That was then: Celebrating what was

Apr 7, 2006
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Yeah it might not be fair to him but finishing the job matters a lot to people. Edelman gets bonus points for coming up huge in the biggest games. Welker doesn't. It's that simple.
Totally get that, and don't even have an issue with Edelman's iconic moments and plays and championships giving him a perhaps outsize bump over Welker. WhatI don't get, and do take issue with, is the idea that that somehow equals Welker was only good or solid or whatever. Welker in that offense was one of the most dominant offensive players in the NFL for half a decade. His impact was massive.
 

Jimbodandy

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Totally get that, and don't even have an issue with Edelman's iconic moments and plays and championships giving him a perhaps outsize bump over Welker. WhatI don't get, and do take issue with, is the idea that that somehow equals Welker was only good or solid or whatever. Welker in that offense was one of the most dominant offensive players in the NFL for half a decade. His impact was massive.
Oh yeah. Total stud. His six years in New England were insanely productive. It also helped having peak Brady, but the numbers are the numbers.
 

BaseballJones

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Totally get that, and don't even have an issue with Edelman's iconic moments and plays and championships giving him a perhaps outsize bump over Welker. WhatI don't get, and do take issue with, is the idea that that somehow equals Welker was only good or solid or whatever. Welker in that offense was one of the most dominant offensive players in the NFL for half a decade. His impact was massive.
He was the perfect complement to Moss and really, he was tremendous, no matter who the other receivers were. He was great playing with Peyton Manning too.
 

The Social Chair

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Feb 17, 2010
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2010 Week 3 vs Buffalo was a pretty forgettable game, but it's a cool footnote because it's the only time Moss and Gronk had receiving TDs in the same game. Moss was gone 2 weeks later.


77720
 

Van Everyman

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Moving on from Moss was hard for me, even if it seemed like the right move at the time.

Maybe this is for that other weird quasi-negative Bill thread, but what do we think of Stallworth's 2007 season with the Pats? Given the contract he signed for, I guess 46 catches for 3 IDs and less than 700 yards is probably why Bill declined his option. But I do sometimes wonder what would've happened had he stayed longer in NE (tho I did appreciate him coming back for a single amazing TD catch on which he got hurt a bunch of years later).
 

The Social Chair

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Moving on from Moss was hard for me, even if it seemed like the right move at the time.
Same here.

Moss became a little bit of a headache in the locker room with the new contract requests, and it didn’t help that he had lost a step. I also felt like Brady would try to target Moss deep towards the end of his run instead of taking the easy check down.

Still a bummer because Welker, Gronk, (um) Hernandez, and a 4th option Moss is fun to think about.
 

johnmd20

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Same here.

Moss became a little bit of a headache in the locker room with the new contract requests, and it didn’t help that he had lost a step. I also felt like Brady would try to target Moss deep towards the end of his run instead of taking the easy check down.

Still a bummer because Welker, Gronk, (um) Hernandez, and a 4th option Moss is fun to think about.
NFL Network had Super Bowl recaps this weekend going in order. And they showed the Aaron Hernandez TD against the Giants in SB SLVII. And it was just very, very odd.
 

Euclis20

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Yeah it might not be fair to him but finishing the job matters a lot to people. Edelman gets bonus points for coming up huge in the biggest games. Welker doesn't. It's that simple.
Welker had 11 catches for 103 yards in SB 42, includes 3 catches on the Pats go-ahead drive with 2:45 left in the game. Edelman certainly came up big when it mattered, but Welker had some bad luck in this regard.
 

BaseballJones

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Same here.

Moss became a little bit of a headache in the locker room with the new contract requests, and it didn’t help that he had lost a step. I also felt like Brady would try to target Moss deep towards the end of his run instead of taking the easy check down.

Still a bummer because Welker, Gronk, (um) Hernandez, and a 4th option Moss is fun to think about.
Just from a pure talent perspective, there would never have been a greater collection of weapons (kinda pun intended) than that. All four guys were incredible, from a purely football skill perspective.
 

Van Everyman

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Just from a pure talent perspective, there would never have been a greater collection of weapons (kinda pun intended) than that. All four guys were incredible, from a purely football skill perspective.
Which makes that 2014-2018 run just that much more amazing – replacing three of the four weapons they had at that point to create a team that was equally, if not more, dominant offensively. Including multiple years that the one guy who didn’t leave—Gronk—was hurt (2016) or diminished (2018).
 

BaseballJones

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Which makes that 2014-2018 run just that much more amazing – replacing three of the four weapons they had at that point to create a team that was equally, if not more, dominant offensively. Including multiple years that the one guy who didn’t leave—Gronk—was hurt (2016) or diminished (2018).
Thinking about this a little more...I wonder what team has had, throughout its history, the best collection of skill position talent - this includes QB, WR, TE, and RB. Put together a 6-man skill position group from a team's entire franchise history.

Patriots
QB Tom Brady
RB Curtis Martin
WR Randy Moss
WR Wes Welker
TE Rob Gronkowski

And for the last position:
- If you want 3 WR: Julian Edelman, Stanley Morgan, Irving Fryar
- If you want 2 RB: Corey Dillon
- If you want 2 TE: Ben Coates, Russ Francis

Who would we go with?

And who's got the second best group? San Francisco?

San Fran
QB Joe Montana
RB Christian McCaffrey
WR Jerry Rice
WR Terrell Owens
TE George Kittle

- If you want 3 WR: John Taylor, Deebo Samuel
- If you want 2 RB: Ricky Watters, Roger Craig
- If you want 2 TE: Brent Jones, Vernon Davis

A Brady, Martin, Moss, Welker, Morgan, Gronk vs. Montana, McCaffrey, Rice, Owens, Kittle matchup would be sick.

Dallas
QB Roger Staubach
RB Emmitt Smith
WR Michael Irvin
WR Terrell Owens
TE Jay Novacek

- If you want 3 WR: Drew Pearson, Dez Bryant
- If you want 2 RB: Tony Dorsett, Ezekiel Elliott, Herschel Walker
- If you want 2 TE: Mike Ditka, Jason Witten
 

SemperFidelisSox

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Hall of Fame will be announced tomorrow night at the NFL Honors show. Fingers crossed this is the year Rodney finally gets in.

Vinatieri will be eligible next year.
 

Remagellan

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I love Tom, but thanks to PlutoTV's Super Bowl marathons I've watched the second half of Super Bowl LI three or four times over the past couple of weeks and James White should have been named the MVP of that game, or at the very least, co-MVP.
 

rodderick

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I love Tom, but thanks to PlutoTV's Super Bowl marathons I've watched the second half of Super Bowl LI three or four times over the past couple of weeks and James White should have been named the MVP of that game, or at the very least, co-MVP.
Funny, I had that thought at the time and then rewatching the game removed from the heat of the moment I thought it was kind of absurd for anyone other than Tom to merit consideration.
 

BaseballJones

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White's first catch was on 3rd and 1 - easy pitch and catch, but he turned a 5-yard gain into an 11-yard gain by breaking a tackle.

Second quarter, down 21-0, White caught a pass 7 yards downfield, immediately made a guy miss, and raced for a 28-yard gain.

Third quarter, down 21-3, on 2nd and 7 from the Patriot 27, White makes a catch 4 yards downfield, breaks a tackle, and turns it into a 12-yard gain.

His first touchdown didn't involve a broken tackle, but he stopped on a dime and made the defender miss, and then he dove into the end zone.

Fourth quarter, down 28-9, on first down from the Atl 41, he makes a really nice catch away from his body, low and away, with a guy all over him, breaks a tackle, and gets a first down.

Fourth quarter, down 28-12, first down on the Atl 21, he catches a ball 4 yards downfield and makes a great cut, making a Falcon totally whiff, and gets down to the 8 for a 13-yard gain.

Game-winning TD, he broke three tackles to score.

So yeah, I don't know - he didn't do anything *spectacular*, I guess, but he gained a lot of extra yards by breaking tackles and making people miss. And of course, in the end, had enormous production.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZquK9owjcA
 

Zedia

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Didn’t he score on the direct snap for one of the 2 pointers?

edit - oh right, that’s in the highlights. Yeah, he was awesome.
 

fiskful of dollars

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Yeah, and that snap was hard and a little bit off-line. He made a great play on the ball to catch that and not break stride, otherwise that play gets blown up. That was really a tough snap to handle as smoothly as he did.
 

BaseballJones

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Mahomes and Brady - Super Bowl games only

Mahomes (4)
vs SF (W): 26-42 (61.9%), 286 yds, 2 td, 2 int, 78.1 rating, 9 rushes, 29 yds, 1 td, 31 points scored
vs TB (L): 26-49 (53.1%), 270 yds, 0 td, 2 int, 52.3 rating, 5 rushes, 33 yds, 0 td, 1 fum, 9 points scored
vs Phi (W): 21-27 (77.8%), 182 yds, 3 td, 0 int, 131.8 rating, 6 rushes, 44 yds, 0 td, 38 points scored
vs SF (W): 34-46 (73.9%), 333 yds, 2 td, 1 int, 99.3 rating, 9 rushes, 66 yds, 0 td, 25 points scored

TOT (3-1): 107-164 (65.2%), 1,071 yds, 6.5 y/a, 7 td, 5 int, 85.2 rating, 29 rushes, 172 yds, 1 td, 1 fum, 103 points scored
AVG: 27-41, 268 yds, 1.8 td, 1.3 int, 85.2 rating, 7 rushes, 43 yds, 25.8 points scored

Brady (10)
vs StL (W): 16-27 (59.3%), 145 yds, 1 td, 0 int, 86.2 rating, 1 rush, 3 yds, 17 points scored
vs Car (W): 32-48 (66.7%), 354 yds, 3 td, 1 int, 100.5 rating, 2 rushes, 12 yds, 32 points scored
vs Phi (W): 23-33 (69.7%), 236 yds, 2 td, 0 int, 110.2 rating, 1 rush, -1 yds, 24 points scored
vs NYG (L): 29-48 (60.4%), 266 yds, 1 td, 0 int, 82.5 rating, 0 rush, 0 yds, 14 points scored
vs NYG (L): 27-41 (65.9%), 276 yds, 2 td, 1 int, 91.1 rating, 0 rush, 0 yds, 17 points scored
vs Sea (W): 37-50 (74.0%), 328 yds, 4 td, 2 int, 101.1 rating, 2 rush, -3 yds, 28 points scored
vs Atl (W): 43-62 (69.4%), 466 yds, 2 td, 1 int, 95.2 rating, 1 rush, 15 yds, 34 points scored
vs Phi (L): 28-48 (58.3%), 505 yds, 3 td, 0 int, 115.4 rating, 1 rush, 6 yds, 1 fum, 33 points scored
vs LAR (W): 21-35 (60.0%), 262 yds, 0 td, 1 int, 71.4 rating, 2 rush, -2 yds, 13 points scored
vs KC (W): 21-29 (72.4%), 201 yds, 3 td, 0 int, 125.8 rating, 4 rush, -2 yds, 31 points scored

TOT (7-3): 270-421 (64.1%), 3,039 yds, 7.2 y/a, 21 td, 6 int, 96.3 rating, 14 rush, 28 yds, 1 fum, 255 points scored
AVG: 27-42, 304 yds, 2.1 td, 0.6 int, 96.3 rating, 1 rush, 3 yds, 25.5 points scored

This next piece is subjective, but here's how I'd rank the quality of their performances, all things considered:

1. Brady vs Sea - 328 yds, 101.1 rating, huge fourth Q comeback against one of the best defenses of all time.
2. Brady vs Phi (L) - 505 yds, 3 td, 0 int, piling up yards and points like a pinball game; fell short but not because of him.
3. Brady vs Atl - 466 yds, 2 td, masterful comeback from 28-3 down when he had to be perfect.
4. Mahomes vs Phi - not a huge y/a average but he was surgical and they piled up the points.
5. Brady vs KC - Also not a huge y/a average but he was also surgical in a blowout win.
6. Brady vs Car - big passing numbers when they really needed it.
7. Mahomes vs SF (#2) - nothing in the first half but really came on late; huge OT drive to win it all.
8. Brady vs Phi (W) - just a professional performance in every way against a great team.
9. Brady vs Rams (#1) - not big numbers, but no turnovers and a huge game winning drive at the end.
10. Mahomes vs SF (#1) - yes they won, and yes he got the MVP, but he turned it over twice and needed some real luck to win that game.
11. Brady vs NYG (#1) - struggle all day long against a good but not great defense.
12. Brady vs Rams (#2) - had a bad INT early on; moved the ball but couldn't score until the end of the game.
13. Mahomes vs TB - got killed both on the scoreboard and on the stat sheet AND on the actual field. He was pounded all day long.
 

tims4wins

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I can't rate the Seattle one as #1. He threw 2 picks. Both of them were pretty bad, or at least one was. Bonus points for playing against that Seattle D though. I'm honestly not sure which Super Bowl I'd call Brady's best.
 

Van Everyman

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Yeah I don't know why it posted twice. But yes, worth watching all over again!
I just watched a video last night about Bill's beef with Mangini so that scowl the latter made after the first Moss TD was satisfying.

Edit: Also, those two TDs against Miami where Brady just threw the ball up into double coverage like 50 yards and Moss came down with them are probably my favorites. I mean, Christ, that just wasn't fair.
 
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BaseballJones

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I just watched a video last night about Bill's beef with Mangini so that scowl the latter made after the first Moss TD was satisfying.

Edit: Also, those two TDs against Miami where Brady just threw the ball up into double coverage like 50 yards and Moss came down with them are probably my favorites. I mean, Christ, that just wasn't fair.
Haha yeah the announcers were like, oh come ON.
 

jacklamabe65

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From the new Apple TV documentary on the Patriots: Bob Kraft - “Tom and I had a number of discussions about how Bill treated him. Tommy is very sensitive. He was always looking for Bill’s approval, almost in a father-son kind of way. And that’s not Bill’s style ever to give that.”
 

PC Drunken Friar

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From the new Apple TV documentary on the Patriots: Bob Kraft - “Tom and I had a number of discussions about how Bill treated him. Tommy is very sensitive. He was always looking for Bill’s approval, almost in a father-son kind of way. And that’s not Bill’s style ever to give that.”
But as part of a new 10-episode documentary on the Patriots dynasty, Brady makes clear his departure had more to do with who was coaching the team than the amount of money he was offered.

“Me and coach Belichick, we did what we loved and competed for 20 years together,” Brady said. “But I wasn’t going to sign another contract (in New England) even if I wanted to play until (I was) 50. Based on how things had gone, I wasn’t going to sign up for more of it.”
Players, including several still on the roster, disclose just how difficult it was playing for Belichick. “It was brutal,” Matthew Slater said. Rob Gronkowski described pulling up to 1 Patriot Place and not wanting to get out of his car to go into work. Wes Welker compared Brady to an abused dog for continually going back to work for Belichick.
Sounds like this series will go in sequential order, so the "juicy" stuff won't be until the end. Apple TV is premiering them 2 at a time, every Friday night.
 

Mystic Merlin

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Apparently half the episodes are focused on the end of the BB/Brady/Kraft run, so it should probably be called ‘The End of The Dynasty.’

Wait, Murdoch and Goodell appear? Will have to have my finger hovering over the fast forward button, I guess.
 

Hoya81

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A pretty consistent theme from a lot of former players is that BB’s holding Brady just as accountable for errors/mistakes as practice squad players was instrumental in getting them to buy into BB’s approach. But I’m also not surprised that at some point that Brady wanted something different.
 

BigSoxFan

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Driving away Gronk the year before was pretty terrible too. Oh well, what’s done is done, and I’m questioning whether I even really want to watch this.
Makes me happier they made a move. The coaching won’t be as good but the team may be more enjoyable to watch. We can hope, at least.
 

BaseballJones

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It may not have been fun at times, but they won more than anyone else in the history of the sport. Which, as I understand it, was/is the goal. Other teams win big for short periods of time but it’s possible that BB’s style was the only way to hold the whole thing together as long as it lasted. Of course there’s a price to pay for all that success. It’s not easy, and quite often not enjoyable.
 

BigSoxFan

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It may not have been fun at times, but they won more than anyone else in the history of the sport. Which, as I understand it, was/is the goal. Other teams win big for short periods of time but it’s possible that BB’s style was the only way to hold the whole thing together as long as it lasted. Of course there’s a price to pay for all that success. It’s not easy, and quite often not enjoyable.
It’s also possible that Tom Brady was the glue holding it all together and not BB’s rigid style. Brady himself demanded a ton from teammates.
 

Silverdude2167

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It may not have been fun at times, but they won more than anyone else in the history of the sport. Which, as I understand it, was/is the goal. Other teams win big for short periods of time but it’s possible that BB’s style was the only way to hold the whole thing together as long as it lasted. Of course there’s a price to pay for all that success. It’s not easy, and quite often not enjoyable.
No, he was mean and people paid millions of dollars to play a children's game did not like that.

Also, 2019 Brady wasn't great and 2020 Brady on that roster would have been worse. He was still great with high-level talent which we saw with TB.
 

LogansDad

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It may not have been fun at times, but they won more than anyone else in the history of the sport. Which, as I understand it, was/is the goal. Other teams win big for short periods of time but it’s possible that BB’s style was the only way to hold the whole thing together as long as it lasted. Of course there’s a price to pay for all that success. It’s not easy, and quite often not enjoyable.
It also makes sense that once the record breaking winning stopped, the whole thing quickly went downhill.
 

Mystic Merlin

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It’s also possible that Tom Brady was the glue holding it all together and not BB’s rigid style. Brady himself demanded a ton from teammates.
I think the team leaders conveying and exemplifying the BB philosophy in their own ways was instrumental - the coach alone isn’t gonna get it done, so the coach finding those messengers is just as important as the message itself. Brady, Vrabel, Harrison, McGinest, Hightower, Slater, Edelman, McCourty, Wilfork, Bruschi, Nink, and so on.