Stink out Loud for Stroud (?)

88 MVP

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Maybe this thread is premature, but the injury to Mac looked bad, and even if he can come back this season, this team isn’t good enough to make a run to the playoffs playing Hoyer or Zappe. So.

55833

If Mac is out for the year or a significant length of time, I think the Pats are basically in competition with Atlanta and Washington to finish dead last in the league.

I’m not sure that BB has it in him to tank, but the best interest of the franchise might be to throw Zappe out there for as long as Mac is out - find out if you have anything with him, and if not, bottom out to restock the roster with premium talent.

Discuss all things tanking and selecting a starting QB during Mac’s absence
 

jsinger121

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Totally agree that bottoming out has to happen now if Mac is done for the year. There is no point in playing to get to 7-10 or 8-9. That would set this franchise back a few more years.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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I doubt they will throw Zappe to the wolves if they don’t think he’s even close to ready (and let’s face it he’s probably not). Is Kraft willing to tank like that, and will there be pressure on Belichick to deliver a somewhat competitive team? I expect Hoyer starts at least the next 4-5 games.
 

OurF'ingCity

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I doubt they will throw Zappe to the wolves if they don’t think he’s even close to ready (and let’s face it he’s probably not). Is Kraft willing to tank like that, and will there be pressure on Belichick to deliver a somewhat competitive team? I expect Hoyer starts at least the next 4-5 games.
A team starting 36-year-old Brian Hoyer is not a "somewhat competitive team."
 

Caspir

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Yea, I said in the Mac thread, but they might win one more game all year with Zappe or Hoyer. There’s 0 benefit in letting Hoyer take the field, so see if Zappe can catch lightning in a bottle with the assumption that we should be reading up on Will Anderson and CJ Stroud.
 

BaseballJones

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They wouldn't play Stidham even when their season was effectively over in 2020.

They're not going to play Zappe either if BB thinks he has no shot.
 

rodderick

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I think this defense is good enough to hold some teams to under 14 points so they could get a handful more wins with Hoyer. The middle of that schedule is really soft. Zappe doesn't look close to ready, though.

Belichick seems like the most anti-tanking HC in the league, though, I think he'll fight for every single win they can possibly get. Dude isn't waiting around till 75 to catch Shula either.
 

OurF'ingCity

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Don’t disagree but I expect Belichick will do what gives the team the best chance of winning, at least for the next few weeks, in part because the owner is going to demand it.
I actually think that Kraft would be more okay with a year of tanking than BB would.

All that said, yes, if BB doesn't think Zappe is ready he won't play him.
 

Arroyoyo

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I think this defense is good enough to hold some teams to under 14 points so they could get a handful more wins with Hoyer. The middle of that schedule is really soft. Zappe doesn't look close to ready, though.

Belichick seems like the most anti-tanking HC in the league, though, I think he'll fight for every single win they can possibly get. Dude isn't waiting around till 75 to catch Shula either.
This does bring up a serious question though.

With BB seemingly wanting to chase Shula, could the Patriots still get decent compensation for BB assuming Mac is out and this rebuild just got put on ice for another 2-3 years?
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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I actually think that Kraft would be more okay with a year of tanking than BB would.

All that said, yes, if BB doesn't think Zappe is ready he won't play him.
Kraft is 81, I wonder how patient he is; especially with Brady still thriving. A three or four win season may have him skeptical of the plan going forward, I would think. Of course, a five or six win season probably won’t be much better.
 

Seels

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Hoyer is so god awful I'm not sure I can watch more than a few quarters of him. I love football but that KC game last year was one of the most painful experiences I've had to endure.

If Mac is done for the year, you might as well trade off assets. Get whatever you can for guys like Agholor, Bourne, Harris, and see what you can do with some of the young talent.
 

Ralphwiggum

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Last year during an interview someone asked Kraft about BB’s unconventional style (may have been a question about the draft, or playcalling/game plan decisions, can’t remember) and Kraft basically said like most fans he doesn’t always understand or agree with everything BB does, but he’s a results guy and you can’t argue with the results. BB obviously gets a longer leash than pretty much any coach ever in NFL history, but it’ll be interesting to see what happens if the results aren’t there anymore.

Tom Landry missed the playoffs for the first time in a decade in 1984, came back and went 10-6 in ‘85 and made the playoffs, then went 7-9, 7-8, 3-13 and was done. Guys can’t coach forever, and the end is likely to come quickly, even for a guy like BB. I don’t think he’s done yet but I can’t see him having another 5 good years at his age, regardless of the talent on the roster.
 

Rico Guapo

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If Mac is out for the year I think you try to trade Judon for a 3rd/4th but realistically speaking the team doesn't have anything another team would give up a high draft pick for relative to the talent/contracts.
 

BaseballJones

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I wonder what the Pats could get by trading Harris to the Vikings, who lost Cook today due to a shoulder injury. I really like Harris and think he's talented and brings real toughness to the Pats. But I also think they might be able to get a good draft pick for him, and then elevate Kevin Harris from the PS. Rhamondre could be the main guy with K Harris spelling him and Strong getting some carries too.

I wouldn't do this if the goal is to still try to compete for the playoffs this year, but if Mac is done for the year or a long period of time, and if they kinda sorta turn their attention to 2023, then this is the kind of move I'd like them to consider.
 

johnmd20

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I wonder what the Pats could get by trading Harris to the Vikings, who lost Cook today due to a shoulder injury. I really like Harris and think he's talented and brings real toughness to the Pats. But I also think they might be able to get a good draft pick for him, and then elevate Kevin Harris from the PS. Rhamondre could be the main guy with K Harris spelling him and Strong getting some carries too.

I wouldn't do this if the goal is to still try to compete for the playoffs this year, but if Mac is done for the year or a long period of time, and if they kinda sorta turn their attention to 2023, then this is the kind of move I'd like them to consider.
Minnesota has Mattison. They would maybe give a 28th round pick for Harris.
 

snowmanny

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Even though the Mac end zone interception today was incredibly stupid, the Hoyer sack against KC has it beat by a mile on the inexcusable scale. Playing Hoyer is tanking. Playing either of those guys is tanking.
 
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Kraft is 81, I wonder how patient he is; especially with Brady still thriving. A three or four win season may have him skeptical of the plan going forward, I would think. Of course, a five or six win season probably won’t be much better.
If I’m Kraft and I didn’t land the airplane with Brady, then I’m giving BB whatever he needs to go out on his terms.
 

snowmanny

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Even though the Mac end zone interception today was incredibly stupid, the Hoyer sack against KC has it beat by a mile on the inexcusable scale. Playing Hoyer is tanking. Playing either of those guys is tanking.
Of course, I suppose someone might point out that even great quarterbacks do inexcusably dumb things.
 

Salem's Lot

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PRabbit

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Tank for the most draft capital possible, and then aggressively seek trade down options in the draft. This roster needs help everywhere, and I'm bullish on Mac long term.

Keep the youth that's shown promise (Meyers, Dugger, Barmore, Strange, Stevenson and whoever else) and trade for picks.
 

Arroyoyo

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Here’s my only issue with that: let’s say you trade Agholor. Or Smith. Or even Judon.

What do you expect for these guys in terms of draft capital? 4th for Judon? Maybe a 6/7 for the other two if you catch a playoff team desperate for a #3 WR or #2 TE?

With the quality of our late draft picks the last decade, do you draft guys that 1) even make the roster in those rounds (and actually play on game day), and 2) provide better value than the players you trade even if you do trade them?

That’s a long way of saying: the roster is mediocre. It’s not TERRIBLE, it’s just average and it needs a few impact players (I’d argue WR, CB, and TE). So why trade all of the “supporting” pieces to gamble on other “supporting” pieces instead of just using the cap space next season much more wisely than we did last season? Get a few studs - not “sleeper FA’s!” (like Jonnu) at positions of need and inject them into the rest of the very-average but decent roster?
 

Phil Plantier

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I don't understand this thread. This is Week 3. You want to tank. For some guy who is probably worse than Mac Jones. Did you want to trade Jaylen Brown in November last year too?

If only the team had started 1-2 before and won the Super Bowl. If only we had some examples of a backup quarterback leading his team to the Super Bowl. If only Belichick were involved with 2 of those.

How about we wait for, I don't know, the trade deadline before declaring the season lost.

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Agree. The hot takez in this thread - the “maybe this is premature” understatement of all understatements in the original post alone - is beneath what SOSH has always seemed to be. I could be wrong, but isn’t this the place where we come to feel the tiniest bit smug that we don’t post reactive, emotional stuff like this? No one is arguing yesterday, or the first three games, are signs of ALL THE GOOD TO COME, but what I‘m reading here seems super kneejerky, and not in line with what SOSH has been about for many years.
 

AlNipper49

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Here’s my only issue with that: let’s say you trade Agholor. Or Smith. Or even Judon.

What do you expect for these guys in terms of draft capital? 4th for Judon? Maybe a 6/7 for the other two if you catch a playoff team desperate for a #3 WR or #2 TE?

With the quality of our late draft picks the last decade, do you draft guys that 1) even make the roster in those rounds (and actually play on game day), and 2) provide better value than the players you trade even if you do trade them?

That’s a long way of saying: the roster is mediocre. It’s not TERRIBLE, it’s just average and it needs a few impact players (I’d argue WR, CB, and TE). So why trade all of the “supporting” pieces to gamble on other “supporting” pieces instead of just using the cap space next season much more wisely than we did last season? Get a few studs - not “sleeper FA’s!” (like Jonnu) at positions of need and inject them into the rest of the very-average but decent roster?
I’d agree with this. My only disclaimer is that given the Pats are presumed less likely to win the Super Bowl now than a few weeks ago then if you find a trade that opens up future finicial flexibility then you take it. Draft capital would be icing on the cake
 

88 MVP

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I’m not sure that I understand the backlash posts. Prior to the season, the overwhelming consensus on the board seemed to be that the Pats were destined to finish under their Vegas O/U (and for the record, I was more optimistic than most and thought they might win 10 or 11 games with growth from Mac)

But the rest of this roster is not talented enough to make a playoff run with Brian Hoyer at the controls for any length of time. So if you accept the fact that this is a lost season, it’s not unreasonable to start thinking about draft position and trading assets that might not be useful when the team is ready to compete.
 

ragnarok725

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Agree. The hot takez in this thread - the “maybe this is premature” understatement of all understatements in the original post alone - is beneath what SOSH has always seemed to be. I could be wrong, but isn’t this the place where we come to feel the tiniest bit smug that we don’t post reactive, emotional stuff like this? No one is arguing yesterday, or the first three games, are signs of ALL THE GOOD TO COME, but what I‘m reading here seems super kneejerky, and not in line with what SOSH has been about for many years.
I think you are wrong.

The premise here from the start of the thread is "if Mac Jones is out for the year." I don't see any problem talking tanking if Mac is out for the year. This is a team that, even with their QB was the third best team in their division. And their backup options have to be some of the very worst in the league.

What would you say to a Bears board if Fields was out for the year? What do you say to a Jaguars board with Lawrence out for the year? You say get ready to tank.

If Mac is out just a few weeks then sure you try to hold out, pick up a few wins. But there is no path to the playoffs let alone contention without Mac. At that point I'd rather tank and dream on the picks.
 

BigSoxFan

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I don't understand this thread. This is Week 3. You want to tank. For some guy who is probably worse than Mac Jones. Did you want to trade Jaylen Brown in November last year too?

If only the team had started 1-2 before and won the Super Bowl. If only we had some examples of a backup quarterback leading his team to the Super Bowl. If only Belichick were involved with 2 of those.

How about we wait for, I don't know, the trade deadline before declaring the season lost.

View attachment 55842
There is no path to relevance with Brian Hoyer/Zappe as your QB. If Mac is out 6-8 weeks, the season is effectively over. Not sure why this position is so controversial. These Patriots WITH Mac weren’t any good. They will suck out loud without him. Nothing wrong with taking the long view. There’s also nothing wrong with not throwing in the towel. We know the coaching staff won’t. But it won’t likely matter if Mac is out an extended period of time.
 

j44thor

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I'm pretty sure in CHI keeping Fields in is the right move to tank, they just don't throw enough to put the full tank on.

Be curious to see if this team goes back to the Newton "era" run and play defense style. Hoyer is going to make Mac look like Josh Allen with his pop gun arm.

Unfortunately I don't think this D is capable of winning too many 20-17 type games.
 

Toe Nash

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I'm fine with tanking because this team is not going to go deep into the playoffs but that's not what Belichick will ever do so it's moot. If he didn't tank in the Cam Newton year he's not going to tank now.

Also there is a difference between "not putting a competitive team on the field so you can get a higher draft pick" and "churning through a ton of guys on the roster to see who can play," and BB kind of always does the latter and turns the team over every few years outside of a few core guys. The question IMHO is whether he can still identify those guys and build a team that can compete in the modern NFL. I wouldn't bet against it but the acquisitions and roster turnover since 2018 or so have been underwhelming -- a few gems on the secondary and offensive line but not enough throughout the roster.
 

Leather

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Agree. The hot takez in this thread - the “maybe this is premature” understatement of all understatements in the original post alone - is beneath what SOSH has always seemed to be. I could be wrong, but isn’t this the place where we come to feel the tiniest bit smug that we don’t post reactive, emotional stuff like this? No one is arguing yesterday, or the first three games, are signs of ALL THE GOOD TO COME, but what I‘m reading here seems super kneejerky, and not in line with what SOSH has been about for many years.
What's more likely (assuming Mac is out for most of the season): The Pats finish with 3-5 wins? Or they have a top-8 league QB waiting in the wings like in 2001 that can lead them to the playoffs?

Simply stating that the former is the most likely scenario is not a "hot take."
 

8slim

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The Pats are not going to "tank" under BB.

Never.

Ever.

Now, would BB trade guys if it nets him future picks/cap flexibility? Of course, because he's been doing that for 22 years, and as recently as last week.

They're also 100% going to start Hoyer if Mac can't play.
 

Phil Plantier

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There is no path to relevance with Brian Hoyer/Zappe as your QB.
Next 6 games:
at Packers
vs Lions
at Browns
vs Bears
at Jets
vs Colts

and then the Bye. I think Pats can go 4-2 without Mac in those games. Should the Pats tank rather than be in the playoff race?

The Patriots won a game with injured rookie Jacoby Brissett at QB.
 

BaseballJones

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Next 6 games:
at Packers
vs Lions
at Browns
vs Bears
at Jets
vs Colts

and then the Bye. I think Pats can go 4-2 without Mac in those games. Should the Pats tank rather than be in the playoff race?

The Patriots won a game with injured rookie Jacoby Brissett at QB.
I actually agree that even with Hoyer, the Patriots are capable of winning 4 of those 6 games. Not that they WILL, but that they COULD. If Hoyer could minimize turnovers, they run the ball well, and play good defense against what are some pretty limited offensive teams, they could win 4 of those games.
 

astrozombie

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Mac made some crummy decisions that game (so many throws into coverage), but I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and another year or two. Mistakes happen. But this team is screamingly mediocre around him. Sadly the NFL, or any sports league really, does not reward mediocrity. Keep Mac, tank this season, try to draft someone he can throw the ball to consistently and get an OC who can work with Mac and do things like have him throw to a TE more than twice a game.
The issue here, as it has been for years now, is that GM Belichick is failing coach Belichick. BB gets a lot of joy out of finding hidden gems and having undrafted guys make the roster. But by the same token, he has been doing a horrible job with his high draft picks. Bill can turn a nickel into a dime, which is great! Double the return! But give him $2 and he seems to consistently turn that into a quarter.
I doubt BB is going to tank this season - Kraft does not want to lose and BB doesn't have it in him, plus he's too concerned with chasing Shula. Bill is fine with a couple mediocre seasons to get that record, rather than take a crummy season and try building up to a winner. I have a feeling we are going to be seeing a variant of this team for the next few seasons until BB gets the record, retires, Mac moves on and the Patriots start everything from scratch.
 

BigSoxFan

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Next 6 games:
at Packers
vs Lions
at Browns
vs Bears
at Jets
vs Colts

and then the Bye. I think Pats can go 4-2 without Mac in those games. Should the Pats tank rather than be in the playoff race?

The Patriots won a game with injured rookie Jacoby Brissett at QB.
Next week is an auto L. You think they’re capable of winning the next 4 of 5 with Hoyer? No chance. Some of those teams aren’t as bad as you may think.
 

Ale Xander

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Next 6 games:
at Packers
vs Lions
at Browns
vs Bears
at Jets
vs Colts

and then the Bye. I think Pats can go 4-2 without Mac in those games. Should the Pats tank rather than be in the playoff race?

The Patriots won a game with injured rookie Jacoby Brissett at QB.
They're not winning any of those next 3 games with Hoyer at QB

The Brissett team was way more loaded at the rest of the roster.

Chubb may run for 250
 

rodderick

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Sometimes I think a portion of this board is still stuck in a 2019 "Bill could get Brian Hoyer into the AFCCG" Mike Felger argument. Hoyer would be the worst starting quarterback in all of football, if Belichick can take what is "meh" overall talent and remain competitive with that kind of QB play, he should have never spent the 15th overall pick on Mac Jones, because I'm prety sure 4-2 over that stretch would be a pretty rosy scenario even if he were playing.
 

Ralphwiggum

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The Pats are not going to "tank" under BB.

Never.

Ever.

Now, would BB trade guys if it nets him future picks/cap flexibility? Of course, because he's been doing that for 22 years, and as recently as last week.

They're also 100% going to start Hoyer if Mac can't play.
Was just going to post something similar. The thread is a purely hypothetical exercise in what posters want to see happen, given the circumstances. If Mac is out for an extended period of time, it is a fair question as to what is in the best long term interest of the team. In a vacuum, if we are getting multiple games of Hoyer it is hard to see how finishing with 6-7 wins is better long-term than finishing with 2-3.

That said, they are never going to tank and I'm perfectly OK with that. I think building a winning culture is super-hard, and IMO cannot be accomplished if the coaching staff lets on even a little that they are OK with not winning. Plus we know how BB is wired anyway. There will be no tanking, and they'll win a few games they probably should lose even with this roster and Hoyer at QB because they will play hard and try to win every game.
 

4 6 3 DP

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The guy who started in KC two years ago made so many bad decisions in that game I'm not sure how he could lead a team to much of anything.

If they want to compete and Mac is out, they would have two options in my mind.

1. (preferred) - go get Ryan Fitzpatrick out of the Amazon booth.
2. Make a trade for a guy like Minshew or Heinecke, hoping one of those teams would do it for something late round like a 5th.
 

BigSoxFan

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Sometimes I think a portion of this board is still stuck in a 2019 "Bill could get Brian Hoyer into the AFCCG" Mike Felger argument. Hoyer would be the worst starting quarterback in all of football, if Belichick can take what is "meh" overall talent and remain competitive with that kind of QB play, he should have never spent the 15th overall pick on Mac Jones, because I'm prety sure 4-2 over that stretch would be a pretty rosy scenario even if he were playing.
I would love nothing more than to have my response by mocked mercilessly for weeks. But, I just don’t see it. 4-2 would have been a great outcome with Mac. I don’t see how they do it without. Hoyer might literally be the worst QB in the NFL. Defense would really have to step it up and we’d probably have to have some fortunate turnover luck.
 

8slim

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I would love nothing more than to have my response by mocked mercilessly for weeks. But, I just don’t see it. 4-2 would have been a great outcome with Mac. I don’t see how they do it without. Hoyer might literally be the worst QB in the NFL. Defense would really have to step it up and we’d probably have to have some fortunate turnover luck.
I've spent the past few months complaining to my son that Hoyer is on the roster. Bill clearly values his experience, which is why he should have made him the QB coach and found an actual backup who isn't a terrible football player. Hoyer's going to start and he's going to be very bad.
 

Mooch

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Next 6 games:
at Packers
vs Lions
at Browns
vs Bears
at Jets
vs Colts

and then the Bye. I think Pats can go 4-2 without Mac in those games. Should the Pats tank rather than be in the playoff race?

The Patriots won a game with injured rookie Jacoby Brissett at QB.
Really? Without Mac, I see MAYBE two wins in that stretch.