Red Sox deleted policy on number retirement on their website

[soxhop411]

https://twitter.com/iamjoonlee/status/613067210295255040

https://twitter.com/iamjoonlee/status/613067210295255040

link to tweet

 

[DJnVa]

Is that a scandal or just a change in policy?
 
Seems a good idea to me.

 

[CoRP]

accurately titled thread.

 

[Savin Hillbilly]

It was either that, or add a third clause saying "Or, it is glaringly obvious to anyone with half a brain that retiring the number is appropriate."

 

[FL4WL3SS]

They're most likely anticipating David Ortiz in a few years as well. His chances of getting in the Hall are probably less than 50/50, but he absolutely deserves to get his number retired.

 

[moondog80]

They changed the policy once for Carlton Fisk (which was an utter farce), another time for Johnny Pesky, and then again for Pedro Martinez.   I'm fine with all of those selections.  But just be honest and say that the main criteria are:
 
-Must be a member of the HOF, or have made truly special and unique contributions to the team over a long period.
-Must not be Wade Boggs. 

 

[TomRicardo]

They're most likely anticipating David Ortiz in a few years as well. His chances of getting in the Hall are probably less than 50/50, but he absolutely deserves to get his number retired.

 
Both Pedro and Pesky broke those rules.
 
Why have rules that don't apply 25% of the people?
 
Fisk played 10 seasons with the Sox (69, 71-80)

 

[Jake Peavy's Demons]

Dwight Evans, come on down? I would love to see his number retired as well.

 

[JohntheBaptist]

 
-Must be a member of the HOF, or have made truly special and unique contributions to the team over a long period.
-Must not be Wade Boggs. 

I laughed.

 

[dynomite]

They changed the policy once for Carlton Fisk (which was an utter farce), another time for Johnny Pesky, and then again for Pedro Martinez.   I'm fine with all of those selections.  But just be honest and say that the main criteria are:
 
-Must be a member of the HOF, or have made truly special and unique contributions to the team over a long period.
-Must not be Wade Boggs. 

I agree with this.

In some ways, the team retirement ceremony feels more meaningful for the guys who DON'T get into the Hall of Fame, and for whom this is their only chance at lasting appreciation.

For instance: Jason Varitek. He played 500 more games with the Sox than Fisk and won 2 World Series, but he wouldn't have his number retired under the old system.

 

[biollante]

I would like to see no numbers retired. It gets out of hand and is weird hero worship. Then again, I couldn't see anyone else wearing #8. 

 

[Nite Vizhun UV]

 
Weird hero worship? Isn't that pretty much what sports is?

 
No, it's weird laundry worship.

 

[moondog80]

I laughed.

 
 I discuss this in, of all places,  the Shuaghnessy thread, but the only modern HOFer other than Boggs I could find with a number that was not retired was Goose Gossage.  A reliever who was something of a nomad -- most associated with the Yankees but accumulated less than 50% of his WAR with them, and of course they already have a million other retired numbers.  Any other team probably retires his number -- the Cardinals retired Sutter and Fingers had his number retired by two different teams.  And Wade Boggs is no borderline HOFer like Perez or Rice or Dawson or Blyleven (all retired numbers).  First ballot, 92%.
 
 But he had the nerve to go to a different team when the Sox didn't want him, and worse, he rode a horse.  As though he should have been subdued when his team won the WS.

 

[LeoCarrillo]

 
No, it's weird laundry worship.

 
So true. Except for singles tennis. Unless, of course, you're really fond of, say, Ana Ivanovic's tank top.
 

 

[JohntheBaptist]

 
 I discuss this in, of all places,  the Shuaghnessy thread, but the only modern HOFer other than Boggs I could find with a number that was not retired was Goose Gossage.  A reliever who was something of a nomad -- most associated with the Yankees but accumulated less than 50% of his WAR with them, and of course they already have a million other retired numbers.  Any other team probably retires his number -- the Cardinals retired Sutter and Fingers had his number retired by two different teams.  And Wade Boggs is no borderline HOFer like Perez or Rice or Dawson or Blyleven (all retired numbers).  First ballot, 92%.
 
 But he had the nerve to go to a different team when the Sox didn't want him, and worse, he rode a horse.  As though he should have been subdued when his team won the WS.

Yeah it is definitely strange--and it seems pretty ok with everyone? On one hand I get it because Yankees but youre right- he is an enormous part of the teams history to be just passed over.

For us weirdo hero worshippers anyway.

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

Wade Boggs' #26 will get retired.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
FOR BROCK HOLT

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

 
 I discuss this in, of all places,  the Shuaghnessy thread, but the only modern HOFer other than Boggs I could find with a number that was not retired was Goose Gossage.  A reliever who was something of a nomad -- most associated with the Yankees but accumulated less than 50% of his WAR with them, and of course they already have a million other retired numbers.  Any other team probably retires his number -- the Cardinals retired Sutter and Fingers had his number retired by two different teams.  And Wade Boggs is no borderline HOFer like Perez or Rice or Dawson or Blyleven (all retired numbers).  First ballot, 92%.
 
 But he had the nerve to go to a different team when the Sox didn't want him, and worse, he rode a horse.  As though he should have been subdued when his team won the WS.

 
Tampa retired Boggs' number, so Goose is the only player that fits your criteria (modern HOFer with no number retired).

 

[moondog80]

 
Tampa retired Boggs' number, so Goose is the only player that fits your criteria (modern HOFer with no number retired).

 
 
We both know that's a silly technicality, and that my larger point stands.

 

[strek1]

Excellent - it means there's still hope for Bernie Carbo

 

[bankshot1]

 
Weird hero worship? Isn't that pretty much what sports is?

+1
 
nailed it

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

 
 
We both know that's a silly technicality.

 
It's only silly because it doesn't fit your narrative.  Boggs and the Sox apparently don't have much of a relationship, which despite his qualifications puts him down on the priority list to be "honored" by the team.

 

[moondog80]

 
It's only silly because it doesn't fit your narrative.  Boggs and the Sox apparently don't have much of a relationship, which despite his qualifications puts him down on the priority list to be "honored" by the team.

 
No, it's silly because the point  -- obviously -- is that the responsibility to retire Boggs' number rests on the Red Sox' shoulders.  Just because the Rays embarrassed themselves, that doesn't absolve the Red Sox, regardless of whether or not Boggs kisses Larry Lucchino's ring.

 

[Papelbon's Poutine]

 
No, it's silly because the point  -- obviously -- is that the responsibility to retire Boggs' number rests on the Red Sox' shoulders.  Just because the Rays embarrassed themselves, that doesn't absolve the Red Sox, regardless of whether or not Boggs kisses Larry Lucchino's ring.

Why does any team have a responsibility to retire a player's number?

 

[moondog80]

Why does any team have a responsibility to retire a players number?

 
To the degree that such a concept exists Red Sox "own" Boggs' historical rights.  Nolan Ryan can be shared by the Angels and Astros and Rangers, Frank Robinson by the O's and Reds, but the Red Sox obviously dominate the narrative of Boggs' career.  Thus, the decision to honor him (or not) rests with the Red Sox.
 
The game was to find a modern HOFer whose number was not retired; I felt that Boggs' number being retired by the Rays evades the spirit of the question and should not be considered.   RedHawk disagreed.  

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

 
To the degree that such a concept exists Red Sox "own" Boggs' historical rights.  Nolan Ryan can be shared by the Angels and Astros and Rangers, Frank Robinson by the O's and Reds, but the Red Sox obviously dominate the narrative of Boggs' career.  Thus, the decision to honor him (or not) rests with the Red Sox.
 
The game was to find a modern HOFer whose number was not retired; I felt that Boggs' number being retired by the Rays evades the spirit of the question and should not be considered.   RedHawk disagreed.  

 
"evades the spirit" = "doesn't fit the narrative"
 
Some teams make it a rare honor, some teams water down the honor to the point of meaninglessness (Yankees, Celtics), most teams are in the middle and do it when the mood strikes them (or they're looking to boost numbers at the gate).  In the end though, it's all a popularity contest.  The Sox retired Fisk and Rice and Pesky because fans cared to see it happen.  I'm guessing that the fact that Boggs' 26 is on Brock Holt's back right now instead of on the facade is because not enough of the fanbase gives a shit one way or the other.

 

[moondog80]

 
"evades the spirit" = "doesn't fit the narrative"
 

 
If you can't see that Boggs' number being retired by the Rays is a uniquely peculiar circumstance, I don't know what else to tell you.  But fine.  The new, almost exactly the same but now awkwardly worded, game is to find a modern HOFer whose number is not retired by any team with whom said player accumulated a career WAR of at least 1.5.

 

[Mugsy's Jock]

Wade Boggs' #26 will get retired.
 
 
 
 
 
FOR BROCK HOLT

This post is full of win.

 

[Papelbon's Poutine]

 
To the degree that such a concept exists Red Sox "own" Boggs' historical rights.  Nolan Ryan can be shared by the Angels and Astros and Rangers, Frank Robinson by the O's and Reds, but the Red Sox obviously dominate the narrative of Boggs' career.  Thus, the decision to honor him (or not) rests with the Red Sox.
 
 

I understand why you think if anyone should do it, it should be the Red Sox. That's not my question. My question is why the team has a "responsibility" to bestow an honor on any player.

Because they don't. You may want to argue that he deserves it and that's a perfectly reasonable debate, but it's not owed to him, whether he's a HoFer or not. Part of retiring a number is acknowledging the connection the player had with the franchise, the fans and contributions to iconic moments in the history of the team. Boggs had none of those, was generally considered a prick and has shown no inclination to mend any fences. (Christ, Clemens even has done that much and his departure and Yankees tenure was a tad more acrimonious on both ends.)

Boggs has no connection to these owners or front office. The majority of fans don't give a shit because he's wasn't beloved. And he's seemingly done nothing on either of those fronts to improve the situation. You call it 'kissing the ring', but I think 'not perpetuating your reputation of being a prick' is more accurate.

 

[moondog80]

I understand why you think if anyone should do it, it should be the Red Sox. That's not my question. My question is why the team has a "responsibility" to bestow an honor on any player.

Because they don't. You may want to argue that he deserves it and that's a perfectly reasonable debate, but it's not owed to him, whether he's a HoFer or not. Part of retiring a number is acknowledging the connection the player had with the franchise, the fans and contributions to iconic moments in the history of the team. Boggs had none of those, was generally considered a prick and has shown no inclination to mend any fences. (Christ, Clemens even has done that much and his departure and Yankees tenure was a tad more acrimonious on both ends.)

Boggs has no connection to these owners or front office. The majority of fans don't give a shit because he's wasn't beloved. And he's seemingly done nothing on either of those fronts to improve the situation. You call it 'kissing the ring', but I think 'not perpetuating your reputation of being a prick' is more accurate.

 
We agree, they have the responsibility to decide upon the honor, not necessarily to bestow it.
 
You can make all the excuses you want about connections to the front office (what, specifically, should Boggs do?), but the fact remains that Boggs' number not being retired by the Red Sox is an outlier of 56-game-hitting-streak proportions.  What is the most similar case?  In any sport?  

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

We agree, they have the responsibility to decide upon the honor, not necessarily to bestow it.
 
You can make all the excuses you want about connections to the front office (what, specifically, should Boggs do?), but the fact remains that Boggs' number not being retired by the Red Sox is an outlier of 56-game-hitting-streak proportions.  What is the most similar case?  In any sport?

 
How about attending games once in a while and hanging out in the Legends' suite?  Not a huge commitment, a few games a year maybe.  If Evans and Petrocelli and Lonborg and Lynn and Lee and Eck and Rice and Fisk can do it, why can't Boggs?
 
He lives in Florida, does he ever make appearances at Jetblue Park?  Spend a day or two (or more) instructing at camp like Evans and Rice and Tek and Wake and Pedro do.
 
They might be small gestures, but they can't hurt.  As I said, it's all a popularity contest.  You have to shake hands and kiss babies sometimes.

 

[SoxFanInCali]

 
We agree, they have the responsibility to decide upon the honor, not necessarily to bestow it.
 
You can make all the excuses you want about connections to the front office (what, specifically, should Boggs do?), but the fact remains that Boggs' number not being retired by the Red Sox is an outlier of 56-game-hitting-streak proportions.  What is the most similar case?  In any sport?  

 
Steve Garvey isn't a Hall of Famer, but I always thought it was funny that the Padres retired his number but the Dodgers didn't.
 
To me, retired numbers and Hall of Fame are 2 completely separate things, even though there is a big overlap.  The idea that every guy who makes the Hall of Fame should have his number retired is overkill, to me. I thought it was unnecessary to retire Rice's number, and that's coming from a guy who still wears #14 when playing softball.

 

[Papelbon's Poutine]

Red(s)HawkFan covered the Boggs portion but to this: 
 

  What is the most similar case?  In any sport?  

 
The Google machine and some quick math tells me that there are 252 players inducted into the NFL HoF (295 total, 43 of which are coaches, owners or contributors). 139 numbers have been retired across the NFL (which includes stupid shit like the Seahawks #12 and any retired for a coach or owner, I didn't bother to go through the list). So, 113 players. Even without looking at NBA or NHL, I'd say it's not as egregious as you're making it. 

 

[RedOctober3829]

Miller Lite owns Boggs' historical rights. Maybe he'll get a case of beer named after him.

 

[moondog80]

Red(s)HawkFan covered the Boggs portion but to this: 
 
 
The Google machine and some quick math tells me that there are 252 players inducted into the NFL HoF (295 total, 43 of which are coaches, owners or contributors). 139 numbers have been retired across the NFL (which includes stupid shit like the Seahawks #12 and any retired for a coach or owner, I didn't bother to go through the list). So, 113 players. Even without looking at NBA or NHL, I'd say it's not as egregious as you're making it. 

If there are only 139 retired numbers in the NFL, that means a lot of teams simply don't do it altogether -- they instead do a ring of honor or some such thing. Which makes sense, since NFL teams are so big and there are only so many numbers to go around. So I think it's reasonable to restrict to situations where teams fail to retire the number of just one particular player.

 

[Papelbon's Poutine]

If there are only 139 retired numbers in the NFL, that means a lot of teams simply don't do it altogether -- they instead do a ring of honor or some such thing. Which makes sense, since NFL teams are so big and there are only so many numbers to go around. So I think it's reasonable to restrict to situations where teams fail to retire the number of just one particular player.

 
 
You asked for an example of a HoFer not having his number retired "in any other sport". I gave you 113+ of them. But please, don't let that interrupt you. Please continue to tell us about Wade Boggs' persecution at the hand of the evil Lord Lucchino. 

 

[moondog80]

 
 
You asked for an example of a HoFer not having his number retired "in any other sport". I gave you 113+ of them. But please, don't let that interrupt you. Please continue to tell us about Wade Boggs' persecution at the hand of the evil Lord Lucchino. 

So you really think teams that don't retire numbers altogether gets at the spirit of my question, of teams that notably pass over one player?

 

[ItOnceWasMyLife]

So, with the policy offically obliterated, will Clemens have his day in the sun soon?  I was surprised he went in the Red Sox HoF recently and this ownership group has obviously refused to assign #21 to anyone else.

 

[moondog80]

 
How about attending games once in a while and hanging out in the Legends' suite?  Not a huge commitment, a few games a year maybe.  If Evans and Petrocelli and Lonborg and Lynn and Lee and Eck and Rice and Fisk can do it, why can't Boggs?
 
He lives in Florida, does he ever make appearances at Jetblue Park?  Spend a day or two (or more) instructing at camp like Evans and Rice and Tek and Wake and Pedro do.
 
They might be small gestures, but they can't hurt.  As I said, it's all a popularity contest.  You have to shake hands and kiss babies sometimes.

Do we know that he's been invited? For his part, I can find articles where he says it would be an honor for his number to be retired, with the Red Sox only commenting that they have a policy, which apparently applies only to Wade Boggs.

 

[lexrageorge]

Nate Archibald is in the NBA Hall of Fame.  One of his Celtics teams won a championship.  His #7 is not retired by the Celtics, a franchise that has retired 22 numbers in a period far shorter than the Red Sox existence, and will probably add at least one more (#34) in a few years.  
 
Retired numbers are arbitrary.  It's an honor bestowed by a team, not the HoF, and if the team wants to use fan popularity as a criterion, they are free to do that.  Boggs was a self absorbed jerk when he left town, and got himself involved in a scandal or three while he was here.  Which means the onus was on him to work to mend fences with the team if he really wanted his number retired.  Boggs has been in the Red Sox Hall of Fame for 11 years now, so it's not like he's been completely forgotten or discarded by the current owners.  

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Do we know that he's been invited? For his part, I can find articles where he says it would be an honor for his number to be retired, with the Red Sox only commenting that they have a policy, which apparently applies only to Wade Boggs.

 
A policy that until very recently they had printed on their website and which applied to a number of former Red Sox players (all non-number retired players, actually), not just Boggs.  Now that the policy has seemingly disappeared, perhaps their tune is changing or will change.
 
My only real point since this discussion began this morning was to point out that the original policy excluded Boggs among several other HOFers who've worn the Red Sox uniform, but that exceptions were made in special cases.  The exceptions centered on the players being employed by the team post-playing career, whether it was nominal as in the case of Fisk or in an extensive fashion as in the case of Pesky.  Pedro having his number retired next month also fits the exception as he is currently employed by the team.
 
The relationship is a two way street.  We don't know what overtures Henry/Lucchino have made to Boggs or Boggs has made to Henry/Lucchino.  Could be none by either side.  Could be that both sides have tried to initiate something.  Bottom line is we don't know.  Could very well be that the removal of the old rules has nothing to do with Pedro and everything to do with paving the way to retiring #26 and #21 and #33 and #49 and #24 and #34 and #15 and so on.

 

[moondog80]

Nate Archibald is in the NBA Hall of Fame.  One of his Celtics teams won a championship.  His #7 is not retired by the Celtics, a franchise that has retired 22 numbers in a period far shorter than the Red Sox existence, and will probably add at least one more (#34) in a few years.  
 
Retired numbers are arbitrary.  It's an honor bestowed by a team, not the HoF, and if the team wants to use fan popularity as a criterion, they are free to do that.  Boggs was a self absorbed jerk when he left town, and got himself involved in a scandal or three while he was here.  Which means the onus was on him to work to mend fences with the team if he really wanted his number retired.  Boggs has been in the Red Sox Hall of Fame for 11 years now, so it's not like he's been completely forgotten or discarded by the current owners.  

 
Nate Archibald played less than half of his career with the Celtics, and while he was still a good player, it was all post-peak.  If he's the best you can come up with, that supports my argument that Boggs has no peer in being denied a retired number.
 
Why was Boggs a self-absorbed jerk?   Because he was aware of his stats?  Did he ever interrupt a press conference out of anger that one of his hit was changed to a base on an error (or whatever it was that Ortiz was pissed about)?  Or was it because his marital infidelity hit the papers (just like Ortiz, Varitek, Francona, etc.)?  If the media understood how good he was while he was here (they used to say that he walked too much), or if the current admin did something one in a while to let the current fans know how good he was, he'd be plenty appreciated around here.

 

[LahoudOrBillyC]

I would retire 21, 23 (Tiant), 24 (Evans), 26, with 15 and 34 on deck.
 
The Red Sox are far too stingy. 

 

[Bigpupp]

If Boggs didn't want to have anything to do with the Red Sox after he left, then why should the Red Sox want to have anything to do with Boggs?

 

[moondog80]

If Boggs didn't want to have anything to do with the Red Sox after he left, then why should the Red Sox want to have anything to do with Boggs?

 
 
When did Boggs indicate such a stance?

 

[Bigpupp]

 
 
When did Boggs indicate such a stance?

When he picked a TB hat for the HoF

 

[strek1]

Miller Lite owns Boggs' historical rights. Maybe he'll get a case of beer named after him.

 Would that include any mention of MARGO?

 

[Papelbon's Poutine]

 
Nate Archibald played less than half of his career with the Celtics, and while he was still a good player, it was all post-peak.  If he's the best you can come up with, that supports my argument that Boggs has no peer in being denied a retired number.
 
Why was Boggs a self-absorbed jerk?  Because he was aware of his stats?   Did he ever interrupt a press conference out of anger that one of his hit was changed to a base on an error (or whatever it was that Ortiz was pissed about)?  Or was it because his marital infidelity hit the papers (just like Ortiz, Varitek, Francona, etc.)?   If the media understood how good he was while he was here, or if the current admin did something one in a while to let the current fans know how good he was, he'd be plenty appreciated around here.

Serious question, how old are you? Because it might explain the disconnect on the first bolded. Thats not trying be condescending, that's a legit question because of you were of a certain age, you might not have been aware of the experience that was Ware Boggs in its totality.

To the second bolded, while a greater importance on OBP has evolved since he retired, the media knew how good he was. That's how he got 92% of the vote to go into the HoF. The current admin admitted him into the team HoF. They had no reason for animosity towards him. Since then, there's seems to be no relationship between them. To you that says it's the ownerships negligence. To me that says unless he's the center of attention, he's every bit the jerk he seems to be and rubbed them the wrong way or has denied requests to be more a part.

You can take either side of that and that's fair because we don't know either way with certainty. And that's fine. But you can't deny the team ownership is extremely fan savvy and if they thought a significant portion of the fanbase is upset about it, I assure you they would do it, because $.

So I tend to think that their reluctance is based on them not believing he is worthy of it . His stats clearly are. But he's chosen not to associate himself with the franchise. I highly doubt he hasn't been asked to, but even if he wasn't, buy a fucking ticket to a game sometimes. I know I've seen Clemens sitting in the stands. If it means that much and you're not getting any love, insert yourself into the conversation and let the fans sway them if you're really so beloved.

 

[moondog80]

When he picked a TB hat for the HoF

 
His plaque has a Sox cap.  You're referring to a rumor that has never been confirmed.

 

[DanoooME]

Maybe they can take advantage of this to un-retire #4.  Because fuck Joe Cronin

 

[Bigpupp]

 
His plaque has a Sox cap.  You're referring to a rumor that has never been confirmed.

Absolutely, but even if you assume it's only a rumor then where does the rumor start and why has it why become repeated for so long? If he had a great relationship with the Sox then it never gets started to begin with.

I don't have a dog in this fight, so it really doesn't matter to me, but my original point is still that he's basically done nothing to try and endear himself to the Sox since he left.