PGA Championship at Bellerive

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Leon Trotsky

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The pile on CP is pretty rough. I'm fine with Tiger being in the mix again, and I kinda like that he is contention, but I don't want him to win. The constant Tiger love is just too much, too all the time.
I find it amazing that barely more than a year ago he was arrested for DUI. Everyone deserves redemption, but you gotta earn it.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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In the Tiger era, there were two challenges for new pros: Learning how to win. And learning how to beat Tiger. Both are/were hard. Both at the same time was really hard. Many of the young players now have gotten the "learning how to win" part out of the way. And they've never had to worry about Tiger. I think they respect him, but, as you suggest, young successful confident pro golfers in their 20s also see a balding 42-year old they can outdrive and I think that lessens some of the fear/intimidation they may have felt if they didn't get to build their game up in Tiger's absence.
The fear/intimidation has lessened, especially the injuries but also as Tiger has dropped the veneer a bit and become more "one of the guys". Pre-injury Tiger I don't think would have ever been considered to be an assistant coach on a Ryder Cup team; he just wasn't that guy, because he considered it an edge.

That being said, these guys have never seen a crowd like that, never seen people flock like that, never seen a crowd have that much energy for their opponent or themselves. I'm not saying I think it breaks Koepka - he certainly has a solid mentality to him of just doing business and I also think the fact he treats it like a job instead of a passion helps with that - but I think it's kind of foolish to think he wouldn't have been shaken by it, at least to the tune of a couple strokes. I think even if Tiger had been in the group directly ahead of him, it would have had an impact. He could hear the roar coming from the next hole, sure, but it's completely different in my opinion. Too bad we didn't get to see.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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BTW, the ladies tour does not get nearly enough respect. They are fucking good and if you enjoy shot making and precision, they put on a clinic.
Any time someone asks me about starting to play and what they should do, I tell them to watch some LPGA first and stop watching PGA. The women are so technically sound I think it puts the right mindset into someone either new or struggling because they see the shit the PGA guys are able to do and it causes bad stuff to happen in their noggin. The ladies on Tour almost all have great tempo, sound fundamentals and serious ability. When I find myself over swinging, I watch myself to remind myself you don't need 110 MPH swing speed to hit the ball as far as is needed for the game I play.
 

Bergs

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The pile on CP is pretty rough.
He's being a bit of an asshole in this thread, creating accusatory false narratives about what other people are saying that are in opposition to their actual posts.

That said, I thought his "Tiger Tiger Tiger" post was pretty funny. The hypersensitivity that followed merits the pile on, imo.
 

E5 Yaz

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If not drinking the Tiger Kool-Aid means I'm going to have my posts willfully misread and called "bullshit" (or worse), it seems an awful lot like people are insisting that I love Tiger (or keep quiet). I'm happy to swim against the tide regarding Tiger, but not against a tsunami. And the nature of the golf discussion at SoSH is that there's barely any discussion if Tiger isn't on the prowl. So what's the point?

I came of golfing age in the 1980s and early 1990s. I grew to love golf then not because I was an elitist, racist prick, but because it was a way to spend time with my (often absent) father, and because professional golf in the 1980s was full of mesmerizing characters. There was real parity between Ballesteros, Norman, Watson, Kite, Strange, Faldo, Lyle, the aging Nicklaus and Floyd, and many others back then, and the run of Masters tournaments from 1986 to 1991 may never be bettered by any six-year run at any major championship for dramatic finishes. 300-yard drives also meant something in the 1980s - that was a massive blow, not the PGA Tour average, and really short hitters like Corey Pavin and Mike Reid could not only survive but also thrive to some extent. (Which matters because of the many wonderful, old school golf courses that have to choose between becoming obsolete and buying up additional land at great expense to add additional length - the game is getting bigger and coarser all the time now.) I read about and thought about golf back then a lot, and I thought I was going to be a golf journalist for a living - and was one for a while. All of this was before Tiger turned pro. And Tiger's first Masters win was the exact opposite of the Masters I loved when I was a teenager between 1986 and 1991, at that age when sport matters most to most people in their lives. Tiger in 1997 was domination, not drama, and it's probably natural that I rebelled against Tiger to some extent. I'd hope, though, that Tiger's ardent fans might try a little harder to understand how someone can massively respect Tiger's career and his current comeback and still find reasons not to root for him.

I know I'm a dinosaur, and few if any SoSHers enjoy golf as I seem to enjoy it - which, again, is perfectly fine by me. So today, after my "Tiger Tiger Tiger" post wasn't received in the mostly jokey manner I'd intended it to be received, I tried to make my peace with that in a valedictory sort of way. But instead, the vitriol I got back...never mind that I disagree with it, it also seemed so un-SoSH-like. Previously, I took a chance and tried to start what I thought would be an interesting discussion about playing by the rules of golf, and that went in a completely different direction (mostly straight back into my face) than I thought it would go. And now my posts today have boomeranged as well. I used to get pretty good feedback about my golf writing, for the most part, but I'm certainly not getting much of that here. Maybe I do just suck at this now. Or maybe I'm just out of step with everyone, like a George HW Bush-era Republican in a room full of Trump supporters. Either way, I don't enjoy being a punching bag.

Quick postscript:

I couldn't stay away from the tournament because I'm a golf fan and watching major championships is what I do. But I mostly wish I hadn't bothered - the internet-only Eleven Sports broadcast here in the UK was truly horrendous, mixing randomly between the CBS commentary feed, the world feed (which I didn't know existed), and the UK commentator team (presenter Dominik Holyer and tour pro Jamie Donaldson, along with a man and a woman on the ground at Bellerive) in a very unsatisfactory way, and apparently the desktop feed crashed just before Koepka made the winning putt, so a lot of people missed the end of the tournament. And the new-look Bellerive wasn't terrible, but the standards I expect of major championship venues are way higher than "not terrible".
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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Reading this thread probably made him feel like a Yankees fan reading a game thread during a Sox-Yankees game. He dislikes Tiger, a sentiment that I can understand if not share. I don't see his post as either bullshit or snobbery, and the instant accusation of racism was uncalled for.
All his posts are bullshit snobbery. I feel bad you read a book of it. To your second point, I agree, I don't think there's anything racists about what he said. Elitist? Yes. There is however an easy bridge to build there, but I'm not going to do it.

Having read his book, it is fair to say that he knows a lot about the game.
Except how many clubs to carry and what constitutes a violation/cheating, apparently.

I meant to ask him about his comment about Bellerive, which made it sound as though he had played the course and found it ordinary. Assuming that to be correct, how many here have played that course? Losing him would be unfortunate.
Why would one assume that to be correct? He lives in Scotland. He dubbed Erin Hills and Chambers Bay "majors worthy", I highly doubt any of those assessments came from more than the first two being links style.
 

FL4WL3SS

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I watch this video more than I'd care to admit, but you want to know why people talk about Tiger so much, even now? Watch this video and remember that Tiger laid off this round and still shot -4 while the rest of the field could barely break par.

Tiger wasn't all about power. Tiger perfected his craft. He was the next iteration of Norman and Faldo. Except this time the game wasn't ready for it.


You're misinformed about Tiger and I'd recommend going back and rewatching what the man was able to do.

We can debate the amount of coverage that Tiger gets, but it's earned.

It's ok to admit when things pass you by, it might be that time for you.
 

Koufax

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My most prized piece of sports memorabilia is a flag made for the pins of that event -- sold in the souvenir shop, no doubt - autographed by Tiger. It was one of his finest events for sure, and has cool numbers -- year 2000, 100th US Open. Shortly thereafter, he stopped giving autographs at events.
 

luckysox

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I love Tiger. I love that he changed the game, from how it's viewed to the equipment it's played with. I love that he champions getting kids involved in the sport - even some with brown skin.

But I hate that he likes Bryson Dechambeau. That guy drives me batty.
 

Dernells Casket n Flagon

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But I hate that he likes Bryson Dechambeau. That guy drives me batty.
Maybe we can change topics then. What's with all the DeChambeau hate? Not calling out just you luckysox, he doesn't seem to be much a fan favorite around here.

I love that he's a physics major that doesn't mind bucking traditional golf equipment and going what he thinks is best in terms of club length and angle.
 

Zomp

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I don't mind Bryson but he's had a few instances where he's been defeated mentally this season and I'm not sure throwing him into the Ryder Cup on European soil is the best way to indoctrinate him.
 

( . ) ( . ) and (_!_)

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Maybe we can change topics then. What's with all the DeChambeau hate? Not calling out just you luckysox, he doesn't seem to be much a fan favorite around here.

I love that he's a physics major that doesn't mind bucking traditional golf equipment and going what he thinks is best in terms of club length and angle.
Was he really a physics major? And wow did he use his physics education to decide that all of his clubs should be the same length? That’s amazing stuff. I wish it would be better publicized. They should make this more well known among golf fans. People would like to hear about these things!
 

Dernells Casket n Flagon

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Was he really a physics major? And wow did he use his physics education to decide that all of his clubs should be the same length? That’s amazing stuff. I wish it would be better publicized. They should make this more well known among golf fans. People would like to hear about these things!
Great to find another Physics fan on the board!
 

cshea

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If people think Spieth’s slow and a whiner, listen to DeChambeau during a round. He’s a thousand times worse. He’ll complain about air density, and is also mystified after every missed putt.

He can be tough to watch, but I find him fascinating. His approach to the game is unique, and it seems to be working. 2 wins, top 25 in OWGR as a 24 year old. He’s butted heads with the governing bodies over the side saddle putting and then using a compass with his green reading book, so there seems to always be something going on with him. Practice range meltdown at Carnoustie, then the on course blowup in the Germany event.
 

Comfortably Lomb

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Maybe we can change topics then. What's with all the DeChambeau hate? Not calling out just you luckysox, he doesn't seem to be much a fan favorite around here.

I love that he's a physics major that doesn't mind bucking traditional golf equipment and going what he thinks is best in terms of club length and angle.
Is he really hated or do people just kind of dislike him because he’s a total blowhard and doesn’t have the weight to back it up? I think he’s more eye-roll worthy than hateable. He’s a bit polarizing but I don’t think enough so (yet?) to be in that Ian Poulter love or hate territory.
 

Average Reds

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Maybe we can change topics then. What's with all the DeChambeau hate? Not calling out just you luckysox, he doesn't seem to be much a fan favorite around here.
Speaking for myself, he reminds me of every entitled, arrogant, preppy asshole I knew growing up. (I mean, "Bryson James Aldrich DeChambeau" sounds like someone who grew up playing golf with personal instructors on the 18 hole layout daddy had built for him in the back yard.) Payne Stewart gave me the same vibe, which is why I never cared for him either.

I love that he's a physics major that doesn't mind bucking traditional golf equipment and going what he thinks is best in terms of club length and angle.
See, the physics stuff is kind of fascinating. And I've always liked golfers who weren't afraid to buck convention and do things their own way.

Maybe if his name was "Mac O'Grady" (even if he had to legally change it to Mac O'Grady, like O'Grady did) and he didn't give off the vibe of coming from extreme wealth I'd probably be a fan.

And yes, I'm aware that my perception is completely unfair. Maybe after learning more about him I'll change my views.
 

PaulinMyrBch

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I watch this video more than I'd care to admit, but you want to know why people talk about Tiger so much, even now? Watch this video and remember that Tiger laid off this round and still shot -4 while the rest of the field could barely break par.

Tiger wasn't all about power. Tiger perfected his craft. He was the next iteration of Norman and Faldo. Except this time the game wasn't ready for it.


You're misinformed about Tiger and I'd recommend going back and rewatching what the man was able to do.

We can debate the amount of coverage that Tiger gets, but it's earned.

It's ok to admit when things pass you by, it might be that time for you.
That's my favorite Tiger tournament. I think he beat or tied the field every day except Saturday when his round was 2nd lowest. Which means he beat 140 guys HTH twice and 70 HTH twice, absent one round by Els.
But my favorite thing to display how committed he was to a tournament game plan, with a 14 stroke lead he hits a 4 iron on 18 tee Sunday because his goal for the final round was to not make a bogey. Everyone was begging for him to let it out and go for it and he plays it as a 3 shot par 5, which he birdied.
 

kenneycb

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IIRC he also claims he kept giving away balls during the final round, so that was the last one in his bag. Whether or not that's true remains to be seen but it's fun to at least think about.
 

FL4WL3SS

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Speaking for myself, he reminds me of every entitled, arrogant, preppy asshole I knew growing up. (I mean, "Bryson James Aldrich DeChambeau" sounds like someone who grew up playing golf with personal instructors on the 18 hole layout daddy had built for him in the back yard.) Payne Stewart gave me the same vibe, which is why I never cared for him either.



See, the physics stuff is kind of fascinating. And I've always liked golfers who weren't afraid to buck convention and do things their own way.

Maybe if his name was "Mac O'Grady" (even if he had to legally change it to Mac O'Grady, like O'Grady did) and he didn't give off the vibe of coming from extreme wealth I'd probably be a fan.

And yes, I'm aware that my perception is completely unfair. Maybe after learning more about him I'll change my views.
I'm a huge AR fan and have been able to look past the Flyers fandom for years, but to go after Payne Stewart? Now you've just gone too far!

I'm just going to pretend you didn't say that.
 

LoweTek

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Payne Stewart gave me the same vibe, which is why I never cared for him either.
Really? Payne Stewart was eventually regarded as one of the nicest people on the tour. Sure, he started out a bit brash and cocky but the game eventually humbled him as it does all of us. I still carry a one-iron because of him. He was a huge charitable cause guy and gave generously of his time here locally. The PGA has an annual award named after him:

The PGA Tour's Payne Stewart Award is given annually to those who respect the traditions of the game, are charitable with their time and money and present themselves in the most professional way through dress and conduct.

In his contemporaries' own words.
 

FL4WL3SS

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By the way, if you haven't had the chance to see the Payne Stewart documentary that GC did on the 15 year anniversary of his US Open win and death, then I would highly recommend checking it out. He was a great dude and family man.
 

Average Reds

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Really? Payne Stewart was eventually regarded as one of the nicest people on the tour. Sure, he started out a bit brash and cocky but the game eventually humbled him as it does all of us. I still carry a one-iron because of him. He was a huge charitable cause guy and gave generously of his time here locally. The PGA has an annual award named after him:

The PGA Tour's Payne Stewart Award is given annually to those who respect the traditions of the game, are charitable with their time and money and present themselves in the most professional way through dress and conduct.

In his contemporaries' own words.
Well, the brash and cocky guy wearing the plus fours and talking about how the Shoal Creek Controversy was "a joke" because "racism is not an issue that concerns players" is the guy I'm talking about.

If he became wiser as he matured, I'm happy to hear it. But no, I wasn't a fan.

Edit: And I don't want to sidetrack the thread with this. I'm not being snarky in saying that I'm glad to hear that he became a man of greater substance as he grew older. But I will admit that I tuned him out after the Shoal Creek stuff, which may have been my loss.
 

LoweTek

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Fair enough AR. I've just never heard anyone speak of Stewart that way before. Racial tone-deafness was pretty common back then, especially in pro golf, especially in the South. Many PGA tour venues in that time either outright disallowed or had no minority members due to barriers to entry. Not to excuse the incident but the man helped a lot of underprivileged kids of all races both well before and after the incident and posthumously. Maybe he figured it out eventually.

...Payne Stewart Family Foundation, a key contributor to Kids Across America, camps that bring 7,500 children from 550 urban centers to Missouri's Table Rock Lake every summer.

When Stewart won the Bay Hill Invitational in Orlando in 1987, he gave the $108,000 first-place check to the Florida Hospital Circle of Friends [community outreach group for the local hospital].

Maybe he just was pissed at the press making a big deal about and chose the wrong words.
 

PaulinMyrBch

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IIRC he also claims he kept giving away balls during the final round, so that was the last one in his bag. Whether or not that's true remains to be seen but it's fun to at least think about.
I’ve heard that. A quick search reveals he was down to his last ball on 18 in round 2. Variety of reasons, but still pretty wild.

(On an ipad, not sure how to hot link)
https://www.seattletimes.com/sports/golf/tiger-woods-almost-ran-out-of-golf-balls-during-2000-us-open-rout-golf/
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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All he would have to do was reload. He could borrow one from his opponent if need be until someone ran out from clubhouse. But yeah, maybe Stevie should have had a tighter grip on inventory.
 

TFP

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All he would have to do was reload. He could borrow one from his opponent if need be until someone ran out from clubhouse. But yeah, maybe Stevie should have had a tighter grip on inventory.
As long as it’s the same brand and model. If his opponent is playing a different model he’s screwed unless they can get some from the clubhouse without “undue delay”, whatever that means.
 

ernieshore

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I love that he's a physics major that doesn't mind bucking traditional golf equipment and going what he thinks is best in terms of club length and angle.
This is how I am. I think he stands out from every other player on tour and the unique personalities in golf make it enjoyable to follow. He's probably not the guy I want to have a beer with, but I jove the notion that he almost thinks he can "perfect" golf through science. It's a crazy, quixotic quest, and even his temper tantrums add to his mad scientist persona. I hope he's a Ryder Cup pick just for the entertainment value.
 

jercra

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As long as it’s the same brand and model. If his opponent is playing a different model he’s screwed unless they can get some from the clubhouse without “undue delay”, whatever that means.
Kind of, but not for Tiger in that tourney.
If a golfer violates the One Ball Rule, they can be penalized in a variety of ways by the tournament organizer. However, the USGA recommends a two-stroke penalty for each hole on which the rule is violated, with a maximum of four penalty strokes. In match play, the USGA recommends a loss of each hole on which the rule is violated, with a maximum of two holes lost.
He could have swapped ball types twice, received the max penalty, and still won comfortably.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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As long as it’s the same brand and model. If his opponent is playing a different model he’s screwed unless they can get some from the clubhouse without “undue delay”, whatever that means.
Ah, good point, as he likely would have had issue as that was the year he switched to the Nike Tour Accuracy and Els wouldn’t have had that in his bag. I guess he could have asked the crowd to throw one back? Haha.
 
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