Red Sox deleted policy on number retirement on their website

[moondog80]

Serious question, how old are you? Because it might explain the disconnect on the first bolded. Thats not trying be condescending, that's a legit question because of you were of a certain age, you might not have been aware of the experience that was Ware Boggs in its totality.

To the second bolded, while a greater importance on OBP has evolved since he retired, the media knew how good he was. That's how he got 92% of the vote to go into the HoF. The current admin admitted him into the team HoF. They had no reason for animosity towards him. Since then, there's seems to be no relationship between them. To you that says it's the ownerships negligence. To me that says unless he's the center of attention, he's every bit the jerk he seems to be and rubbed them the wrong way or has denied requests to be more a part.

You can take either side of that and that's fair because we don't know either way with certainty. And that's fine. But you can't deny the team ownership is extremely fan savvy and if they thought a significant portion of the fanbase is upset about it, I assure you they would do it, because $.

So I tend to think that their reluctance is based on them not believing he is worthy of it . His stats clearly are. But he's chosen not to associate himself with the franchise. I highly doubt he hasn't been asked to, but even if he wasn't, buy a fucking ticket to a game sometimes. I know I've seen Clemens sitting in the stands. If it means that much and you're not getting any love, insert yourself into the conversation and let the fans sway them if you're really so beloved.

 
Old enough to have seen his entire career, and hear the media whine that he was selfish because he walked so much and clogged the basepaths.  I think this is why there is no groundswell of support for him -- lots of people still believe this crap.
 
I think it's quite the leap to say the lack of a relationship with the team=Boggs is a jerk.  What little statements we can find are Boggs saying it would be an honor to have his number retired, and the Red Sox clinging to their policy that became an absurd farce the day they circumvented it in order to bribe Carlton Fisk to request a Red Sox cap for his plaque.  We also know that this has been going on since the day he left, across all owners, presidents, and GMs.  Roger Clemens left in a far bigger huff, is not in the HOF due to steroids, and they still haven't given his number to anyone else.  Rice's number was never given out over the 15 attempts it took him to get into the HOF (14 more than it took Boggs).   Boggs' number has been worn by the following players:
 
Brock Holt (2013-2015)
Scott Podsednik (2012)
Ramiro Mendoza (2003-2004)
Freddy Sanchez (2003)
Lou Merloni (1999-2002)
Rob Stanifer (2000)
Sean Berry (2000)
Orlando Merced (1998)
Chris Snopek (1998)
Aaron Sele (1996-1997)
Alejandro Pena (1995)
Lee Tinsley (1995)
Wes Chamberlain (1994)
 
They crapped all over him from the moment he left, never intended to retire his number.  But it's Boggs' fault for not coming to spring training?
 
EDIT:  Found this article from the Globe two years ago
 

 
Boggs said he and his agent have approached Red Sox CEO Larry Lucchino and principal owner John Henry about a public relations role with the Sox, similar to the one Johnny Pesky had.
“We gave them a number, they gave us a number, and neither number worked,” said Boggs. “It was very time-consuming for not a lot of money.”

 

So it looks like Boggs has in fact reached out, according to him anyway.
 
https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2013/04/09/wade-boggs-buys-into-field-dreams-and-dreams-retired-number-fenway/9KYF46kB1A7DNWsfGkLWIJ/story.html#

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Moondog, is this you?
 
I kid. I kid.
 
But that kind of thing is probably the only way the fans are going to get anything moving as far as Boggs' number goes.  Since he was elected to the Sox HOF in the same year he was inducted into the National HOF, I would assume if they were going to do more than that (like retire his number), they'd have done it then as well.  Every other Hall of Famer that has had his number retired (since they started doing it) had it happen the same summer as he was inducted, including the now two that have been retired under the current ownership.  That leads me to think that the decision was something mutual at the time, and even if one party or the other has changed their mind, no overtures have been made to change the situation since.

 

[moondog80]

So Boggs reached out to the Sox about having a role with the organization, and it didn't happen because they wouldn't pay him enough? I mean, I get it, but the Sox organization doesn't need Wade Boggs. If he wants to be remembered fondly, it's going to take some work on his end. They aren't going to give him a blank check and beg him to come back.

  That's one way to read it.  Another is that they gave him an offer they knew he'd refuse.

 

[lexrageorge]

 
Old enough to have seen his entire career, and hear the media whine that he was selfish because he walked so much and clogged the basepaths.  I think this is why there is no groundswell of support for him -- lots of people still believe this crap.
 
I think it's quite the leap to say the lack of a relationship with the team=Boggs is a jerk.  What little statements we can find are Boggs saying it would be an honor to have his number retired, and the Red Sox clinging to their policy that became an absurd farce the day they circumvented it in order to bribe Carlton Fisk to request a Red Sox cap for his plaque.  We also know that this has been going on since the day he left, across all owners, presidents, and GMs.  Roger Clemens left in a far bigger huff, is not in the HOF due to steroids, and they still haven't given his number to anyone else.  Rice's number was never given out over the 15 attempts it took him to get into the HOF (14 more than it took Boggs).   Boggs' number has been worn by the following players:
 
Brock Holt (2013-2015)
Scott Podsednik (2012)
Ramiro Mendoza (2003-2004)
Freddy Sanchez (2003)
Lou Merloni (1999-2002)
Rob Stanifer (2000)
Sean Berry (2000)
Orlando Merced (1998)
Chris Snopek (1998)
Aaron Sele (1996-1997)
Alejandro Pena (1995)
Lee Tinsley (1995)
Wes Chamberlain (1994)
 
They crapped all over him from the moment he left, never intended to retire his number.  But it's Boggs' fault for not coming to spring training?
 
EDIT:  Found this article from the Globe two years ago
 

 

So it looks like Boggs has in fact reached out, according to him anyway.
 
https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2013/04/09/wade-boggs-buys-into-field-dreams-and-dreams-retired-number-fenway/9KYF46kB1A7DNWsfGkLWIJ/story.html#

The bolded is nonsense.  
 
The prior administration (Duquette and Harrington) simply decided not to give him a contract.  They hardly crapped all over him. 
 
The Henry/Lucchino administration admitted Boggs into the Red Sox HoF.  It appears they were at least talking with Boggs about a position, and the numbers didn't work out.  As they say, stuff happens.  The Sox never said anything about this; it was Boggs that brought it up, and of course he took an indirect swipe at the Sox ownership.  
 
While you may have followed Boggs' career here, you must have forgotten the time that Boggs petitioned the official scorer to change an error to a hit.  The result was that Clemens and Boggs were sniping at each other the rest of the season. 

 

[moondog80]

The bolded is nonsense.  
 
The prior administration (Duquette and Harrington) simply decided not to give him a contract.  They hardly crapped all over him. 
 
The Henry/Lucchino administration admitted Boggs into the Red Sox HoF.  It appears they were at least talking with Boggs about a position, and the numbers didn't work out.  As they say, stuff happens.  The Sox never said anything about this; it was Boggs that brought it up, and of course he took an indirect swipe at the Sox ownership.  
 
While you may have followed Boggs' career here, you must have forgotten the time that Boggs petitioned the official scorer to change an error to a hit.  The result was that Clemens and Boggs were sniping at each other the rest of the season. 

I'm fine with not offering him a contract. It's a business. Crapping on him was offering his number to every scrub who walked in the door. Brock Holt said he didn't request it, they just gave it to him.

And if requesting a scoring change makes him an asshole, he's got plenty of company. You remember a guy named David Ortiz?

 

[Papelbon's Poutine]

 
Old enough to have seen his entire career, and hear the media whine that he was selfish because he walked so much and clogged the basepaths.  I think this is why there is no groundswell of support for him -- lots of people still believe this crap.
 
I think it's quite the leap to say the lack of a relationship with the team=Boggs is a jerk.  What little statements we can find are Boggs saying it would be an honor to have his number retired, and the Red Sox clinging to their policy that became an absurd farce the day they circumvented it in order to bribe Carlton Fisk to request a Red Sox cap for his plaque.  We also know that this has been going on since the day he left, across all owners, presidents, and GMs.  Roger Clemens left in a far bigger huff, is not in the HOF due to steroids, and they still haven't given his number to anyone else.  Rice's number was never given out over the 15 attempts it took him to get into the HOF (14 more than it took Boggs).   Boggs' number has been worn by the following players:
 
Brock Holt (2013-2015)
Scott Podsednik (2012)
Ramiro Mendoza (2003-2004)
Freddy Sanchez (2003)
Lou Merloni (1999-2002)
Rob Stanifer (2000)
Sean Berry (2000)
Orlando Merced (1998)
Chris Snopek (1998)
Aaron Sele (1996-1997)
Alejandro Pena (1995)
Lee Tinsley (1995)
Wes Chamberlain (1994)
 
They crapped all over him from the moment he left, never intended to retire his number.  But it's Boggs' fault for not coming to spring training?
 
EDIT:  Found this article from the Globe two years ago
 

 
So it looks like Boggs has in fact reached out, according to him anyway.
 
https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2013/04/09/wade-boggs-buys-into-field-dreams-and-dreams-retired-number-fenway/9KYF46kB1A7DNWsfGkLWIJ/story.html#

Cool, so you can't answer a direct question that actually has relevance. Nor can you see that Boggs reaching out for a job in PR (to basically glad hand fans, so essentially an appearance fee) and then haggling over his salary might be an example of him being a prick. But it really means a lot to him and it's all the Sox fault.

I think I found the note Harrington left in his desk...

JWH-

Thanks for buying the club.

Couple things:

- Keys to the executive bathroom are taped under the desk; handle sticks, just jiggle them.
- Your secretary is name Doris. Her birthday is June 12th. She likes tulips.
- AC sucks in here, old building. You probably want to build a new one, you'll never make money here.
- Please remember to fuck over Boggs, it was a condition of your purchase agreement. Don't ever forget the horse ride!

You'll love Grady though! Thanks again!

- JH

Got it.

 

[lexrageorge]

I'm fine with not offering him a contract. It's a business. Crapping on him was offering his number to every scrub who walked in the door. Brock Holt said he didn't request it, they just gave it to him.

And if requesting a scoring change makes him an asshole, he's got plenty of company. You remember a guy named David Ortiz?

I get the fact that you believe that Boggs should have his number retired.  That's fine; it's certainly a topic worthy of discussion.  I'm not going to dispute his on field accomplishments.  
 
And Boggs was hardly the only player to leave less popular with the fan base than when he arrived.  We all want guys to go out like Jeter, Mariano, Yaz, and The Kid.  But few players do.  And I would agree with you that that fact alone should not have any bearing on whether his number should be retired.  
 
 I will stand by my statement that the reasons for his unpopularity had little to do with the fact he walked a lot, but instead had a lot to do with his general behavior and attitude.  He certainly didn't go out of his way to protect his brand with the local fans.  It was a lot different than Ortiz, Nomar, Fisk, etc.  It's a very subjective evaluation, but it's there nonetheless.  He had the off field baggage to go along, and that mattered when it came to his reputation around these parts.  At the same time, he didn't punch the team's traveling secretary, nor did he take himself out of the lineup with a fake knee injury.  And I'm not sure what he thought of Popeye's (don't think they were around locally when Boggs played here).  
 
But where I cannot agree with you is the concept that this particular ownership team has treated him poorly, or that they owe him something better, or that they are deliberately crapping on him due to some petty vendetta.  The answer is likely far simpler:  they just don't believe it's necessary.  He's been honored by the team already; his records are still there for all to see.  And his plaque is in Cooperstown.  

 

[moondog80]

Cool, so you can't answer a direct question that actually has relevance.

I said that I was old enough to remember his entire career, you need more specificity than that? Should I scan my birth certificate?

 

[Papelbon's Poutine]

I said that I was old enough to remember his entire career, you need more specificity than that? Should I scan my birth certificate?

Typing two digits would suffice.

Just being cognizant of him playing doesn't really lend much credibility to your recollection of the man's legacy. But you're pretty much answering my question by refusing to anyway.

 

[moondog80]

 

Typing two digits would suffice.

Just being cognizant of him playing doesn't really lend much credibility to your recollection of the man's legacy. But you're pretty much answering my question by refusing to anyway.

 
 
I'm 42.  Now please, continue to cast judgement.  

 

[Papelbon's Poutine]

 
 
 
I'm 42.  Now please, continue to cast judgement.  

See, now that wasn't hard.

I'm not judging you on your age, I'm saying that age, where you lived, how much you followed the press in a non digital age, was your dad a big Boggs guy, etc, might be coloring your judgment.

You're clearly a big Boggs guy and that's great. He was a hell of a player. As many here have stated, he certainly has the numbers to deserve it. But no, he was not victim of the ownership or the media. He was a prick that caused clubhouse drama, went on national TV to discuss his affair which landed him on the cover of SI (in a pretty provincial region when that kind of thing was not so easily overlooked) and he's seemingly continued to be one.

Most everyone else is saying it's because of his personality, fan appreciation for him that is different than yours and his lack of connection with the franchise. Your main thesis is that two ownerships, one of which didn't buy the team until a decade after he last wore the uniform, had it out for him. It's irrational unless you can give us a reason other than the fact he rode a horse in Yankee stadium.

 

[Papelbon's Poutine]

Wade Boggs already owns a piece of the Field of Dreams. But he still dreams that the Red Sox will ease his pain and retire his No. 26 at Fenway Park.

“It would be nice,” said Boggs, 54, who is currently the assistant baseball coach of the Wharton High School Wildcats here, wearing pinstripes. “Am I bitter? I thought when I wore a Boston hat in the Hall of Fame I’d be up there.

“It’s been eight years now. I used to be bitter. But I think those days are over. Was I bitter? Absolutely.”

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/04/10/wade-boggs-wants-his-number-retired-by-the-red-sox/

 

[Jim Ed Rice in HOF]

And if requesting a scoring change makes him an asshole, he's got plenty of company. You remember a guy named David Ortiz?

To clarify this point, it was an error Boggs made in the field that he got changed to a hit when Clemens was pitching. Here's a link to an article about it.
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/247859/CLEMENS-MAD-AT-BOGGS-OVER-SCORING-CHANGE.html?pg=all&ref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F

 

[Kilgore A. Trout]

There's no denying Boggs was treated unfairly in the media when he was here.  Honestly he was't even the biggest prick on the team at the time, but you sure wouldn't know it by the way he was written about.  But even if he was, he was also one of the top three best hitters of his era, and a great 3B as well.  He left on a sour note, but that's true of a lot of players in Boston- always has been.  
I don't know why his number hasn't been retired and put up there with the others.  If its some bitterness with the org over the Yankees horse ride or the TB cap thing, or they just don't like him, I couldn't say.  What I can say is that there is no reason it shouldn't be up there, and the fact that it isn't is a huge oversight of some kind.  Though also not a big deal in the grand scheme of things either.  They should do it.

 

[moondog80]

To clarify this point, it was an error Boggs made in the field that he got changed to a hit when Clemens was pitching. Here's a link to an article about it.
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/247859/CLEMENS-MAD-AT-BOGGS-OVER-SCORING-CHANGE.html?pg=all&ref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F

I get the point here, but if concern about his statistical record is what drove Boggs to be so great, I can live with this. It's not like this impacted the game in any way. And it's OK for Clemens to worry about personal glory? Yeah, he was gong for a Cy Young, but it's pretty well documented that Boggs very proud of how hard he worked to finally earn gold gloves.

 

[moondog80]

 
 
But where I cannot agree with you is the concept that this particular ownership team has treated him poorly, or that they owe him something better, or that they are deliberately crapping on him due to some petty vendetta.  The answer is likely far simpler:  they just don't believe it's necessary.  He's been honored by the team already; his records are still there for all to see.  And his plaque is in Cooperstown.  

 
I've gone on quite a bit, so this will be my last word for a while:
 
Wade Boggs far exceeds the standards set by every single team in every single sport for having his number retired.  If you were to rank all the players with retired numbers in order of how much they "deserve" it, he would certainly be in the upper half of that list, probably the top quarter (I have not simply pulled that out of thin air; Boggs ranks 26jh in WAR amongst HOF hitters, and there about 150 hitters in the HOF, and of course many retired numbers who are not even in the HOF).  If there is a player whose number is not retired with a resume that even approaches Boggs', I am not aware of him (for the overly pedantic among us, let's say we restrict that to teams who actually retire numbers, which I think is a very modest qualifier).  So why not?  If it's acrimony with the front office, well, it must be one hell of a situation to justify such a stance.  Surely there have been players who didn't get along with the bosses but still had their number retired.  Because, you know, it's about honoring greatness.  The Sox are still holding back 21, and Clemens left with such bitterness and saw so much controversy that Boggs looks like a saint by comparison (granted, Clemens was a superior player).  I dunno.  I hope the answer is they just haven't gotten around to it, that here was no urgency when they were selling out anyway..  Fisk forced their hand with HOF plaque thing but Boggs had no such leverage, Pesky died, and Pedro and Rice had jobs with the team when they got into the HOF.  I doubt it's that simple though.  They've had 11 years now to get it done, and the sellout streak has been done for a while (so they need a boost).  Whatever the situation, I hope it gets resolved soon.

 

[rundugrun]

 
His plaque has a Sox cap.  You're referring to a rumor that has never been confirmed.

It's clear that Boggs preferred the Rays and did not make an effort to endear himself to the Sox.

From a 2012 article:
If the Red Sox have wanted Boggs to only have eyes for them in retirement, he hasn't been willing to play along. He has appeared at Old Timers' Day at Yankee Stadium and ruffled some feathers among Red Sox fans when he wore a Yankees cap for a celebrity softball game during the 2008 All-Star festivities at old Yankee Stadium.

There was also some speculation that he was considering wearing a Rays cap on his Hall of Fame plaque because former Rays owner Vince Naimoli was willing to pay him $1 million if he did. Boggs claims that such an offer was untrue. But during Saturday's broadcast on NESN, he referred to the Rays as "we" and the Red Sox as "you guys" during a rambling third-inning guest appearance in the booth.

 

[moondog80]

I know I said i was done, but something occurred to me.
 
If you look at look at the list I posted earlier, the Sox gave out Boggs' number pretty much every year from when he left until 2004.  Then in 2005, they stopped.  This was the year he was inducted into the HOF.  This is the pattern Fisk followed -- they gave out 27 for years but then stopped when he was inducted into the HOF   In Boggs' case, his number was not retired, but nobody wore 26 for 7 years.   That can't be a coincidence -- clearly they were holding it back once he was inducted.  But then in 2012, they issue it to Brock Holt -- he has said he didn't ask for it, they just gave it to him.  So what changed?  Maybe there was some major falling out behind the scenes.  But my theory is that Theo left.  He had an eye on retiring the number, and while it didn't actually happen, he was able to withhold issuing 26 to anyone.  Then he left in the fall of 2011, and Cherrington either didn't have the pull or didn't care enough to continue reserving it.

 

[LahoudOrBillyC]

The problem with these situations is that if there was a problem the Red Sox pretty much have to keep it to themselves while Boggs can say whatever he wants.

My guess is that it is his number will be retired soon and this stuff will be lost to history.

 

[threecy]

The prior administration (Duquette and Harrington) simply decided not to give him a contract. 

1)  Duquette wasn't with the Red Sox yet.
2)  The Red Sox reportedly offered a 2 year contract, but Boggs wanted 3 years (which the Yankees then gave him).

 

[Buffalo Head]

Fuck this guy
 
http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/13176537/wade-boggs-putting-3000th-hit-fishing-boat-auction-block
 
Boggs said Red Sox president Larry Lucchino told his agent, Alan Nero, that the team wouldn't retire his No. 26 because he played for the Yankees.
"All I know is they're retiring someone's number on July 28 who played fewer years than I played for the organization and he went and played for the Mets, who we lost to in 1986," Boggs said.
Boggs is referring to Pedro Martinez, whose number will be retired two days after the pitcher gets enshrined in Cooperstown.

 

[Laser Show]

Fuck this guy
 
http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/13176537/wade-boggs-putting-3000th-hit-fishing-boat-auction-block
 
Boggs said Red Sox president Larry Lucchino told his agent, Alan Nero, that the team wouldn't retire his No. 26 because he played for the Yankees.
"All I know is they're retiring someone's number on July 28 who played fewer years than I played for the organization and he went and played for the Mets, who we lost to in 1986," Boggs said.
Boggs is referring to Pedro Martinez, whose number will be retired two days after the pitcher gets enshrined in Cooperstown.

 
I think this is the first time we've heard why it hasn't been retired. I kind of like that, but man that makes Clemens an interesting case, especially since it's pretty clear they plan to do something when he finally gets inducted.
 
Ideally, Boggs should have his number retired, but I'm fine with it not happening. Fuck him if he can't understand why 45 is going up and not 26.
 
And the Mets argument is weak.

 

[HriniakPosterChild]

that makes Clemens an interesting case, especially since it's pretty clear they plan to do something when he finally gets inducted.

 
When he gets inducted?
 
Don't you think he'll be going in at the same time that Palmeiro, McGwire, Sosa and Bonds do? (i.e. Hell will have frozen over.)

 

[Papelbon's Poutine]

 
When he gets inducted?
 
Don't you think he'll be going in at the same time that Palmeiro, McGwire, Sosa and Bonds do? (i.e. Hell will have frozen over.)

Personally, I think Bonds and Clemens will still get in. Those other guys, most likely not, even though I think they should (whole other argument). The reduction to ten years makes it a bit dicier, but eventually I think both do.

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

It's comments like that which help explain why Boggs number isn't retired. Sure he was a great player but few liked him when he was here, and few like him now. You're no Pedro Martinez, Wade. Not even close.

 
Perhaps, but until I hear LL or a Red Sox employee say the Yankee thing, I just am not going to believe it.
 
Or unless I hear someone say it at 31 Flavors.
 
I mean really, "Lucchino told Nero who told Boggs who is telling the writer"???

 

[moondog80]

 
I think this is the first time we've heard why it hasn't been retired. I kind of like that, but man that makes Clemens an interesting case, especially since it's pretty clear they plan to do something when he finally gets inducted.
 
Ideally, Boggs should have his number retired, but I'm fine with it not happening. Fuck him if he can't understand why 45 is going up and not 26.
 
And the Mets argument is weak.

Boggs' argument is weak, but the premise for not inducting him (if that is indeed the case) is weak too.

If you were to list all the silly things said by ball players who nonetheless had their number retired, this would not be in the top 500. I mean, he's not wrong that they're fucking him over. Are we honoring his baseball skill or debate ability?

 

[redsoxstiff]

Dwight Evans, come on down? I would love to see his number retired as well.

Dwight and Luis were and are very special to me...