Round 2: Celtics vs. Bucks
- Thread starter DJnVa
- Start date
So despite all the handwringing about FTs, the C's went to the line only four fewer times than the Bucks in game three. Both teams shot the three at a decent clip (40% for Boston on 40 shots, 40.5% for the Bucks on 37).
The main difference was the points in the paint where Milwaukee shot 50.6% on 83 shots to the C's 43.2% on 81 shots. From where I sit, its fairly simple - the Bucks clamped down on Celtics offensive players on any dribble penetration and focused on trapping Kyrie on ISOs in particular. Meanwhile Boston missed several rotations and help on defense (George Hill should never get a free run to the basket and never more than once a game). This was the game where Boston missed Smart terribly.
That said, this is fixable even if he isn't ready to return. First, hometown hero turned enemy Pat Connaughton isn't likely to repeat his 44.4% line from deep anytime soon (33.3% for the season from three) and George Hill isn't likely to have more than one turn back the clock game a series. The C's need to continue to wall off Giannis and have someone stick with Middleton. If the Bucks counter with Lopez or Mirotic on offense, I have no doubt the C's will target them and welcome that development.
On offense, they need to move the ball more. Kyrie is crafty as hell but not enough to get through traps by guys who are tall enough to wall him off and cut off passing lanes. No more dribbling down low and getting stuck in a corner for any Celtic - they have and can beat the Bucks by moving the ball around.
We are back to where we are at the start of the series but I generally agree with Devezier that Monday is as close to a must-win as they've faced all season. And I have confidence that they will put forth a better effort than today.
The main difference was the points in the paint where Milwaukee shot 50.6% on 83 shots to the C's 43.2% on 81 shots. From where I sit, its fairly simple - the Bucks clamped down on Celtics offensive players on any dribble penetration and focused on trapping Kyrie on ISOs in particular. Meanwhile Boston missed several rotations and help on defense (George Hill should never get a free run to the basket and never more than once a game). This was the game where Boston missed Smart terribly.
That said, this is fixable even if he isn't ready to return. First, hometown hero turned enemy Pat Connaughton isn't likely to repeat his 44.4% line from deep anytime soon (33.3% for the season from three) and George Hill isn't likely to have more than one turn back the clock game a series. The C's need to continue to wall off Giannis and have someone stick with Middleton. If the Bucks counter with Lopez or Mirotic on offense, I have no doubt the C's will target them and welcome that development.
On offense, they need to move the ball more. Kyrie is crafty as hell but not enough to get through traps by guys who are tall enough to wall him off and cut off passing lanes. No more dribbling down low and getting stuck in a corner for any Celtic - they have and can beat the Bucks by moving the ball around.
We are back to where we are at the start of the series but I generally agree with Devezier that Monday is as close to a must-win as they've faced all season. And I have confidence that they will put forth a better effort than today.
I'm not going to argue, but I will only say that it matters when the calls happen. A FTA or call that sends a player to a bench in a close game isn't the same value as one when you're down 18 with three minutes left.
I didn’t visit Game Thread at all......are you seriously telling me there were people blaming the officials about foul calls? Lol like which calls?
They shot at least 50% of their free throws in the fourth quarter. Most coming after the game was over. They had to play most of the fourth without their best player on the bench after the other team's head coach called a foul on him.
All in all the MIL defense won them the game, but they absolutely stayed in the game and eventually took control of the game because they got to the line relentlessly through three quarters of the game.
All in all the MIL defense won them the game, but they absolutely stayed in the game and eventually took control of the game because they got to the line relentlessly through three quarters of the game.
Yes. We don't need to re-litigate it here as its not productive.
There were even folks claiming the officiating was deliberately skewed towards Milwaukee by the league (I get that Giannis is an MVP candidate and a superstar but if you think the NBA would prefer a Wisconsin team versus a Northeast team to face Golden State, I would love to understand why - the tv market differential alone suggests that the NBA would prefer it the other way if you believe the fix is in).
In any event, the Bucks got the calls because they are better at getting to the line than Boston and adjusted to the officiating faster than the Celtics did. The reason the C's got all the calls late is because they stopped with the dribble penetration and started trying to take the ball to the rim. Unfortunately, they aren't really built for that whereas Giannis is.
The reason Boston fell down by a lot by the way had little to do with foul calls. Their offense was bad and their defense was worse. Conspiracy theories are fun but sometimes its best to shave with Occam's razor (I stole that from Kirk Goldsberry).
This pretty much sums it up but yeah I peaked in the game thread starting from the end of the game. It’s crazy that Jaylen can commit two fouls on one play yet the fan base goes berserk because the second one is called. I mean the official was trying all he could to spare Jaylens hand check but when you follow that up with an easy block call you can’t expect everything. Some do however.
Do you really think that Kyrie doesn't get handchecked constantly throughout the game though? That gets swallowed 99.9% of the time, especially when a guy has 4 already (I think he was at 4 by then?). That was an incredibly weak call and you can't even argue it was at the rim.
This is a wild take. Hand check, ok Hubie. There was plenty of other complaining to complain about without picking the foul that was called by the coach.
The officials were fine, the Celtics committed a lot of fouls on drives because Giannis beat them to the rim a lot. The problem was that the defense struggled to keep Giannis in front of them and the offense collapsed into a mess of terrible movement and worse shot selection.
Sorry, it’s soft. That’s happening all game. Are two handed moving screens legal? Lopez set one so obvious even Hubie called it out in real time.
I hope the Ainge family tells Danny the DVR stopped recording at halftime. The Celtics can't give up 40 third quarter points at home. The Bucks missed only five shots that quarter, and the got offensive rebounds on two of the misses. Once GA starts playing downhill, the Celtics need to stand up to him and recover on shooter when they make him pass the ball. Their defensive effort in the third was not playoff intensity.
The Celtics bench got outscored by 24 points. Rozier was horrible. Baynes/Theis were non-existent.
I'm going to Game 4 Monday nights and hope the Cs don't put in another dogshit performance. Kyrie needs to be the superstar he's purported to be if the Celtics are going to win this series. Hopefully, they will turn it around Monday night, and them Smart can come back and jump into a tied series and energize them in Milwaukee like he did last season.
The Celtics bench got outscored by 24 points. Rozier was horrible. Baynes/Theis were non-existent.
I'm going to Game 4 Monday nights and hope the Cs don't put in another dogshit performance. Kyrie needs to be the superstar he's purported to be if the Celtics are going to win this series. Hopefully, they will turn it around Monday night, and them Smart can come back and jump into a tied series and energize them in Milwaukee like he did last season.
Lol yikes.
I question if you’ve ever actually watched basketball 99.9% of the time after reading your posts.
Go away.
Why people want to believe that there is some grand officiating conspiracy in lieu of your take is crazy, especially since the data supports the Cs bad defense and terrible offensive execution.
There are bad calls in literally every NBA game and imho they tend to even out. But somehow every single team's fanbase thinks the other team is being favored.
I mean, there actually was a grand officiating conspiracy that resulted in a ref doing jail time, ha. Instead of cleaning house and starting from scratch, they pretended like it never happened and here we are today - Houston/GSW both crying about a fix, Utah players publicly jumping in, and Celtics fans following along. It's not like it's just the fans anymore.
I think if you were to take the amount of complaining about the foul calls tonight, and cut it by a factor of 3-4, that's the kernel of truth underneath that. The Giannis taking-a-charge from Semi where Giannis was standing on the restricted-area line, the phantom Jaylen trip call, the Tatum-on-Giannis call in the 4th, and of course that Jaylen call above... there were a few calls that felt like BS to me. Just not nearly enough to swing the game.
And of course, as DeJesus said, any rational fan can realize that at worst we're looking at incompetence, not malice. Plus it evens out, even if our emotions make us think otherwise. Hanlon's Razor really applies double here.
Giannis is one of the hardest players to officiate (nevermind defend) in the league, possibly second only to Harden. It looks like he travels on every paint drive, except that each step of his covers like 30 feet. Al, and even Semi can get the better of him cleanly on occasion but for the most part it needed to be a team effort and tonight whoever was on Giannis got little-to-no help. I think that was pretty much the game. That, and another second half period of offensive ineptness, though not nearly as bad as Tuesday.
It wasn't about the reffing, the C's got their ass kicked fair and square, but the Celts were by my count 16-for-16 at the line in the last half of the 4th qtr. And its not like we haven't seen refs whistle make-up calls before. Its the NBA.
I agree with this. As I stated in the 2nd season thread, Fosters continue employment in the league is mystifying.
That said, lets assume that the league wanted the Bucks to win - what do people think the rationale is?
This is absolutely ridiculous. The Bucks were allowed to hand check all game.. Kyrie was mugged multiple times going to the basket. It's so freakin ridiculous how fans of a team bend over backwards to justify really bad officiating. The level of contact allowed for three quarters on one side versus the other is noticeable. This idea that the Bucks adjusted and the Celtics didn't? So why were the Bucks called for SOOOOO many fouls in the fourth quarter when the game was out of reach? Did they adjust back? It's noticeable enough that Kyrie actually talked about it after the game.. Giannis had more free throws than the Celtics for most of the game.. and I know that he's a star and he goes to the lane alot but it's absolutely impossible to guard him because of the length of his step, his speed and ability, BUT also because he's allowed to create a ton of contact and the defender is called for almost any contact back... that and he's never called for traveling or three seconds... He's an amazing player, but you can't touch him without getting a call. The amount of contact that Kyrie takes without getting calls.. is that because he doesn't know how to draw contact? doesn't know how to get calls? I'm super frustrated and I def have green colored glasses, but I know what you're describing absolutely didn't happen.
I agree that a grand conspiracy is EXTREMELY unlikely, but simple incompetence isn't out of the question either.
Two hands were allowed all game... Lopez as prime no. 1 example... it didn't seem to be called on either end, but the hand checking all game was noticeable.
It wasn't called the other way multiple times... fans are asking for even handed officiating... it didn't happen tonite.
Yup. But HRB is gonna HRB. Has to be contrarian on basically everything. It’s just what he does even when he’s been proven wrong.
I don’t understand this at all. Giannis clearly CLEARLY had he feet outside the restricted area with his heels off the line. We even saw two slow motion angles where neither foot was on the line. Jaylen extended his foot and the Bucks player stepped on it and fell.....that is the very definition of a tripping foul. The Tatum foul where slo-motion replay again showed him reaching down stripping Giannis across the arm was also indisputable with replay. I didn’t have volume on......what were the announcers saying on these plays?
Nothing contrarian about it. I thought this was as evenly officiated game as GS-Hou the other night with only a couple of minor exceptions. Reading some of these posts, especially the one above I just quoted is bizarre.
I understand your frustration - I am not happy about the game either.
The Bucks were 15th in FTA for the season, mostly because of Giannis and their style of play. The C's were 29th. I agree that Giannis gets away with a lot but that is how the NBA has always been - guys who are athletic freaks in a sea of athletes tend to get away with more and if they are savvy/crafty (James Harden says hello) they can even goose that.
That said, you said what I described didn't happen. So we are clear, you are saying the C's didn't adjust their style of play in the fourth to start taking the ball inside after running ISOs with Kyrie and others? If what I am describing didn't happen, what did? The refs felt bad about kicking the game to the Bucks and tried to even out the foul calls?
I absolutely could be wrong and its possible that the refs either were clearly incompetent or, worse yet, in the bag for the Bucks so I would am interested in what actually did happen.
It was even because they didn’t call the hand check against Jaylen either.....they called the block with his body that knocked Bledsoe off balance on his first step.
I mean, it was relatively predicable to even analytical guys like dangercart that the calls were about to get evened up once the game was out of reach
dangercart is a C's homer. This isn't analytical. I am not going to convince anyone who thinks the refs skewed this game in the Bucks favor so I am out.I mean, it was relatively predicable to even analytical guys like dangercart that the calls were about to get evened up once the game was out of reach
I will simply say that the narrative that the refs incompetence or corruption cost the Cs the game lets the team off the hook for horrible execution.
That's fair, I don't think there's any right answer really. Hopefully we both play better and get some home cooking on Monday.
I saw Celtics going to the hole all game.. fouls weren’t called til the 4th. Hand checking was rampant. The bucks were allowed to play an entirely different amount of physical play that the c’s weren’t allowed to play on D or Gianis in particular.. I get that’s the nba but I hate it. I didn’t see any adjustments to the reffing.. I see refs making bad calls and letting stuff go.
Not saying it’s a conspiracy but part of why the Cs are getting blown out in the third is the bucks are getting a ton of foul calls and the Cs aren’t. This Celtics team goes to the hole a lot and consistently doesn’t get calls. Tatum, brown, kyrie.. all get hit a lot but it doesn’t get called regularly.. and I don’t buy that Gianis or Harden have figured out some secret formula.. they just get a ton of calls because that’s how the nba works. We saw What Harden looks like when he doesn’t get calls in game one of their series. Looked like a totally different player.. Tatum-esque with his drives to the hoop without the normal calls he gets. It’s not a rigged system, but there is a hierarchy and Boston hasn’t had a player who gets the same amount of love from the refs for a very long time for whatever reason.
i also think that what truly hurt the celts were having to sit two of their leading scorers for a while with five fouls. Already without Smart and a limited Baynes.. this team can’t afford to get in foul trouble.. so all the calls in the first three quarters really hurt the celts chances both at staying close and then at coming back. Neither brown or Morris could stay aggressive because they had to worry about fouling out. I skimmed the box score but did any bucks get even 4?
What I don't get: I saw the first half of last night's game. I saw game one. Game one they had an excellent strategy of collapsing on Giannis whenever he got the ball in a position where he could've swung around and driven to the basket. Last night they did none of that. All the collapsing on Giannis was weak and late and consisted of maybe one other defender coming over, leading to fouls or easy baskets for him. It appears Brad changed the game plan. Why?
I want to be clear that i don’t think the officials were the sole reason the Celtics lost. They missed a ton of open 3’s in the first half when they really could have pulled away. They definitely lost focus and let adversity get to them mentally in the 3rd.
However, I really can’t believe I am reading posts on saying that the officiating didn’t matter at all or the officiating was great.
Giannis got every call throughout the game. There were multiple late whistles In his favor where the call was only made AFTER he missed the shot. It got to the point where it was literally impossible to defend him. Meanwhile, on most of his drives he is lowering his left shoulder and charging into the defender like Earl Campbell in his prime.
The 3rd quarter there were a ton of bad calls and it clearly got to the Celtics and caused them to change their game. I think it’s incredibly fair to say that the Celtics have to be way more focused and not let some bad calls get to them/cause they to unravel.
I don’t think it’s some grand conspiracy or the game being rigged. I thought the officials were just incompetent all night; They let Budenholzer’s complaining and some players theatricality (Giannis primal screams on contact) influence a few calls and didn’t give the Celtics any sort of home whistle.
Late in the 4th quarter the game was out of reach and the refs attempted to course correct. The value of a Celtics free throw had basically become 0 and it seemed like the refs realized that and called a bunch as to make themselves less a part of the narrative in the post game. There’s no fucking way anyone with a straight face can say the Celtics somehow changed how they played at the end or there was some sort of grand adjustment Brad made down 25 fucking points. In my eyes, that’s even more ridiculous and stupid as the people that say the NBA is trying to push Milwaukee into the finals.
I would also like to add that although CBS calmed himself for the post game presser, he clearly thought the refs were terrible too.
In his in game interview when asked about what needed to change or what happened in the 3rd quarter he said something along the lines of “Well..they lived at the line, it’s tough to make a run when they get so many free throws” and also said “Its hard enough to stay in front of him so we have to cut out the ticky tack stuff”. I think in Brad Stevens world that’s as close as you will get to publicly saying “These refs suck and are giving Milwaukee every touch call possible”
To me, the most important stretch of the game was late 3Q when MIL took something like a 9 point lead when Giannis was on the bench. That can't happen.I mean, it was relatively predicable to even analytical guys like dangercart that the calls were about to get evened up once the game was out of reach
The Celtics defense/wall was leaky, as many have stated Smart/Baynes injuries hurt. The team rarely had arms up on defense like they did Game 1. Kyrie's lack of defensive energy was noticeable.
There is no grand NBA conspiracy and there was one drunk lurker stating that on the game thread. BUT I do have to agree with the bolded above. The NBA Refs are clearly under the microscope, calling a few make-up, meaningless, end of the game, 50/50 calls to even things out is SOP.
Seems to me that this team will go as far as Gordon Hayward takes them. When he is able to get where he wants on offense and makes shots like in the Indiana series or G1 this team is pretty much impossible to defend. When he looks slow and isn’t looking for his offense like in the last two games the second unit gets crushed. We need a strong and aggressive GH if we’re going to win this series.
In the Indiana series he was torching Myles Turner on ISOs. Last night he couldn’t get around Brook Lopez. If he’s just out of gas it is what it is but hopefully he will back stronger Monday.
In the Indiana series he was torching Myles Turner on ISOs. Last night he couldn’t get around Brook Lopez. If he’s just out of gas it is what it is but hopefully he will back stronger Monday.
I said this after last game but MIL guarded GH with Connaughton the first game and Middleton the second. Middleton is giving him problems.
Plus, when BOS is getting the switch, neither GH nor KI are consistently beating MIL's big men. MIL has gone to a switching defense and BOS can't make them pay. That's the series right there.
Yeah, I edited my post to include your second point. No one seems to be able to turn the corner on Brook Lopez which blows my mind.
It's one thing to complain about the officiating in the heat of the moment- that's what gamethreads are made of. But the next day, if you woke up and still think the officials are the story of that game? Come on.
The Celtics have some serious work to do to make this a 7 game series. They were abominable at both ends for an entire quarter. Kyrie needs to make better decisions and trust his teammates, and his teammates need to make some shots. Hayward was invisible, Horford played hot potato when he caught the ball in the second half, Tatum still hasn't really asserted himself.
Just an out and out mess.
Edit: and where was Baynes? I thought going into the series he could be an important piece against Giannis, and imho he was in game one. And now he can't play at all, even when the team is getting humiliated for 10 minutes?
The Celtics have some serious work to do to make this a 7 game series. They were abominable at both ends for an entire quarter. Kyrie needs to make better decisions and trust his teammates, and his teammates need to make some shots. Hayward was invisible, Horford played hot potato when he caught the ball in the second half, Tatum still hasn't really asserted himself.
Just an out and out mess.
Edit: and where was Baynes? I thought going into the series he could be an important piece against Giannis, and imho he was in game one. And now he can't play at all, even when the team is getting humiliated for 10 minutes?
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Baynes rolled his ankle in MIL. C's definitely didn't need the bad end of the injury luck stick considering their underdog status.
I mean it's seems about as analytical as this:
That looks like working backwards to push back against a conspiracy narrative. While I think it's crazy to think there's a conspiracy, I also think it's crazy to say the final free throw numbers tell the story of how the game played out. I think beyond the conspiracy crap a decent amount of the game thread handwringing is because MIL was able to stay in the game because of their ability to get to the line(through skill). It allowed them to control the tempo of the game through three quarters before they put on the foot on the gas and took over the game.
Like I said before I'm firmly in the camp that the C's pathetic defense cost them the game, but I think dismissing the free throw disparity through 3.5 quarters- no matter the reason for the disparity: skill, ref incompetence, a grand conspiracy- as a major part of how the game played out because the numbers in the end were basically even is kinda silly.
I'm starting to think the problem here is Kyrie. As in, under adversity, Kyrie becomes a ball stopper, and the rest of the team follows his lead. He really can make all the passes, but when the team is under pressure he won't.
Edit: Maybe Smart would help because Kyrie needs to be off ball when he's in a mindset to go solo.
1. There's no NBA reffing conspiracy, particularly to favor Milwaukee against Boston.
2. The officiating in the 3rd quarter was atrocious and indefensible.
Statements 1 and 2 need not be mutually exclusive. Is there a way to search somewhere to find out the # of fouls called in the third quarter on each team?
Edit: And if they're going to call the game the way they did in the 3rd quarter (and the bullshit suggestion above that the call on Jaylen in front of coach Bud is an "easy" call that gets called all the time is laughable), then I would prefer the Celtics take a scorched earth approach. You beat the ever living shit out of Giannis physically (Semi even Yabu come to mind) and let the chips fall.
2. The officiating in the 3rd quarter was atrocious and indefensible.
Statements 1 and 2 need not be mutually exclusive. Is there a way to search somewhere to find out the # of fouls called in the third quarter on each team?
Edit: And if they're going to call the game the way they did in the 3rd quarter (and the bullshit suggestion above that the call on Jaylen in front of coach Bud is an "easy" call that gets called all the time is laughable), then I would prefer the Celtics take a scorched earth approach. You beat the ever living shit out of Giannis physically (Semi even Yabu come to mind) and let the chips fall.
To me the difference is Milwaukee is able to finish at the rim and the Celtics aren't. Both teams shot 40% from 3 and made a ton of free throws. Turnovers and rebounds were about the same. But the Bucks were 27/46 from 2, Celtics 19/41. Bucks had 7 blocks to the Celtics 3. Give Lopez and GA credit for their interior defense, they've got the C's intimidated inside. Brown is the one guy who looks confident taking to rim for the Celtics.