball equivalent at being good at drawing pass interference calls or free/penalty kicks in soccer. It helps his team win, but some folks save more of their respect for the guy who makes the tough catch/goal and doesn't need gifts from officials to do it.
IT was my guy. That's different.Know who else has a game that is dependent on whistles? Isaiah Fucking Thomas.
Since 2015-16, Harden's per 36 minute average was 10.2 FTs/game, on a usage rate of 33.2. Over the same span, Thomas' er 36 minute average was 10.2 FTs/game, on slightly lower usage (31.2). Harden has also played more minutes and thus attempted more FTs. But, bottom line, IT is no less dependent on whistles. FTs accounted for 30% of Harden's points over that time frame (and 31% over his career). IT is at 26% since his first full season in Boston and 29% for his career.
I'll await your upcoming take on "it's OK for IT because he's vertically challenged" or "IT draws real fouls" or "IT and Harden are both bad for the game".
Quite sure I called him "ridiculously talented", but okay.But let's not go pretending the guy is a fraud because he does something that all point guards who can shoot from three, and Marcus Smart, also do.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/james-harden-gets-fouled-on-3s-more-than-any-nba-team/He generally waits until his man puts a hand up to defend, then locks arms with him and jumps to begin a shot, making the defender appear guilty. Harden basically forces perimeter defenders to play with their hands down along the 3-point line.
This. Why the hell is Harden to be blamed for this? To make a mostly inapt analogy (but one that I think at least illustrates something we'd all admire) Marcus Smart has a tough, defensive reputation that may well have contributed to his drawing the 2 offensive fouls on Harden. Marcus Smart has cultivated that reputation and earned it, but there's no doubt that Marcus has been a big time flopper at times. Well, Harden has a reputation for drawing bullshit 3 point fouls by deliberately forcing a defender to foul him by baiting him with the up-fake/lean in crap. It's not all of what makes Harden great, but I'm at a loss to understand how the fact that he manages to get to the foul line on 3 pointers considerably more than anyone else in the NBA is a negative?I would say it is a pretty remakable skill to draw a foul that often on three point attempts. Amazing how some people knock him for it
No one is "blaming" him, whatever that means. At least, I'm not. He's clearly taking advantage of the way the game is called.This. Why the hell is Harden to be blamed for this?
It may well be, but how would we know besides your say-so?This is fake.
One random guy tweets that this happened and it is not reported anywhere else. Do you think it is more likely true or not?It may well be, but how would we know besides your say-so?
Cover upOne random guy tweets that this happened and it is not reported anywhere else. Do you think it is more likely true or not?
There is also this tweet from the same guy. Seems like he just makes shit up in hopes of clicksIt may well be, but how would we know besides your say-so?
Fair.There is also this tweet from the same guy. Seems like he just makes shit up in hopes of clicks
#NBA Celtics - Kelly Olynyk of the Miami Heat was very vocal getting on team airplane. “We out of this bum a** city! I bust they a** twice! Bums!”
Except that his playoff meltdown last season is still fresh in everybody's mind. He's a great player, but... Is there anybody else of his stature that has ever done that all-time poorly with things on the line?I think the "Harden is a great player but I don't like watching him" critique is a year or two out of date. He's been really entertaining for the past year at least, full stop.
Yup, I critiqued that meltdown heavily early on the thread. I was referring to people saying that while Harden's game was effective, it wasn't aesthetically appealing, which was a common trope for a couple years.Except that his playoff meltdown last season is still fresh in everybody's mind. He's a great player, but... Is there anybody else of his stature that has ever done that all-time poorly with things on the line?
Only cause I was curiousExcept that his playoff meltdown last season is still fresh in everybody's mind. He's a great player, but... Is there anybody else of his stature that has ever done that all-time poorly with things on the line?
Kobe Bryant - Game 7 2010 Finals - 6-24, 0-6 from 3, 23 points (15 free throws, Celtics attempted 17 as a team)Only cause I was curious
Dennis Johnson Game 7 1978 finals, 0-14, 4 points
Dirk Nowitzki Game 6 2007 playoffs, 2-13, 8 points
Karl Malone Game 6 1999 playoffs, 3-16, 8 points