Ravens game discussion thread

[crystalline]

Quite a few things from the Ravens game bear discussion, from the refs, to the taunting calls, to Brady getting clocked in the head trying to get up.

I'd like to start with the clock management at the end of the game. Why were they kneeling? It seemed like they had forgotten Baltimore had one timeout. In that case, Harbaugh did the right thing by waiting till 3rd down to surprise them. At that point, all the Pats could do was punt and defend the hail Mary, I think. An intentional safety was a bad idea because (1) Balt could have taken a free kick and (2) it made the game winnable with a FG. Is that right? And why were they kneeling?!

 

[riboflav]

How about Baltimore going for the blocked punt when they have a great returner, and then having Jones field the punt with no blockers thus ensuring only time enough for one more play? Harbaugh coached a great game - minus his on-the-field penalty instead of taking a timeout - but this was an inconsistent strategy at the end and made no sense.

 

[Klostrophobic]

I think a blocked punt is more likely to lead to a TD than a punt return. I don't remember last time the Patriots gave up a PR TD.

 

[riboflav]

I think a blocked punt is more likely to lead to a TD than a punt return. I don't remember last time the Patriots gave up a PR TD.

 
Cool. Call a fair catch then.

 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

End of game was just bad. If they run there, it takes longer for the plays to unfold and the refs to spot the ball and they either run out the clock or can take a safety with like two seconds left.

 

[Fishercat]

I believe they knew where the clock stood. I have to think it was a strategic decision. Their interior line was pretty well useless in the run game without Stork and I'm guessing they calculated their odds of getting ten yards on three plays to be pretty low. They could use the outside run to run some more seconds off the clock, but it opens up the possibility of a fumble in dangerous territory. Basically, I'm betting Belichick had the odds of a Jones TD return and/or hail mary pass for the win to be of lesser concern than a potential fumble, since they needed a TD to win. Also, not quite sure how more time didn't tick off on the kneels, but they knew.
 
I think if they were up by six, we would have gotten an intentional safety.
 
As for blocked punt v. return. Part of the issue with a blocked punt in that territory is that it's hardly a TD guarantee. It could be recovered by NE for a safety, go out of bounds completely (for better or for worse), or even intentionally turned into a safety. It's a low enough percentage play as is. I like the PR idea in this situation, since they needed a TD, and a couple 20 yard passes don't do a ton of good there where the extra seconds help a ton.

 

[Jettisoned]

The clock stops after the punt returner is brought down, right?  I don't understand why Jones spent  time and effort running to the sideline when he could have just slid after taking however many yards he could get.  It would have saved 4 or 5 seconds.

 

[ifmanis5]

One whole week of Patriots Are Cheaters coming up.

 

[C4CRVT]

Why was the NE DL so bad in  this game?

 

[Bellhorn]

Quite a few things from the Ravens game bear discussion, from the refs, to the taunting calls, to Brady getting clocked in the head trying to get up.

I'd like to start with the clock management at the end of the game. Why were they kneeling? It seemed like they had forgotten Baltimore had one timeout. In that case, Harbaugh did the right thing by waiting till 3rd down to surprise them. At that point, all the Pats could do was punt and defend the hail Mary, I think. An intentional safety was a bad idea because (1) Balt could have taken a free kick and (2) it made the game winnable with a FG. Is that right? And why were they kneeling?!

They hadn't forgotten about the TO - in his post-game PC McCourty said that the coaches were telling them "one more play" when they went off the field.  And contrary to Al Michaels' confused ramblings on the subject, it really made no difference when Baltimore called the TO.
 
Agree that the safety would probably have been a bad idea given that there were still 14 seconds remaining.  Perhaps I am underestimating how much time can be wasted by having the punter run around in the end zone, but I think there would have been at least a small chance of Baltimore having time for a quick sideline pass followed by Tucker having a shot at a winning kick.  Even in the difficult kicking conditions, I would want no part of that scenario.
 
Agree also that the kneeldowns were problematic.  Some sort of lateral movement along the LoS, going down at first contact in order to avoid any possibility of a fumble, would seem to be preferable.  Even knocking off two more seconds per play would have brought the safety into play on fourth down.

 

[GBrushTWood]

Why was the NE DL so bad in  this game?

 
Great question. I would love to see the SOSH Central analysis on this. My suspicion is that Wilfork was eaten alive by Osemele, Zuttah, and Yanda. This raises another question - when was the last time the Pats won a playoff game after being manhandled up front on both sides of the ball? Maybe the Billy Cundiff shanked FG AFC championship game in 2012?
 
Here's the win probability chart from yesterday's game. Not sure how to embed the image here. 

 

[C4CRVT]

Seemed like there was little tv coverage of the close-ups of the one-on-one matchups of the DL against the BAL OL. some time in the third quarter (?) they showed Wilfork getting double teamed by two pretty sizable fellas on a handful of plays. I'm used to seeing him come off those blocks and explode laterally. Just seemed like none of the DL got off a block all night. 
 
In my quick review, some of the gamethread comments were of the "where's the holding call/hands to the face on THAT??" variety. Seems like getting calls on those sorts of things is kind of a crapshoot. Was there really more of that not getting called than usual?

 

[johnmd20]

The kneeling at the end was a bad idea. It left the game down to the chance of a hail mary. If they ran three times, it would have knocked off at least another 6 seconds off the clock, but probably 8-10 seconds. And, obviously, one first down ends the game.
 
That was a surprise.

 

[ivanvamp]

 
Great question. I would love to see the SOSH Central analysis on this. My suspicion is that Wilfork was eaten alive by Osemele, Zuttah, and Yanda. This raises another question - when was the last time the Pats won a playoff game after being manhandled up front on both sides of the ball? Maybe the Billy Cundiff shanked FG AFC championship game in 2012?
 
Here's the win probability chart from yesterday's game. Not sure how to embed the image here. 

 
They weren't manhandled on the DL in that 2012 game.  In fact, Wilfork was an absolute beast in that game.

 

[Super Nomario]

Seemed like there was little tv coverage of the close-ups of the one-on-one matchups of the DL against the BAL OL. some time in the third quarter (?) they showed Wilfork getting double teamed by two pretty sizable fellas on a handful of plays. I'm used to seeing him come off those blocks and explode laterally. Just seemed like none of the DL got off a block all night. 
 
In my quick review, some of the gamethread comments were of the "where's the holding call/hands to the face on THAT??" variety. Seems like getting calls on those sorts of things is kind of a crapshoot. Was there really more of that not getting called than usual?

The only penalty the refs called on either OL was an ineligible downfield penalty on the Ravens on a busted screen. I suspect that close scrutiny would find plenty of uncalled holding and illegal hands to the face for both teams.

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

Why was the NE DL so bad in  this game?

I thought Wilfork played fine. He was getting doubled a lot. Siliga, on the other hand, was consistently pushed off the line, which is why you saw Branch much more in the second half.

Give Forsett credit. He was very patient last night. The strength of our linebackers is their willingness to fill gaps quickly. Forsett waited our guys out, and then made the appropriate cuts. The gameplan consisted of lots of runs over the tackle. It took advantage of our worst run defender (Jones), and turned a strength into a weakness.

The good news is that not all running backs are so patient, and not all schemes are similarly focused. Guys like Forsett, Moreno, and Charles are poor matchups for this defense. Dallas is probably the only team left whose running game matches up poorly for the Patriots

Edit: damn auto correct

 

[Mooch]

I seem to remember Brady delaying his first kneel down for a second or two. If he had bled a bit more clock on those plays, they could have avoided the punt by having Brady roll out of the pocket on fourth down and fire a high ball down the side line out of bounds to kill the rest of the clock. I thought for sure that would be the game plan after the INT.

 

[Mooch]

I thought Wolford played fine. He was getting doubled a lot. Siliga, on the other hand, was consistently pushed off the line.
Give Forsett credit. He was very patient last night. The strength of our linebackers is their willingness to fill gaps quickly. Forsett waited our guys out, and then made the appropriate cuts. The gameplan consisted of lots of runs over the tackle. It took advantage of our worst run defender (Jones), and turned a strength into a weakness.
The good news is that not all running backs are so patient, and not all schemes are similarly focused. Guys like Forsett, Moreno, and Charles are poor matchups for this defense. Dallas is probably the only team left whose running game matches up poorly for the Patriots

Would like to see someone break this down but I saw a lot of Ravens lineman cut blocking, then throwing up legs and hands to trip Pats defenders jumping over them just as Forsett hit the holes. I know that happened to Vince all game long.

 

[PedrosRedGlove]

The kneeling at the end was a bad idea. It left the game down to the chance of a hail mary. If they ran three times, it would have knocked off at least another 6 seconds off the clock, but probably 8-10 seconds. And, obviously, one first down ends the game.
 
That was a surprise.

I think this all comes down to the running game. They were so abused in the first half that Bill and McDaniels decided it wasn't even worth it to attempt a hand off in the 2nd half. Besides the possibility of a fumble, I think they were worried about potentially getting pinned back farther. I thought it was a bad idea at the time, but it does seem to mitigate the risks of the situation.

 

[johnmd20]

I seem to remember Brady delaying his first kneel down for a second or two. If he had bled a bit more clock on those plays, they could have avoided the punt by having Brady roll out of the pocket on fourth down and fire a high ball down the side line out of bounds to kill the rest of the clock. I thought for sure that would be the game plan after the INT.

 
An unacceptable risk. What happens if the clock stops at 1 second after this 4th down pass? Then the Ravens have the ball on the Patriots 8 yard line.

 

[johnmd20]

I think this all comes down to the running game. They were so abused in the first half that Bill and McDaniels decided it wasn't even worth it to attempt a hand off in the 2nd half. Besides the possibility of a fumble, I think they were worried about potentially getting pinned back farther. I thought it was a bad idea at the time, but it does seem to mitigate the risks of the situation.

 
I am assuming it's the risk of the fumble more than being pinned back, as kneeling guarantees to pin you back.

 

[Dollar]

 
An unacceptable risk. What happens if the clock stops at 1 second after this 4th down pass? Then the Ravens have the ball on the Patriots 8 yard line.

Yeah, that's why you would take a safety on that play. Give the Ravens two points, then give yourself better field position to punt the ball with only a few seconds left.

But then a Ravens fair catch free kick would win the game, so I'm okay with how the Pats handled it.

 

[Mooch]

An unacceptable risk. What happens if the clock stops at 1 second after this 4th down pass? Then the Ravens have the ball on the Patriots 8 yard line.

You can't do it with 14 seconds. I've seen it with approx 5 seconds left before and it works just fine. Would be a safer play than punting to an all world returner for sure.

 

[Saints Rest]

What part of this scenario doesn't work?
Part 1, 4th down, 14 seconds left: snap the ball to Edelman with max protection (10 blockers against 11 rushers) and let him run around the end zone until he is about to be tackled at which point, he steps over the back line for the safety. Net time used: maybe 8 seconds?
Part 2, Safety kick: use Ghost, not Allen, and have him kick a long line drive that puts the ball on the ground, so no fair catch, maybe it bounces for a bit, maybe Balt tries to grab it and run. Maybe all time is used up. Worst case, the Ravens end up with the ball somewhere around there own 30.

What am I missing?

 

[Mooch]

I wouldn't want Ghost on a free kick that's like a punt. If you free kick there with 5 seconds left and its a shank, you give the Ravens a shot at a game winning Field Goal.

 

[Tony C]

Yeah I thought both in running out the click and on not going for it on 4th the Pats really lacked imagination ..

 

[staz]

 I don't understand why Jones spent  time and effort running to the sideline when he could have just slid after taking however many yards he could get.  It would have saved 4 or 5 seconds.

 
 

Some sort of lateral movement along the LoS, going down at first contact in order to avoid any possibility of a fumble, would seem to be preferable.  Even knocking off two more seconds per play would have brought the safety into play on fourth down.

 
These 2 points effectively cancelled each other out. Thankfully. The Boston Sports Armageddon was avoided.

 

[Super Nomario]

Yeah I thought both in running out the click and on not going for it on 4th the Pats really lacked imagination ..

When would they have gone for it on 4th that you would have wanted them to? Maybe from the Balt 37, but that was 4th-and-10. Every other situation was an obvious punt.

 

[EddieYost]

I wouldn't want Ghost on a free kick that's like a punt. If you free kick there with 5 seconds left and its a shank, you give the Ravens a shot at a game winning Field Goal.

I thought the team kicking after a safety had a choice to kick it with a holder. Am I high?

 

[Mooch]

I thought the team kicking after a safety had a choice to kick it with a holder. Am I high?

You are correct. You can't use a tee but you can use a holder. Still, not sure I'd take the chance.

 

[EddieYost]

You are correct. You can't use a tee but you can use a holder. Still, not sure I'd take the chance.

Me either. Just saying a squib kick to avoid a fair catch was possible.

 

[staz]

Going into the 3rd down play, knowing BAL was going to burn its last TO after the whistle, why just take a knee? That's what threw me.
 
It's nit-picking at this point, but why not set out one WR, drop back and heave a bomb to his side but out of bounds? That'd burn 6 more seconds.

 

[dcmissle]

I thought Wilfork played fine. He was getting doubled a lot. Siliga, on the other hand, was consistently pushed off the line, which is why you saw Branch much more in the second half.

Give Forsett credit. He was very patient last night. The strength of our linebackers is their willingness to fill gaps quickly. Forsett waited our guys out, and then made the appropriate cuts. The gameplan consisted of lots of runs over the tackle. It took advantage of our worst run defender (Jones), and turned a strength into a weakness.

The good news is that not all running backs are so patient, and not all schemes are similarly focused. Guys like Forsett, Moreno, and Charles are poor matchups for this defense. Dallas is probably the only team left whose running game matches up poorly for the Patriots

Edit: damn auto correct

A hope last night was an aberration because dealing with M Lynch and R Wilson seems right now like a nightmare

 

[Brohamer of the Gods]

Going into the 3rd down play, knowing BAL was going to burn its last TO after the whistle, why just take a knee? That's what threw me.
 
It's nit-picking at this point, but why not set out one WR, drop back and heave a bomb to his side but out of bounds? That'd burn 6 more seconds.

That would let Baltimore keep their final time out, which might give them the chance to run one more play if not enough time is run off on the pass. Plus always a chance of something going wrong on the play, so probably a wash there.

 

[Toe Nash]

A hope last night was an aberration because dealing with M Lynch and R Wilson seems right now like a nightmare

That was some AFC Championship!
 
I question the Ravens' playcall on the Harmon INT. Yes, you need the TD, but if successful you give the Pats lots of time and they had been moving the ball relatively easily all day. I figured they were going to march it down to the red zone before taking a shot.
 
Why'd the D start out so terrible? Were they playing a zone? It seemed like everyone was WIDE open on the first drive. That was really unacceptable.

 

[DJnVa]

 

Going into the 3rd down play, knowing BAL was going to burn its last TO after the whistle, why just take a knee? That's what threw me.
 
It's nit-picking at this point, but why not set out one WR, drop back and heave a bomb to his side but out of bounds? That'd burn 6 more seconds.

 

 
Because then they wouldn't burn that TO. And then maybe the PR calls a fair catch, they throw a 15 yard pass, call that TO then have something slightly less than a Hail Mary at the end zone.
 
That TO was an asset to Baltimore. You need to make them give that asset up as soon as you can. As I've said elsewhere, I think that was also the original idea behind the Vereen ineligible play--get them to burn a TO.

 

[dynomite]

I'm still trying to process the game, and basically still have nothing constructive to say.
 
That said, in advance of what I can only imagine will be stunning Football Central breakdowns, I would love if people could post links to the best articles and other coverage of the game.
 
1. Mike Reiss's amazing breakdown of the game winning TD throw to LaFell 
 

FOXBOROUGH, Mass. -- With less than six minutes remaining and the Patriots' Super Bowl hopes hanging in the balance at the Ravens' 23-yard line, receiver Brandon LaFell lined up to the far left side and thought, 'This could be it.' Baltimore Ravens cornerback Rashaan Melvinwas pressing him at the line of scrimmage, Tom Brady was in the shotgun, and it seemed like an eternity. 

"He was preaching for so long, I thought he was going to change the play," LaFell recalled of Brady's verbiage at the line of scrimmage. "I'm saying, ‘No! It's man-to-man. Let me go to work.' He had faith in me. He threw a perfect ball." 
 

 
2. SB Nation's breakdown of the ineligible receiver plays, complete with GIFs of the play and the Alabama/LSU play.
 
3. Jackie Mac's game summary
 
What else should we be reading today?

 

[Kull]

The Brady TD run was in many ways the ballgame. Usually he'll throw a risk free ball to somebody even semi-open in the end zone, and if it misses, take the FG. But you could tell that he KNEW a TD was critical, and made his slow motion 10 yard ramble (from where he tucked it and ran, not the LOS). It took so long to get there, that my life flashed before my eyes in the interim. Those 4 points were the final margin, and meant that Flacco would have only needed a FG to win, not a TD on the Harmon interception drive. Huge.
 
I re-watched the game last night and there were so many possible negative turning points the Pats escaped (Just one example: Edelman recovers a fumble that lands behind him when he's the only Pat in a scrum with 6 Ravens? Really?), but to me this was the critical moment where Tom manned up and put the team on his back. Something we saw in his play all the rest of the way.

 

[j44thor]

My big question from yesterday is where was Chandler Jones?  He was lined up against a UDFA rookie tackle and couldn't get to Flacco, not to mention being a liability in the run game.  Many posters in pre-game were confident he was going to destroy Hurst.  What happened?
 
Also I was mercilessly mocked for saying that Brady might have to play the game of his life to win this game.  After leading the team in both rushing and passing and bringing the team back twice from 14pt deficits I'd argue that might have been his top playoff performance given the circumstances (no OL/running game and little defense) and was one play away (Gronk Int) from being easily his best game.

 

[OCST]

I don't have a problem with the way the Patriots played the end of the game. The problems with the intentional safety have been pointed out. Sure, you could have done some kind of weird, Tarkenton-esque run-around thing to eat time, or something strange with the free kick, but then you're asking guys to execute something seldom (or never) done, deep in their own end, in a very high-pressure situation, where one goof costs the season. Punt the ball and let the Ravens execute the one-in-a-hundred play.

 

[Ed Hillel]

I'm not sure if there's video out there, but just in re-watching the game now, it sure looks like Wilfork took a really bad cheapshot at Flacco's knee after the Jamie Collins strip sack that wasn't to be. Flacco fortunately was moving and Wilfork missed, but it could have been really ugly.

 

[dcmissle]

There is that, there is the o-line being thrown around like a rag doll much of the night, and there was incredible fumble luck in the game that I would not bank on continuing. Right call by BB in my book.

14 yards rushing? That might be the most remarkable stat in a game with more than a few of them.

 

[Mystic Merlin]

Agreed, OCST.
 
The intentional safety is, on its face, not a bad play there because you remove the potential for a blocked or mishandled punt.
 
However, the following factors moved me off that option:
 
- The conventional punt should still get off almost every time, since the protection knows the rush is selling out.  It's a high percentage punt with max protect.  When the Pats took a safety in DEN in 2003 to get the free kick, they were backed up at the 1 yard line, which means Walter - the P at the time - had almost no room.  Different situation.
- Jacoby Jones could bust off 30-40 yards in 5-8 seconds, easily.  On the free kick the clock doesn't start running until the receiving team touches it, which is key because there was only 14 seconds left (and like 11-12 if you take the safety).  You could easily see Jones getting them in position for a long FG try to win it.
- The conventional punt has the advantage of giving Jacoby Jones no blocking because the Ravens are selling out for the block.  Deion or Hester in their prime weren't juking 3 free gunners converging together.
- A Hail Mary is an incredibly low percentage play, as scary as it is.

 

[johnmd20]

If they take the safety, they could have burned 8 to 10 seconds off, tho, by running backwards and around. This isn't to say the safety was an awesome idea, because now you lose if the Ravens somehow kick a FG. My only complaint is the three kneels. That would have taken 8-10 seconds more off the clock. 

 

[( . ) ( . ) and (_!_)]

I want to believe that chandler jones hip is still botherin him because that was beyond disappointing. Yes he got held some and yes he got hand to his face at times, but that was an unstaffed rookie that took him out of the game completely. He is a below averse player against the run, if he can't give you pass rush then what's the point of him being on the field?
If it's not from injury then I'm just about ready to close the book on him in regards to a second contract. Hell he jumped offsides on one play and was still easily taken out of the play.

Not mixing in ayers was baffling to me. Maybe due to his dumb penalty? Was he benched on special teams?

Their lack of commitment to the pass rush (in team building and game planning) will always baffle me.

 

[j44thor]

If they take the safety, they could have burned 8 to 10 seconds off, tho, by running backwards and around. This isn't to say the safety was an awesome idea, because now you lose if the Ravens somehow kick a FG. My only complaint is the three kneels. That would have taken 8-10 seconds more off the clock. 

 
Yeah bizarre they didn't attempt three off tackle runs to Solder's side.  Could have used Hooman and just went right at Suggs 3X with Blount.  I get that they had zero chance at running up the gut especially with the condition of the interior OL but a couple off tackle runs at least burn several more seconds.  Solder/Hooman or Gronk should have been able to get some push on the left side.

 

[Silverdude2167]

There is that, there is the o-line being thrown around like a rag doll much of the night, and there was incredible fumble luck in the game that I would not bank on continuing. Right call by BB in my book.

14 yards rushing? That might be the most remarkable stat in a game with more than a few of them.

The oline had a bad stretch right after Stork went out, but other than that they did a very good job pass protecting. For all the talk about the Ravens front 7 they did very little against the pass. Of the Pats 3 punts, the first one was a bad throw by Brady and also a great catch by Amendola, the one in the second half came after the obvious DPI against Gronk that went uncalled, even the interception Brady had plenty of time.
 
They could not run the ball, but the Ravens did not get a ton of pressure and the tackles played great.

 

[Rook05]

14 yards rushing? That might be the most remarkable stat in a game with more than a few of them.

Particularly considering that they'd have the complete opposite game plan against Indy should they get to play them next week. I think this the single most impressive thing about this team--as BB has said, they guys can win in multiple ways from week to week. DEN has done an impressive job of reinventing itself in December into a run-first team, but I think there are real questions about whether Peyton can light it up if he run game gets stymied. He probably can in 40+ degree weather, but we'd hopefully see some ducks and self-sacking if it's a cold day.

My main concern now is whether the OL injuries limit the Pats flexibility. That said, DEN's switch to heavy running was chiefly to hide a suspect OL, and it's worked wonders for them.

 

[johnmd20]

The oline had a bad stretch right after Stork went out, but other than that they did a very good job pass protecting. For all the talk about the Ravens front 7 they did very little against the pass. Of the Pats 3 punts, the first one was a bad throw by Brady and also a great catch by Amendola, the one in the second half came after the obvious DPI against Gronk that went uncalled, even the interception Brady had plenty of time.
 
They could not run the ball, but the Ravens did not get a ton of pressure and the tackles played great.

 
Come on. They were all over Brady in the first half. He was getting crushed. Yes, the protection was much better in the second half. But that was more because they were quick passing and less because of the protection.

 

[Silverdude2167]

 
Come on. They were all over Brady in the first half. He was getting crushed. Yes, the protection was much better in the second half. But that was more because they were quick passing and less because of the protection.

All after Stork went out. their only two sacks came right after that. Along with the times he was driven into the turf.