Pats FA Watch: LGBT Back on a 1-year Deal

SeoulSoxFan

I Want to Hit the World with Rocket Punch
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jun 27, 2006
22,118
A Scud Away from Hell
If Forte still wants too much $ while trying to play for a contender, a few other RBs I'd be interested are Bilal Powell, CJ Spiller, and Fred Jackson.

Fred Jackson is at the very end of his career, but would also be the cheapest. And we all know how much BB loved him. At 34 years old and coming off his worst year as a pro, he may have nothing left in the tank. However, he still caught 66 passes in 2014 and could be a camp option on a minimum veteran contract.

Spiller is not a FA, but he could be a release candidate. He got 13 games in with NO in his first year with the team, but they got better production from Tim Hightower & (ahem) a healthy Travis Cadet. Saints will take a $4.5m cap hit, but may want to get out of the contract earlier than later ($4.65m cap hit in 2018, last contract year). He's certainly been one of my favorite players over the years and am curious how Saints handle his contract.

Out of the three, the most intriguing option is Bilal Powell. I watched pretty much every Jets game this year and he was a revelation. I thought the Jets offense wasn't the same when he was out.

In 2015, he rushed for 313 yards for a 4.5 YPC and (shockingly) made 47 catches for 388 yards. Although Powell is 27 years old, he doesn't have a lot of wear & tear, averaging only 80 carries per year so far. He's a relatively smaller back, at 5'10" and 206 lb (Dion Lewis is 5'8" and 195 lb, while LGBT is 6'0" and 250 lb.)

I'd be thrilled with a "haul" of Sanu and Powell/Forte (although Forte is still at the top of the list, with the value he'll bring back + increasing cap).
 

Dr. Gonzo

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 8, 2010
5,416
Cannon having the 10th largest cap hit on the team currently for next year has to be changed. Either cut him or restructure because his money can certainly be allocated more efficiently. The biggest need on the OL is tackle, too much draft capital spent on the interior to make a splash in free agency, therefore that is where my money would be going.

If you cut Cannon and Vollmer, who is going into the last year of his contract, the team would save close to $6M. The name Mitchell Schwartz has come up here and from Miguel at Pats Cap and I would be curious to see what he would sign for. While Michael Lombardi did not draft him, he would be able to provide insight due to their time together in Cleveland. Lowering Solder's $10M cap figure would help as well and you would then have, with Solder and Schwartz, two relatively young and experienced tackles to go with your young interior lineman. The draft and UDFAs can then provide depth at tackle.

After addressing the tackle situation, the next biggest need is a WR that can be dependable on the outside. LaFell was magnificent two seasons ago and you have to hope he was still injured last year because he flat out sucked and was passed on the depth chart by KeShawn Martin. If LaFell is cut, $2.5M is saved against the cap. I'm just not sure how LaFell is replaced by the names in this free agent market. With the amount of money available this off season any WR with a modicum of success in the league will see a lot of money thrown there way as the FA market at WR is extremely weak. I'd rather have Marvin Jones or Rishard Matthews over Sanu all things being equal.

If Forte is willing to take less than market value, the depth issue at running back is solved as you can draft someone to fill a Blount-like run only role. Having Develin, hopefully, back will help with short yardage situations as well.

Having those three issues addressed will go a long way to addressings the deficinces that appeared at the end of last season: OL issues, no WRs after Edelman/Amendola, and zero threat from the running game. Depth can then be filled in at LB, DL (Having Hicks back would be great), and CB and the obvious extensions for Hightower, Collins, and hopefully Sheard.
 

Super Nomario

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 5, 2000
14,033
Mansfield MA
Cannon having the 10th largest cap hit on the team currently for next year has to be changed. Either cut him or restructure because his money can certainly be allocated more efficiently. The biggest need on the OL is tackle, too much draft capital spent on the interior to make a splash in free agency, therefore that is where my money would be going.

If you cut Cannon and Vollmer, who is going into the last year of his contract, the team would save close to $6M. The name Mitchell Schwartz has come up here and from Miguel at Pats Cap and I would be curious to see what he would sign for. While Michael Lombardi did not draft him, he would be able to provide insight due to their time together in Cleveland. Lowering Solder's $10M cap figure would help as well and you would then have, with Solder and Schwartz, two relatively young and experienced tackles to go with your young interior lineman. The draft and UDFAs can then provide depth at tackle.
I don't understand cutting Vollmer. He's getting up there but he's probably still the best OL on the team. Replacing him with Mitchell Schwartz is a lateral move. I know tackle was a problem at the end of the year, but getting Solder back fixes that for the most part. I don't agree that they've spent "too much draft capital on the interior" - they've used three fourth-round picks. To me, the ideal is drafting swing-type guy who can potentially play inside or outside and can slot in wherever the team needs both short- and long- term.
 

Dr. Gonzo

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 8, 2010
5,416
I don't understand cutting Vollmer. He's getting up there but he's probably still the best OL on the team. Replacing him with Mitchell Schwartz is a lateral move. I know tackle was a problem at the end of the year, but getting Solder back fixes that for the most part. I don't agree that they've spent "too much draft capital on the interior" - they've used three fourth-round picks. To me, the ideal is drafting swing-type guy who can potentially play inside or outside and can slot in wherever the team needs both short- and long- term.
I agree that It is somewhat of a lateral move from a talent perspective but the age and injury history difference is a factor along with Vollmer gone after this upcoming season. Vollmer will be 32 at the beginning of this season while Schwartz will be 27. Vollmer's injury history has included: a broken leg, torn labrum, and the ankle injury at the end of last season along with missed time for a concussion in November.

The alternative, I assume, would be to draft the swing type player you describe and let Vollmer play out the contract? Do you have any prospects that you believe should be targeted?

With the lack of a glaring need in most areas, I would prefer to see the tackle position solidified for this year and going forward. Use the draft to add depth at TE, DL, LB, CB, WR, and RB.
 

Super Nomario

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 5, 2000
14,033
Mansfield MA
I agree that It is somewhat of a lateral move from a talent perspective but the age and injury history difference is a factor along with Vollmer gone after this upcoming season. Vollmer will be 32 at the beginning of this season while Schwartz will be 27. Vollmer's injury history has included: a broken leg, torn labrum, and the ankle injury at the end of last season along with missed time for a concussion in November.

The alternative, I assume, would be to draft the swing type player you describe and let Vollmer play out the contract? Do you have any prospects that you believe should be targeted?

With the lack of a glaring need in most areas, I would prefer to see the tackle position solidified for this year and going forward. Use the draft to add depth at TE, DL, LB, CB, WR, and RB.
I agree Schwartz gets them younger and more durable and provides a long-term solution at RT. However, he's likely to be expensive, he doesn't get them more versatile (he hasn't played LT as far as I can tell; maybe he can, but he hasn't), and he doesn't do anything about depth. They still need to draft or sign another swing tackle if they cut Cannon and Vollmer, because if Solder or Schwartz gets hurt they're turning to Cam Fleming (who played only two snaps in the AFCCG and still managed to give up a sack). They had two problems on the OL in 2015: they had no tackle depth after Solder got hurt, and the interior line play was awful (to the point that they couldn't even pretend they were going to run the ball against above-average DLs). Signing Schwartz doesn't help either of those issues.
 

Hoodie Sleeves

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 24, 2015
1,204
I agree that It is somewhat of a lateral move from a talent perspective but the age and injury history difference is a factor along with Vollmer gone after this upcoming season. Vollmer will be 32 at the beginning of this season while Schwartz will be 27..
Getting 5 years younger isn't really a lateral move, especially when offensive lineman don't tend to age well (there were no starting offensive lineman older than 33 at the start of the NFL year). The expectation at this point should be that Vollmer will be out of the league in the next 3 years or so, and that his play is going to decline going forward. His next injury will probably be his last.

The expectation going forward should be that Schwartz is a much better player, simply because of the aging curves, and injury expectations.
 

BigJimEd

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 4, 2002
4,482
Pats were pretty tight to the cap last season.

Why would teams choose NOT to carry over the full amount? Just for profit/owners pocket? How much are they choosing not to utilize or can they still spend it before the league year ends?
 

pappymojo

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 28, 2010
6,705
Not sure how much this helps.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000638403/article/salarycap-carryover-figures-announced-by-nflpa

It looks like the Broncos elected not to carry over 3 million, the Ram just under 1 million and the Saints 1.4 million.

http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2015/3/2/8134891/nfl-salary-cap-2015-franchise-tag-explained

NFL teams won't actually be working with the exact same salary cap in 2015. Since 2011, teams have been allowed to take unused cap space and apply it to the following season provided they announce the amount before the end of the regular season in progress.
Maybe John Elway's fax machine got jammed up during the season last year.

Related to the salary cap (and sorry if this is the wrong thread), from this link for 2015 the Pats were third from the bottom, 2016 second from the bottom, 2017 right in the middle and 2018 second from the top in terms of salary cap space

http://overthecap.com/salary-cap-space
http://overthecap.com/salary-cap-space
Is that just a reflection of the team preparing for players like Collins Hightower and Butler becoming free agents in the future?
 

pappymojo

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 28, 2010
6,705
UPDATE 11:52 a.m. ET: Per a source with knowledge of the situation, the Broncos left behind $267,088, the Saints forfeited $42,712, and the Rams didn’t carry over $1.245 million.
 

Super Nomario

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 5, 2000
14,033
Mansfield MA
Getting 5 years younger isn't really a lateral move, especially when offensive lineman don't tend to age well (there were no starting offensive lineman older than 33 at the start of the NFL year). The expectation at this point should be that Vollmer will be out of the league in the next 3 years or so, and that his play is going to decline going forward. His next injury will probably be his last.

The expectation going forward should be that Schwartz is a much better player, simply because of the aging curves, and injury expectations.
I don't disagree, but for 2016 that takes you from a bad offensive line with a pretty good right tackle on the decline and little OT depth to a bad offensive line with a pretty good right tackle in his prime and no OT depth. Replacing Vollmer with Schwartz is nice, but it doesn't solve the problem that the OL is bad.

Related to the salary cap (and sorry if this is the wrong thread), from this link for 2015 the Pats were third from the bottom, 2016 second from the bottom, 2017 right in the middle and 2018 second from the top in terms of salary cap space

http://overthecap.com/salary-cap-space
Is that just a reflection of the team preparing for players like Collins Hightower and Butler becoming free agents in the future?
I wouldn't read too much into it - it's just a function of when their current large contracts expire. Brady, Solder, Mayo, Amendola, and Edelman are all up after 2017. Mayo's already gone and they'll either work something out with the other guys or replace them with other guys who make a lot of money.

I recently wrote a piece about cap space for ITP: http://insidethepylon.com/nfl/front-office/2016/02/22/nfl-salary-cap-management/ The worst teams tend to have the most cap space because their draft picks suck and aren't work extending.

 

mascho

Kane is Able
SoSH Member
Nov 30, 2007
14,952
Silver Spring, Maryland
I think rather than a pure second tight end it would be nice to see someone with TE / FB / H-back flexibility. I'm thinking sort of a mix of 2/3 James Develin and 1/3 Aaron Hernandez. Baltimore's Kyle Juszczyk is one example. Mascho wrote about Northwestern's Dan Vitale earlier this year: http://insidethepylon.com/film-study/film-study-u/offense-film-study-u/2015/10/08/cfb-week-6-preview-superback-dan-vitale/; he seems ideal for this role. Gronk's little brother Glenn is another option. A guy like that would only be a modest draft investment but it would add to the multiplicity of the offense in pass protection, power running, and spread passing. They could do a lot of different stuff without switching up personnel.
Yeah, as we were just discussing in the ITP breakroom, I'm picturing an uptempo package of WR (outside, speedy type), Edelman, Gronk, Vitale and Dion Lewis. You can go uptempo and show multiple looks. Go empty, given how Vitale can work in the vertical passing game. Go single back with Lewis at RB. Go singleback with Vitale at RB and Lewis outside. Go twobacks with both Vitale and Lewis in the backfield. One thing about Lewis is that he stood out down in Mobile in pass protection, including standing up Ragland in a blitz pickup drill. That...that's got some possibilities.

I've spent about the past 45 minutes talking myself into this design and scheming up plays. I'm sure it will never happen, but man there are some possibilities there.
 

Auger34

used to be tbb
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2010
10,138
Yeah, as we were just discussing in the ITP breakroom, I'm picturing an uptempo package of WR (outside, speedy type), Edelman, Gronk, Vitale and Dion Lewis. You can go uptempo and show multiple looks. Go empty, given how Vitale can work in the vertical passing game. Go single back with Lewis at RB. Go singleback with Vitale at RB and Lewis outside. Go twobacks with both Vitale and Lewis in the backfield. One thing about Lewis is that he stood out down in Mobile in pass protection, including standing up Ragland in a blitz pickup drill. That...that's got some possibilities.

I've spent about the past 45 minutes talking myself into this design and scheming up plays. I'm sure it will never happen, but man there are some possibilities there.
Don't mean to be a douche here but do you mean Vitale stood up Ragland in a blitz pickup drill? Pretty sure you do but want to make sure I'm not missing that there's a new Lewis out there who's a prospect yuo are watching for the Pats
 

soxhop411

news aggravator
SoSH Member
Dec 4, 2009
46,614
“@Edwerderespn: The #NFL and #NFLPA have agreed that 2016 per-team salary cap will be slightly above $155 million”

Isn't this a bit higher than what was expected?
 

Mooch

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
4,628
Adam Schefter‏@AdamSchefter 24s24 seconds ago

Tom Brady and Patriots reached agreement on 2-year contract extension, tying him to NE through 2019, league sources told @diannaESPN and me.

** I wonder how much cap space that frees up for next year.
 

Valek123

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 13, 2005
988
Upper Valley
I would think this extension, the cap bump, plus the fact there is no 1st round signing bonus nor salary would make the Patriots more aggressive in Free agency this off-season. I don't want to see them back the Brinks truck up to Adalius Thomas again, but I think given this teams needs there is some potential to get more aggressive to keep Brady on his feet for the next few years with proven NFL talent rather than OL draft picks that may or may not produce.
 

Hoodie Sleeves

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 24, 2015
1,204
EIther FA, or they're going to spend big money locking up guys - Jones, Hightower, Collins, etc. There's a lot of talent thats going to walk away in the next couple years.
 

bradmahn

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2010
591
Alan Branch may be a cap casualty. They can save $1.8M by cutting him before June and that figure drops to only $800K if they release him in camp. If that money can be used on a deal for Hicks, I'd rather have him over Branch.

Alternatively, LaFell and Chandler are possible take-'em-to-camp candidates because their cap savings increase with a release during training camp. LaFell is a lock IMO to make it that far at least. Chandler, not so much.

I'd be a fan of designating Chandler a post-June cut and bringing back Ben Watson.
 

Ed Hillel

Wants to be startin somethin
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2007
44,936
Here
Hmmm...




For those on mobile, that is Zo strongly hinting something Mario Williams comes this way.
 

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
SoSH Member
Dec 16, 2010
54,336
It was really tough to get a good read on Brady - he's definitely getting the ball out faster than he was when he was younger - but hes also making a lot more 'dumb' throws in my mind.

Someone asked you about this but I didn't see your answer--how are you quantifying dumb throws when his INT rate is lower than earlier in his career?
 

Ed Hillel

Wants to be startin somethin
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2007
44,936
Here
I'd rather they keep them both, still sign Marvin Jones, and take a 3rd round comp pick when Chandler Jones leaves. Unless someone wants to get stupid for Chandler, in which case go nuts.
 
Last edited:

bradmahn

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2010
591
Alan Branch may be a cap casualty. They can save $1.8M by cutting him before June and that figure drops to only $800K if they release him in camp. If that money can be used on a deal for Hicks, I'd rather have him over Branch.

Alternatively, LaFell and Chandler are possible take-'em-to-camp candidates because their cap savings increase with a release during training camp. LaFell is a lock IMO to make it that far at least. Chandler, not so much.

I'd be a fan of designating Chandler a post-June cut and bringing back Ben Watson.
Just great timing. Perfect.
 

Seels

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
4,990
NH
He's toast. The amount of receivers his age I'd want this team to give more than the training camp invite to are minimal. I mean they could sign him but he'd just be this years Reggie Wayne / Tori Holt / Joey Galloway / Chad Johnson etc etc
 

Harry Hooper

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jan 4, 2002
34,646
BB to FA quarterback, "You'll likely start at least 4 regular season games. Great showcase for you."
 

dbn

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 10, 2007
7,785
La Mancha.
Well, now this team has a whole bunch of needs, and that's before Amendola's inevitable cut/restructure.
To expand on RedO's comment, the Patriots were the favorites to win the Super Bowl most of last season, and despite above-average injuries easily made the final 4, narrowly missed the final 2, and pretty nearly all of their starting offense, defense, and special teams are returning for the upcoming season.

Every team has needs, and most - perhaps all - of the other teams, more so than the Patriots.

Next off-season is the big, big one; unless they extend a lot of their key defensive players before then.
 

jsinger121

@jsinger121
SoSH Member
Jul 25, 2005
17,720
Absolutely. Only going to be 29 years old. $6.31 million cap hit however.
That cap hit is too rich. Unless they can get that number way down I wouldn't trade a pick when you can target someone younger like Dwayne Allen in free agency.
 

chief1

New Member
Aug 10, 2012
147
So Martellus Bennett is seeking a trade. Would he be a fit in NE as a TE2?
I think that would be a good get. I would even go so far as to say that it would be a bigger get than any of the WR's available, and lesson he need dramatically
Oh, and saw this this morning:
Trump, Belichick dine together in Florida
That seals the deal for me! Im voting for Trump. He will restore those draft picks and give TB the medal of freedom!
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

posts way less than 18% useful shit
SoSH Member
Nov 17, 2010
14,520
I actually heard a few weeks ago on a podcast that the Bears were considering releasing him to appease his desire to move. I think that's the only way the Pats land Bennett.