Only God Can Judge Judge

terrynever

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It’s amazing that Judge could fulfill his captain duties during an AB and crush a 462-foot homer seconds later. Even Lou Gehrig wasn’t that good.
Next time, Judge should point to CF and then homer in that direction, a la Babe Ruth in the 1932 World Series.
Babe would have loved Twitter. His agent would handle the typing.
 

Marbleheader

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The whole concept of people being up in arms about players 'cheating' in baseball needs to stop. By the same token, fans burying their heads in the sand and saying 'not my player, he's a saint!' needs to stop as well. Every player tries to find competitive advantages. Baseball is not some bastion of integrity. They're all cheating.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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It’d be pretty odd if the gigantic man coming off a historic offensive season decided to obviously cheat in front of hundreds of thousands of viewers in a meaningless May 6-0 game against a scrub reliever.
Ok. Then it's odd.

It's not a huge deal - although after the Astros bullshit, I think it's fair for everyone to be skeptical (non-Yankee fans) or defensive (Yankee fans).

I have no idea if they were stealing signs from outside the coaches box, the pitcher was tipping his pitches, or if Judge came down with a nervous tick for that one at bat.

What I do know is that his excuse - not reason - was a lie. And he could be lying for the right reasons (he doesn't owe the Blue Jay's shit if their guy is tipping pitches) or wrong reasons. But glancing sideways for half a second for several pitches in a row as the pitcher is starting his windup (and only then)? Yeah. He wasn't doing that, "to see who's chirping".

Doesn't mean Judge should be playing for the Astros or anything.
 

Comfortably Lomb

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The whole concept of people being up in arms about players 'cheating' in baseball needs to stop. By the same token, fans burying their heads in the sand and saying 'not my player, he's a saint!' needs to stop as well. Every player tries to find competitive advantages. Baseball is not some bastion of integrity. They're all cheating.
As they should, because it's how the game is supposed to be played.

Judge rocks. I only hope he wasn't cheating because I'm not interested in hearing the loseriest losers whine about it endlessly.
 

Sad Sam Jones

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On one hand, if a coach is signaling where the catcher is setting up or the pitcher is tipping his pitch, it can be settled with a brushback pitch and everyone moves on instead of whining to the media as if it's some huge scandal. On the other hand, if that is indeed what happened, it's the fault of the catcher/pitcher, not the Yankees. On the third hand, how does one give away that the next pitch will be a hanging slider right over the plate?

Also, if Toronto thinks the problem is the Yankees are cheating, why punish the pitcher and demote him?
 

axx

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I only saw the HR pitch but it looked like Judge was even off balance a little bit.
 

staz

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Ok. Then it's odd.

It's not a huge deal - although after the Astros bullshit, I think it's fair for everyone to be skeptical (non-Yankee fans) or defensive (Yankee fans).

I have no idea if they were stealing signs from outside the coaches box, the pitcher was tipping his pitches, or if Judge came down with a nervous tick for that one at bat.

What I do know is that his excuse - not reason - was a lie. And he could be lying for the right reasons (he doesn't owe the Blue Jay's shit if their guy is tipping pitches) or wrong reasons. But glancing sideways for half a second for several pitches in a row as the pitcher is starting his windup (and only then)? Yeah. He wasn't doing that, "to see who's chirping".

Doesn't mean Judge should be playing for the Astros or anything.
This is exactly where I'm at. Realize your every gesture is captured in 4K and have a better story ready for postgame.
 

Sad Sam Jones

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This is exactly where I'm at. Realize your every gesture is captured in 4K and have a better story ready for postgame.
If he's doing something that's accepted within the game, is the burden still on him to come up with a better story? Is he supposed to tell the world Toronto is telegraphing their pitches or location? That would seem like bad strategy and probably breaking one of those unwritten rules.
 

staz

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If he's doing something that's accepted within the game, is the burden still on him to come up with a better story? Is he supposed to tell the world Toronto is telegraphing their pitches or location? That would seem like bad strategy and probably breaking one of those unwritten rules.
"I was distracted." Done.
 

PC Drunken Friar

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Also I think the part that non-Yankee fans are missing a bit in this situation is that I really can't emphasize enough how hands on Judge has tried to be as captain, I've literally never seen anything like it in MLB. I can't point to specific examples but since the start of spring training, it's been quite clear that he considers himself almost a part of management now in addition to a player, and he does everything he can in that role.

Maybe I notice it more than others because 1) Judge is my favorite player (maybe ever) and 2) I was co-captain of my NCAA title fencing team in college junior and senior seasons, and I did something similar, to the point where the coach of the #2 team in the country (Penn State) told me and my coach after we beat them that I was the team MVP, even though I had just lost 2 of 3 and there were a lot of better fencers than me on the team.
Captain Intangibles 10.0?
 

Murderer's Crow

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So, let me get this straight. Despite pitchcom being used, Judge had to glance at a dugout - which there are also cameras of and seemingly show absolutely nothing - to get a signal from someone on the bench to find out which pitch was coming. But since we know he wasn't able to get pitches from the dugout (pitchcom duh), we're pivoting that the dugout OR the coaches on the baseline are giving him information about the catcher position.

Makes total sense. And I really wish there was a video of the at bat because I was yelling at my TV before Boone got thrown out, then Boone got thrown out on an absurd call, and it makes total sense that the dugout was pissed. But I digress. Judge was just testing out a new way of cheating against a horrible pitcher. In the presence of something that makes total sense, let's first check in on the alternative conspiracies.
 

jon abbey

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Man I can't wait for the Jomboy video.

Also it can't be understated that the atmosphere at this moment of the game was exceptionally crazy, Boone had not only just gotten tossed, he then went even more nuts and argued I think longer and harder than I have ever seen him, he even fucking threw his gum at the ump, Earl Weaver level stuff. Deserved but disgusting, come on man (stay for the Cone comment at the end).

View: https://twitter.com/PitchingNinja/status/1658490405023891456


Anyway, call me naive, I think the thought of cheating here did not even cross Judge's mind until he was asked about it afterwards and then still he had to be asked twice. At this point I think those looks were like a peripheral dirty look that your partner might give you when they want you to shut up while you are talking to other people. They can only hint at it now but there will be hell to pay behind closed doors as soon as possible. Again, I think it will all be more clear once Jomboy presents the full evidence.

Anyway, no matter why he did it, imagine being good enough at hitting to be able to look over like that, refocus on the pitcher, and have the timing to belt a hanger 462 to dead center. Have any of you ever seen anyone do anything like that? It helped that Robinson Cano's dad was on the mound, but still.
 

Murderer's Crow

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Judge just hit another bomb, 450 to center. Not sure where his eyes were a few seconds before the pitch. If I was him, I would look at the dugout every time to mess with Toronto.
 

Adirondack jack

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It seems the most likely story is either Judge told the truth or he was trying to steal the catchers location out of the peripheral using his special-captian-powered-calm eyes. Either way, complete, non-story--game within the game stuff.

Toronto should brush him back if they're worried about it.
 

E5 Yaz

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The nonsense about the Judge story, though, easily overshadows the German story
 

jon abbey

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When Judge hit that massive blast to break a tie in the 8th, on his way around the bases, he pointed out to the outfield and it wasn't clear why, afterwards he said he was giving respect to the bullpen for coming up big after German was tossed. Who does that? That is an example of the captain duties I was talking about, also when interviewed after the game, he shouted out all five relievers who came into the game, in order. Again, unusual behavior for a baseball player, most of whom are necessarily quite focused on their own games.
 

Yaz4Ever

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Holy shit .... how many will he have at 150 games, which will still have him well behind ARod's 166? This guy is an absolute monster. Do we have video of his eyes in the other 99 games? I'm still inclined to believe the glances are nothing for us to focus on. As much as I still dislike the Yankees, I'd be broken hearted to hear he was cheating - especially after last year.
 

jayhoz

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Ok. Then it's odd.

It's not a huge deal - although after the Astros bullshit, I think it's fair for everyone to be skeptical (non-Yankee fans) or defensive (Yankee fans).

I have no idea if they were stealing signs from outside the coaches box, the pitcher was tipping his pitches, or if Judge came down with a nervous tick for that one at bat.

What I do know is that his excuse - not reason - was a lie. And he could be lying for the right reasons (he doesn't owe the Blue Jay's shit if their guy is tipping pitches) or wrong reasons. But glancing sideways for half a second for several pitches in a row as the pitcher is starting his windup (and only then)? Yeah. He wasn't doing that, "to see who's chirping".

Doesn't mean Judge should be playing for the Astros or anything.
Agreed. It is utterly ridiculous to say that you are willing to put your at bat at risk so that you can take notes on your teammates dugout behavior so you can fulfill your captainly duties when you all get back to the clubhouse.

Not cheating. Not a big deal, but an obvious and unbelievable lie.
 
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jon abbey

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Not only is it not against the rules, it’s in the rules very specifically as legal (from that same article).

“During a game, no club personnel may communicate in any manner the opposing team’s signs or pitch Information to a batter, baserunner or coach on the field,” Regulation 1-1(B) states “The only exception to this rule is that a baserunner or coach on the field who identifies an opposing club’s signs or pitch information through his own unaided observation of the pitcher, catcher or opposing team’s dugout may communicate that information to the batter or another on-field coach.”
 

Mr. Stinky Esq.

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Did he tip a meatball slider down right down the middle of the plate?
Isn't it possible (even quite likely) that Jackson was tipping pitches, that the Yankees were trying to relay the information to Judge within the bounds of the rules, and that Judge crushes that pitch with or without the information given that it was a middle-middle meatball slider and all he threw in that AB were sliders? These things are not mutually exclusive.

And if that's how it went down, it's neither cheating nor "dirty". It almost certainly didn't affect the outcome. It's a non-issue. But isn't that probably how it went down?
 

Murderer's Crow

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Isn't it possible (even quite likely) that Jackson was tipping pitches, that the Yankees were trying to relay the information to Judge within the bounds of the rules, and that Judge crushes that pitch with or without the information given that it was a middle-middle meatball slider and all he threw in that AB were sliders? These things are not mutually exclusive.

And if that's how it went down, it's neither cheating nor "dirty". It almost certainly didn't affect the outcome. It's a non-issue. But isn't that probably how it went down?
Possible? Sure. But they created this new signaling system just for Judge and no other batters? After we were already up 6-0? During an at-bat was insane already? And he was looking in the dugout, which is not what Toronto is accusing anyone of...they are arguing that it was the base coaches. So, again. I just don't understand the assumptions being made when there are actual circumstances during that at bat that tie in exactly to what Judge was saying and how he acts.

Anyway, I digress really. Silly and I'm glad he hammered another bomb against them.
 

jon abbey

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Isn't it possible (even quite likely) that Jackson was tipping pitches, that the Yankees were trying to relay the information to Judge within the bounds of the rules, and that Judge crushes that pitch with or without the information given that it was a middle-middle meatball slider and all he threw in that AB were sliders? These things are not mutually exclusive.

And if that's how it went down, it's neither cheating nor "dirty". It almost certainly didn't affect the outcome. It's a non-issue. But isn't that probably how it went down?
Yes, seems pretty clear now that’s what happened. Bauers (a lefty) was up before Judge and there is a screen cap where you can see him look sideways similarly at the third base coach.
 

Murderer's Crow

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Yes, seems pretty clear now that’s what happened. Bauers (a lefty) was up before Judge and there is a screen cap where you can see him look sideways similarly at the third base coach.
I didn't see or know this. Good catch. I change my opinion now. Thanks everyone for listening to me certain about things I'm potentially wrong about :)
 

Van Everyman

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First off, I want to apologize to @jon abbey for never following up on the "Jomboy clip" thing -- yes, I meant the clip of the Jays announcers (and boy, is Buck Martinez's voice actually getting worse as he gets older? That was actually painful to listen to for 3 minutes, I can't imagine watching a whole season of him calling games. Sox fans complained about Mazz's voice last year and, well, Martinez is like 100x worse).

Beyond Judge, I find the whole sign stealing/pitch tipping thing to be exhausting in general. I get that teams want to get "any edge they can" but at this point, with the Yankees/Red Sox/Astros all having been caught going over the line, I'd really love it for teams to just, you know, find other ways to win. It has always felt a little unsportsmanlike to me, even if it's as old as the game itself. I'm not convinced it would meaningfully change any outcomes once it evens out anyway.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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First off, I want to apologize to @jon abbey for never following up on the "Jomboy clip" thing -- yes, I meant the clip of the Jays announcers (and boy, is Buck Martinez's voice actually getting worse as he gets older? That was actually painful to listen to for 3 minutes, I can't imagine watching a whole season of him calling games. Sox fans complained about Mazz's voice last year and, well, Martinez is like 100x worse).

Beyond Judge, I find the whole sign stealing/pitch tipping thing to be exhausting in general. I get that teams want to get "any edge they can" but at this point, with the Yankees/Red Sox/Astros all having been caught going over the line, I'd really love it for teams to just, you know, find other ways to win. It has always felt a little unsportsmanlike to me, even if it's as old as the game itself. I'm not convinced it would meaningfully change any outcomes once it evens out anyway.
I'll push back on this: if the Yankees found a tell, either from the pitcher or the catcher, and used a coach to relay that tell to Judge, then they did absolutely nothing wrong and such actions have been part of baseball for more than 100 years.

I strongly suspect that Judge was looking over at his 1B coach because they found a tell, likely from the catcher's positioning or knee, about pitch location.
 

jayhoz

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I'll push back on this: if the Yankees found a tell, either from the pitcher or the catcher, and used a coach to relay that tell to Judge, then they did absolutely nothing wrong and such actions have been part of baseball for more than 100 years.

I strongly suspect that Judge was looking over at his 1B coach because they found a tell, likely from the catcher's positioning or knee, about pitch location.
The Athletic article suggests that the 1B coach could see the pitch grip in the glove. As to the question of why was Judge the only one to do this....he was the only RHH to face Jay Jackson and therefore the only hitter able to glance over at the 1B coach.

64884
 

Van Everyman

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I'll push back on this: if the Yankees found a tell, either from the pitcher or the catcher, and used a coach to relay that tell to Judge, then they did absolutely nothing wrong and such actions have been part of baseball for more than 100 years.

I strongly suspect that Judge was looking over at his 1B coach because they found a tell, likely from the catcher's positioning or knee, about pitch location.
No, I get that -- I'm just suspect as to how valuable sign-stealing and pitch tipping really is over the long haul. Obviously it can be valuable in the moment--ie, "we saw how Pitcher X was gripping the ball on sliders and got to him for 6+ runs"--but if you assume deciphering this stuff is a capability most teams have and that it's not something that impacts too many pitches or plays per game, I question how much of an advantage it really provides to the team or the game more broadly. And unlike, say, advanced metrics around defensive positioning, there's clearly a temptation to go over the line with this stuff and to break the rules (which is def. unsportsmanlike). So why keep it legal?
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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I'll push back on this: if the Yankees found a tell, either from the pitcher or the catcher, and used a coach to relay that tell to Judge, then they did absolutely nothing wrong and such actions have been part of baseball for more than 100 years.

I strongly suspect that Judge was looking over at his 1B coach because they found a tell, likely from the catcher's positioning or knee, about pitch location.
Exactly this.

I brought up the issue because its obviously news worthy. People got defensive and kind of freaked out. My point was that Judges response was obviously a lie, but...what else could he do? They didn't break the rules, and you definitely don't want to let the Blue Jays know he was tipping his pitches in case you face him again. Judge came up with the best excuse he could on the spot.

The only thing that bothers me a little - mainly because its the Yankees - is that the coaches were standing outside the boxes so they could get a better view of the tell. Thats skirting the line a little, but...really, who gives a shit?

@Murderer's Crow - the first base coach could get the tell and communicate it back to the dugout (offspeed = crossed arms/standing a certain way/etc). Then the dugout could relay it to Judge.
 

cornwalls@6

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No, I get that -- I'm just suspect as to how valuable sign-stealing and pitch tipping really is over the long haul. Obviously it can be valuable in the moment--ie, "we saw how Pitcher X was gripping the ball on sliders and got to him for 6+ runs"--but if you assume deciphering this stuff is a capability most teams have and that it's not something that impacts too many pitches or plays per game, I question how much of an advantage it really provides to the team or the game more broadly. And unlike, say, advanced metrics around defensive positioning, there's clearly a temptation to go over the line with this stuff and to break the rules (which is def. unsportsmanlike). So why keep it legal?
I think it's the line regarding signs and signals that needs to be done away with. In all team sports. Alls fair in love and war, during the game. Not trespassing/spying on a teams practice facility, not stealing playbooks, not hacking emails or other proprietary information. A right of privacy is a reasonable expectation in those situations. But during a game, being played in front of thousands of fans, all equipped now with cameras, and many other media people, also with cameras, expecting signals to be private and sacrosanct seems ridiculous to me. It was the fundamental absurdity of the faux spy gate "scandal". Same with the Astros. In this case, I think the Yankees bench absolutely found a pitch tell, and Judge was looking in to get it. So what? Doing exactly what he/they should be doing.
 

Murderer's Crow

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Exactly this.

I brought up the issue because its obviously news worthy. People got defensive and kind of freaked out. My point was that Judges response was obviously a lie, but...what else could he do? They didn't break the rules, and you definitely don't want to let the Blue Jays know he was tipping his pitches in case you face him again. Judge came up with the best excuse he could on the spot.

The only thing that bothers me a little - mainly because its the Yankees - is that the coaches were standing outside the boxes so they could get a better view of the tell. Thats skirting the line a little, but...really, who gives a shit?

@Murderer's Crow - the first base coach could get the tell and communicate it back to the dugout (offspeed = crossed arms/standing a certain way/etc). Then the dugout could relay it to Judge.
Here's my problem, and I feel like I'm beating a dead horse but whatever.

Jackson threw 21 pitches that inning and it was the first time NY has seen him all year. Maybe they watched video, who knows. But based on at least one above post, we're saying the base coaches were looking at the pitcher glove position out of their box so they could see where his glove was to identify his pitch tipping.

We're saying that by the time Judge got up at bat, with a small sample size of only a few pitches having been throw by Jackson so far, they identified a tell, incorporated a fucking relay system to the dugout, and implemented it with the offense? And they did it with such efficiency and secrecy that nobody can really identify the signals hitters were receiving?

The alternative that it could have been coming from the catcher could be the case, but that ain't what's being discussed by Jackson and the general population. And it's not really easy to see something with the catcher. So, basically, the entire evidence of this is based on Judge's glance. Which we've all already established would be legal for him to do anyway, if he was being relayed signs legally. I just don't get how this is actually a story.
 

kelpapa

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Here's my problem, and I feel like I'm beating a dead horse but whatever.

Jackson threw 21 pitches that inning and it was the first time NY has seen him all year. Maybe they watched video, who knows. But based on at least one above post, we're saying the base coaches were looking at the pitcher glove position out of their box so they could see where his glove was to identify his pitch tipping.

We're saying that by the time Judge got up at bat, with a small sample size of only a few pitches having been throw by Jackson so far, they identified a tell, incorporated a fucking relay system to the dugout, and implemented it with the offense? And they did it with such efficiency and secrecy that nobody can really identify the signals hitters were receiving?

The alternative that it could have been coming from the catcher could be the case, but that ain't what's being discussed by Jackson and the general population. And it's not really easy to see something with the catcher. So, basically, the entire evidence of this is based on Judge's glance. Which we've all already established would be legal for him to do anyway, if he was being relayed signs legally. I just don't get how this is actually a story.
They could see his grip on the ball.
 

Marciano490

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I’m realizing everyone associated with baseball has far better vision than I do. Picking up grips and glances from across the diamond or the announcer’s box is like a superpower.
 

Sad Sam Jones

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It's pretty common to have someone good at picking up a pitcher's (or catcher's) tells as a base coach. If they figure it out, they do one thing with their body for a fastball, another thing with their body for a breaking ball (especially if it's a relief pitcher, "breaking ball" is pretty singular info). Figuring out the tell can be difficult, but relaying the information is pretty simple and instantaneous. It's a basic system that's been in place league-wide for nearly a century-and-a-half. It's on the pitching battery to not allow it to happen, but asking players and coaches to not observe things or to act on those observations would be ridiculous. If coaches are outside their designated areas, tell the umpires to enforce it in real-time.
 

Marciano490

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Shouldn’t teams have someone watching the base coaches and dugouts then? A relay system from base coach to dugout to hitter would seem to be easy to pick up on.
 

mauidano

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Shouldn’t teams have someone watching the base coaches and dugouts then? A relay system from base coach to dugout to hitter would seem to be easy to pick up on.
With the new pitch clock rules, the timing to transfer that information has to be so quick, just don't know how helpful it can really be in real time. And for God's sake, how much help does Judge need? It's so freaking hard to hit a baseball and he's already so good at it.
 

wallypip

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Here's my problem, and I feel like I'm beating a dead horse but whatever.

Jackson threw 21 pitches that inning and it was the first time NY has seen him all year. Maybe they watched video, who knows. But based on at least one above post, we're saying the base coaches were looking at the pitcher glove position out of their box so they could see where his glove was to identify his pitch tipping.

We're saying that by the time Judge got up at bat, with a small sample size of only a few pitches having been throw by Jackson so far, they identified a tell, incorporated a fucking relay system to the dugout, and implemented it with the offense? And they did it with such efficiency and secrecy that nobody can really identify the signals hitters were receiving?

The alternative that it could have been coming from the catcher could be the case, but that ain't what's being discussed by Jackson and the general population. And it's not really easy to see something with the catcher. So, basically, the entire evidence of this is based on Judge's glance. Which we've all already established would be legal for him to do anyway, if he was being relayed signs legally. I just don't get how this is actually a story.
I am insanely bored today, Crow, so I actually watched both the Yankees and Jays broadcast of that inning this afternoon. The crazy thing that I saw is that on the Jays feed, they showed Judge on deck and he was making hand signals to someone either on the bench or down the line. The Jay's announcers even mentioned that it looked like he was double-checking to see what kind of pitch Jackson had just thrown to Bauers. They cut back to him and he did it twice. It's possible the Yankees saw something on tape or advanced scouting picked it up and Chapman signaled when he was able to identify it. It happens all the time.
 

Jace II

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The fact that Judge has led the league in exit velocity every single season since his ROY one (with the exception of the 2020 60 game season, so 6 out of 7 if you count this year) is pretty wild. Yeah, he's a big dude, but that's still a statistical improbability.
 

Marciano490

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The fact that Judge has led the league in exit velocity every single season since his ROY one (with the exception of the 2020 60 game season, so 6 out of 7 if you count this year) is pretty wild. Yeah, he's a big dude, but that's still a statistical improbability.
He came, he saw, he conquered.
 

jon abbey

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Lowest… but still. Didn’t realize he owned them like that wow
38 HRs in 86 games career, that fact and BAL moving their LF wall back before 2022 are not entirely unconnected. :)

I'd say they should walk him even more but he has 68 BBs in those 86 games too, 1.149 OPS.