I don't know if you can backdate a suspension though. I mean, A Rod already received those paychecks. I doubt they can backdate the suspension and then try to recoup the money.
Report: A-Rod banned through 2014?
- Thread starter mabrowndog
- Start date
ARod says he can play now. Cashman says he can't play until August, at the earliest:
http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/07/25/cashman-a-rod-will-not-be-ready-to-play-until-some-time-in-august-at-the-earliest/
God I love this. I'm gonna hate it if the Yankees get out from under the contract, but for now it is fantastic theater.
It's pretty obvious that the Yankees want to keep him off the field until a suspension is handed down, probably so they can then file an insurance claim, although all of this public discussion will surely make any claim immediately denied.
http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/07/25/cashman-a-rod-will-not-be-ready-to-play-until-some-time-in-august-at-the-earliest/
God I love this. I'm gonna hate it if the Yankees get out from under the contract, but for now it is fantastic theater.
It's pretty obvious that the Yankees want to keep him off the field until a suspension is handed down, probably so they can then file an insurance claim, although all of this public discussion will surely make any claim immediately denied.
If they can keep him off the field until a suspension is handed down, they can then claim that he was hurt all year and wouldn't have been able to play anyway, paving the way for a potential insurance claim. The insurance company probably won't buy this, but if ARod plays even one game they have no chance of collecting on a potential claim (assuming the contract is for missing an entire season and not part, or the majority, of one).Sampo Gida said:
I think it is also becoming increasingly clear that they want no part of ARod suiting up for them again. If he's healthy, though, their only options are a trade, for which there is probably no market, or releasing him and paying his salary anyway.
I heard a (partial) comment by Francesa that 8/1 is important because (if I heard/interpreted correctly) an insurance claim can then be submitted re ARod's missing 4 months of the season-maybe there is some time deductible for a player coming off majot surgery (my speculation). So whether holding out Arod until 8/1 is claim driven or DL protocol is open to debate.maufman said:
That was Francesa's question to ARod (he was on Francesa briefly around 5:45)
I think the Y's fervent desire is that MLB bans/suspends ARod before he ever takes the field. Again my speculation, perhaps that would enable them to initiate the claims process for the '13 money. There are so many angles to this saga, its the real Money Ball.
bankshot1 said:
Dan Patrick, on his show today, was saying that a source told him that the Yankees need A-Rod to be unavailable for a full 12 months in order to claim 80% of this year's salary from insurance. The anniversary they're aiming for is one year from his last game played, which was last October. At this point, they're banking on keeping him off the field with an injury, real or not, until the suspension comes down.
maufman said:
If Arod is messing with the Yankees ability to collect insurance he must have reason the believe the Yankees are lobbying MLB for a lengthy suspension. I mean, why would Arod care if the Yankees got some salary relief unless they were messing with him (or he thought they were). Frankly, I am pretty sure the delay to his surgery, backed up by Arods Doc, was precisely so the Yankees could collect by delaying the date he would be able to play, and Arod cooperated with that. Only thing that has changed since has been the threat of suspension.
.
Unless their insurer is run by complete morons, they are going to fight tooth and nail to avoid a payout. There is way too much smoke here for them not to do so.
Edit: If some of the posts above me are true, there may even be grounds to claim insurance fraud.
Edit: If some of the posts above me are true, there may even be grounds to claim insurance fraud.
Red(s)HawksFan said:
I have heard 9 million thrown around, but maybe that's with an Aug 1 return (or 100 games, a number previously thrown around), don't know. However, I doubt the insurance company pays off in full at 80% since Arod is unlikely to cooperate, and insurance companies frown on insurance fraud. Hard to miss 2 months with a Grade 1 strain when the recovery time is usually 3-13 days.
That's what it seems, but as noted just above, if I had a policy claim for 80% of ARod's '13 salary, I may have a few questions to ask first. This thing is going to be fun to watch.
Sampo Gida said:
The point would be that the grade 1 strain is just a bridge to the impending suspension that will take A-Rod out for the remainder of the season. I don't think the implication is supposed to be that the quad will keep him out through October.
Red(s)HawksFan said:
The insurance wont count the suspension time though unless the Yankees could prove his injury would have prevented him from playing while suspended. I think for insurance pay out purposes, any suspension Arod receives and its starting point is irrelevant.
Sampo Gida said:
By all accounts, there is a four-month deductible in the insurance policy. Here is an article from Dec 12 that broached the subject: http://espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/story/_/id/8708864/alex-rodriguez-contract-new-york-yankees-insured-most-114m-source-says.
My best guess is that (i) the Yankees are insured for his contract but have to pay a 4 month deductible, so they recoup 75% of his salary; (ii) ARod has to be out for a year before they can start collecting; and (iii) if ARod is suspended, that is NOT going to help the MFYs collect on the insurance (for reasons mentioned above, and because the policy likely says that he has be to eligible to play but unable physically to perform).
I think I understand what the MFYs are doing. They have nothing to lose by insisting that ARod follow procedure and besides, it's an interesting club with which to strike him.
I have no idea what ARod is doing. Maybe he just wants to get back on the field a few times before his career is basically ended (whether by injury or lengthy suspension).
Yeah this. As dumb as we'd all like to think the organization is, they aren't dumb enough to get into a pissing match with an insurance company and risk a fraud claim over what is chump change to them. I think their motivation is pretty simple- they don't want this asshole around their team. All of this conjecture is interesting but I think some people are over-thinking this. I hope I'm wrong though, because my guess is not nearly as interesting.NYCSox said:
Marbleheader said:
Truer words were never spoken. This is great drama. Thank you ARod. I'm a huge fan again..
It's truly amazing how a few years (ok close to 10) changes your view.
There was a time when Sox fans were distraught over the collapse of the trade to acquire A-Rod and livid that it was the Yankees who got him.
Now, we are all supremely grateful that it isn't us dealing with all this.
There was a time when Sox fans were distraught over the collapse of the trade to acquire A-Rod and livid that it was the Yankees who got him.
Now, we are all supremely grateful that it isn't us dealing with all this.
Definitely this. I recall seeing an interview with Schilling somewhere after the '04 Series and he said that Boston would not have gone on to win the WS if A-Rod is a member of the Red Sox. I agreed with him then and still do. For all his talent, A-Rod was never a player I wanted on the Sox.Dionysus said:
Sampo Gida said:
I don't know which is dumber: speculating about A-Rod's defenses to charges not yet brought on the basis of evidence not yet revealed, or speculating about how an undetermined insurance company wrote an undisclosed manuscript policy.
Dear lord, the only thing that will be better than this is if he comes back, proceeds to hit .215 and the accusations of tanking it hits the back page in absolute full swing.
Occam's razor. I do think both are simultaneously true. The Yankees have nothing to lose, financially or competitively (unless you think ARod can return to being a better than average 3rd baseman, or better than what they have been using there, without being a complete distraction: unlikely) by keeping him out as long as possible and then, depending on the situation and the specifics of the insurance policy, explore a potential claim.glennhoffmania said:
But the main impetus in all of this is that they want him no where near the team. Not now, and probably not ever.
question:
What do the yankees have to gain by not allowing him to play? Is it a real possibility they are keeping him off the field until the MLB suspends him? Or are they really just concerned he is still injured?
Are their financial reasons behind not allowing him to play?
What do the yankees have to gain by not allowing him to play? Is it a real possibility they are keeping him off the field until the MLB suspends him? Or are they really just concerned he is still injured?
Are their financial reasons behind not allowing him to play?
My speculation:
IMO this is almost entirely financially drive, from both sides. $100MM is a lot of dough.
But I think there are also images to protect, from both sides. ARod's reputation is toast. Unless he is somehow vindicated, or he can cast doubt on the case against him (Braun in '12) I can't see him playing MLB ball again. (with a team other than the Y's, who may have to carry him on the roster) Who need his tarnished image, or a prima donna aging slugger with health and PED issues? Maybe he can play in Japan?
Ys image is salvageable, but they have not come off well in this matter either. Given their track record of employing PED users in the past, their deniability or sanctimony about ARod and PEDs will ring hollow. But if they win again, all will be forgiven.
IMO in a the Yankees perfect world, ARod gets banned for life before he re-takes the field, and maybe they can get out from under the contract until it gets litigated. Who knows.that outcome?
IMO the injury/playing issue, the suspension issue and the Ys contractual obligations to ARod are linked. Again my speculation: If they allow him to play and he plays and then gets suspended/banned and then he appeals, without getting re-injured, the potential insurance claim may no longer be collectible, or will be limited to an insignificant amount.
IMO this is almost entirely financially drive, from both sides. $100MM is a lot of dough.
But I think there are also images to protect, from both sides. ARod's reputation is toast. Unless he is somehow vindicated, or he can cast doubt on the case against him (Braun in '12) I can't see him playing MLB ball again. (with a team other than the Y's, who may have to carry him on the roster) Who need his tarnished image, or a prima donna aging slugger with health and PED issues? Maybe he can play in Japan?
Ys image is salvageable, but they have not come off well in this matter either. Given their track record of employing PED users in the past, their deniability or sanctimony about ARod and PEDs will ring hollow. But if they win again, all will be forgiven.
IMO in a the Yankees perfect world, ARod gets banned for life before he re-takes the field, and maybe they can get out from under the contract until it gets litigated. Who knows.that outcome?
IMO the injury/playing issue, the suspension issue and the Ys contractual obligations to ARod are linked. Again my speculation: If they allow him to play and he plays and then gets suspended/banned and then he appeals, without getting re-injured, the potential insurance claim may no longer be collectible, or will be limited to an insignificant amount.
ahh yes. thanks. I have been reading the thread, and it still wasnt clear to me. I'm slow today. I missed the bus today.
Dionysus said:
Well a few of us were smarter than that and saw him for who he was long before it became obvious to the rest of the world :q:
I remember Gammo going on and on about how ARod was such a great face of the franchise guy. Someone who would do all the handshaking and marketing work , and would be happy to represent the team in the community, etc.
bankshot1 said:
I don't think this is correct. It is in the best interests of the MFYs to let ARoid play since if he doesn't make some attempt to play (as discussed above), it is very unlikely that the insurance claim will be approved.
Besides, I doubt the suspension is going to come down this year, so how are the MFYs going to keep ARoid out for the rest of the year?
I think the MFYs are just following protocol as strictly as they can because in these kind of situations, it's the best thing for them to do. I think there are way too many variables outside of the MFY's control for them to be trying to figure out whether or not they will have to pay ARoid this year, next year, or for the rest of his contract.
The best interests of the Yankees depends which interest you are looking at: on-field wins, potential insurance claims or potential avoidance of the rest of the contract. And some of these interests may be at odds with one another. Thats why I think they are linked.wade boggs chicken dinner said:
But since I (we) don't know how some of these mechanisms work (in particular the terms of the insurance), I'm just guessing. The Y's are probably restricted in what they can do under MLB policies but they may have some leeway, and perhaps if they can keep ARod off the field for as long as possible, and a MLB ruling comes down in the next week, some of these interests may become clearer.
BigMike said:
Bullet dodged. I remember someone in the media writing about what a class act A-Rod was and how he toured Harvard. . .unlike that problem guy, Manny Ramirez, circa 2003.
If Arod gets on the field this year, he establishes that he is physically capable of playing. If whatever penalty MLB assesses does not begin till 2014, ARod's contract is still in force at the end of the suspension. Unless there is some injury while Alex is suspended, the Yankees will have a hard time claiming he is physically incapable of playing after the suspension is over. If he is capable of DHing he is physically capable of playing.
It might be in the best interest of the Yankees to get him back on the field this year and hope he breaks down. I have a feeling they don't see it this way.
It might be in the best interest of the Yankees to get him back on the field this year and hope he breaks down. I have a feeling they don't see it this way.
wade boggs chicken dinner said:
The yanks might have been told behind closed doors Alex will be punished for one of these possible problems in the near future. Of course this is just all speculation on my part.
I think you guys are over thinking the club's motivation to keep ARod off the field. They know what we all know, that he is going to be suspended. They are probably just trying to avoid putting him back in the line-up only to have him suspended a few days later. It would be embarrassing to the team and bad for morale.
AlNipper49 said:
Actually, I'd prefer he come back, tear it up for a few games, and then get the lifetime ban while Yankee fans start wearing "Free A-Rod!" shirts to games.
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/yankees/mlb_bans_in_ped_case_likely_to_drop_9vrYirxam2vt7mihs3UiKI
New York Post saying that A-Rod could be suspended through the end of the 2014 season.
New York Post saying that A-Rod could be suspended through the end of the 2014 season.
axx said:
If MLB is planning to announce the suspensions this week, that could go a long way toward explaining why 8/1 was the agreed upon date for A-Rod's "return" from rehab.
So long as the Yankees are on the hook, with no help from insurance, for the remainder of his guaranteed contract, I could care less what happens to him. I'd rather he played as he'll be mocked non-stop by fans (including NYY fans), likely suck (which just adds another void in their lineup), and piss off his teammates. I'd love to see the umpires conspire against him as well (while I'm dreaming, that is). Pitches up and in 5-6 times in a row? Hell, two of them are called strikes and no warning issued to the pitcher.
Could he play in Japan or somewhere next year, just for reps even, without voiding his MLB contract? He can't spend the next season and a half doing soft toss.
IpswichSox said:
As I recall, Manny was barred from a winter league when he was still facing a suspension (the 100 game one he "retired" to avoid) because the league did not want to go against MLB's sanction. Wouldn't surprise me at all if NPB did something similar, though I think they and most other leagues would stay away simply because he's still under contract to an MLB team.
If Alex Rodriguez refuses deal from MLB, Bud Selig is expected to pursue lifetime suspension
Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/i-team/deal-a-rod-faces-historic-ban-article-1.1411133#ixzz2aNi3XF1e
Dont be an idiot a-rod
Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/i-team/deal-a-rod-faces-historic-ban-article-1.1411133#ixzz2aNi3XF1e
Dont be an idiot a-rod
Well a few of us were smarter than that and saw him for who he was long before it became obvious to the rest of the world :q:
I remember Gammo going on and on about how ARod was such a great face of the franchise guy. Someone who would do all the handshaking and marketing work , and would be happy to represent the team in the community, etc.
I suspect if you asked Gammons today what he thinks of the ARod situation, he'd say it's sad. And he'd probably not be totally off base. My wife has long thought that ARod's biggest problem is that he never had a father. I know it sounds a little silly--and that countless athletes have gone through and seen much, much worse--but I don't think she's necessarily wrong. The guy has always been desperate for approval -- from fans, from the media, from ownership, everyone. This, despite the fact that he was clearly the most talented non-pitcher in the game for more than a decade and paid more than any athlete in history. Think about that for a second. It almost doesn't make any sense.
As much of an arrogant dick the guy acts like so much of the time, you do get the sense that he's got this almost pathological need to be liked and admired -- to fit in to a club that hates guys like him.
But It's like he literally can't help himself no matter how hard he tries to say the right thing. For instance, I remember this interview with him back in 2005 or so where he feigned some bullshit about being just one of 25 guys or whatever. Most guys would have left it at that. But not ARod. In the next breath he said he never once doubted that he was the best player on the field every time he suited up.
So regardless of whether it stems from a Daddy issue or something else, for Gammons--whose defining quality as a writer is his empathy and his belief that the sport is still about people--this is probably pretty tragic. Because this story's about a guy who no matter how good things should have been for him, they were never good enough.
I remember Gammo going on and on about how ARod was such a great face of the franchise guy. Someone who would do all the handshaking and marketing work , and would be happy to represent the team in the community, etc.
I suspect if you asked Gammons today what he thinks of the ARod situation, he'd say it's sad. And he'd probably not be totally off base. My wife has long thought that ARod's biggest problem is that he never had a father. I know it sounds a little silly--and that countless athletes have gone through and seen much, much worse--but I don't think she's necessarily wrong. The guy has always been desperate for approval -- from fans, from the media, from ownership, everyone. This, despite the fact that he was clearly the most talented non-pitcher in the game for more than a decade and paid more than any athlete in history. Think about that for a second. It almost doesn't make any sense.
As much of an arrogant dick the guy acts like so much of the time, you do get the sense that he's got this almost pathological need to be liked and admired -- to fit in to a club that hates guys like him.
But It's like he literally can't help himself no matter how hard he tries to say the right thing. For instance, I remember this interview with him back in 2005 or so where he feigned some bullshit about being just one of 25 guys or whatever. Most guys would have left it at that. But not ARod. In the next breath he said he never once doubted that he was the best player on the field every time he suited up.
So regardless of whether it stems from a Daddy issue or something else, for Gammons--whose defining quality as a writer is his empathy and his belief that the sport is still about people--this is probably pretty tragic. Because this story's about a guy who no matter how good things should have been for him, they were never good enough.
soxhop411 said:
I'm not really sure what's the best play for him in this case anyway - with his injuries, a year+ suspension could be the end for him anyway (I guess he could come back and collect salary afterwards, but it pretty much formally ends any hope of chasing records and might very well be the last game he plays if this year's decline is any indication). With the way the HOF voters seem to be trending with regards to steroid issues (especially if he accepts a deal that accepts guilt for some sort of obstruction of investigation-type of issue), it may not matter whether he's suspended for life or makes a deal from that perspective either.
If he or people he listens to believes that he might win an arbitration / etc case of a lifetime suspension based solely on documents, it may not be the worst idea to just try to fight that instead of making a deal.
Great post. Reads like we may look at the ARod situation similarly. Mind you, it isn't feeling sorry for or excusing him, but I think you're right about Gammons and what he'd say about the situation. His existence as a public figure since signing in TEX has been just one thing after another for him, and I think you nail many of the reasons why.
The image thats always burned into my head is the 2001 HR Derby in Seattle. Lots of talk about how he'd be received during that AS break after bolting for TEX and the $$ the previous winter. I remember thinking "yeah, I doubt he's too worried about some boos could we move on?"
Will never forget the look on his face when he was intro'd for the Derby and the boos just started raining down. Absolutely the height of discomfort, embarrassment, shock and a pinch of confusion.
edit- referring to VEs post
The image thats always burned into my head is the 2001 HR Derby in Seattle. Lots of talk about how he'd be received during that AS break after bolting for TEX and the $$ the previous winter. I remember thinking "yeah, I doubt he's too worried about some boos could we move on?"
Will never forget the look on his face when he was intro'd for the Derby and the boos just started raining down. Absolutely the height of discomfort, embarrassment, shock and a pinch of confusion.
edit- referring to VEs post
alright, so if our main mission is for the yankees to suffer, what do we do here?
Hope he fights it and wins? Does he have any chance of winning an appeal?
Take the medicine for the next 1.5 years and then play out his contract and make the Yanks pay 20+mil per year when he returns? Of course does that mean his contract doesn't count against the luxury tax next year?
It certainly seems like there has been the intention all along for the Yanks to keep him off the field until MLB drops the hammer, I would assume they've in constant conversations with Selig about when the suspension will come and he will be hit before 8/1.
Hope he fights it and wins? Does he have any chance of winning an appeal?
Take the medicine for the next 1.5 years and then play out his contract and make the Yanks pay 20+mil per year when he returns? Of course does that mean his contract doesn't count against the luxury tax next year?
It certainly seems like there has been the intention all along for the Yanks to keep him off the field until MLB drops the hammer, I would assume they've in constant conversations with Selig about when the suspension will come and he will be hit before 8/1.
soxhop411 said:
60 million before taxes ain't all that much to risk for a guy with life time earnings of 353 million, not including endorsements.
I assume he has some idea of what evidence MLB has against him and if he has a chance of fighting it. Should be a good show if he fights it.