Protecting the Shields -- The Nick Cafardo Thread

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geoflin

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"They’ve been buoyed by good turns from Ubaldo Jimenez and Wade Miley"

Good to know Nick thinks Miley has helped Baltimore. He has pitched 29 innings for them with an ERA of 7.14 before today, 5 innings and 4 ER today. It wasn't that hard for me to look it up.
 

ifmanis5

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"They’ve been buoyed by good turns from Ubaldo Jimenez and Wade Miley"

Good to know Nick thinks Miley has helped Baltimore. He has pitched 29 innings for them with an ERA of 7.14 before today, 5 innings and 4 ER today. It wasn't that hard for me to look it up.
Miley lost again today with a terrible line. But hey, he smiles at Nick once in a while in the clubhouse so he must be a good guy.
 

Bigpupp

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Between this and "nobody thought acquiring [insert d-backs new player] was a bad move", it just shows me that the algorithm that's been writing Cafardo's columns needs further tweaking.
 

Sir Lancelotti

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8. Tony La Russa, chief baseball officer, Diamondbacks — That there are rumors about whether La Russa keeps his job in Arizona is amazing. The only thing you need to contemplate is this: Who didn’t think the moves made by the D-Backs were good? Not many. What happened with injuries, especially to A.J. Pollock and Zack Greinke, sunk this team from the start. The fact that Shelby Miller stunk was a complete surprise. Again, nobody thought acquiring Miller from the Braves was a bad move.

Sweet mother of God. Outside of Keri heroically trying to play devil's advocate in the same article where he took a sledgehammer to Larussa I can't recall one positive reaction to this deal from the DBack's perspective.. Sunday Notes at this point is some warped mutation of Rain Man and Mr. Robot, a disturbed man having one sided arguments with himself in an altered constructed reality.

 

CoffeeNerdness

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We love how he takes another dig at the Minnesota GM search by saying the search committee will "spit out" the name Jason McLeod, just like a computer spits out meaningless advanced stats that then get spit out by non-gritty stats nerds. We also notice how he makes a compelling case for Jason McLeod to receive consideration for the GM position, meaning the committee will spit out a relevant candidate. We then weep gently as the author closes the paragraph by reminding us that Minnesota, one of the more traditional teams in baseball, will never be the same. : (
 

Van Everyman

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So Rick Porcello gets 20 wins and Nick can't help but use it as a moment to crap on analytics ... before using them to prove his point:

Don’t care what the analytics folks say, 20 wins is still significant. Sure, Porcello has had the best run support in baseball, but 22 of his 29 starts have been quality starts and the Red Sox are 22-7 in games he has started. He’s pitched into the seventh inning in his last 12 starts and he’s throw seven-innings-plus and allowed three or fewer runs in his last nine starts.
And Nick isn't the only one who feels that way! Witness:

As for the folks who don’t think 20 is a big deal?

“I don’t agree,’’ Price said. “That’s two-thirds of your starts and you’re winning those games and the team is winning those games. That’s huge. That’s the main goal. I pitched really well that year. Any time we needed a big hit we got it. Any time we needed a big defensive play we got it.”

Dombrowski also doesn’t buy the notion that wins are a less significant statistic nowadays.

“I understand that wins are affected by runs scored, by good defense, and all of the things that go into it,’’ he said. “But on the other hand you have a pitcher who is giving you seven or eight innings every time out. He’s not letting the bullpen affect his game. What Rick did was amazing. Like I said, we’re all so happy for him.”
That's quite a screed to rebut a point that I don't think anyone is making.
 

joe dokes

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So Rick Porcello gets 20 wins and Nick can't help but use it as a moment to crap on analytics ... before using them to prove his point:



And Nick isn't the only one who feels that way! Witness:



That's quite a screed to rebut a point that I don't think anyone is making.

Also saw 5 minutes of MLB and Plesac(?) was chortling about Brian Kenny being depressed about a guy winning 20.

Actually, Porcello himself had a reasoned take on 20 wins the other day.

But in his mind, being awarded a win doesn’t necessarily say much about how well you pitched.

“There is a skill to winning games, the ability to shut the other team down once you get a lead,” said Porcello. “So I don’t think wins are completely useless.
“But there are a lot of factors that go into it. A lot has to go right to get a win, and some of that is out of your control.
“There are a lot of statistics that can paint a picture but they don’t always paint the whole picture. That’s kind of how I feel about wins.”
Porcello is much prouder of his 5.50 strikeouts per walk, the best mark in the majors. He also points to a 3.23 earned run average and the 186 innings that he has thrown.
That the Red Sox have won 21 of the games he has started is more meaningful than his personal record of 19-3.
“When you sit through 162 games, you realize that stats aren’t always indicative,” he said. “My job is to execute a pitch the best I can. What happens after that is largely out of my control. If the batter hits a little flare and it falls in, I still achieved what I sat out to achieve.“If you’re pitching deep into games, you’re getting people out. Whether I get the win or not, sometimes that’s not up to me.”
https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/redsox/2016/09/08/any-measure-rick-porcello-having-career-year/9klIVmS6GtpVh1CBcty1cP/story.html
 

joe dokes

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Nick on the offense after Saturday's game (which was pitched by a guy who has been nearly as good for Toronto as Porcello has been for the Sox)::

https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/redsox/2016/09/10/red-sox-offense-feast-famine/z1oQNDzE2bzTsUA6HU15ZM/story.html
Who knows the reasons for this. One thing that happened yesterday morning was the Blue Jays called a players-only meeting designed to light a fire under a team that had lost first place via a 3-6 road trip, and a 13-3 loss to the Red Sox here on Friday night.
The Jays had been struggling at the plate and on defense. While three runs probably didn’t solve all of their problems, the Jays came out with more urgency.
What the fuck is "more urgency"?
Toronto had 6 hits and went 1 for 10 w/RISP. One of their players ran into an out at 3B.
 

Van Everyman

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I mean, I get it. Baseball doesn't have the same mystique it did back in the day when success could be attributed to character and toughness as opposed to quantifiable athletic skills. I understand that it is is probably not as much fun to write about, say, UZR or WAR, when discussing who the MVP should be compared to things like "Should a great player for a last place team win MVP over a lesser player on a first place team?" The latter question is a matter of opinion. It can't be answered, only debated. The former has a very clear answer – using not opinion but facts and data. And, it's maybe a little depressing when you are confronted with the realization that your sports heroes' greatness likely derived far less from who they are as people than their pure athletic prowess.

That said, with a little digging, Nick would realize there's still plenty we don't understand. For instance, that Porcello interview should be an opening for people like Nick. I was fascinated to see how Porcello thinks about things like situational pitching, etc. This is stuff so few players talk about with any articulateness whatsoever. Were he a better journalist, Cafardo would realize that there is a very real mental part of the game of baseball that has largely eluded the data guys to date – and get guys like Porcello and Price to expand on it some. I mean, shit – with all our high profile Carl Crawford-esque flameouts over the years, Boston of all places is the perfect town to try to get to the bottom of this stuff.

But instead it's all pissing in the wind, predicated on "Back when men were men..."
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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Guys, Toronto had a team-only, closed door meeting on Saturday. Of course you are more urgent after that. That's just science.

And BTW, the Cherington blow job on Sunday was excellent. Played up all of the great trades and signings (with the proper tsk-tsk's allotted to the people who hated them last year*), thought it was brilliant that he didn't trade any of the farm system guys for Cole Hamels ** and swept all of the bad trades and signings under the rug ***.

* I wonder if he was looking in the mirror when he ripped the people who did not like the Hanley Ramirez signing. Now Hanley is a "veteran leader" who has "matured" and is the greatest guy on the planet and if we gave him time, we'd have all seen what Nick and Ben knew back then. Which I'm pretty sure was not Cafardo's POV last year.

** Of course, Cafardo was driving the "Anything to Get Hamels" train last year. Week after week after week after week, he kept writing about how the Sox are dropping the ball not giving into Amaro's demands. Now, it's great baseball! BTW, I applaud Cherington not gutting the farm, but at the same time he held on to prospects way too fucking long. That was one of his weaknesses. He thought everyone in the Sox system was going to be Willie Mays or Pedro Martinez.

*** Who gives a shit if the Pawtucket outfield is making a combined $128M, or that Cherington got pantsed for both Lackey and Lester. It can happen to everyone. And that he let Miller go over $1M. Shit happens all the time, you guys.
 

Broda

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Guys, Toronto had a team-only, closed door meeting on Saturday. Of course you are more urgent after that. That's just science.

And BTW, the Cherington blow job on Sunday was excellent. Played up all of the great trades and signings (with the proper tsk-tsk's allotted to the people who hated them last year*), thought it was brilliant that he didn't trade any of the farm system guys for Cole Hamels ** and swept all of the bad trades and signings under the rug ***.

* I wonder if he was looking in the mirror when he ripped the people who did not like the Hanley Ramirez signing. Now Hanley is a "veteran leader" who has "matured" and is the greatest guy on the planet and if we gave him time, we'd have all seen what Nick and Ben knew back then. Which I'm pretty sure was not Cafardo's POV last year.

** Of course, Cafardo was driving the "Anything to Get Hamels" train last year. Week after week after week after week, he kept writing about how the Sox are dropping the ball not giving into Amaro's demands. Now, it's great baseball! BTW, I applaud Cherington not gutting the farm, but at the same time he held on to prospects way too fucking long. That was one of his weaknesses. He thought everyone in the Sox system was going to be Willie Mays or Pedro Martinez.

*** Who gives a shit if the Pawtucket outfield is making a combined $128M, or that Cherington got pantsed for both Lackey and Lester. It can happen to everyone. And that he let Miller go over $1M. Shit happens all the time, you guys.
yeah I wasn't happy with some of that.

Panda is a trainwreck.

Saying that Joe Kelly turning into a decent RP could salvage the Lackey trade is embarrassing.

And not selling high on Marrero and Owens when they could've been key parts of a good SP deal was frustration.

Not to mention he didn't touch Jose Abreu, who was replaced by Rusney and re-signing Napoli despite having the same concerns that caused them to void the 3 year deal in the first place.

And Benny really missed the boat by not selling high on Clay last year. Even getting one guy like Hoffman from TOR could've been the difference in getting a deal for a guy like Sale.
 

Pilgrim

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The media criticism of Hanley last year was more harsh and more personal than anything else I can remember recently. It was really shitty and plenty of people were wondering what the deal was at the time.

If anything, the fans were pretty understanding of the fact that he was hurt and playing out of position.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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The media criticism of Hanley last year was more harsh and more personal than anything else I can remember recently. It was really shitty and plenty of people were wondering what the deal was at the time.

If anything, the fans were pretty understanding of the fact that he was hurt and playing out of position.
Mazz called Hanley a dog literally three days into Spring Training based on nothing except "how he used to be here". Which was what, ten years prior?

And Cafardo was also part of that band saying that Brian Butterfield (I think, not sure) wanted to hit Hanley fungoes one day, but Hanley didn't want to do it. No other explanation (Hanley may have been hurt or something else) but Cafardo went on a pretty lengthy rant about how Hanley doesn't care now that he has money, it's sad when the coaches care more than the player does and pretty much saying that Hanley was a spoiled baby who has a track record of making teams, coaches and managers "look bad". I think that he also brought up that thing that happened in Florida with Fredi Gonzalez to add an exclamation point to his screed.

So for Cafardo to twist this shit around and call it a win for Cherington while admonishing fans to "wait until the contract is done" before passing judgement is such hypocritical bullshit.

Oh yeah, I don't think Cafardo was too keen on Cherington giving Porcello $20M+ per year either, without first seeing if the pitcher could "handle the rigors of Boston". Which isn't the worst take in the world, but save the sanctimonious crap.
 

joe dokes

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By contrast, Pete Abe issued a pretty strong mea culpa on Hanley:
https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/redsox/2016/09/15/hanley-ramirez-proved-wrong-this-season/uSX8vF6VM7L16iVw94q0tJ/story.html

So, yikes, was I ever wrong.
I wrote that the Sox needed to trade Ramirez and kept writing it all winter.
When that didn’t work, I wrote they could at least figure out a way to play him less.
Wrong, wrong, and wrong. There’s wrong, and then there’s aggressively wrong. I was the Michael Phelps of wrong.
 

lexrageorge

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yeah I wasn't happy with some of that.

Panda is a trainwreck.

Saying that Joe Kelly turning into a decent RP could salvage the Lackey trade is embarrassing.

And not selling high on Marrero and Owens when they could've been key parts of a good SP deal was frustration.

Not to mention he didn't touch Jose Abreu, who was replaced by Rusney and re-signing Napoli despite having the same concerns that caused them to void the 3 year deal in the first place.

And Benny really missed the boat by not selling high on Clay last year. Even getting one guy like Hoffman from TOR could've been the difference in getting a deal for a guy like Sale.
Of all the criticisms of Cherington, the bolded is borderline silly. The reality is that neither you nor anyone else has any idea of what the Sox could have got for Marrero or Owens, or what they would have had to throw in to make it so they could get a "good SP deal".

As for Buchholz, it was not at all clear his value was as high as you seem to think.

Cherington had good moves and bad moves, like most any GM. The team's in first, due in no small part to some of Cherington's moves (as well as some of Dombrowski's). But there's about 10 threads on the main board that discuss this.
 

Broda

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Of all the criticisms of Cherington, the bolded is borderline silly. The reality is that neither you nor anyone else has any idea of what the Sox could have got for Marrero or Owens, or what they would have had to throw in to make it so they could get a "good SP deal".

As for Buchholz, it was not at all clear his value was as high as you seem to think.

Cherington had good moves and bad moves, like most any GM. The team's in first, due in no small part to some of Cherington's moves (as well as some of Dombrowski's). But there's about 10 threads on the main board that discuss this.
Both of them were still rather highly rated. Being a good GM means having your own guys scouted well enough to know which ones you should be dealing and selling high on.

Those guys always stood out to me.

But i was never fans of taking them in the first place.
 

Broda

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Yep, and it wasn't showy in the slightest. Made the point that he was incredibly accountable and positive after the error against the Angels that lost the game. Refreshing.
I think a good take (non-writer division, from another message board I was on) was that if the first game the Sox were gonna lose because of Hanley at 1B came in August, you'd have to be very happy with that result.
 

Byrdbrain

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Both of them were still rather highly rated. Being a good GM means having your own guys scouted well enough to know which ones you should be dealing and selling high on.

Those guys always stood out to me.

But i was never fans of taking them in the first place.
It's moved on from borderline silly to totally silly at this point.
There are plenty of things good and bad to say about Cherrington, that he didn't trade two specific prospects is too much.
As was stated you have no idea who he could have traded them for and who if anyone had any interest in them.
It is fascinating that you didn't have them highly rated when they were drafted though.
 

Broda

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It's moved on from borderline silly to totally silly at this point.
There are plenty of things good and bad to say about Cherrington, that he didn't trade two specific prospects is too much.
As was stated you have no idea who he could have traded them for and who if anyone had any interest in them.
It is fascinating that you didn't have them highly rated when they were drafted though.
Marrero was always a 2 tool guy (glove, arm). He wasn't even a good college hitter. And while he wasn't slow, he wasn't a burner either.

Owens was a pretty big project who didn't have the strength that your typical high pick project has.

I cad admit I'm not perfect, the guys I wanted over Marrero and Johnson and even Light were Eflin, Joey Gallo, Daniel Robertson, Shane Watson, Matt Smoral, and Walker Weikel.
 

lexrageorge

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Both of them were still rather highly rated. Being a good GM means having your own guys scouted well enough to know which ones you should be dealing and selling high on.

Those guys always stood out to me.

But i was never fans of taking them in the first place.
Most prospects will wash out. That's true of all teams. The reality is that every single GM will have multiple prospects that will fail to live up to the hype, even the best ones. Again, this particular point of criticism has gotten ridiculous.
 

Broda

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When did this thread go from making fun of Cafardo to Broda? Nick is a proven Jack-Ass, Broda isn't there yet...
When they dont' have anything of substance they do that.

Ben made some good moves, namely Koji, the Porcello contract etc.

But the ones i've listed are flat out awful. Cannot be defended. Only the stuanchest benny apologists would do so.
 

Byrdbrain

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No just no.
First off I don't think there are any staunch apologists for Cherington, just people who are trying to be fair. I know I had no problem with him leaving and having DD come in to take over
There absolutely are some terrible moves he made and no one is defending those.

Where you go too far is when you list not trading Marrero and Owens as key parts for a "good SP" without having any idea if such a deal was possible. The vast majority of first round picks don't pan out and almost none of them are traded in packages for good starting pitching.
It would have been great if he could have done that but holding it against him that he didn't is to put it kindly silly.
 

Broda

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No just no.
First off I don't think there are any staunch apologists for Cherington, just people who are trying to be fair. I know I had no problem with him leaving and having DD come in to take over
There absolutely are some terrible moves he made and no one is defending those.

Where you go too far is when you list not trading Marrero and Owens as key parts for a "good SP" without having any idea if such a deal was possible. The vast majority of first round picks don't pan out and almost none of them are traded in packages for good starting pitching.
It would have been great if he could have done that but holding it against him that he didn't is to put it kindly silly.
Samardzija for one. Any deal for him would've started with Marrero. (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2014/12/trade-notes-tulo-swihart-hamels-marrero-samardzija-swisher-upton.html)

The Mets also wanted him after 2014. To be fair they still haven't found a real solution at SS yet.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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Samardzija for one. Any deal for him would've started with Marrero. (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2014/12/trade-notes-tulo-swihart-hamels-marrero-samardzija-swisher-upton.html)

The Mets also wanted him after 2014. To be fair they still haven't found a real solution at SS yet.
Anytime you're going to cite Cafardo as a rumor source, you should probably pump the breaks. Next why don't you quote Gammons when he said a scout told him he liked Marrero better than Lindor.
 

Byrdbrain

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It's actually perfect that to prove his point he uses a blurb from "Major League Trade Rumors" that uses Cafardo as its source in a thread dedicated to mocking Cafardo.

This keeps getting dumber and I'm done, I apologize to everyone for hijacking a perfectly good thread with this diversion.
 

Humphrey

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Getting back to the thread, Nick touts Buck for Manager of the Year..right as his team is running on fumes at least for the division.
 

joe dokes

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So ... Buck took a team that finished first in the division and now is four games back the year following.

MANAGER OF THE YEAR.

Consistent with his humble ability to get out of the way so that his teams can immediately win the World Series with another manager, as he did with the Yankees and Diamondbacks. (It took Texas 3 years to make the WS 2 years in a row after he left).
 

David Laurila

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"Nobody" thought the Orioles would be any good. Right... Adam Jones, Manny Machado, Chris Davis, Tillman, Hardy, Wieters... they suck! Buck's awesome!
None of the 50 FanGraphs contributors picked the Orioles to win the division or even make it as a wildcard. None of the 30 ESPN writers picked the Orioles to win the division and only two had them as a wildcard. FiveThirtyEight gave the Orioles a 5% chance of winning the division.
 

scottyno

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None of the 50 FanGraphs contributors picked the Orioles to win the division or even make it as a wildcard. None of the 30 ESPN writers picked the Orioles to win the division and only two had them as a wildcard. FiveThirtyEight gave the Orioles a 5% chance of winning the division.
And pecota had them finishing dead last in the entire AL with 72 wins, they've clearly outperformed expectations. Though if we're going based on that the Rangers have probably outperformed by just as much in a more impressive way.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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Well, Buck Showalter is going to have a lot of competition if he wants to win Manager of the Year. In this morning's column, no less than NINE managers should be in the running for MOY. NINE. Sure. Why not.

BTW, if you think that Farrell should get blamed for using Steven Wright as a pinch runner which got him hurt, you can get fucked. At least that's what one scout told Nick (in so many words). And you should praise Farrell for everything that's gone right. EVERYTHING. But don't step to Nick with the bad stuff. Just don't, okay.

Also there is no way that Tony LaRusa and Dave Stewart should be fired from their positions in Arizona. Mistakes were made, but who cares. They were small mistakes. Things like trading half your farm system for Shelby Miller, giving tons of cash to Grienke and having one GM explain to the D'Backs front office that you can't make a trade because it's completely against team rules. That stuff happens to good GMs all the time. Just the other day Brian Cashman tried to sign Kiki Cuyler for the stretch run. Turns out he's been dead for over 100 years! WACKY!

Arnie Beyeler has managed the New Orleans Zephyrs to almost a .500 record! With results like that, maybe he should AL Manager of the Year!

Oh yeah, "Gary Sanchez is special and you should reward special." That's his hot Rookie of the Year take.

And then there's this: "Steve Clevenger, C, Mariners — Duquette traded him to Seattle for Mark Trumbo, and he’s probably glad he did for more than the lopsided nature of the deal. Clevenger was suspended by the Mariners for the rest of the season without pay for his offensive tweets on the rioting in Charlotte. Clevenger apologized for his remarks, but the Mariners organization was appalled and acted quickly to suspend him."

(Emphasis Mine) I'm not sure what side Cafardo is on here. I'm going to assume it's not mine.

Today's column was truly a Tour de Force of bullshit. Like if an alien ever came to Earth and his first question was, "Please show me an example of really, really, really, really stupid baseball notes column and I will spare your planet from total annihilation." This is the column you should show.

Then ask for a ride in his spaceship, because how often is this going to happen?
 

jon abbey

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Heh, Fulmer is leading the league in ERA, is that not special enough? Idiot.
 

soxfan121

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What the hell is he talking about? (I refuse to give this steaming pile a click).
Gary Sanchez is putting up historically good performance in this, his rookie season, and despite not getting a call up until it was basically impossible for him to contend for the award, Sanchez's hitting and defense have been undeniably awesome and probably deserves some consideration after all.

Of course, .COM wrote basically that same thing - without the shitty Nick phrasing - about a month ago but... .COM isn't delivered to youse guys's house on Sunday morning, so its time to self-flagellate by reading Nick's shit I guess.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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Gary Sanchez is putting up historically good performance in this, his rookie season, and despite not getting a call up until it was basically impossible for him to contend for the award, Sanchez's hitting and defense have been undeniably awesome and probably deserves some consideration after all.

Of course, .COM wrote basically that same thing - without the shitty Nick phrasing - about a month ago but... .COM isn't delivered to youse guys's house on Sunday morning, so its time to self-flagellate by reading Nick's shit I guess.
Hey Nick. How's it going?
 

jon abbey

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It is, but Gary Sanchez has to be 2nd. Who else is there? Chris Devenski? Nomar?
I think he is probably a clear second, but just as clearly he's not close to Fulmer (although Fulmer doesn't have a full season either), so if the discussion is about first place and not second, there shouldn't really be a discussion.
 

grimshaw

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OT - but interesting.
Imagine if all three of Trea Turner, Trevor Story, and Gary Sanchez came up at the same time in the same league.
Or if Trea Turner were up for the full season and he was up against Seager.
The rookie talent was stupid good this year.
 

Bleedred

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Guys, Toronto had a team-only, closed door meeting on Saturday. Of course you are more urgent after that. That's just science.

And BTW, the Cherington blow job on Sunday was excellent. Played up all of the great trades and signings (with the proper tsk-tsk's allotted to the people who hated them last year*), thought it was brilliant that he didn't trade any of the farm system guys for Cole Hamels ** and swept all of the bad trades and signings under the rug ***.

* I wonder if he was looking in the mirror when he ripped the people who did not like the Hanley Ramirez signing. Now Hanley is a "veteran leader" who has "matured" and is the greatest guy on the planet and if we gave him time, we'd have all seen what Nick and Ben knew back then. Which I'm pretty sure was not Cafardo's POV last year.
Nick Cafardo re: Hanley Ramirez at the end of last year:

https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/09/29/sending-hanley-ramirez-home-best-for-red-sox/3aOb1xheQYIqi4Bgy12CaK/story.html
 
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